house of commons report

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 11:26

Apologies for starting a new thread and not referring to an earlier posting on this topic. I just couldn't be bothered to trawl through the old communications.



It has been stated on this board, that Greece plays no part in GC politics, let alone having any involvement in day to day affairs. Christofias has often stated that he wants the island to be run by the Cypriots, free from foreign intervention.



Looking at this report, and I had to do so several times, I read the following which astonished me. Surely the House of commons committee have made a mistake on page 9, under the heading of 'Security, and the roles of Turkey and Greece'



"In the South are the Cyprus National guard which is a force of 12,500 strong, backed up by 60,000 reservists. Most of it's commanders are from mainland Greece."



What! The Cyprus army is being run by mainland Greek generals.

Does this in anyway influence Turkish army policy?

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 11:35

ilovecyprus this is a point that was made to mmmmmm which of course he trashedl a few days ago...lol.



There are more Greek army reservists than TC's ....

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 11:38

msg3



thanks Dee and apologies that it has already been discussed

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 12:53

msg 3 ..please dont apologise it was only mentioned in another thread and it is always good to have a thread dedicated to important issues like this one.

BigBen


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 12:58

According to the 1960 agreement between TC, GC and the garantor states. There were about 650 Turkish & about 1400 Greek soldiers.



Between 1964 to 1974 there were over 20,000 greek soldiers. In addition to the GC army, of which Greece officers was traning and comanding.



Since 1974, borth Greece and Turkey has about 30,000 soldiers each.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 13:05

Dear IloveCyprus



re msg 3



Interesting the "slant" Dee (and Waz) would have you believe I put on the report ...



You'll perhaps note that Dee is now quoting my observation that the report is "flawed" re the low quoted numbers of GC reservists ..







Dee does that mean you accept my observations re the TR troops figure being under quoted, too ? ;)...



HOW can I be rubbishing a report when you are quoting my observations as if accepted ?! :o

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 14:06

Dear MM



I have looked at the report, although very interesting, it lacks the compelling insights that the recent CEPS report offers.

Clearly, some of the figures quoted for military numbers seem contrary to other communications. Not sure though, if this damages the overall credibility and worthiness of this paper.



It would be interesting to know for sure if Greek commanders do indeed control the GC military. If so, GC combat units fall under the strategic imperative of the Greek military. Combine this fact with the recent military hardware acquisitions made by the GC's and you start to wonder what the TR military is making of this. I would presume it bolsters their justification for staying on the island and makes a settlement that much harder to achieve.

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 14:28

The Spartans were the last effective military unit the Greek army had!!!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 17:31

Hi IloveCyprus



re msg 7



1/ The Greeks train the RoC "National Guard" .. there numbers are mainly made up of Officers and NCOs



2/ They certainly DO NOT control the "military"



3/ It is indeed a shame the RoC spent all that money on new Russian tanks when it would be better served on their National Health



Let's be honest.. the GCs know they can't stop the 2nd biggest - by man power Military service in Nato .. EVERYONE knows you need to be able to control the SKIES and I hardly think it would take long to "wipe out" the Helicopters and spotter planes..



re msg 8 Karakum5c .. tell that to the Italians in Albania .. !!

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 19:03

tell that to the Italians in Albania .. !!



Yeah, thats some standard to compete with!

My dog,on a good day, could have beaten the Italians in Albania.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 21:28

Dear Girne_29 re msg 10



I wonder if you know that the Grek victory over the Italians was achieved with a smaller force, and that it was the first Allied land victory of the Second World War. It was widely celebrated by the Allies as a "morale booster".



Some historians even argue that it may have decided the course of WWII as it made Germany delay the invasion of the Soviet Union, in order to assist the Italians overcome Greece.



This delayed attack subjected the Germans to endure the harsh Russian winter ( for which they weren't equipped ) leading to their defeat at the Battle of Moscow and Stalingrad..



NOT.. the most intelligent remark you could have made.. But you learnt something..



What was Turkey doing?.. well it "sat on the fence" - admirably protecting Jews, who found it a sanctuary and joined with the Allies for the last seven months..

