North Cyprus Property Prices

Jessie


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 145

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 09:58

Does anybody know how the resale market is doing at the moment? Are any properties actually selling? The prices I've seen quoted in the For Sale section seem to reflect the falls we've seen across the globe but the prices don't seem to have plumeted as some have feared particularly if you take into account the issues particular to NC in addition to the credit crunch.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 12:12

Jessie



No use looking at the for sale section, its what has actually sold that matters.

You would have to ask an estate agent how much he is selling and at what price rather than how much he is trying to sell.



If you are buying then you will get some rock bottom prices so good time to take a chance.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 12:15

And even at rock bottom prices , be in no doubt that you ARE taking a chance with anything property related in the TRNC.

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:44

Dear Jesse

The only falls I have seen in NC are the ones that were overpriced in the first place.



Expect a good year for sales this summer..expect prices ( realistic ) up by 10 -20 % by the end of summer.



Financial situ in the UK will have greatly eased by then.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:54

dont think anythings selling anywhere jessie, as they say its a buyers market but their aint no buyers,

saucyboy69


Joined: 09/02/2008
Posts: 111

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:55

Stewart,



I like the your positive outlook, BUT 10 to 20% what do you base this on?,, also to say that the financial situation in the UK will have greatly eased by the end of the summer is a little optomistic.



I assume you are active in the TRNC property market?



The current economic dowturn in the UK is far worse than many people believe, job losses are occuring daily and unemployment stands at nearly 2 million and this will continue to rise for at least the next six month's,, most proffesionals in the UK are not looking to see any signs of recovery during 2009, try the first quarter of 2010. Maybe!



Pete,

stewy


Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 279

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:59

Stewart.

I sold up last month. Owned my appartment for 2 years. I lost about a third of my capital plus I threw in my car and furniture.

I am happy with the money I got, as I was sick of the island. Also I was happy to at least get something for my place as the market is stagnant and prices are dropping rapidly.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:23

jessie



stewy,has made my point for me.Doesnt matter what estate agents say or market it at ,its what is being sold and at what price.If prices were expected to go up 20% in 5 or 6 months then all property would be sold out in weeks. If I believed all that we should have doubled the value of our property since 2004

Reckon the loss Stewy made is about right so if you fancy a chance on liking NC,now is the time to buy,On no account buy for investment, and spend what you can afford to lose,.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:26

and dont buy off plan , buy what you can move into in 2/3 months.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:33

Stewart...msg 4



Come on mate...remember where you are.

You're not talking to a room full of wide-eyed innocents who don't know anything about North Cyprus.

Is your 10-20% increase based on the price AFTER the 30% fall ?

We all remember the numerous glossy ads during the boom...."Guaranteed 15% Annual Return On Your Investment"

Has anyone on here achieved that?

I didn't buy my apartment to make money....I'll just be glad to end up owning it with deeds in my name.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:46

Hi Jessie, we just bought in TRNC why, because we wanted to we looked at all the pros and cons and decided that todays market was right for us. We purchased a ready built property that we could walk in and see, we negotiated the price and package and got a deal we are very happy with and did not spend all of our savings (50%), we have not bought for investment or with rose coloured specs I do not nor will I depend on the Island for a living as I work internationally on contract (and I do still need to work), although the wife may open a pamper parlour to keep her occupied. despite all of the advice pos and neg you are the only one who knows what you want, we only recently bought and are very happy we did. To all of you out there that showed us both sides of the coin thank you for all of your advice we completed last week and now like lots of others are awaiting permissions, Kojan etc Inshala!!! in the meantime we will just enjoy our new place.

kenny



Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 405

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:56

good for you Mike & Vinera. ENJOY

ian444


Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 71

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:26

message 11

saints

glad you fond your place did you buy off plan or a resale

did you manage to get any discount off the asking price, excuse me being nosey

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:27

Message 11,

At last positivity!!! if we all listened to some of the negative crap posted on here and all the scaremongering nobody would live or buy in the TRNC. Enjoy your new home in the sun and good luck...........

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 00:14

Hi Ian we bought a new build which was completely finished so we got to see the the final finish which is to a very good standard, yes we got a discount off the asking price, we made an offer and it was accepted and we got some alterations done which were done before we paid and a white goods package as well as Air con package. We had been inside our new place a couple of times before we made our choice and are happy with the deal. We listened to what people said and would not buy anything but the finished product. We could not be happier.

eager


Joined: 23/02/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 01:26

Msg 4....Think you must be a comedian.

fairy



Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 01:45

I have bought what I wanted, for the price I wanted ...No Complaints...as yet my advice is deal as much within the local community. I knew the risks and had far more to contend with in other countries. So up to you..(Read up but not on posts ...just facts.. and remember you are lucky to be able to have the choice) but I love North Cyprus, even if the EU does not.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 05:37

anywhere in the world , if you purchased at the right price and in the right location then you shouldn't have to take a loss.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 10:40

Re Msg 4, Stewart



"Expect a good year for sales this summer..expect prices ( realistic ) up by 10 -20 % by the end of summer.







