Orams case press release from ECJ

Krikelin


Joined: 26/03/2009
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 11:25

http://curia.europa.eu/en/actu/communiques/cp09/aff/cp090039en.pdf

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 11:29

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=asoJPS9YV55g&refer=uk

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 11:34

thanks for that!

crack open that champagne, juliet,pike, (cos i know you will be reading this) and m.

i guess those gc lawyers must be busy today,lol.

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 11:43

Full transcript of the decision





http://curia.europa.eu/jurisp/cgi-bin/form.pl?lang=EN&Submit=rechercher&numaff=C-420/07

vincehugo


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 11:45

So what happens now . . another suitcase in another hall?

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 11:54

What happens now vinceghugo?



There is still no way to enforce the outcome of the court in TRNC and demolish or handover anything you dont wish to handover.



Anyone who still has property in EEC countries in the same person's name as their property in TRNC has not thought too clearly about possible consequencies should this outcome have occured.

Dixie Normus


Joined: 22/02/2008
Posts: 820

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 11:58

Must aggree with the outcome, the ole lawyers will be lining their pockets, looks like property buyers in the North have been shafted once again, no doubt the goverment who has no dosh will be bailing the North property buyers out (I dont thing so). sell if theres anyone stupid enogh to buy.



D.N

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 12:10

breezeboy,

think of all those people with uk pensions they also have assets which the uk courts could get their hands on.



another worthless guarantee from the gov here! and it sounds like there is nothing the uk gov can do about it.

Bowman


Joined: 02/05/2007
Posts: 256

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 12:23

What if you have no assets in the Uk or any other EU member state? What if you are the "contractual owner" of a property, but the Kocan is still in the name of a Turkish Cypriot? Am I right in thinking that this ruling would not have been judged the same way if the "defendant" was a Turkish Cypriot? Elko, maybe one for you to answer?

Amber


Joined: 26/09/2008
Posts: 561

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 12:24

What effect will this decision now have on the talks????

Ste65


Joined: 23/03/2009
Posts: 106

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 12:30

I think that will be the end of the talks now. I think the two fingered salute will now be given to the EU.

Probably the borders will be closed off again.



Also I think it will be the end for the property developers and estate agents.



Let's be honest who is going to buy property in the TRNC now? It was Brits mainly hoping to get in early and get a bargain and hope for some kind of settlement so their bargain would have a good chance of increasing in value.



I can't see that happening now and the talks will be finished now in my opinion. Now the north can see what the EU courts can do to people anywhere in the EU I think the north's property boom is completely had the rug pulled from under it's feet for the forseeable future.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 12:31

Don't jump the Gun do you know if anyone has a claim to the land your house is on??

If you don't have your PTP yet or Kocan maybe your builder is the one to start sweating.

muzer


Joined: 02/03/2009
Posts: 68

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 12:31

I think the talks will be over soon TRNC have no money and with this judgement there will be no more Brits buying property.Turkey doesn't want to have nc round it's neck the new government doesn't want a single state.

They will want to go it alone mmm..

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 12:36

oh shit!



DD

punktlich


Joined: 25/12/2008
Posts: 50

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 12:42

The TRNC is a pseudo-state, and a democratic one at that. There are other such unrecognised states, some more successful than others, some recognised by most of the world.



With few exceptions personal status (marriage, divorce...) in an unrecognised state is recognised everywhere. For the rest:



Taiwan. Even China does not deny the validity of acts of the Taiwan government, and all the world recognises Taiwan passports, property deeds and legal documents



Israel. Only Arab and Muslim states, and not all of those, refuse to acknowledge the validity and effectiveness of Israeli law and governmental acts



There is precedent regarding the South African homelands, but this is made moot by their reincorporation into South Africa



Pseudo states like Somaliland, Transdniestria, Abkhazia etc. are of no international economic importance.



So where does this leave the TRNC?



Two Western European countries have limits on land ownership by foreigners: Switzerland and Denmark. (cont'd

Sandcastle


Joined: 16/03/2009
Posts: 215

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 12:53

Dont forget there is plenty of Turkish Cypriot land in the south and it will then work both ways.



Lets see if there will be a case of a Turkish Cypriot doing the same that will hit the papers as much as the Orams case?

punktlich


Joined: 25/12/2008
Posts: 50

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 12:59

(cont'd)



While the NC situation is quite different, leases instead of title deeds might prevent adverse GC judgments, although it remains to be seen if there's enough capital in the NC to finance this. In any case, no person or firm with EU assets is likely to buy or hold NC land except through an opaque entity: a trust, a US LLC, a Turkish company, etc.



