what happens when

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 16:30

What happens when the Orams loose their case ?



Nick

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 16:32

and who is going to move them out!?

MaggieAndBernie



Joined: 26/07/2008
Posts: 2012

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 16:32

Surely you mean 'if' not 'when' ....the fat lady hasn't sung yet!

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 16:44

Note to NN - I don't think you get 10 stars for 2000 posts

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 17:34

When the Orams lose their case, which, by the time it has gone to every court there is to go, will be in about 10 years time, I guess for them it will spell the end of their dream in the trnc.



For the rest of us, we'll all end up in the same courts and in a further 10 years time most of us will be long gone....

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 17:48

Dear No1 Doyen..



re msg 6



We can expect the Orams' case to be answered by the ECJ in the autumn - at the latest - Then Mr Apostolides can ask for an enforcement order.. If he gets that without too much issue.. and he SHOULD.. then he can get a charging order on the UK asset.. it doesn't take long...



Hopefully, it won't come to that - as the CY Talks should be well advanced by then.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 18:47

Will not Apostolides/ROC have to pursue the UK assets regardless of the talks,as I dont think the EU court would take kindly to the ROC using them as a tool .The case was not based on whether the talks would be successful or not,and the ECHR will base its judgement on the legal right of the ROC rather, than the politcal agenda.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 21:48

just can't see how anyone in the UK (or the rest of Europe for that matter) would buy a holiday home here, for fear of their main residence being put under attack from legal action....



What a mess...



Nick

Corinium


Joined: 23/03/2008
Posts: 58

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 22:25

Really, can you honestly EVER see anyone having to sell their house in England to pay off someone who owned property 30 years previously and who is simply trying to make money.



Get real - The EU would never allow this ballon to go up. However loud the so called 'disaffected owners' scream.



Don't lose sight of common sense

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 22:33

msg10



"someone who owned property 34yrs ago" & still do own it!!!! you obviously don`t understand the cypriot culture, it`s his land & he is entitled to do whatever he please`s with it! maybe he wants to build a house on HIS land for his children or maybe he wants to hand it down to his family which is the norm in cyprus.....



what would you do in his situation if you owned land & suddenly you found out someone had built on it????

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 22:35

mess 10 - There is a credit crunch, you are worried about loosing your job, it'd hard to raise cash against the equity in your home - you think about buying a holiday home and are attracted to North Cyprus, but you then read about the implications of the Orams case....



You wouldn't would you ?



for once it doesn't affect me - all i have in the uk is an old sofa round my Ma's house - Mr Popodopolas is more than welcome to it...





Nick



ps: good post though - kinda makes sense, but very often the law doesn't make any sense (that's why the lawyer advising the judges has advised to side with the Greek Cypriots).

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 22:36

Go after the persons who gave you the permission to build?

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 22:40

I'm afraid that mmmm is right. Once the ECJ gives it's ruling, the UK courts have to follow that judgement. Mr A can if he gets a favourable judgement, ask the UK court to enforce that judgement. If that happens you can imagine the worldwide publicity if that means the Orams having to sell their home. Likewise, what about a Spanish judgement being enforced against a defaulting UK holiday home owner who can't afford to pay the mortgage on their holiday home but owns a home in the UK?

Corinium


Joined: 23/03/2008
Posts: 58

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 22:44

Juliet



If you are going to quote my post, at least have the decency to quote accurately before offering your own comments. You have simply twisted my comments in order to post an argument of your own. It does your credibility no good at all and displays a marked bias and a reluctance to listen to reasoned argument. Not a good trait.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 22:48

msg 15



where have i twisted your comments? it would be nice to see an anwser to my question though? please

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 23:00

What land title is the Orams house on?

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
11/02/2009 23:05

THer is a distinct possibility that the ECJ will find in favour of Mr Apostolides who seeks to have an ROC Court Judgment enforced in the UK where the Orams have assets that couls be ceased if they fail to meet the ROC Order.



However, the issue is by no means over. I suspect that the Orams team is already preparing an application to the House of Lords.

It is already the Case that the UK High Court dismissed Mr Aposolides application because of a failure to follow specific and fair legal protocol when issuing the writ.

The judgment awarded to Mr Apostolides was one of default because the Orams failed to make representation to the Court.

Advocate General to the ECJ has recommended that the original default order is legally correct and that it can be enforced in the UK.