Financial situ in the UK will have greatly eased by then."



I'm sorry, but a guy who has invested in property in "TRNC" would be expected to say that...



LOVE your optimism re the UK .. are you suggesting all the people who lost their jobs yesterday at say, BMW in Cowley or Swindon, will be back at work ?!



If you turn out to be correct, believe me, I will apologise..

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 10:48

Firestarter message 18 is absolutely right. I know people who have sold a villa in the last couple of weeks and they nearly doubled their initial investment. I think they bought in 2002/2003 off plan.

mia100max


Joined: 19/03/2008
Posts: 404

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 16:51

House next door to ours has just sold this week, only been up for about 2 months so not bad going!

Middle Easter


Joined: 13/06/2007
Posts: 146

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 17:01

Everybody,



Reading the posts in this thread, human nature is the things that shines through. Warren Buffet (spelling?) once said that the 'man in the street' buys & sells at EXACTLY the wrong time. Basically because the momentum of the market is already priced in (or out) as the case may be.



The same applies to the TRNC. Everyone thought the market would go up forever based on the hype that was created. But now everyone thinks the market will drop through the floor because prices have dropped. That is why stock markets rise & fall sharply, purely based on sentiment rather than facts.



So the lesson is simple: Unless you have to sell now, then don't, don't be a victim of fear - because loosing 1/3 of your money + car is a very crap deal. If you bought in TRNC because you liked the place, then enjoy it for the next 5+ years! Don't read the postings of the doom & gloom merchants.



TRNC is a long term investment & I think most of us realised that from day 1 . So live & be happy!

robbie c


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 176

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 17:32

JESSIE As everybody has said Bargains to be had but Buy resale, Inspect without Rosey Coloured Spectacles,Make sure Cochan(deeds) are available without Second Charges or being owned by 2 people or debted against.And your over the first hurdle.Good Luck Once you become acustomed to the Political and Govermental ways over here.Its quite a nice life

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 19:43

mess 4 - i'd say poppy cock !!



We are in the greatest financial mess in the last 100 years....



You must have been a pipe fitter/welder from Rhyl before you came here....



Things are going to get a lot lot worse before they get better....





Nick

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 21:33

msg 22 youre spot on ,

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 22:08

How many of you giving advice are property/investment specialists or financial gurus?



For heavens sake this forum is not the place to take general investment advice.



Those of you complaining about your crappy property and then pushing resales, please add the address of your crumbling villa and the name of the builder so no one buys it from you.



Thanks.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 22:13

mine is neither crappy or crumbling , and i have no wish to sell , whats your point donty ??

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 22:13

re mess. 22, Not quite convinced people who bought between 2000 and 2004 are actually showing a loss, most properties sold around Bogas area are still showing a little asset growth. ie neighbours villa bought 2004 (120K) recently 150k. was asking 165K. sunrise 2bed apartment 2003 39k, sold nov 55k

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 22:20

DONTY....msg 26....are you involved in the financial services or property sector ,now or ever by any chance?



Your comments just seemed disproportionately harsh.



Come on....declare an interest if there is one.

BigBen


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 22:27

Jessie,

The property price was very law comparing with the south, and still are.

There are few sales this dates, the prices are static but not recused much.

I few re sale that I know gone with very liile profit.

If you are looking for long term investment, it is a buyers market now. Who knows by end of the year prices can double again. As it has done durring 2003 - 2006.

For example: a donum of land in Karsiyaka, in 2003 was between £1500 - to £5000. You can bot buy any land under £35,000 now.

Prime land sells at around £55,000

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 22:31

Sorry to be pedantic Big Ben but I think what you mean is that prime land is advertised for sale at £55,000......whether it actually sells,and what it sells for,is a different matter.

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 22:47

Msg 27



I see so many post that are based on knee jerk reaction or obviously from people who have little in-depth knowledge of the property sector it makes me afraid for all the newbies reading these posts.





Msg 29



I have been involved in the property sector in various countries for many years, dealing mainly with large investors and some end users.



rowlo, cronos. what is your expertise? you give property advice so am interested.



rowlo. you suggest resales but who would want to buy the problems associated with the early builds, built by guys with no knowledge, low standards and a gambling habit? Also remember that not everyone has the funds available to buy outright immediately.



I'm not on here to gain business, its just that over the years i have seen so much crap suggested i feel someone needs to present the options fairly.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 22:52

DONTY....I never professed to have any "expertise" regarding property.



I simply post my opinions based on my own experiences of the process in TRNC over the past 3 years.



My opinions may well differ from yours....but surely I'm allowed to profer them?

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 22:56

cronos



Land is still selling. Mainly to Israeli, Iranian and Russian investors. Not at the levels of previous years due to global problems but it is still selling. It needs to be good plots though which are always sought after.



