orams title deeds

ajaney


Joined: 24/12/2008
Posts: 199

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 18:32

I have just come back from TRNC. I was told by a person that the Orams title deeds are TMD (points) rather than exchange. Can canyone confirm the type of title deeds that they hold



Thanks

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 18:44

I'm only a novice in these matters but I thought the "points" system applied to Esdeger(Exchange) Land rather than TMD ?

ajaney


Joined: 24/12/2008
Posts: 199

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 20:33

It is alla bit confusing but i beleive that the points system tmd was for rewarding military service and exchange was for refugees who had fled the south and left property behind also on a points system of the value ofthe property left behind. i cannot fnd any referenceas to what type of title the Orams have. regardless of type of title I wuld like to know what they can do next if they lose thisjudgment

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 20:51

The Government of The TRNC had no right to sell land land that belonged to Greek Cypriots.

It was an international fraud on a grand scale.



The legality of this action will only be determined by what they agree to accept as "the truth"



on any settlement that comes out of "The Reunification Talks"



Mr Talat.....many are holding there breath. Do Turkey stand by their actions in respect of The TRNC, or will they accept that they are guilty of an International fraud, that leaves the likes of Garry Robb, as little more than kindergarden amateurs.



Your call Mr Talat.



wyn

zcacmxi


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 388

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 21:36

The migration of people between South & North started in the 60s, and finished in 1974. The UN were involved in this movement, and a "Population Exchange Agreement" was signed in 1975. See: http://www.cypnet.co.uk/ncyprus/history/republic/agmt-popexch.html



It follows that given these people were migrated they would also require places to live & work. Like the Population Exchange Agreement, one can expect that with a Comprehensive Settlement there would also be a "Property Exchange".



This concept has been included in all UN/Internationally sponsored settlement plans, including the last Annan Plan.



In any case, given the ROC has recognition & EU membership, they have no reason to agree to any settlement. So the current situation will remain until this changes.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 21:47

It is a little late in the day to discuss the type of title deed that the Orams hold.



The title deeds issued by the TRNC are legal as defined by that administration.

The International community do not recognise the TRNC and consequently its administration.

The TRNC administration have a responsibility to TRNC title holders regardless of type of title. In my view TMD or Eshder title has equal signifigance in any property matter.

It is the case that land was deserted, people were displaced (Greeks and Turkish)and atrocities took place over 30 yeras ago.

The ROC/TRNC settlement talks currently under way with some momentum must resolve the many and complex issues.

The matter is clearly a political one and must be resolved through political channels and negotiation.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 22:10

WAZ 24-7,



Thank you for your valued contribution.



Is my TRNC kocan valid.? What right does anyone have to negotiate it away?



Do Turkey (in your opinion) have to stand behind my TRNC issued Kocan. in International terms?



Is your opinion of any more value, than the rest of us suckers, that at this point in time

accept that maybe just maybe, have been victims of an International scam of monumental proportions.



Guess we will only find out when Mr Talat, decides which way to jump!



Pray...where does international law fit into all this.



"resolved through political channels and negotiation" A bit late in the day for that one?



Why not just call a spade a spade?



wyn

ajaney


Joined: 24/12/2008
Posts: 199

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 22:17

Wyn. Before making furtheraddress to Mr Talat it is worth considering with a general election round the corner there may be a different party in power after april to further the reunification talks

ajaney


Joined: 24/12/2008
Posts: 199

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 22:27

Reply to message 6. When I posted thismessage it was a genuine enquiry as to the type of title deeds the Orams hold. As yet I have no answer. To say it isa little late in the day to discuus this type of title day may well be right but i had no intention of discussing it I merely was seeking information. I follow this forum closely and have picked up lots of helpful information. However I have been loathe to enter the political arena as i felt that I might be 'jumped on'. In this case I have been proved right. i would still like to knowthe answer to my original question

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 22:28

ajaney,



An excellent point. My anger is with The Turkish Government, that chose to underwrite the



Government of the TRNC. I accuse no man of wrongdoing, until a signature is put on a piece



of paper, that signs away my legitimate rights, as assurred to me by The TRNC Government,



My advocate, Unwins Estate Agent, and my builder, all of whom assurred me that the



Exchange Land that I bought, was of free title, and had been exchanged freely, with The



Greek owner of that land.