A very poor recomendation in my view. The ROC is clearly biased against the TRNC and anyone associated with same. How could anyone expect an unbiased and fair judgment from any ROC court that judges upon the TRNC.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 01:02

Juliet

Message 11



Quite agree ,they probably do want their land back, understandibly so. though you make out the GC's to be some saintly group ,unique in the world,who would not deign to have anything to do with giving up the land for money,but instead wish only to pass it on to their kids.



Heres a little prophesy,should they ever get the land back and they get the chance to make a buck ,watch the rush to unload those oh so sacred lands.



As for the Orams case,the ROC should have waited ,but no, they chose the courts, so be it.I for one would have accepted my place being handed back in any agreement ,thats life and to be honest would not make much difference to me. Now , any agreement will be watched by us to ensure that no EU law is broken, first hurdle would be the anti discrimination laws.

Eventually maybe, the land will be returned ,but not before I am dead and the lawyers have become millionaires. I have moved from a position of acceptance to one of childish spite,

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 00:34

Hello Corinium,you are correct,and so is Girne 29.mmmmm thinks that court enforcements and charging orders follow suit in the case of the judgement against the Orams,quickly. He obviously doesnt operate in circles au fait with the jurisprudence system currently operating in the UK.

Even senescent judges do not remove people from their rightful homes to compensate a GC(or anyone else for that matter)because someone built a villa on a piece of scrub with a lemon tree on it,even if he did own it 35 years ago,and still claims he does.One of the problems with such tracts of land,is,that when it is annexed by a superior force of occupation,it actually becomes their land.This has happened all throughout the history of our species.......we even made Neaderthal extinct. Who,s to say that the original Ottomans,Byzantines,Phoenicians and their descendants dont have claims to land all over Cyprus.....after all, they have been forces of occupation at various times in its history!

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:59

clarets



you keep going on about bit`s of scrubland with a lemon tree on it! WHY? is it because your house is built on a bit of scrubland with no lemon tree!!



Sorry Clarets but even 35 yrs later that bit of land as you put it belongs to a gc, or a tc if they have land on the south, & it`s nobodys buissness except theres what they do with it in the future, good luck to them if they sell it & set themselves up for life, wouldn`t you in there shoes?

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:08

bulldozers and skips for hire ,north or south email me for quotes

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:39

Clarets



Whilst ever you dismiss this as a bit of scrub land with a lemon tree on it, you will never grasp the true extent of the problem. Its more to do with principles, retribution, honour, justice and even revenge. To the GC's even if it is insignificant in terms of value and plays no part in their long term housing plans, it's their land and they are demanding ownership.



If it truly meant nothing more than scrub land to them, they would have settled with the Immovable Property Commission by now.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:40

well said bradus

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:49

hope the poor tcs get the same rub of the green then eh?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:56

goes without saying rowlo, did you not read the end of my post msg22.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:03

sorry juliet just scrolledback ,youre msg 20 i think , fair enough

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:05

Read this re the Orams:



http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2006/2226.html

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:11

girne29:



''...first hurdle would be the anti discrimination laws.''



First one being no here today, gone tomorrow foreigner can expect to squat ın my home and not have me take him to court and break him in two, leaving him wishing he'd never been born.



Because let's face it folks, decent and law-abiding people as we are, that's exactly what we'd do if we found someone trying to by and sell OUR elderly parent's property.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:16

Julıe3t:



''Sorry Clarets but even 35 yrs later that bit of land as you put it belongs to a gc, or a tc if they have land on the south, & it`s nobodys buissness except theres what they do with it in the future, good luck to them if they sell it & set themselves up for life, wouldn`t you in there shoes?''



Abso-blooming-lutely. It's what our fathers and grandfathers fought for, isn't it? Justice and democracy in the world - and they beat the fascists.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:18

msg28 yeah pikey/macha thats why the turkish army is here to stop you lot doing just that?

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:31

The Orams case outcome is, as many have indicated, not yet decided. The ROC stance upon property issues is clearly now leaning very much towards civil litigations. The massive development boom of 2004-2006 in the TRNC has prompted this action.



When the ROC rejected the Anan plan of 2004, the TRNC gave it a yes vote.

The immediate expectation was that the TC were keen to settle and the TRNC should be judged as co-operative and should consequently be awarded a higher level of recognition and respect by the international community. This did in part result.



The ROC has lost out (politically)a great deal since 2004 and their political hand has deteriorated and weakened. Development in the TRNC has continued and the region has gone from strength to strength.



The political failure of the ROC has driven that government to clutch at the civil litigation straw in property matters.

It is very unlikely indeed that the end result will lead to as good a deal that was on the table in 2004.