The reason investors buy here is the potential gains to be made if we reunite with favourable conditions (not everyone sees it as doom and gloom). Why do you think the canny Israelis have entered the market so strongly?

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 23:03

DONTY....good points...but we are talking about different markets.



I'm talking about the single building plot stuff for sale to individuals to build their "dream home"



A really nice villa can be had for circa £150K at the moment......so a plot...in my humble opinion,should cost no more than £50K for the exercise to be worthwhile.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 23:04

msg 32 donty ,i never suggested resales , im not an investor but an end user ,what i bought is mine ,for the time being anyway?theres places ready to move into ie finished propertys thats what i meant when i advised not to buy off plan.as for the funds if youre looking to buy youre looking to spend just spend wisely

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 23:04

cronos

you are giving investment advice with no in-depth knowledge. I rest my case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7vMvlRio5Y



Folks

please, please, please take investment advice from experts. Ask non experts where to buy the cheapest beer.



Non experts.

please state that your knowledge level when giving advice. I would never tell someone how to fly a plane just cos i did a few hours flying in the Air Training Corps.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 23:11

DONTY....you seem to be unfeasibly defensive on this topic.



I didn't know I was dealing with an expert and obviously bow to your superior knowledge.



Would your advice for prospective buyers to be to put their complete faith in the myriad of expert property professionals in the TRNC?

Because after all...what could go wrong?

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 23:15

rowlo



it is true, there are plenty of off-plan i wouldnt touch with a barge-pole but this is down to the builder, not that its off-plan as there are just as many resales in the same category.



The reputation and financial strength of the builder/developer and quality of the building (or previous builds) are the most important factors, not whether the property is off-plan, nearly complete or complete.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 23:19

well donty thats your opinion,everybody has one ?

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 23:35

cronos



i told you that i am fed up with seeing the same crap advice about buying resale being touted, not defensive. (read msg 39)



I put my faith in my own research and instinct (no crystal ball, just plenty of prior experience). All 'property professionals' make money if you buy something.

http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/8226.asp (msg 56)



The advice i give time and time again is: no 1. look at the builders track record (especially if it for you own use), not the biggest for cheapest or best view as many people put as the priority (unless you are in a boom market, then you can buy a load of crud on a good plot and make dollar).

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 23:39

I can't see anything wrong with us ordinary folk passing on a bit of advise to new buyers.



Its people like us that really do know whats going on on the ground so to speak

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 23:39

rowlo



Indeed!



My opinion is based on many years in property.



I also advise pilots to yank the red lever!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 23:49

stewart message 4



egad you're a green shootist sir,



and should be locked up immediately to protect the public



("green shoots of recovery"), etc etc etc continued page 94)

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 00:03

Turtle



Not its not. you only know about your situation and your friends and rumours on this site. Tell us who you bought from, where your villa is and we people avoid it but don't tell people buying resale is best because some poor individual could end up buying someone else's problems.



People in the business of property are probably in a better place to understand what not to buy otherwise why do we have financial advisors, school teachers etc etc.



e.g. I went to school but dont profess to being a great school teacher, I have borrowed money but couldn't tell you who is offering the best deals today etc! Capiche?

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 00:08

"Capiche?".....Been watching the Sopranos DVD box set Donty ?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 00:10

Chill man Chill, its a bloody forum not the Construction Federation.



If someone asks for my opinion I will tell them , I will not give them advice just my opinion thats all

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 00:20

Touche !

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 00:33

cronos

I love the Sopranos, got all six series.



Turtle

No problem. You give your opinion and I will counter with advice if I think the opinion given is unbalanced, poorly presented or researched just as I have tonight.



Peace out.

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 00:43

Donty is it not true that probably 99% of those "crappy" and "crumbling" properties have been sold by (so called) professionals. So are you telling us that we should trust the very people who are paid huge commissions by builders simply because they are "in the business of property" and not take any notice whatsoever of the people with actual experience of buying property here?

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 01:09

joandjelly



I see it more that these properties have been bought by naive buyers. Don't 'trust' anybody. Trust your instinct and ALL your research, not just what an agent says nor what some faceless bod on a forum says.



Did you just buy what the agent told you to buy or did you choose your property cos you liked the view?



I also refer you to my msg 41 paragraph 2, paragraph 3,

msg 32 paragraph 1

http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/8226.asp (msg 56) paragraph 3.



The purpose of my post is to give a balanced view of off-plan v's resale as i mentioned many times as certain people keep advising against off-plan and there are pros and cons with both. (deja vu)!