It was a shameful deceit that need to be resolved!



wyn

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 22:28

ajaney

'there may be a different party in power after april to further the reunification talks'



If the party of choice becomes the ruling party of the TRNC then the reunification talks will be no more.

AJ

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 22:35

ajaney i beleive the Orams property to be on Exchange land.



Cooper

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 22:51

ajaney,



You have a valid point. So often when posting on this board, you end up with more questions than answers.



Guess that is just the nature of the beast!



wyn

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 23:18

Wyn Msg 7



Your Kocan is issued by and validated by the administration in the TRNC.

The International view is currently one of non rocognition of the TRNC.

This clearly casts some doubt upon what is legal and not legal in some eyes.



However the De-facto on the groud situation in TRNC does carry some weight in current settlement talks. There has been significant changes in the North over the past 34 years. Peace, prosperity and a distictive level of independance fron the ROC.

The route to settlement will be found around the international political table and not via civil litigation.

It is the case that you were decieved when you were told of a free exchange of property post 1974. Conflicting titles to Cypriot land are evident. The matter is a complex one and ill suited to District Court Judgment.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 23:20

wynyardman:



"The Government of The TRNC had no right to sell land land that belonged to Greek Cypriots. It was an international fraud on a grand scale."



Probably one of the best u-turns in the world.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 23:27

Msg 5:



"The migration of people between South & North started in the 60s, and finished in 1974. The UN were involved in this movement, and a "Population Exchange Agreement" was signed in 1975."



A nicely sanatised excuse for the aftermath of ethnic cleansing and other war crimes by Turkey, the result of which formed the short-lived TRNC property boom now ending in tears. Your Turkish propaganda link may fool a few newbies or shallow people, but not anyone who knows even the basics about Cyprus.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 23:29

msg 9 ajaney



I sincerely appologise if you feel jumped upon.



It is most likely that the Orams land purchase was Exchange.



For your information the type of title is indicated on the Kocan. Bottom Right under DOSYA No. An S prefix denotes eshder title T or TMD denotes TMD title.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
02/02/2009 23:40

Msg 16 Macha



You are correct to reference the ethnic cleansing that was very evident on the Island during the 60s and early seventies.

However, Mr Macarios, Anosis and the Eoka movement instigated the decline into anarchy and the intervention of the Turkish army.

There followed many atrocities on both sides and these matters are best left to History whilst the more modern Cyprus emerges from those dark days.



Peace and prosperity to all.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
03/02/2009

waz,



The biggest ethnic cleansing in Cyprus happened from 1974-75 and Turkey was responsible according to the UN and ECHR, whose decisions are legally binding and accepted internationally.



But we're getting way from the point. The Oramses house was built on Greek Cypriot property. Unrecognised, Micky Mouse titles like "exchange" or TMD" are meaningless. It's like accepting and quoting the words of a thief.

ajaney


Joined: 24/12/2008
Posts: 199

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 00:03

Message 17 Waz Thanks for the apology. I have read and respected a number of your postings. i was in the North of cyprus a number of times in the 70's and remember very well how things were then. It would seem now that there is still bitterness andthe feeling is that it will take another generation to forgive if not forget the wrongs from both sides. Maybe no setllement for now i am sad to see the island so divided and the countryside so spoiled by intensive and indescriminate development. In spite of all of this it remains an island close to my heart

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 08:44

Dear Waz re 6



"It is a little late in the day to discuss the type of title deed that the Orams hold."



No, it isn't as if they has bought on land that wasn't still owned by someone.....



"The International community do not recognise the TRNC and consequently its administration. "



or it's deeds..



"It is the case that land was deserted, people were displaced (Greeks and Turkish)and atrocities took place over 30 yeras ago. "



But who stopped the real owners returning and created the surreality that exits, now? You are trying to rationalise surreality.