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:35

Rowlo,

Message 30, Spot on mate summed it up in one sentence pikey/macha not a good advert for the GC propaganda machine.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:44

msgs 30/ 32,



Just keep re-assuring yourselves, guys. It's what I hear some folks doing every day ın-between conviction and sentencing.



Sometimes final sentence does get deferred for a while...

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:47

and some times idiots like you get convicted, re 1974

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:52

Message 33,

And in terms of you my friend so does JUSTICE............

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 00:48

Msg 29....it appears fascists are still alive and well.......in the form of GC's.That military junta and the next coup are never very far away .....are they?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 01:23

clarets,



Admittedly some of the fascists are still around down south but they have no credibility or real support now. Greece and Turkey get on OK now and Athens will not and could not try another attack on Cyprus like July 74. Dıctatorships are so 70s and all that.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 05:51

i know lots of people here purchased the so called exchange land, but put the boot on the other foot and how would you feel?

i would fight for my property/land back if it were stolen from me and i guess most other people would.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 08:50

Dear Donty re msg 27



Your link reflects Judge Jacks interpretation of Protocol 10. "OLD news"..



Since then this case has gone to the European Court of Justice, and the

Advocate General to the ECJ ( who was asked for her LEGAL view on this case ) has recommended that the original RoC Court order is legally correct and that it can be enforced in the UK.



It is VERY rare that an AG's legal advice is ignored.. but *IF* there is a settlement...



re 18, Girne_29



This case is not that of the RoC.. it was brought by a private individual - I'm sure this isn't the first time you've heard me point out that Mr Apostolidies was "crying" in the media for help from the govt..with the high costs of the case..



re 19, Clarets



"mmm thinks that court enforcements and charging orders follow suit in the case of the judgement against the Orams,quickly. He obviously doesnt operate in circles au fait with the jurisprudence system currently operating in the UK. "



We will see who is co

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 08:52

(cont) who is correct...



Hey NN re msg 1



Bet you are "enjoying" all this... a bit like throwing groundbait into a small pond of hungry fish ;)

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 11:59

mmmm you cannot seriously beleive that Mr Apostilades is mounting this case all by himself? You might never trace it back to the actual government but there are factions a lot bigger than Mr A. Likewise Mr & Mrs Orams have a lot of friends.



Clarets is correct in suggesting that the difficulties for Mr A will not start until he tries to get posession through an English court of an Englishman's castle. Better men than him have failed miserably.



The easiest way for those who are paranoid regarding this situation is to have British property in the name of one partner and TRNC property in the name of the other, or children's names.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 20:24

pretty sure they will loose - then the flood gates will open....



Popodopulus anyone ?





nick

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 20:58

macha message 28



"First one being no here today, gone tomorrow foreigner can expect to squat ın my home and not have me take him to court and break him in two, leaving him wishing he'd never been born.







Because let's face it folks, decent and law-abiding people as we are, that's exactly what we'd do if we found someone trying to by and sell OUR elderly parent's property."



Thanks Macha, glad you are at least honest and dont hide behind the"we only want to be friends with the TC's" excuse. I hope the TC's on exchange and TMD land take note of your sentiments and note the no compromise on the land issue.Maybe your Govt should be as honest as yourselves and stop messing around.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 08:48

Dear BreezyBoy re msg 41



"mmmm you cannot seriously beleive that Mr Apostilades is mounting this case all by himself?"



I can only repeat that he was ASKING for help and the govt said they couldn't help..



Claret, and by inference you, will have to wait and see what happens re the ECJ. But it is SIMPLE to get a judgement in another EU Country enforced in another..



That "dodge" to protect your assets has already been suggested, but I wonder when the penny might drop re WHY you might be having to consider such things...

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 12:09

Hi mmmm

Have you started to beleive what governments say? It usually isn't what they mean or actually do, behind the backs of the voters. I am sure you could never trace it back to them in this case.

The best quote so far in this - It aint over till the fat lady sings, which could be a long time in the future.

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 13:27

mmm



The Orams won their case in the UK courts - Aposto lost his!



Now he has one last try. So far 1-0 to the Orams.



You have posted 843 times in less than 2 months, thats about 14 posts a day, every day, without a break, wow!!! Are you sure this isn't a job for you?



Why do you invest so much of your time in trying to push the GC cause/arguement? You dont live here, have property here, What's in it for you?

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 13:41

DONTY I have asked him the exact same question...what's in it for him...his greek paymaster I would wager ..