I am waiting for the naysayers to tell us their development name and the problems so we can all avoid them (if we choose) but STILL no one comes forward!

sparta


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 226

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 16:37

Donty

you are spot on, it does not matter if you purchase off-plan or a finished property, providing you are using a reputable builder and there are quite a few good ones about, however, there are a few sh#t ones too..these are the ones that give the property market here a bad name. you are also right that many of these sh#t builders were the ones building 4-5 years ago, when every farmer and his son were builders, most, thankfully do not build anymore. Most of these sh#t houses are in fact finished property RESALES...bought 3-5 years ago,quality comes at a price,, same here as anywhere else in this world..nothing wrong buying off-plan providing you use a good builder with a proven track record.

PIPIE


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 16:59

message 4 are you serious ?

Steve1953



Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 298

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 18:56

Why pick on TRNC? Same applies in UK,not just lousy builders,but botched

D-I-Y's, mean homeowners who paper over the cracks etc etc - never mind Homebuyers report,they should have an ongoing MOT on major items fitted and by whom on all properties.

As far as economics go,usually the higher the price the greater the fall -hence UK will fall more because of this and 100%+ mortgages.



Another perspective is location - applies in both countries. Council tax and other expenses are still excessive anywhere in UK.



Dont even go there on Spain/States - lets get things in perspective

Seems to me quite a lot of bitchy comments are not really called for - yes some people will have paid high prices for large villas - agree that they will be angry... but it WILL go back up in time.. they cant make any more land to expand people onto.

Everyone has lost money on shares,annuities and private pensions .. so dont be too hard on yourselves people who are down on their properties,regards,Steve

reproman


Joined: 05/06/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 19:21

Good point Steve1953



People seem to think this problem is exclusive to North Cyprus.

Open your eyes...its global.



I know someone who paid £300k for a new build apartment (tiny box flat!) in up-and-coming north london back in the 2007 peak...and are now crying themselves to sleep every night.



To make it worse, as some of the apartments remained unsold, the developer has resorted to givnig them to housing association!

Now that would make me sick.



Property prices the world over have risen too far too fast, based on lies and way to much credit given to people who, lets be honest here, cannont afford to pay it back.



Repro

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 20:13

sparta



common sense, I love it!



msg54 and 55: true, true

Steve1953



Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 298

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 21:06

Dear Repro,us northerers could only ever afford a rabbit hutch anywhere south of Watford - and that goes back to the 1970's.



Mrs Thatcher was the best person I know who encouraged cowboy builders - maybe some have now moved into TRNC?



Very common feature here is wealthy pensioners skimping on their houses and repairs,to fund their foreign holidays. More cowboys than a John Wayne movie - bit like the song by Bernard Cribbins - Right said Fred - everytime you do a job you find another one ... and on ...and on...like Ariston ...



....and they go on about TRNC?



Just seen my retired plumber this week - he used to go on cruises,exotic hols etc - and his financial advisor(his daughter), who is an assistant bank manager suggested .....er ..er..

...banks - Halifax,N.Rock bonds,RBS and Lloyds..



...to say he felt suicidal is an understatement ...even outdoing Neg Nick ...so come all you NN's out there,cheer up and have another Efes.



Kind regards,Steve

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
18/02/2009 21:10

well said steve .

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 02:17

Msg 34 Donty,land is still selling,mainly to the likes of Mr Branson,and also Mr Abramovic.They have good eyes for long term investments......its what made them billionaires!

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 09:21

i agree the uk is in a mess.

i have just recieve a auction cataloge with three brand new george wimpy apartments in it.

looks like even the developers are in big trouble.

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 10:47

Suppose an explaination is in order:



Providing you did not overpay for your property ( quite common ) prices will rise this summer.



Tourism is up, hotels fully booked for the summer ( have evidence )..due to the exchange rate V the euro



Uk house prices stabled....banks will ease on lending restrictions by the summer.



There is more to NC than just the UK market...people in the south and from spain are also buying, as are worldwide, canny investors.



Last week I met 3 couples in NC looking for property, they were recommended NC by their finance advisors in the UK



What better way to invest, rather than 2 - 3% interest for savings



I also recognise that developers are in trouble...due to UK purchasers defaulting on payments

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 10:53

Stewart....."What better way to invest, rather than 2 - 3% interest for savings "



The problem is Stewart,that unfortunately in NC you can invest money in something you may never own,and end up losing 100% of your money !



I realise that you want to bull up the market,but a hefty dose of realism is needed in these troubled times,and doubly so for any "investment" in North Cyprus.

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 10:56

Dear cronos / all



Yes, FYI my property is worth 50% more now than 24 months ago ( bought for 28k, apartment next door sold two weeks ago for £42k )



Prices will rise if you did not overpay in the first place.....ie a two bed apartment on one of the new estates are not worth £55k.or more...more like 40K ( sorry to anyone reading this that "overpaid" )



anyone looking and wants some realistic guidance...can contact me via stua@fsmail.net ( subject: nc )

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 11:06

Dear Cronos....I do not need to "bull" up anything...I put my money where my mouth is...bought another two last week!