International status is quite irrelevant to most citizens and residents of pseudo-states without foreign assets. Even those residents with, say, a UK pension will be safe, so long as they have no other UK assets, if and only if that pension is one of those (a civil service or state pension, and some industrial pensions) that vest in such a way that they are not reachable in bankruptcy. Private pensions may be subject to seizure. http://tinyurl.com/d2dpy5



UK property owned by a debtor is at risk for 5 years after sale: see The Times, Feb. 15, 1992, Weekend Money p. 25. Once sold that is the buyer's problem.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 13:01

Wait for the response from the TRNC Government, that should be interesting!!

zcacmxi


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 388

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 13:03

The root of the problem is:



1) ROC is the internationally recognised government. They can therefore compulsorarily purchase property left in the south from Turkish Cypriots without even asking them, and pretending to pay compensation. The EU will applaud them whilst they do this. They are members of the EU, and so are Greece.



2) TRNC is unrecognised. Therefore the deeds are unrecognised.



The only way forward is to protect assets in the EU and/or hold property in TRNC in different names/trust etc.

punktlich


Joined: 25/12/2008
Posts: 50

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 13:11

(cont'd)



Finally, in virtually all legal systems, and certainly all those worthy of respect, a claimant can not have his cake and eat it. An aggrieved GC owner or heir of land in the North cannot claim twice. If s/he has already been compensated there may be no further damages to claim. Any judgment that would enrich Apostiledes beyond what was lost would be unjust under those norms.



But even a perverse judgment, if entered by default, may be beyond attack: Ackermann v. Levine, a NY case pretty much the law everywhere:

http://www.uniset.ca/other/css/788F2d830.html



It will take many more cases and political interventions before law and practice on exchange property are settled. There must be cases of escheat, where the ROC Government holds the claim; there may otherwise cloudy titles for some land. But the more decades pass while the matter remains unsettled the more GC claimants will become like Palestinians seeking return of Israeli land: pitiable and fruitless.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 13:27

just had a chat with juliet she says : told you so!

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 13:36

Bye Bye Pikey.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 13:41

Tell her she had better keep them she may still need them yet.

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 13:44

Tell her that when Stavros is sitting in my lounge with a kocan with his name on I'll buy the eggs for her, until then I will treasure my fond memories of her.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 13:50

tomms,

you definately are not Pikey he would not make such a stupid statement.

It is not over yet has any building been demolished??

have any assets been seized??

Absolutely nothing has been done, it is purely a paper exercise there is no Victory.

Unless you take into consideration that the Talks will now of course go in only one direction a split island so really the victor is the TRNC

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 13:55

hatti

don't be too sure your not on her land!



yes ,tomms, have a drink for me! i spoke with jules a while back and i'm sure the party will be in full swing, sorry but i can't make it. send my love to all and tell jules i hope to see her soon.

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 13:56

Fire Starter

Being a christian lady if Mr Wotsit is so desperate to go after my assetts I will of course do all I can to help him. Just a word of warning though, if he goes after my pension he will have a hell of a struggle, the government doesn't want to give it to me and I've paid it in so I think he may have his work cut out. Besides that it is such a pittance it really isn't worth bothering with, it certainly won't change his way of life.

muzer


Joined: 02/03/2009
Posts: 68

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 14:01

Hatti you make me laugh cheers

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 14:02

Fire Starter, certainly not on her land, she's British as she has always told us, a bit like your husband I believe.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 14:07

i have seen papers for what she and her family own in the north, so don't be so sure.



i was just speaking with someone who knows mr a, they tell me for him it was never about the money!

meddmale


Joined: 19/11/2007
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 14:10

Europe as usual has treated us like s**t, peasant Turks to be pushed around and brought to our knees



So much for our attempts at a re-unification and voting yes to the Anan plan look what thats got us but the GC have now got a big reward for voting no



Remember these are the actions of people who pretend to want peace and to be your neighbours!!!!!



Turkey, wake up Europe doesn’t want you, they love the Greeks who will always poison them against you



Close the green line crossing points now to prevent any more papers being served on innocent people

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 14:10

fire starter. Of course it was for the money. You wait and see if he challenges the UK assets of the Orams, then we'll see if it's for the money. If it isn't then he doesn't have to make a challenge as he would have proved his point.

