Atheism

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:01

Hi Rob, before DCs thread was closed you asked a fair question so I will try to answer you You asked:



Surely, if there was no god, everyone would correctly be atheist.



Unfortunately you have combined two different disciplines in the makeup of your question, it would be like asking if there was no apples would we eat oranges... this same problem confronted the ancients thousands of years ago and it was probably Aristotle and the great classical thinkers who began to grapple with this question.... let me explain...



The question of whether there is an Almighty Being i.e.God ... is a question of whether such a Being could exist of Himself, creating but not created, living but neither born nor facing death... this discipline is known as Metaphysics.



The questiuon as to whether we believe or not is a question of Faith which is considered under the discipline of both Philosphy and Theology.



So you began with a metaphysical question and answered philosophically;

Static-X


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 197

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:04

Thanks for confusing me . . lol

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:10

cont:



Re the Metaphysical question... the proof would lean to such a Being because the overwhelming evidence is one of design... do not confuse this with evolution which nearly all modern philosophers now see as bunkum, after all when exactly did we stop evolving etc etc.



Philosophically it then becomes a question of how you personally interpret or accept such a design, some choose Faith others are still searching.

Some accept God created this world of ours in six days others don't etc.

DC has a problem with this... he has neither faith nor the desire to search which is his personal choice and is fine.



For me it is simple, I learnt a long time ago that a little wisdom far outweighs any amount of languages I may speak or knowledge attained over the years.

As they say "An ounce of wisdom is worth a ton of knowledge."



Hope this helps answer the question you asked me, regards... Joseph

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:17

joseph



Good try!



The question of whether there is a God/Divine Creator is purely in the mind of the individual. There has never been any actual/verifiable evidence.



To me, all religion is purely organised superstition, some of it very well organised I have to admit and respect from a business perspective!



However, there are currently over 600 'Gods' amongst differing belief systems.



What is even stranger is that there are over 30,000 differing Christian belief systems alone.



Now, if you only believe that 'your' God is the one and only and the other 599 are false,...



you are only one more 'God' away from being an atheist.



599/1 seems pretty poor odds to me.



Rob

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:22

What about the Agnostics?

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:24

Agnostics are hedging their bets!

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:30

Hi Rob, fair point but...



If everyone living in TRNC was to look up at 5 Finger Mountains and describe what they see you would have thousands of different descriptions... agreed

But you would not argue because there were so many descriptions the mountains were not there ?



In a sense you have answered your own question... from cavemen's drawings on walls to the Michelangelo's sistine chapel... there is an innate sense in men to aspire to the truth, truth is immutable... unchangeable, whereas men i.e.human beings, are... hence the great degree of differences... we all see the mountains differently... but they are still there.



Regards Joseph

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:39

Joseph?....I note you are a staff nurse.



How do you rationalise an all loving God with the disease , handicap and injury you have to deal with on a daily basis.....much of it inflicted upon devout Christians?



If you start talking about Heaven,and it being a better place,then don't waste your breath.

Cabbie


Joined: 30/01/2009
Posts: 95

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:40

In the words of a very wise man







Victor medrew



I don't BELIEVE IT lol

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:42

too heavy for me....





Nick

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:43

I'm not getting involved - I've seen the light!

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:47

joseph



90%+ of NC would ascribe the creation and beauty of the mountains to Allah & Mohammed. Some would ascribe it to Evolution. Some to the Turtles on Elephants backs.



There is no way any individual belief system can claim that it is all the work of their 'preferred Creator'.



Those mountains have been there for millions of years and will be probably for many more. Long after I'm dead & gone, feeding the daisies.



That's mans role in life, any dream of a next life/heaven, is purely an invention to give certain people a sense of purpose and comfort.



Do you believe that Muslim Suicide bombers go to 'Heaven' with 70+ Virgins awaiting them?



That's no more 'cookie' than Christians views of their invented Heaven.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:49

ROBnJO....."Those mountains have been there for millions of years"



Joseph would probably disagree and say no more than 4000 years.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:51

Atheism is for non believers as far as I am concerned.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:51

Hi C... My wife is the staff nurse not I



Hey guys... I never claimed I was God and would answer all your questions

and a question like that is tough because it has been asked time and time again and I don't know anyone with the answer except..... you know Who.



Food for thought?



I have a friend who is totally blind, he has never blamed God or anyone else and yet I can tell you he lives a fulfilling life and if anything is an example to all those, who can see, around him.



