Kocans

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 09:49

As I understand it.



When TCs left The South to come to The TRNC, they handed over their Kochans to The TRNC Government in return for points in what was loosely termed the Exchange Land system.



The Government in The South retained the old TCs land and in fact made it an illegal act to sell or otherwise dispose of that land.



It follows therefore that The TRNC Government hold the deeds for thousands of plots and buildings in the South, and that land is therefore still available. Is this the case?



Given that land in the South is far more valuable than land in the North, if compensation becomes "the order of the day" following the reunification talks, will there not be a huge surplus once that land is sold off, and GCs that lost land in the North are fully compensated.? What will happen to that surplus.



I should add that when we purchased our villa on exchange land, we were told, and had no reason to believe that exchange land was just that, and had been swapped by mutual

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 09:52

sgreement.



All very confusing. Can some member confirm if my understanding is correct, and are their any estimates available for land in the South, that is so held!



wynyardman

McSteviet



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1089

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 12:01

Morning, Can't answer your question, but Morning.



Mc

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 12:26

Hi Wyn, In principal is guess you would be correct with your analogy but in practice I fear another story.





It would be interesting to know how many donums were left in the south and how many have been built on in the north to get some sort of pespective ?

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 12:30

Morning Wyn....it's a bit early for me to get my brain into gear on this one,but I'm sure there are a few more knowledgeable posters on here who will point you in the right direction !



I'm sure that you and many others fell for the Estate Agents spiel about what "Exchange Land" actually was,and evisaged a situation as you say where a TC and a GC had come together,maybe over lunch and a coffee,to swap their respective deeds,shake hands and live happily ever after!



If only life was so simple!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 12:56

Good morning all,



I do not believe what I say, but I am just trying to follow a logical thought pattern through.



I have tried for three years to get an answer, but my questions always get deflected.



! How many dodums in the south do The TRNC Govt. hold kocans for?



2 Is that land available for repatriation to The TC community.?



3 Presumably land seized under the loosely termed "Exchange System" has been handed out under the points system, so they will not require compensation.



ALL ASSUMING of COURSE..that compensation is the order of the day, as the decision to

come out of The reunification talks.



wynyardman

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 13:13

Hi MacSteviot,



Hello. Progress good at Greatstone Park. I will E mail latest pics.



Soon be 100% on your site!



Cheers,



Wyn

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 13:13

I think a lot of the answers you seek will only become clear in the event of a settlement. For example, a friend of mine's parents had 140 donums in Paphos, a waterfront restaurant in Larnaca (the only one on the seafront apparently) plus other properties and land. When they fled North they were given (in his words) a grotty bungalow, 9 donums of lemon trees and a shop. They obviously do not feel that they have had like for like but accepted the situation they were faced with and have made the best of their life here. In the event of a settlement I would assume they would seek to redress the balance. On the flip side there are probably people who received more here than they had in the South. So all in all I would think a nearly impossible situation to resolve to everyone's satisfaction.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 13:27

The starting point has to be recognition that there has been NO EXCHANGE. Forget the point system, put out of your mind any picture of a TC and GC willingly exchanging property, because it never happened.There have so far, only been a few cases in which this has happened and these cases and the people involved went before the ECHR. The CG government, wrongly in my opinion, never agreed to property exchanges with the TRNC government. So think of exchange land and houses as GC owned land and houses.



According to UN resolutions the GC still have the right of return.The distribution of title deeds by the TRNC does not constitute a property exchange.

An exchange must be agreed by the TC owner and the GC owner.

The British High Commission in Cyprus have always warned that in the event of a solution purchasers risk losing property that belongs to GC's. We can only hope that there is a solution fair to all at the reunification talks.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 13:32

WYN,

I too would like to know how much property in the South is TC owned or has been compulsory purchased by the ROC, and how much land in the north is GC owned.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 13:43

Bradus,



Unusually for us, I cannot agree with your assumption.



Assuming we took your stance, The TRNC Government would be addmiting to a massive International fraud. I can't see them doing that! I feel that acceptance of The Exchange Principle by both parties could possibly be the basis for an agreed settlement in maybe 80/ 90% of cases, with compensation in cash for those who had not accepted the exchange land.



Perhaps The TRNC Government could hand over to The Greek Government, all of The Kocans taken under "the exchange principle" and leave them to compensate the claimants.



Hence my question!



wynyardman





Aussie,



Come on my friend, we need your learn'ed take on this one!

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 14:10

wyn,

It is not meant to be an assumption. It is the facts.......this is how it is. No such thing as exchange has happened.



Now if you are saying that exchange may be the answer to the property problem then you could be right. We don't have a crystal ball so your guess is as good as mine.



Any solution will be messy and complicated, particularly if the stastics that 80% of the islands property and land was GC owned pre 74 are true. This alone will limit the number who can actually exchange. Some accurate statistics on land ownership would be useful.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 15:48

bradus

there was a pre 74 map floating around on the other forum, showing the tc and gc areas pre 1974. sorry i don't have the link. i do remember that a lot of the land in the north is gc owned.



wyn

how many times? no exchange happened!

i think the land here was given on a points basis and that the tc's still hold the title deeds for that land.

it will also be registered at the district lands office in the roc.

the title deeds you have are written by the trnc gov, who the rest of the world other than turkey don't recognise as a legal goverment in cyprus.

hence they only see the roc title deeds as legal.



if i were you right now i would be selling my assets elsewhere and making sure my money was off shore and out of touch.



this is nothing new as mr t always said it would be a solution by cypriots for cypriots.