James


Joined: 03/05/2007
Posts: 15

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 11:08

Agree Mideaster. We "bought" Karaman property in summer...part of contract with ministry is you can't sell for 5 years anyway!

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 11:40

Clarets re : Msg 59 - Have you been talking to an Estate Agent?!!!

Steve1953



Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 298

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 12:45

Hi Stewart,you seem to be getting a bit of flak mate, - you bought 2 more props last week - where did you buy and were they resales?



In my opinion,it makes sense to buy 3 apartments at say £50k rather than a villa for £150k;especially if you are going to rent them out.



Be interested in your findings,motives and your long term thoughts, to enlighten the doubtors,



kind regards,Steve

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 14:03

Steve, in support of what you've said my apartment has achieved a 15% increase per annum since I purchased it in 2003 and although I've no wish or intention of selling my next door neighbour had no trouble at all in selling his recently. Of course this very much depends upon location & build quality but in my case I'm happy with both.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 18:28

I note with interest the opinions on whether property is rising in value etc. I take with a pinch of salt what 'Stewart' states I'm afraid, could be forgiven for thinking he works in the property sector. As for the hotels being fully booked and the UK recession starting to end by the summer, pigs will fly to put it bluntly.

Why has no one pointed out that whatever you buy, you may never own it and it may in fact, cost you money? I mean by that, Turkish title - being refused PTP and exchange land, well just look at the likely outcome of the Orams case in the ECJ. Do you really want to put your UK assets at risk by buying former GC owned land/property? Talk about burying your head in the sand if you think that will go away.

Don't take me the wrong way. I own an apartment in NC and yes of course I want to believe that it is a safe investment financially. Call me strange but I don't want to lose money and I'd like the kocan so at least when I visit and enjoy it, I can relax more.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 19:06

Hector...."Why has no one pointed out that whatever you buy, you may never own it "



See my post 62.



But don't waste your breath....as you say,no-one is listening if their head is buried in the sand !

ian444


Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 71

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 19:11

message 61



Stewart sorry but i find think thinks are just a little different



' Providing you did not overpay for your property ( quite common ) prices will rise this summer.' Prices will continue to fall see hectors post above



'Tourism is up, hotels fully booked for the summer ( have evidence )..due to the exchange rate V the euro '

I have just booked 3 trips to cyprus during the summer loads of choice lots of discount



'Uk house prices stabled....banks will ease on lending restrictions by the summer. ' are you having a laugh is a 20% fall stable in your view



http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5765249.ece



'What better way to invest, rather than 2 - 3% interest for savings '

I am afraid buying property in the TRNC at the moment is like playing Russian Roulette with your savings

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 20:00

Hector message 69

Good post.



JimmyGL

Where is your apartment?,you certainly did well.If you bought at 50k, then your friend must have got just over 100k when selling at 15% growth per annum.I am guessing the apartments are Turkish Title.

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 20:22

People devalueing their own properties by talking down a place... utter madness. It must be the type of people who buy here!!!



Think i'll buy a pad in Cape Verde then tell everyone it's a shithole! That way i can turn £200k into £50k..... great!



Lets all buy shares in some company and start rumours that its going down as well!



Wahey... Cuckoo Cuckoo!!!!

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 20:57

"Lets all buy shares in some company and start rumours that its going down as well! "



or.



lets all buy shares in some company and start false rumours that the shares will double, in order to sell our shares to some unsuspecting mug.

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 21:32

I am going to sell my properties in the TRNC and invest the lot in opening up a franchise of the samaritans offering counselling services for the clinically depressed. I reckon i would double my investment in a week as the TRNC seems to be full of loads of moaning, negative, whinging gets......

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 21:36

Stewart,

I to have invested heavily in the TRNC with my mate Steve1953, I admire your courage my friend and of course if there is a positive settlement then prices will rise sharply and the reality of losing everything is not as cut and dried as some people think. As an investor the political situation is the main hurdle to overcome but remember LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION and buyer beware.........

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 21:40

tell you what. ill give you £50 for your place girne29 before you lose it cos u know you will even though its Turkish title. BTW cyprus will be a desert in 50 yrs cos of global warming anyway so sell now.



Anyone else want to sell their property for 5% of what they paid for it cos i might be able to punt it out to some nutter. you better do it quick cos the Greeks are coming over the 'green line' to claim back their whole island that they owned 900 yrs ago (well the byzantines anyway)!



you better hurry up cos im probably gonna drop dead soon from chemicals in the water.



Is that mmm on top of the lead tank?

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 21:45

DONTY....your flippant sarcasm helps no-one.



"Anyone else want to sell their property for 5% of what they paid for it"



No...if and when I do decide to sell I'd like to get at least 100% of what I paid for it !



Am I being unrealistic?

PIPIE


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 21:45

Stewart

you wrote





Tourism is up, hotels fully booked for the summer ( have evidence )..due to the exchange rate V the euro



you say you have evidence could i ask where is it ?