My wife for many years worked with downsyndrome babies and children. She has always maintained they were the most beautiful and loving children it has been her priviledge to work with. It seemed to her they gave far more than they received. How do I explain this diversity, suffering etc I don't know?



Last thought... if we were born to be happy we would not die.



Regards Joseph

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:56

......because it has been asked time and time again and I don't know anyone with the answer except..... you know Who.



Joseph, thats a good line...made me chuckle...

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 17:57

Rob... another of the great disciplines of the ancients was logic.



They taught if you begin a study/argument keep to the point for once you diverse the argument is lost



I mentioned the mountains in my analogy to prove they were there not who created them... but you did not answer the original question... despite the differing views are the mountains there or not... keep to the point



As to their creation that is a different thesis which you may or may not want to consider/discuss.



Regards Joseph

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 18:13

This is nice...an actual grown up conversation with lots of interesting ideas and food for thoughts, with no condescending or patronising...



I knew there was a reason why i like to come to this site!!



xx

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 18:14

joseph



With respect, I did answer your question, I see mountains, everyone sees the same mountains, regardless of belief system.



All I would add, is that when my life as an atheist is over, I will accept such as terminality.



Most theists however, especially Christians, inform me that unless I have 'returned to Jesus/God' etc, I will spend Eternity in Torment in the Lakes of Fire, together with other 'non-believers, gays, lesbians'. What about my dog? I understand he won't be allowed into your 'heaven' either! That's not very nice!



When you die, I as an atheist, accept you will die. I don't threaten you with any purgatory or agony.



I think atheists are a lot more 'christian' than any Christians.

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 18:36

message 19



very interesting theory...no religion...no war...no hell...etc i guess one could go on...

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 19:48

Again Rob... keep to the point... re mountains it was an analogy... go back read my original post to your original question as you keep diversifying ... you have moved from your original question is there a God to: Christian beliefs, Agnostics,Religion, Superstitions,Muslim suicide bombers, Gays, Lesbians, Purgatory, Hell and even your dog



Now you know why the ancients insisted their pupils must first study the discipline of logic before all else, from that flowed Metaphysics,Mathematics, Philosphy, Theology,The Arts, etc etc Otherwise you end up with the old my dad can fight your dad syndrome



Re your dog, interestingly Christ was a carpenter and many carpenters make kennels... he was in the end... just looking for joiners



Regards Joseph

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 20:24

Joseph...that link was enormously powerful...



place your bets please... evens says she'l be meeting her maker by midnight!!

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 20:25

: http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 20:34

joseph



I have re-read your post 7 with the mountains analogy and answered it previously and adequately. If you cannot accept my response, that is of course your option.



Let's be honest here, your whole remit is to promote your personal belief in your personally chosen god out of the 600 available and your (I presume) christian belief from the 30,000 available.



Could it actually be you who is trying to divert the conversation that you initiated?



That is a ploy often used by Scientologists and YEC's, even previously by Branch Davidians. All of whom were jolly good christians.



It doesn't wash with me.



So. to revert to your last post, rather than diversify, why would my dog not be eligible for your 'heaven'??



Please don't diversify into 'carpenters' again. I would like a concise reply.



Rob

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 21:43

Hi Rob,



I think your truer self is coming through here. I endeavoured to answer a question you put to me in what I thought would be an honest debate. Now you are making accusations which are a little silly



Let me just check your last post... I answered for reasons of self promotion...

It is ploy by me who may or may not be a scientologist, Davidian etc



I tried to explain "belief" in a step by step set of answers never waivering far from the subject matter whereas I think you would agree you are all over the place? Finally... where have I ever suggested your dog or anyone else would or would not go to Heaven, as you put it, this was not my statement but something you threw into the mix for reasons you only know?



So let me put your mind at rest... your dog will go to Heaven... and don't let anyone tell you different... is that concise enough...



And ... please God... you'll join him



Regards Joseph

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 21:59

Joseph.....if you ARE a scientologist,might it be a good idea to declare your hand to validate your arguments?



Don't worry....we know that not all Scientologists are as nuts as Tom Cruise !

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 22:06

joseph



Well here's a funny thing!



I have discussed 'Heaven' with numerous and various 'Christians' for years. They have all categorically stated that as animals are basically 'dumb' and therefore have no concept of God/jesus, they will not be admitted to 'heaven'.