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 21:45

Mark the mod never realised till now congratulations,

Paul.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 22:55

Hi Paul, 'forum admin' mate. I move papers about

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 00:39

There certainly seems tyo be some discrepency concerning numbers and possible ethenticity of some military personel.



What is very clear as mmmm states.

The Turkish army is the second largest in Nato and consequently commands a level of brute respect. The ROC on the other hand is simply not up to much and are extremely glad be able to play the EU membership card in any threatening situations.



Nevertheless Turkey is and will certainly remain a decision influencer in the region, not only because of its clear military strength but also because of its rising economic strength and of course its strategic position. The EU and UN cannot afford to allienate Turkey from its current liason with Europe and the USA. To loose Turkey as a strategic ally would significantly reduce western ability to respond quickly to trouble in the middle east.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 02:28

generally agree with waz msg 14 with one exception:

neither the eu and nato are totally monolithic:



turkey is a most valuable nato member though some nato members

are very antagonistic , notably france and greece

but there is a limit on what to expect of turkey in a middle east context,

eg they refused to help the us invade iraq



due partly to a jobs shortage in the eu, some elements do not want to encourage turkish immigration and hopes for membership, while at the same time fearing the consequences of any turkish reorientation "eastward"



although europe by the 21st century appears "semi-secular"

nonetheless a gut feeling still persists that "real" europe is "really" christian



it is perfectly true that what the gc government lacks in local military muscle

it tries to make up for in subtle manoevering and blatant string pulling

with an eu that is more or less on side already...

yet the eu would "see itself" as unbiased fair and understanding towards all



andre

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 09:47

Dear Waz re msg 14



Yes, TR is big and powerful and a "needed" ally in the region.. REALPOLITIK at play.. side with the guy who will be a "winner" .. even if it means ignoring a few moral issues..



That might have been the "old game".. but new game - EU membership - says you sign up to be a member of the club - and you don't treat one member any different to the rest...





I want TR in the EU, but it will be the one to comply with EU club rules..



Dear Andre re msg 15



Greece WANTS TR in the EU VERY badly ( it doesn't like being the eastern most continental member - having to handle all those illegals .., and has washed it's hands of the CY problem - handing it to the EU, instead.



France, Netherlands, Austria and may be Germany are TR's "problem" - not Greece or Cyprus.



Doubts ( reasonable) remain as to TRs ability to comply with all HR requirements and the role of the military.



TR agreed to the rules, and it is TR's move.. if it complies, game over..they'

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 01:14

"New game","old game"........get real! The ONLY game in town is who has the biggest economy and the biggest armed forces........Uncle Sam is the shiniest example of that! Turkey has the second largest forces in NATO and has been closely allied with the US since the days of the Marshall plan,post WW2.

The EU recognise the strategic importance,the military strength,the untapped natural resources and the political will of Turkey to become part of the club.10 chapters are open,1 is closed already and many are being worked on towards resolution and accession to full EU membership.It has been an Associate member of the EEC(as it was then)since 1959 and formally applied for full membership to the EEC in 1987.The Turkish goverment supported the UN backed Annan Plan for Cyprus in 2004,and the GC side was admitted to the club a year later after it voted against the Annan plan.Mainland Greece has a very questionable HR record,and it pretends that its previous military juntas' hands are bloodfree

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 20:19

mmmm

"NOT.. the most intelligent remark you could have made.. But you learnt something.. "



Was being tongue in cheek. In Russia the Italians fought with extreme bravery and

in many cases, to the last man.as by the way ,did the Spanish





Outcome of ww2 was decided when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, even if he had got to Moscow ,would have made no difference in the long run , industrial base already transferred east of the Urals. Germany did not have the manpower to maintain a hold on europe ,plus the treatment of the Slavs destroyed any internal support.

As for the Italians causing the mess, what decided Hitler to invade the Balkans was the Yugoslav military faction overthrowing the Govt that was allied with Italy and Germany .Greece/italy was merely another delay. Greater delay was Hitler changing objectives



While accepting that Wikipedia is a good thing,nothing beats listening to those that lived in those times,as did my and I am sure your ladyfriends family.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 20:36

ilovecyprus

"In the South are the Cyprus National guard which is a force of 12,500 strong, backed up by 60,000 reservists. Most of it's commanders are from mainland Greece."