"The ROC/TRNC settlement talks currently under way with some momentum must resolve the many and complex issues. "



More correctly, it is the leaders of the RoC and elected representatives of the TCs..but are the latter "allowed" to make deals without Turkey's input?



"The matter is clearly a political one and must be resolved through political channels and negotiation. "



No.. there is plenty of legal a

smoggyjim


Joined: 21/07/2007
Posts: 214

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 10:48

Waz-24-7



the copy of the Kocan the seller has for the property we are buying has a B prefix under Dosiya No so what does this mean

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 11:17

cont from 21 - No, there is plenty of legal judgements and pending actions, before the ECHR, that are driving these settlements...

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 13:06

mmmmmm Msg 21-23



You are aware that a Judgment on the Orams case has been made by the District Court of Nicosia. Type of title deed held by Orams is now insignificant.



It is my view that the current litigations brought by ROC citizens only frustrate the current talks. The ROC are clearly taking the legal side route to strengthen their hand at the negotiating table.

However, the EU , who are a major influence on the Island,have a responsibility to citizens of the whole island. A negotiated and fair settlement will arrive that considers the social, political and economic needs of the populus as a whole.

To rely soley on legal pedantics dating back many many years will fail to produce a suitable solution to the Cyprus problem.



Turkey do have an Influence upon the TRNC and this is acceptable to me as they have for many years provided the security to the Northern population.

I believe that Turkey,with the EU, aspire to a solution for the Island.

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 13:11

I am led to believe they are on GC land, niether exchanged or points

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 13:22

Matcha msg 19

Thank you for your comments.



Whilst it is accepted that some land in the TRNC was registered to ROC citizens prior to 1974. It is a fact that the majority of land was not registered and without title at the said time.



The TRNC which is the de-facto administration in the region provides social political and economic stability for its population, visitors and investors.

It is the case that many people were displaced from property that they occupied in 1974. It is fair that these persons should be compensated for their loss.

Considering the massive changes upon the Island since the dark days of the 60s and early seventies it would be inpractical to consider a return to a 1970s status.

Your reference to theft is somewhat misplaced. History is littered with instances of displaced civilisations. None, to my knowedge have been resolved by litigation for theft.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 13:27

msg 22 smoggy



I am not familiar with the B prefix. However I have seen many hadwritting styles on Kocans that represent the S prefix. TMD is normally easily identified with 3 letters.

I suspect that your Kocan is indeed Eshder.



You may confirm this at the district land registry. Details and contacts can be found on the excellent Home Buyers Pressure Group web site

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 13:51

there are conflicting currents and threads in the south I'm sure

and also because the underlying issues are so bitter and so controversial

we should not be at all surprised that ongoing legal claims,

toxify the atmosphere of the cyprus talks as these yet grind on into 2009



but I am sceptical that there does exist any "single" equitable alternative

to the existing division of the island into the two states presently at peace,

nonetheless I may be mistaken about this and we will all know the outcome

when the talks end with the sound of trumpets, bang or a whimper



the orams are of course being made scapegoats for the failiure of cypriots

to get on with each other during the last fortyfive years,

while it seems to me that the litiginious strategy will add somewhat

to the trnc's financial troubles and relative isolation while nonetheless

being most unlikely to change the balance of power on the island



andre

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 16:29

Dear waz 24



There are THOUSANDS of applications before the ECHR against TR for loss of use claims.



The action against the Orams was indeed started in the RoC Courts and it is VERY important the type of deeds they had - otherwise if their claim to title was VALID - they wouldn't be in the mess they are in.



Again, you are saying that the RoC are behind the Oram's case despite my asking anyone for PROOF, and no-one countering my point that Mr A, the GC owner was crying for help re costs... So, I feel that one needs to separate private actions by citizens versus claims to the ECHR for loss of use.



"I believe that Turkey,with the EU, aspire to a solution for the Island."