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 14:11

Don't worry, be happy.

Everything comes to those who wait, but it will be a long wait !!!!!

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 14:22

doyen,

what he was saying it was all about principle.

can you imagine how much this has cost, the people on both sides?

i would want my costs back if i were him!

the orams are just the test case the scape goats, they took a chance and it didn't pay off,

who sold them the land anyway? does anyone know? which agent did they use? lawyer??

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 14:27

You don't really believe that any of his own money went into this legal action do you, this had sod all to so with principles, this was politically motivated by people who want revenge, not their land back, and it's the big fish who have backed him.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 14:42

what proof of that do you have hatti?

vincehugo


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 14:48

So Mr Apostolides has "won". As I understand it he is now entitled to claim £13k from the Orams. I don't know what their financial situation is but I sincerely hope that they are able to pay him this money without "losing their UK home". They can still keep their house in TRNC because it is outside the EU - so Mr Apostolides doesn't get his land back.



The Orams could then (if they have the stomach for it) talk to the TRNC government, identify the plot of land in the South for which their Es Deger plot was "exchanged" and then ask the RoC government for the rent they say they have been collecting on this land waiting to pay it to the rightful owner. (This must surely be more than the £13k paid to Mr Apostolides in rent as we all know land in the South is worth more).



(continued)

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 14:48

Msg 37



the orams are just the test case the scape goats, they took a chance and it didn't pay off,

who sold them the land anyway? does anyone know? which agent did they use? lawyer??



The Government said the land was Exchange land so why blame the agent and the advokat?



The Government are the ones who are supposed to be holding all of the exchange title deeds are they not??

after all they did the exchange deals.

vincehugo


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 14:52

(continued)

Or they could enjoy their home in TRNC and wait for some sort of resolution to the bigger problem - either partition (whereby they would keep their house in TRNC) or a negotiated solution (somewhat less likely now, Mr Apostolides) which would need to address resolution of the property issue and (in my opinion) is unlikely to result in Mr Apostolides getting his land back even then. Oh and would presumably also provide for the handover of the rent from their land in the South if they hadn't gone to the trouble of pursuing the RoC government for it earlier.



Great result, Mr Apostolides! Or am I missing something?

rocking


Joined: 05/11/2008
Posts: 421

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 15:38

Stop panicing - any GCs reading this forum will be delighted - it is not over yet - we have a long way to go. TCs are not going to give in that easy courts or no courts. Let us wait a while. I do feel that the person who owns the land which Lanaca Airport is on and the surrounding motor ways should slap a court order on them today. Also please do not go over and spend money shopping - give them nothing.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 16:06

Punktlich re 15-17



SIGH..



1/ This judgement is about the right of any EU Court to have to enforce a judgement of the RoC - particularly appertaining to Protocol 10 - the areas of CY where the govt does NOT have effective control. The status ( or non status of "TRNC" is not relevant - other than the plaintiff can't get the order to claim damages / demolish enforced.





2/ it is VERY specific - and relates to precisely the dilemma many posters face.



3/ The Orams' did not defend a legal writ - we don't know what will happen if someone DOES



4/ Now the UK Courts have to enforce - and there are several routes available to the Plaintiff - as we discussed if the debt is more than £750 the Orams' can be made Bankrupt. .. then the Official Receiver steps into their equity "shoes" and they have to reveal their assets and he can go back and undue actions to avoid creditors.





You are the expert in this field - where am I mistaken?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 16:07

Dear VinceHugo re msg 42



Do you know who is paying the Orams' and the Plaintiff's costs - they are considerably higher than £13k

vincehugo


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 16:13

Mark Re Msg 45



No I don't. Do you know if Apostolides has been awarded his costs?

zcacmxi


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 388

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 16:19

mmmmmm, re point 3 in mgs 44:



If the Orams had defended the writ, they could:



1) Plead not guilty, and state they bought property lawfully based on TRNC law.

2) Plead guilty, and say they accept Apostolides is still the owner.



The outcome would have been the same, as TRNC not recognised. Oram's would have been found guilty of use of property without original owners & ROC permission. They would then presumably be punished, and should they default on punishment it could have been followed through in the UK.



SO, the outcome is the same either way. Do you not agree?