.

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 21:51

Message 77,

5% you say for our properties.......... No thanks but i reckon 5% is about as much as the Greeks will get in terms of property when they come marching across the border..........

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 22:03

lets face it cronos. this is all speculative bullshit. thought id try joining the other side for a while as it dont mean a thing anyway.



cronos you say 'DONTY....your flippant sarcasm helps no-one' well all of these stupid political posts help no-one as well. it just uses up time for us sad sacks who like to bicker on-line cos we got no friends.



there certainly isnt an definitive answer now so why do we waste our time? my excuse is that im a complete sad loser, what about you?

clayton


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 1143

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 23:32

when the greeks come knocking.iwill say why dont you go and live in england.you will get a house for nothing,you can go down to the free bank otherwise known as the dole.we will give you money to live here.we will pay for your kids who are back on greek soil.all i want of you mate is this little bit of land and i am willing to pay compensation for it.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 23:43

Hi Donty,

I have enjoyed reading thru this post as I think you are right on a number of issues as in doing your homework re off plan or built properties before buying. I also liked your positive take in promoting TRNC.



Then I spot you on another post regarding a question about ptp and you reply:

"your screwed mate. The island belongs to the greek cyps... all of it!"



Suddenly I am not so sure you were being straight with us or perhaps you were just being flippant, after all, surely you wouldn't say this to any perspective customer you were advising?... I hope so because on this tag I was up to that point on your side as it were?



Flippant I hope



Regards Joseph

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
19/02/2009 23:52

Joseph



I just thought i'd see what it was like to be on the other side. i'm in flippant mode

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 00:05

Ok

I ask Donty a straight question and he gives a straight answer ... fair enough



So... how come not a single one of the "Don't buy in TRNC group" above have not answered Donty's question ... naming what developement they are on so interested buyers can avoid the problems Donty says they espouse?



Await... but I'm not holding my breath



Regards Joseph

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 01:05

hi joseph msg85 donty is obviously a gc estate agent look at his msg77 ?hes trying to buy cheap in the north ,to accomodate his gc mates when the tcs claim theyre land back in the south ,

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 01:19

bloody hell innit rowlo, you rumble me!

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 01:37

Joseph...msg 85



"So... how come not a single one of the "Don't buy in TRNC group" above have not answered Donty's question ... naming what developement they are on so interested buyers can avoid the problems Donty says they espouse?"



I don't have a problem with my development at all.

My builder delivered a fantastic apartment,on time,that exceeded our expectations.

BUT....I do not yet have PTP or Title Deeds after more than 2 years....and the TRNC system does little to help foreign buyers.

THAT is the problem....and while ever this situation persists I would not recommend anyone to risk buying in NC.

Have I made my position clear?

Steve1953



Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 298

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 01:40

bring back Pikey,as least you knew where you stood

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 01:44

come on steve you know hes here??????

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 02:22

Cronos msg 88... Fair point ...



But to belabour the point which apartment on what complex... after all if it is a fantastic site why not recommend the builder and or complex so interested buyers can consider that site or indeed others by that builder?



I think this is Donty's point ... people interested in buying are in exactly the same position as you were two years ago or whatever... they are not all speculators but genuine people who have weighed up all the pros and cons and are looking to buy, which is why they are reading tabs on our forum?



The best advice I ever had was from people who were already living in TRNC who originally warned me... "that the process would be long, hard and very very frustrating... but worth it in the end... because you will love living here"



Take for granted they understood I had done all my homework, visited the NCyprus 4 or 5 times before buying, checked the land was mortgage free and hired an independent solicitor.



Regards Joseph

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 09:02

Joseph...msg 91.....glad you see my point.



It is very easy to brand people as doom merchants or naysayers without knowing the facts.



I feel that a lot of Brits have been sucked into buying blindly in the TRNC by misguided "recommendations" from fellow countrymen who were singing the praises from the rooftops about their brilliant builder and fantastic solicitor,after only a few months into the process.

It is only in the final stages of purchase...which can be 2 or more years after paying a deposit.....that the real problems can arise ie handover,snagging ,maintenance , fees and taxes...AND,not to labour the point,PTP and Title Deeds.



In our own case..we did our homework...chose to look at only Pre-74 turkish Title properties....and whether by luck or judgement ended up with a great builder and

efficient solicitor.Our apartment is fantastic,and we were handed the keys on time.



BUT...until we get our PTP and Title Deeds then I will not recommend purchase in the TRNC .

Steve1953



Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 298

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 09:53

M90. Dear Donty,only joking sir.Too many wind up merchants on this site .....



.... still I wonder if mmmmmm will look like Donald Sutherland in Kelly's Heroes when he rolls across the green line in his tank?