Great, I'm banking on the same ;)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 16:37

re Waz 19





"Whilst it is accepted that some land in the TRNC was registered to ROC citizens prior to 1974. It is a fact that the majority of land was not registered and without title at the said time."



c.78% is the percentage agreed by the ECHR / UN.. and the ECHR accept records from the RoC land registry as the reference point re ownnership



"The TRNC which is the de-facto administration" ..Not de-jure- and the ECHR say it's TURKEY...who call the shots.



"It is the case that many people were displaced from property .. It is fair that these persons should be compensated for their loss."



"Considering the massive changes upon the Island since the dark days of the 60s and early seventies it would be inpractical to consider a return to a 1970s status."



How "convenient" and whilst short-term you are correct, there can be a solution where many folk have RESTITUTION in time.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 16:45

Dear Andre re msg 28



"but I am sceptical that there does exist any "single" equitable alternative



to the existing division of the island into the two states presently at peace, "



Don't forget how your "peace" came about - ethnic cleansing and deaths on a HUGE scale..



There is only ONE state and unless TR annexes the north there will only ever be ONE state - hopefully the TCs will get the powerful autonomy they need for security.



In case someone tries the "GC sympathiser" card.. ask yourself to examine all the recent international initiatives.. they all have the same theme..



NONE of them mention two states... autonomous regions - sure ..

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 17:09

Msg 29 mmm

The Orams title to the said land had no signifigance because the District Court Judgment passed was one of default of appearance. The Orams had no real chance in this case.

However,

In the resulting appeal before Justice Jack in the London High Court. The Orams appeals were allowed because Justice Jack was of the opinion that the Law pertaining to appearance and defence protocol was not followed.



Mark there may well be many thousands of applications to come before the ECHR. What can this possibly produce apart from a return to anarchy and divergence from settlement. I do hope that the political route will prevail before the return of darkness and anarchy.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 17:23

mes 21 - mmmm perhaps i should have taken advice from you rather than my lawyer, then i wouldn't be in the mess i'm in now.



Nick

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
03/02/2009 23:06

message 32



warren why do you think the thousands of cases

will produce a "return to anarchy"?

it may well produce a twenty-year wait if they all get to be heard though

it is probably happening because the claimants themselves do not believe

behind all the huff and puff, there is not going to be what you may call

"a settlement", since both sides now seem to be hardening their positions



the effect of the cases is that it will engender worry and confusion

and blacken north cyprus' image



the problem with the ECJ sitting on these politically-related claims

is that the ECJ is not exactly the old bailey

and should the house of lords for example ultimately refuse uk courts'

authority to proceed based on any ECJ decision, the claimants

and their baying supporters will be up the stream without an oar, as it were



andre

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
04/02/2009 01:22

Andre msg 24.



The litigation path currently being pursued by many ROC citizens is the seed for the re-emergence of sectarian hatred and violence as seen in the 60s and 70s dark age.

Political will and control would suffer and diminish.The combined result could lead to anarchy and a total collapse of trust and co-operation.



The litigation path is a dangerous one destined for the advancement and gain for the minority and for the suffering and loss for the majority.



Your point regarding a House of Lords ruling is very significant and may well be on the Orams agenda for their heroic struggle.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
04/02/2009 02:57

hi warren,



I agree if you are saying that these cases portray one aspect only

and will serve to increase the suspicion and distrust on both sides

and attempts to make the humble expat or retiree the aunt sally



the south's dream is to "get back" north cyprus as we all know,

this they somehow managed to lose at an earlier date

(shades of earnest and lady bracknell)

our late lamented private pike blew the gaff when he said he wants

"to get back north cyprus (for all cypriots)" his afterthought in my parentheses



from their narrow point of view there is nothing wrong or disreputable in this

only that it would cause chaos and devastation of structures

built up since 1974 and scores of thousands of settlers would be expelled



the legalistic approach, some would call it a charade, is arguably valid and justifiable and the claimants have garnered wide international agreement too,

but they lack any means to enforce it on the trnc and perhaps in the real world



andre

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/02/2009 12:24

Dear Waz re 32



"The Orams title to the said land had no signifigance because the District Court Judgment passed was one of default of appearance. The Orams had no real chance in this case. "



Don't agree.. if they had had the proper deeds they wouldn't have BEEN in Court in the RoC..