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 16:30

Why would ex pats in the North need sympathy?



Nothing has been achieved yet, an ECJ ruling is only confirming interpretation of the law not enforcement.

This is far from won, a minor battle over yes but now there are much more to come.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 16:43

tomms. Not much sympathy in the north either.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 16:44

Constantinos Kantounas, lawyer for Apostolides, said he was ‘ecstatic’ at the outcome but doubted the ruling would open the way for hundreds more Greek Cypriots to demand restitution for properties they were forced to flee.



“This was a total vindication for Mr. Apostolides. I doubt it will open the flood gates it is not easy at all, I very much doubt that many will follow,” he told Radio Napa.

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 16:52

msgs 45, 46,

Costs were left to the discretion of the court which is dealing with the 'main proceedings' see section 82 of the Judgement.

Keith.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 17:28

zcacmxi re 47





"If the Orams had defended the writ, the outcome [would have been ] the same either way. Do you not agree?"



YES, possibly so at the RoC court, but they could point out that this was not the method that should be used to seek redress and refer to the ECHR ruling...



The RoC would probably "ignore" that and the defendants could appeal in the RoC, then go to the ECHR if their "suggestion", was again , ignored.



Am I in the wrong profession ? ;)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 17:34

re 46 VinceHugo,



re costs - I don't know who owes what or WHO is paying it )

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 17:59

It would be 'costs in the cause' in other words, the losing party will pay for it at the end of the UK case, viz the Orams (or hopefully whoever is backing them will pay). I fail to see why this is seen as a 'minor battle.' Cases don't get referred to the ECJ as a matter of course and rarely do you get such a unequivacal decision.

I still can't see why Mr A's lawyer doesn't think it will open the floodgates. Can someone enlighten me on that?

Middle Easter


Joined: 13/06/2007
Posts: 146

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 18:14

People,



The only lasting solution will be at governmental level, not individual cases. If compensation is to be paid, we will all pay.



In answer to an earlier post that the GC will compulsary purchase TC assets such as Larnaca Airport. If this is true, why has it not happended yet? Come on people, a divided country is not solved by individual actions.



Worry not.

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 18:17

'Worry not.'

Pity the TRNC government isn't saying that. Their silence is speaking volumes.

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 18:42

It now goes back to the UK courts for them to rule see Wall Street Journal

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124091203150163129.html?mod=googlenews_wsj



Isn't the Orams case if they loose against their solicitors in TRNC for not getting clear title .

The solicitors then go for the TRNC government and so on

rocking


Joined: 05/11/2008
Posts: 421

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 19:20

Mess. 57 Talat has been on the TV and said exactly that 'worry not'. I am not a fan of Talat but he spoke well and said that this is not finished by a long way - and I believe him - many more avenues to go down yet. I remember the UN stating that the property issue should not be dealt with on individual cases as this would result in 'hatred amongst both communities' and not help the situation. How right they were.

blinky



Joined: 07/12/2008
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 19:29

Rocking, is there not a link on u tube or something? anyone help?? so we can post it here??

coolkid


Joined: 24/07/2008
Posts: 64

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 19:57

would it help to individualy write to the UN

vincehugo


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
28/04/2009 20:20

Official message from President Talat now posted here



http://www.kktcb.eu/index.php?tpl=show_news&id=504

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
29/04/2009 08:05

Dear "VinceHugo", re msg 58



This speech was nearly creditable unless Mr Talat said:



"the court has ruled that the Orams couple is to pull down the villa they have built on the immovable property which ****belonged**** to Mr. Apostolides’ family before 1974 and to return the said property to Mr. Apostolides"





As, he'll know.. the ECHR to which the Orams' have turned would say it STILL belongs to Mr. Apostolides/.



I believe that the "twist", the fudge" I predicted will be the "delaying tactic" of going back through the UK Courts .. Mr Talat believes " the British Court of Appeal will take the accordance of the decision with the public policy into consideration".. TRUE .. but it would be another political decision and not a LEGAL one, if they "ignore" the ECJ ruling..



Interestingly, he put a great deal of emphasis on the private, Civil ( as in non Criminal) , nature of the case - distancing the "authorities" from the action ! Carry on as normal folks..in this surreal place

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
02/05/2009 18:02

Anyone worthy of being described as Christian would not seek to exploit the suffering of others for fear of the consequences



Except the GC's for what they done to the TC's of course!!