I presume you are either from yet another christian 'splinter' group, or just offering anything going on a 'recruitment' drive.



Starting to call my views 'a little silly' is admittedly a ploy used continuosly by christians when they are a bit stumped as to why Billions of people do not agree with them.



As an atheist I consider myself to be loving, caring, sharing, generous and with a good set of natural moral values, not those dictated to me by any individual religion.



I have no need for any 'Invisible' means of support.



In which case,... I presume you are convinced I will spend 'eternity' in torment or the 'Lakes of Fire'. Correct?



p.s. Our dog died 3 months ago, where is he? Heaven? Hell? Limbo?

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 22:18

Hi Cronos.. I am Roman Catholic.



But again Cronos I never answered Robs question to promote my beliefs or condemn anyone elses. The question was if there was no God would everyone be an Atheist? If you read my thread you will see I remained with that very question: God or no God?



But I think Rob is struggling with the metaphysical question of such a deity of and in itself. Whether you are Christian, Muslim, Jew or Hindu does not enter the arena... these are philosphical arguments/considerations. That was my analogy re mountains... Rob was considering the view... not its existence?



Can you follow me... if you believe in an Infinite being then you can consider where to take such a belief on your own personal journey through life, albeit you may tread the road of Christianity or whatever.



If on the other hand you cannot accept that same possibilty ... an Infinite Being...then faith plays no part in your considerations ... how can it ... you don't believe?



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 22:31

Hi Rob, you say you are loving, caring, sharing and generous... I have no doubt of this and I would not hesitate to accept you as such.



Ok I will diversify from the original question... you say you have spoken to many Christians and they claim your dog etc cannot go to Heaven because it is just a dumb animal... then put your original argument to them and ask them to prove it, they can't



You see Rob this is the point... this is not the question does God exist but ..... for those who believe how do they believe? There are as you say many different vehicles within which that Faith is placed, often referred to as religion.

And if some say things that you find hurtful when recalling all those years of friendship with your dog then you are right, you are more Christian than they?



And for that... God bless you... Joseph

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 22:35

Rob,...... 'struggling'??



You wish!



To return to the original question,...



it is logical that if there was no god, we would all be atheist, as is the other 99% of life forms on this planet.



I have had similar discussions on BB's which have lasted for months. I dont want to clog up this board with such discussions, life is too short,.. so will withdraw.



Joseph, if you feel you want to make any further comments on your own, please feel free.



Have a good night all



Rob

kenny



Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 405

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 22:48

would there not have to be a god before you

could become an atheist !

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 23:35

A zebra went to Heaven. He wandered the plains of Heaven, talked to the Angels, played with all the happy souls who had ascended there. Then a deep unhappiness crept into his heart, it was a crisis of indentity. He went to see St. Peter who had noticed the zebra had been troubled of late.



"What is it, my zebra friend?" St Peter asked him.

The zebra replied,

"I don't know if I am a white horse with black stripes or a black horse with white stripes!"



"That's a tricky one," St Peter replied, "its beyond my reasoning, I think you will have to speak to God."



So the zebra trotted off and found God standing by a wide river that flowed through the plains of Heaven.



"Zebra!" God cried, "what is it? You look troubled."



"I'm sorry, God, but I don't know if I am a white horse with black stripes or a black horse with white stripes!"



God replied, "Zebra, you are what you are!"



Zebra trotted off totally confused and on his way he met St Peter.

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 23:42

"Well", said St Peter,"did God give you your answer?"



"He did", said Zebra, "but I don't understand it".



"What did he say?" asked St Peter.



"Well, when I asked him if I was a black horse with white stripes or a white horse with black stripes, he just said, you are what you are."



"Well then", said St Peter, "that's easy, you are a white horse with black stripes."



"How so?" asked the zebra.



"Well zebra, if you had been a black horse with white stripes, he would have said,



you is what you is, boy!"



Lem

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
05/02/2009 23:45

*laughs guiltily.....hides golliwog badges *

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
06/02/2009 00:04

I just get such a warm feeling knowing my pet guinea pigs will be joining me in the hereafter and Wanda, my goldfish.



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/Lemtich/see-fido-book-200-amazon.jpg



Lem

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
06/02/2009 00:22

Hi Rob,

I never said your views were silly... I said accusing me of ulterior motives were silly, this is what I mean by going off the subject matter...



Anyway it has been good debating with you and am happy to see the thread close...



Regards to all, Joseph