"In the resulting appeal before Justice Jack in the London High Court. The Orams appeals were allowed because Justice Jack was of the opinion that the Law pertaining to appearance and defence protocol was not followed. "



..but the case is before the ECJ, now, and we both know what the AG has advised...



".. thousands of applications to come before the ECHR. What can this possibly produce apart from a return to anarchy and divergence from settlement. I do hope that the political route will prevail before the return of darkness and anarchy."



Waz, I hardly think the learned Judges who sit on the panel .. including TR ones .. preside over "anarchy"..

LondonCypriot


Joined: 15/12/2008
Posts: 426

Message Posted:
04/02/2009 14:39

The TRNC is here to stay. Its in the Turkish military interests to have an piece of Cyprus, known as the TRNC.



An Cyprus solution is impossible and we all know this. The sooner everyone recognises this the better.



Thanks



L.Cypriot

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
04/02/2009 22:30

thank goodness a cypriot speaks



we have been floundering in the twilight zone of make-believe,

a cyprus solution, the man says is "impossible", he must mean re-unification



please please everybody stop mouthing this tired settlement muzak

you don't even believe it yourselves and it's getting on my nerves

the sides are light years apart separated by an unbridgeable chasm

so very sad...but should things change do let me know immediately



does this mean I'm a pessimist?

not at all, it only means being R.E.A.L.I.S.T.I.C and H.O.N.E.S.T.

...all you lovely lot south of the border please note!



anyone still admire the king's new suit of clothes?



andre

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
04/02/2009 23:03

andre:



"anyone still admire the king's new suit of clothes?"



TBH I always thought the Emperor's Clothes could be seen on a daily basis north of the ceasefire line.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
04/02/2009 23:12

macha,



do you think a re-unification deal is in the offing?



do you think the orams' saga will make a settlement more likely or less likely?



andre

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
04/02/2009 23:32

andre,



I think a peace deal is on the cards, especially given the world situation. The ordinary Cypriots have had enough and it's time they sent the foreigners packing.



As for Orams, the ruling will come after the referenda, IMO.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 00:37

Dear LondonCypriot re msg 38



If "TRNC" is here to stay..



1/ Why can't you fly there directly?



2/ Why is the tel code Turkey ?



3/ Why is it Mersin 10 , Turkey?



The sooner TCs say "goodbye" to the "tag" and call it something else - that infers an autonomous region of Cyprus.. with it's own assembly - the sooner I won't be asking you the above questions..



As long as the UN Security Council Resolution is in placed - declaring "TRNC" isn't a country - it can never function like one...



The only way to get the Russians and Chinese to vote to rescind it is to outsmart the "rump" RoC ..

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 00:42

macha,



if you look at the negociating positions of the the two states,



these are further apart than in 2004, see my earlier postings



I agree with you that some islanders want to expell foreigners



but not all cypriots would agree on what a foreigner actually is



also whether the huge financial cost can be afforded...



and which referendum are you talking about?



andre

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 13:51

mmmmm, Andre,



Without any doubt whatsoever the litigation route will not lead to settlement of the Cyprus Issue.



It is due time for individuals to portray their stance upon settlement, peace and prosperity. How might this be achieved? The current Political agenda is for settlement. Any matter that frustrates this path should be discouraged.



To question the status of the TRNC is not conjusive to settlement.

To instigate or support civil litigation is not conjusive to settlement.

To preside over dark, historical events is not conjusive to setlement.

To dwell upon nationalistic differences is not conjusive to settlement.



To talk, discuss and negotiate is conjusive.

co-operation, convergence and compromise are conjusive.