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 13:42

Clarets ..msg 36, I have been reading through and was about to post the same thing you have, fascism is alive and well and breeding in the south

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 14:54

time will tell........................

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 17:36

girne 29 msg 43,



My posting was not aimed at TCs but at British and Turkish settlers. Cypriots have little to fear as they are citizens and will be protected and/or compensated if they have to vacate property post-settlement.



However, foreign settlers such as Turks and Brits have been rightly recognised as a barrier to settlement and must be dealt with. Outside a compensation scenario, those who have pitched up on a displaced Cypriot's property will most likely be obliged to quit in large numbers.



Turkey will be legally responsible for repatriating Turkish citizens, but the Brits will be on their own.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 17:39

Macha...."obliged to quit "



Is that without consent , legal redress,or at the very least compensation?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 17:55

cronos,



I'm hugely simplifying the scenario but I would imagine the small print would not have a lot of leeway for second home owners, which most Brits with a foothold in north Cyprus are.



I don"t see how compensation would apply to people who knowingly broke the laws of Cyprus by taking personal advantage of an illegal administration. Bear in mind the settlement taks are with the leaders of the two communities in Cyprus. Nowhere at all is the "TRNC" recognised as a country with its own laws.



The catch-all for this is the widely-publicised warning from the British government about buying property in the north. Because of the ongoing settlement talks it was recently updated to leave no shadow of a doubt about what people were getting themselves into.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 18:03

Macha....fortunately for me I chose to go down the Pre-74 turkish title route,so it doesn't so much apply in my case ,but I have often wondered whether ignoring the FCO advice would be seen in some measure as contributory negligence !

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 18:51

Macha message 50



In that case, will the new Cyprus (EU member) be able to kick out a Brit but not his TC neighbour.Will they go to the ECHR to get a waiver on the EU laws that this would involve breaking.If so would that not set a dangerous precedent .For example could UK also get a waiver and sack all foreign employees in order to prevent a repeat of the industrial unrest we saw?.Could we jail only foreign criminals but not British?

If both TC and Brit are acting illegally how do you think the EU could be convinced that whether the land was lived on illegally or not depended on the ethniticity of the tenant.

Would a ridiculous situation not occur where a Brit would be evicted from his property, but, if he gave that property to a TC then the TC wouldnt be.



Would it not be easier to make the compensation so high that most foreigners would just throw the keys to the nearest TC and bug out.Leaving just TC's and GC's to argue it out.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 09:08

re msg 46 Donty



"The Orams won their case in the UK courts ..Now he has one last try. So far 1-0 to the Oram's" .. you conveniently forget, the Orams' lost in the RoC courts, and Justice Jacks ruling is now at the ECJ.. we don't know the outcome - other than the Advocate General ( legal advisor) saying no LEGAL reason NOT to enforce the RoC judgement in England and Wales.. or any other EU / EEA Court. . We'll see.



re 46/7 Donty / Dee



Why do you invest so much of your time in trying to push the GC cause/arguement? You dont live here, have property here, What's in it for you?



No WONDER my post rate is so high .. 50% of the time I'm explaining that:

1/ my line is that of "fairness" to all Cypriots.. Folk knowingly taking "advantage" of ethnic cleansing asking ME why I post...?!



2/ I hardly think the RoC regard me as an "asset" .. Some GCs think I'm a Turk lover..;)

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 09:55

a lot of my tc friends don't feel that mr t is doing the best for their interests.

i am wondering if mr t, were to give a little and find a solution it may improve the property situation in some way?

maybe he is trying to do a deal,( as at some point it will have to be sorted out.)

with the orams case looming and not looking good.

maybe, now the time is right to get it all sorted?

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 12:34

mmm



'you conveniently forget, the Orams' lost in the RoC courts, and Justice Jacks ruling is now at the ECJ'

Taking out the biased south its 1-0



'No WONDER my post rate is so high .. 50% of the time I'm explaining that:'

Come off it.





'I hardly think the RoC regard me as an "asset" .. Some GCs think I'm a Turk lover'

Pull the other one, they are putting up a statue of you in Makarios Ave.

bachelibelly


Joined: 04/09/2008
Posts: 275

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 12:41

I was standing on the A5( old watling street) the other day and this Roman came up to me and said this is my road ,i built it, now get off it ,i want it back.

However his parting comment on his way to the airport to reclaim half of the EU was that me old mate and sparring partner MMMMMMM will tell you this is irrelevant and a totally different kettle of fish.To which i replied "Was Cleopatra really that hot "