McSteviet



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1089

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 23:15

Wyn,



I got you emails but I cant see the piccies. I think you are using a Mac and I have a real problem with any photos sent from a Mac. Just cannot see anything.



Any other way I can see them?



Mc

McSteviet



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1089

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 23:17

Wyn,



Sorry forgot to ask. Have you just been out?



We are out there in March, so I guess we will not be finished by then.



Mc

davidoff


Joined: 21/04/2007
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 23:35

Hi all,



From what I understand the "exchange" scenario only seems to exist in NC the south have never acknowledged or authorised any exchange land .



We are lead to believe by the TRNC that exchange land is safe and has taken place but infact it hasent.



Also the figures dont add up as a small percentage of tc land was left in the south compare to a huge ammount left in the north by GCs- In other words the north has much greater land mass belonging to GCs than Land in the south that belongs to TCs.



So if south has restrictions on TC land not to be touched and the TCs are selling off land that is GCs owned in the form of so called exchange then this will lead to alot of problems in the future from what I can gather all things considered?



dx

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 23:39

David my question exactly, how much land was left in the south and how much has been built on in the north.

There must be an accurate record somewhere

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 23:43

Hi MacSteviot,



We were last out in October. Latest photos received just this week. I use an Apple Macbook Pro. I will try and send again.



Tash reckons he will be finished on our site 8 weeks. I am trying to get a flight out next few weeks.



Your site should get a lift with the transfer of tradesmen.



Regards,



wyn

davidoff


Joined: 21/04/2007
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
24/01/2009 23:58

Hi turtle,



From what Ive read all the true and accurate records of who owns what is in the nicosia offices in the south side if I remeber correctly from previous threads?



d

millzer


Joined: 12/04/2007
Posts: 978

Message Posted:
25/01/2009 00:32

So; Our property is on exchange land in the North. I am aware that the 'exchange' land system was a TRNC initiative and not agreed with the ROC or owner of the land our property now sits on.



IF (and I say IF) the original TC that sold the land our property sits on gave up the land in the south under the 'exchange' system, then surely that land in the south now belongs to us!



IF that land in the south is of similar, greater or lesser value then this land could be used in any deal in a number of ways.



1) We would have to give up the property in the north but we would own the land in the south.



2) The GC owner of 'our land' in the north accepts compensation by taking ownership of the land in the south.



3) OR, financial compensation by way of us selling the land in the south to finance that compensation .



Whichever way, assuming the exchange land originally offered was similar to the land in the south then there's something of equal value to balance it against

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
25/01/2009 01:03

Millzer, some sanity at last.

Lets wait for the southies to pull this apart ?

millzer


Joined: 12/04/2007
Posts: 978

Message Posted:
25/01/2009 01:22

Just to complicate things a little further.



I'm sure there are a large number of developments in the north that developers bought from MORE than one TC owner and likewise those plots of land could well be owned by multiple GC owners too. Another big mess to sort out and unless there is a political solution the only people making big bucks out of this will be the lawyer and considering the scale of the problem they'll be on the big bucks for many years to come.

millzer


Joined: 12/04/2007
Posts: 978

Message Posted:
25/01/2009 01:30

Not sure if I explained message 22 very well. I meant for example a single housing development by a builder where he has bought land from a number of different TC's in order to accommodate XX amount of properties. I know of one develpment (SeaTerra Bay) where I was told that some of the land is exchange and some is TMD (Army gift land)

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
25/01/2009 05:02

i'll ask my misus - she seems to know everything...





Nick

millzer


Joined: 12/04/2007
Posts: 978

Message Posted:
25/01/2009 10:51

Turtle, message 21. I'm still waiting, are you?

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
25/01/2009 11:34

d msg 19



Yes, the land registry records as at 1974 are in South Nicosia and are available for anyone to see, if you can get access!!!!!



As for anything after that, as far as I am concerned there is no such thing as "exchange land" it was a ploy used by estate agents to sell properties.



Until or if an agreement is reached I think all of these discussions are a waste of breath because non of us knows the true facts. We may get our kocans at some point we may get thrown out but until it happens.........!

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
25/01/2009 14:07

msg 5:



"I'm sure that you and many others fell for the Estate Agents spiel about what "Exchange Land" actually was."



Speaking personally I was a grown man, by no means a genius, who had completed primary and secondary education when I bought in the TRNC. I find it hard to believe anyone with a modicum of intelligence would not suspect something illegal and immoral about buying property at a suspiciously cheap price in an unrecognised territory where the majority population were ethnically cleansed. The first questions being who did this property belong to and will it ever be mine?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/01/2009 16:26

Hi CiH re msg 26



"Yes, the land registry records as at 1974 are in South Nicosia and are available for anyone to see, if you can get access!!!!! "



WHATEVER do you mean by that ?... You MUST be given access.. you MIGHT be charged a small search fee...

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
25/01/2009 16:39

only time will tell macha???

mishmash


Joined: 05/05/2008
Posts: 336

Message Posted:
25/01/2009 18:02

Has anyone been to the land registry? Whereabouts exactly is it and what information would you need in order to check on your land? Any ideas?

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
25/01/2009 18:07

msg 30 your lawyer will do that for you youve already paid them to check your land

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
25/01/2009 18:18

mishmash

we have been to the roc lands office in nicosia.

it is close to the american embassy.( get a torist map and they will show on that)

you will need to know the greek cypriot name for your area, along with the reference on the bottom of your trnc kochan, which is the ordinence survey ref.

(same in the south and the north).

the exact address is on the net.

they have all the village land plots pre 1974 and if anyone owns them it will be showing.