It is due time for a defined and positive movement forward to settlement, peace and prosperity. This aspiration is indeed very achievable.

sausageandpas


Joined: 21/01/2009
Posts: 5

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 16:14

I once booked a holiday in Cyprus stayed in Limmasol, hired a car and started to drive around the island. Came to a wall with guards and guns, thought a new war had started. Did not realise that the island was divided. The South of the Island was very built-up, clean, all utilities worked, the South appeared to be very prosperous. Question: Will all the Turkish Cypriots who had to leave their homes in the South of the Island in 1974, be able to go back to reclaim their homes or get the compensation they deserve?

Question: Would the Turkish Cypriots be better off financially, to swop what they own in the North for what they owned in the South back in '74?

It seems we only hear about the Greek Cypriots wanting the land in the North of the Island. The North of the Island does seem to be a bit backward, only because for the last 30 odd years there has been no economic growth until now and hence the building boom.

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 18:03

Wynyardman,



Here I go again - my views, that are not shared on this board.



You asked about the International position. Right, forget all the rubbish spouted about Annan Plans etc as International Law is very clear on the transfer of real property...... the transfer can only be made with the signature, witnessed by deed, of the transferor.

I do not think this has occurred with any 'exchange' land.



Your advocate and Unwins assured you it was a clean exchange. Hardly a solid basis for making the purchase. The same estate agents once assured me that Gary Robb was a reputable developer.



Final point before the vitriol pours in - the 'exchange' land has not been exchanged by the true owners. Over 150 years of International Law precedent will not change to accommodate some low level corrupt TRNC politicians.



You 'own' your exchange land for as long as the Turkish army stands guard. In time Turkey will back down as they cannot afford to maintain TRNC.

It all comes down to Lira

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 19:55

yes namus I can agree with some of the facts you selected

but only the naive or biased will say this is the whole story:



firstly the dispossesed must really think their claims can "succeeed"

few germans nowadays moan about their loss of konigsberg

poles do complain about losing lvov but have "no chance" of redress



secondly the historical factor

there is what is known as ulsterisation...

to cut a long story short this can result in the descendents of your "usurpers" finishing up with at least as strong a case as the original claimant!



thirdly although what you describe as international law

appears to be on the side of your claimant in the case of cyprus,

remember the inhumane economic and social isolation of the trnc

was organised by devious means and contravenes international laws



lastly in such a long-standing and complex enmity

some foreign countries are fairly neutral while others are less so

...but none will risk a major clash over a local problem



andre

LondonCypriot


Joined: 15/12/2008
Posts: 426

Message Posted:
06/02/2009 00:37

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjGKnvXzm30

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
06/02/2009 01:02

intersting clip lc



makes you realize how dramatic those times must have been



andre

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
06/02/2009 10:35

Dear Warren re msg



Waz: "Without any doubt whatsoever the litigation route will not lead to settlement of the Cyprus Issue. "



keep reminding you.. those legal cases got the gates opened in 2003, and drive the talks on as TR knows it will HAVE to pay out, but if there's a settlement.....



"To question the status of the TRNC is not conjusive to settlement.".. Mr Denktash tried this as a "stalling static".. the UN sec council resolution is in place to say otherwise.. I would argue to "perpetuate" demanding recognition is "folly" .. It is accepted the "TCs" ( how many illegal settled Turks in that figure ? ) have elected a body to run their affairs.. but do they REALLY run the show?.. Come on Warren, we ALL know that they don't.. day to day may be..



"To preside over dark, historical events is not conjusive to setlement. " ..fine words ( not intended as sarcastic) , but it IS possible to look at the events and "correct" some of the "mistakes".. and that works BOTH ways..

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
06/02/2009 22:08

mmmmmmm

Mark

I must disagree with your sugestion that litigation is driving the TRNC to talks of settlement.

The Cyprus problem is simply not confined to one of property and civil litigation.

The problem is more importantly centred around the political status of the divided Island. The International community are keen to see formal stability and recognition status for the whole island.



I agree that Turkey have influence and provide support to the TRNC. However it is not the case that Turkey preside over the TRNC.

It is MR Talat that is the elected leader of the TRNC. Mt Talat sits at the negotiating table. Mr Talat leads the TRNC administration with its own laws and governing ministers.