Maybe Mark will have a blue tank?



cheers,Steve

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 12:46

Girne 29 re Msg 72 - My apartment is in central Girne, is not Turkish title and I paid £33k for it in 2003 and got my kocan in 2007. Feel a part of the community not apart from the community which is why I wouldn't look at a gated complex, not to mention their maintenance charges.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 17:20

jimmyG



That sounds about right, but not the 15% per year. Would it not be fair to say the big jump in prices occurred for your place 2003-2005 rather than since.

sam_sansom


Joined: 29/10/2008
Posts: 23

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 17:23

makes you wonder why people bought house in trnc the amount of moaning some people do

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 17:58

Call me a cynic but a lot of people who complain about the moaners are those who have tried to sell and take out their frustration on others at not being able to.



A lot of us have bought for the long term and will call a spade a spade .The reasons for the property downslide are many fold ,some external and a lot internal.



Big changes are happening and I think for millions of people, talking about buying second homes anywhere never mind Cyprus is way down their list,they have real problems. The financial problems are going to get worse and last longer than Governments are letting on so forget about programmes like A Place in the Sun for a while.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 18:00

girne 29. Good Post.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 18:02

However cheap the prices fall , always treat property purchase in TRNC as a risk,at least until such time as it is bound by the laws and conventions of the EU.

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 18:42

Girne29, agree with you post no.97 and with regards to post no.95 you are correct as to when the largest increases occurred but depends on how you do the maths on the return if I ever wanted to sell i.e based on my original purchase price of £33k x 15% (£4950) x 6 years = £62,700. My next door neighbour sold his identical apartment a few weeks ago for £62,000 to a Turkish Cypriot couple.

Have never looked on mine as an investment though - it's just somewhere I want to be, so selling up is not even on the horizon.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 19:53

Cronos,I can lend you a proctoscope so that you can remove your head from your rectum,if you like!

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 00:34

Clarets.....still insisting on talking out of yours ?

sam_sansom


Joined: 29/10/2008
Posts: 23

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 03:34

girne 29 im happy to wait not even thought about selling get your facts right love

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 11:42

To all those who was "upset" or think I am wrong

1 House prices in the Uk ROSE in the last 4 weeks....FACT

2 Try booking a flight for the summer....spent 4 days this week, not many seats left for august...Fact

3 Why would a hotel owner tell me he was fully booked and turn away business if he was not?...FACT

Everyone to their own opinion.....when I ever been wrong in the past?.....I am retired, don't need to buy and sell so I do not need to talk anything up...just giving my opinion.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 12:21

Clarets,

You are trying too hard to be a "Doctor" by putting medical terminology in everything you write.



It fails to convince.



How about some "patient partnership" with YOU saying something constructive, rather than your continual attempt to belittle or name call people, when they give an opinion that you disagree with.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 12:49

"Kettle calling pot black"....nuf said!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 12:52

Cronos ,msg 102,I would have to bow to you much superior knowledge and application in that sphere.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 12:58

Msg 105,



"You are trying too hard to be a "Doctor" by putting medical terminology in everything you write.







It fails to convince." I was trying to be a doctor 25 years ago......I have been one now,for 22 years,and very successfully, I might add! To what do we attribute your own personal self-satisfaction?







How about some "patient partnership" with YOU saying something constructive, rather than your continual attempt to belittle or name call people, when they give an opinion that you disagree with.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 13:03

Clarets...if you geuinely are a Doctor,then with the bedside manner you display on here I'd rather take my chances with Shipman.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 13:05

The one comment that I would add,at this time,is that an awfully high % of posts on most topics appear to get high-jacked by mischievous or malicious persons(un-named) whose sole purpose is just to be contrary and contradictory.I have much more to add than just negative,name-calling comments,if only you care to search or ask. I do however,revel in the "sport" of banter,and enjoy the odd mind-game !

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 13:07

Cronos,you sound like a person,who would have got along famously with "Fred" Shipman.......you undoubtedly have many things in common.......the most obvious being insight!

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 13:18

Simply basing my observations on your last few posts. Here is a snap shot of some of your posts

"Needs Viagra" "Lend you a proctoscope" "Your injection is wearing off" "Neualgia parasthatria" "Glaucomatous View" and so on!



I can't believe that a doctor would use terminology and clinical procedures in a negative way and to seek to use them to highlight peoples deficiencies (in your opinion of course)!



Three years training to be a doctor?

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 13:54

Bradus,you really are going to have to concentrate more closely! I was at medical school 25 years ago......I did not say in which year! I did ,however,qualify in 1987 with 2 degrees in Medicine and Surgery.Since then I have gone on to several post-graduate diplomas in a variety of medical subjects.I am a tutor at the University of Manchester Medical School,Appraiser of other Doctors,and also assessor of practices within my area,in terms of their development.There are many more achievements and responsibilities that I have,but it would be far too pompous to list them all !