You need to talk to Juliet about that, he/she reckons only 2000.

Why am I not surprised.

AJ

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:42

Dear Clarets, re msg 17



Most of us are well aware that the US want TR in the EU.. but they aren't IN that club.. !



It can't have escaped your attention that other states that started off the "race" for membership have overtaken TR.



The Annan plan was voted on in April 2004 and Cyprus ( all of it !) joined a MONTH later ... ( with the "Turkish zone" - where the govt do not exercise effective control - the acquis coordinaire suspended - north of the "green line" and special Green Line rules implemented )



Not sure why you mention Greece - as we are talking about TURKEY and why it's refusal to obey the Ankara Protocol -that it signed up to - has resulted in the deliberate slowing down Chapter "hurdles".



The Ankara Protocol is the bit that TR has to allow ALL EU member states to use it's ports and airspace..



It is a little "late" to claim TR doesn't "recognise the RoC".. it signed the protocol.. it even managed to "recognise" it for the Eurovision song contest ;)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:44

Dear AJ re msg 19



I reckon even 2 K is a bit high for the Greeks.. and the National guard reservist figure is WAY underestimated.. most fit men under (50 ish?) are reservists...

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:54

Dear Girne_29, re msg 18



I'm WELL aware that "Wiki " is only as accurate as the person who writes a page, thanks



Luckily, as you suggest, I've had the honour of meeting veterans from France, Poland, Soviet Forces, Cypriots and British folk.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:45

mmmm



Didnt mean soldiers, meant the families ,men women and children who lived thro those times and survived and to whom survival meant more than surviving the battle.



A russian author,I think, once said that an alien studying the history of Europe would conclude that Hitler was a tyrant in the Stalin era.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 00:53

clarets:



''The Turkish goverment supported the UN backed Annan Plan for Cyprus in 2004,and the GC side was admitted to the club a year later after it voted against the Annan plan.''



If this is a cut and paste job I'd check my sources if I were you. Cyprus was accepted into the EU in May 2004 (wrongly IMO) and voted against Annan the same year.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 01:07

I dont have to rely on the "cut & paste" jobs yourself and mmmmm revel in.Again......you missed THE point entirely ! Turkey has control of the TRNC.Cyprus may be part of the EU,but the EU does not have control of anything that happens in the TRNC......just keep telling yourself that when you fall asleep!Your inhibitory neurone really is the dominant one in your head!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 01:10

Msg 20 mmm,got stuck with pasting Wiki again have we?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 01:13

clarets: ''Your inhibitory neurone really is the dominant one in your head''



Blinking flip, doc. Will that sort out the hairs on my palms? ;)

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 02:02

No Macha......you'll just have to keep shaving them!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 09:50

Girne_29 re msg 23



"Didnt mean soldiers "..nor did *I*.. How about a 15 yr old girl who fought both the Germans and Russians in Warsaw, or her 17 yr old future husband who was a German PoW and escaped to fight with the Germans..?



The Lady has written the book in Polish and I'm waiting for it to be translated into English



Reading a book " History of the Second War" by Liddell Hart.. only on the third chapter.. but it appears to be the BEST book I've ever read on WW2

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 10:02

Dear Clarets re 25 / 26



Both Macha and I were "on the ground" in 2003/4 - no need to "cut and paste" to correct your patent lack of Cyprus knowledge..and inability to "debate" without it..!



" Cyprus may be part of the the EU, but the EU does not have control of anything that happens in the TRNC......just keep telling yourself that when you fall asleep!"



Well, now you are just showing that you aren't aware of how the EU works, either...



The Member states normally governs it's territory.. The fact that the member state doesn't control 37% of it's territory hasn't gone "unnoticed" ..



That MIGHT be WHY Turkey has 1,400 cases before the ECHR - which CAN influence TR, as TR is a member of that "club"..



Oh, I forgot, the ECHR must be a bunch of "bigots", as they say that the RoC Land Registry is primary reference point for deciding ownership..





ET is in the building..