I reiterate that past historical events are best left to history and that negotiators aspire to look forward to a negotiated settlement.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 10:01

Dear Warren - re msg 52



Waz:I must disagree with your sugestion that litigation is driving the TRNC to talks of settlement. "



Waz - I know Mr Talat wants to talk.. to ensure TCs can gain access and "recognition", but Turkey call the shots, ultimately, and even if Mr Talat "goes", his replacement- however unwilling to "talk" will be there - as TURKEY needs him to be there..



There is political pressure from outside because of the current status in Cyprus. the EU don't want the court cases..they want a settlement..



Waz:"I agree that Turkey have influence and provide support to the TRNC. However it is not the case that Turkey preside over the TRNC. "



A reminder of the ECHR p.o.v:"it was obvious from the large number of troops ..that the Turkish army exercise effective control over that part of the island. Such control entails her responsibility for the policies and actions of the "TRNC". ..those affected therefore come within the "jurisdiction" of Turkey."



Note the "'s

ajaney


Joined: 24/12/2008
Posts: 199

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 12:37

Hi Stewart

I would be interested to know on what basis you have this information. What I find extraordinary is that after 53 posts I have only had 3 answers to my original question and even then no one seems to be certain. I would have thought with such an important case it would have been common knowledge (this is not a critisism). However it has sparked on another interesting debaste on the Orams!

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 12:41

As i stated in message 12 it is on Exchange land.



Cooper

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 12:53

mmmmmm

Thank you for your comments.



It is accepted that Turkey have influence, and vested interest in the TRNC.

The level of their influence is determined, in part, behind closed doors.

Turkey, who are clearly the main ally to the TRNC are not dictators to the TRNC administration. There is a clear and strong liason between Turkey and TRNC. in much the same way that Greece was the supporter of the Greek Cypriots in the 60,s.

The Turkish presence and influence on the Island has been there for thousands of years and I see no reason that this should be halted. The TRNC is right to welcome any support offered.

The ECHR acknowledge the support as I do. I do believe that Turkey aspire to a more independant TRNC.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 15:08

Dear Warren re msg 56



Many TCs are pretty peeved at being out-numbered by mainlanders.



WAZ: "It is accepted that Turkey have influence, and vested interest in the TRNC."



.. nearly there .. Turkey decides policy - if TC leaders and TR can't agree - TR decides policy.. do you need me to quote MORE examples?



Apart from the ridiculous farce of 74 - can you tell me how Greece influences Cyprus, now?



"The Turkish presence and influence on the Island has been there for thousands of years"



An *ethnic* Turkish presence is VERY different from one that removes the Hellenic one and even caused ( with GC intolerance) 50% of TCs to leave the island - even after the "peace movement"..



" I do believe that Turkey aspire to a more independant TRNC."



Then they will wait a LONG time... there'll NEVER be any such thing as an independent "TRNC" .. an autonomous region of Cyprus would be more "independent" that it is now..

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 15:55

mmmmmm,



je rejoins votre opinion !

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 15:56

mmmmm

I cannot accept your sugestion that Turkey decides upon TRNC policy. I do not for a momment believe that you have the insight into TRNC and Turkish politics to illustrate this.



Greek influence upon ROC is minimal. They only share language and cultural similarities though some ROC citizens still show allegiance to Greece.



The Islands ancestral roots have always been widely spread and will likely remain so. The political and military strengths around the Eastern Mediteranean during any given historical period seem to have taken a commanding position. Turkey is indeed such a power in the current period.



I agree a totally independant TRNC is unlikely. An autonomous region currently known as TRNC that reflects the Turkish inhabitants, its, culture its language its wish for recognition is very likely.

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 16:07

mmmmmm,



je rejoins votre opinion !

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 20:47

Dear Warren re msg 59



"I cannot accept your sugestion that Turkey decides upon TRNC policy. I do not for a momment believe that you have the insight into TRNC and Turkish politics to illustrate this. "

Well Warren, what can I say... you've proved - again - how little you know ;)

My opinion and info comes mostly from TCs and Turks.. many of them involved politically and who have brought about HUGE changes in TR policy in Cyprus..

Greek influence on Cyprus WAS *immense* - especially in the 50-70's ..but no longer... they are GLAD the CY problem isn't theirs.. they'd rather improve relations with Turkey.



Turkey has an almost unreasonable fixation about Cyprus.. following the perceived loss of face in Rhodes, Crete, etc., and it vowed that never again would ethnic Turks be pushed out anywhere else..

BUT.. Cyprus is costing TR a LOT of money... and the military don't want to let it go.. it's got VERY little to do with TCs..

Lastly, how can an autonomous region be a "republic" ?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 20:56

Dear AJ re msg 11



"there may be a different party in power after april to further the reunification talks'







If the party of choice becomes the ruling party of the TRNC then the reunification talks will be no more. "



Haha, Dave.. would you wish to wager on that?



It won't matter WHO gets elected, if TR want to think on a macro - EU front...

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 21:05

Mark,

Thank you for your opinion.



I feel that you are no better placed than myself to cast opinion upon the influence or alleged conrol that Turkey has over the TRNC.



Furthermore, Turkey clearly has vested and reasonable interest upon the future of Cyprus as does the ROC, UK, UN and EU.

It is very clear that Turkey are in support of current talks and they justifiably support the TRNC in its task for settlement.

Lastly I refer to an autonomous region that is currently the TRNC. The comment is indeed in context.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 11:14

Dear Waz re msg 63



"I feel that you are no better placed than myself to cast opinion upon the influence or alleged conrol that Turkey has over the TRNC. "



Then I can only draw the conclusion that you are a selective reader...



"Furthermore, Turkey clearly has vested and reasonable interest upon the future of Cyprus as does the ROC, UK, UN and EU. "



Did "reasonable" include invasion, ethnic cleansing and propping up a region of a sovereign state, proposing to the world it is an "independent" state?



( before you or anyone else says "GC sympathiser" do check out the UN / ECHR line on "TRNC")



The question was, " how can an autonomous region be a "republic" ?"



I note you didn't actually answer the Q.. ;)

ajaney


Joined: 24/12/2008
Posts: 199

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 11:22

Sorry Cooper message 55 your message says that you "believe" it on exchange land, I was looking for a definitive answer

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 12:14

re msg 65 The definitive answer, surely, is that it is on Mr Apostolides' land

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 12:26

Correct. Forget all this "exchange" and "TMD" nonsense. These are meaningless terms dreamed up by the thieves-in-chief - and international law makes that clear.



If it's not pre-74 it's not legal, end of story.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 13:56

Why is it that Mr Apostolides does not settle with the Orams out of Court?



As Mr apostolides is well established in ROC and working for the ROC administration. Would it be reasonable for him to consider a financial settlement, remain in the ROC and get on with his life.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 14:06

Dear Waz re msg 68



You would need to ask Mr Apostilides that question - anything I ( or anyone one else) says could be wrong.. BUT



1/ the RoC is all of Cyprus



2/ his land is in the part of the RoC that is beyond govt control - but it is HIS land



3/ He approached his govt for help - very publically, and was refused .. and I KEEP asking for proof that he is being funded by the state - but no-one responds..



4/ He is asking for the house on HIS land to be demolished and back rent... what do you think would be an appropriate settlement?

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 14:22

mmmmmm



I fear that Mr Apostolides has no desire to sell the land.

He certainly has little enjoyment from the land and it is unlikely that he will take any benefit from it in the near future.

What value? under normal circumstances very little.

Under the current limelight his hand is very much stronger. Perhaps this is the basis of his litigation.



Perhaps you ought ask Mr Apostolides to comment upon his backers.

The likelyhood is that he is being financed by the ROC. I base this view upon a clear financial and political analysis. The ROC have a vested interest in a sucessfull outcome. The value of the land is minimal compared to the very high costs of litigation. What is there to gain? For the ROC ...Political victory over the TRNC opposition. For Mr Apostolides...A nationalistic victory but very little financial gain.

Political victory in this case has massive financial implications to the two governments.