If you are going to quote me please do it accurately......what procedures have I used on any posters on this forum? Using medical terminology is something I do everyday,in the process of my occupation.Just because you dont understand some/all of the words,doesnt give you a reason to suspect that I am something that I have never been!

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 14:09

Clarets....proof if proof were needed !

You air of superiority,condascension,and patronising tone lend me now to believe that you must be a Doctor.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 14:28

Cronos,please learn to spell properly! What you percieve in my attributes are merely reflections of deficiencies in your own psyche.I can send you a link to web-sites about critical self analysis,and 360" appraisal.....you obviously need help!

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 14:29

I was once given some good advice from local TC's which summed up property purchase in the TRNC.

" Don't buy unless you can afford to lose the property and money you are spending because this will always be a future possibility"



"Buy an apartment so that if compensation needs to be paid it will be divided by several purchasers rather than you footing the whole bill"



It was evident that they hoped and believed that there would be a settlement and that the risk of losing/paying out compensation on property was highly possible.



I suppose the advice to people thinking of buying in the North should be, only do it if you are a risk taker and put some money aside for any future compensation claims that might come your way.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 14:31

Ahhhhh.....when all else fails...pick people up on spelling mistakes and typos.



How very mature Doctor.



"Physician...heal thyself !"

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 15:32

Bradus,that is precisely what I did,when I bought my villa.I will be open to negotiation at the time when "compenation" may ,or may not be payable. If it was formerly GC land,then I will also discuss the situation re "my compensation" with the person from whom,I bought it.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 15:48

Cronos,at least I have that capability.You obviously have problems with your self esteem that only a behavioural psychologist could fix!

sparta


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 226

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 15:51

post deleted due to foul mouth response.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 16:17

Bradus re advice " Buy an apartment so that if compensation needs to be paid it will be divided by several purchasers rather than you footing the whole bill"



Would not the same be true even for people buying villas. If compensation were due it would be divided between those owning the various plots?



If you were on a site say of 20 villas and should compensation become the norm at some future date then compensation for what was once a field would have to be divided by the 20 owners and does the owner of a bigger plot pay more, the owner of a bigger villa more, those without a pool less and so on.

So too with your apartment example.

Would penthouse owners pay more because their apartment is worth more etc



I presume this is why they introduced the immovable property law to preclude all such unending/unsolvable problems?



Regards Joseph

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 17:42

does any of you have a sea front villa or appartment for sale between kyrenia and lapta

eager


Joined: 23/02/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 23:06

Surely its the builders who should pay any compensation, they were the one's who bought the land for gain in the first place.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
21/02/2009 23:10

eager msg 123?????????????

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 00:14

eager



taking your approach, shouldn't the person who sold the land to the builder (for gain) pay the compensation?



The theory is that (based on the Annan plan (that was seen as a fair compromise for all by the United Nations, the TRNC and the RoC until they got EU entry)) whoever bought the property stands to gain as after compensation is paid there will be no stigma attached to the property, or this side of the island and the north will open up to the Thomas Cooks of this world and prices will rise to somewhere around GC values. That is why the bigger investors have bought here.



the GC theory is that you will lose the lot and the Annan plan means nothing, thats why they are pushing for EU involvement not UN as they are in the EU club and this side isnt.



Time will tell

Steve1953



Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 298

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 10:45

Being realistic,this aint going to happen. We have been on this roundabout before - many TC's owned land in the south and were booted off in 1974 - including parts of Ayia Napa and Larnaca Airport.



If they should ever resolve this issue,maybe on Turkey's entry to the EU,and the removal of 50,000 troops,and God's knows how many appeals .... then in say 2100 it may result in a knock for knock agreement - possession is nine tenths of the law in any country.....but dont hold your breath as there is no trust,kind regards,Steve

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 11:28

I don't see reunification taking place either.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 12:04

Joseph mesage 121

Elsewhere

thats the way it would work ,if your plot takes up quarter of a field then,then you pay quarter.



An apartment block with 4 aprtments plus penthouse on top,then penthouse would be double the aprtment.



Isnt going to happen anyway so dont lose sleep over it.The compensation route is dead. The GC.s have gone the EU court route and the two routes are not compatable as EU law will take precedent over local law/agreement.Same us UK cannot bring out any law that is contrary to EU directives. Re -G.Browns "jobs for Brits"

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 12:11

joseph:



"Would not the same be true even for people buying villas. If compensation were due it would be divided between those owning the various plots?"



Compo would be payable by whichever trespasser the owner of the land wished to proceed to court with. Why should the owner take everyone at the same time? If it were me I'd go for the easiest target first and leave the others for later.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 12:34

Macha,a simple person would agree with you. However,a person who can think for themselves, would see the error of the logic ie it would never apply under any law in the UK or EU. You cannot pick and choose which bits of things you apply such jurisprudence to !

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 12:42

Macha



Can you tell us of any other post-war situation (like Kosovo etc) where each and every individual has solved the land issues through private litigation rather than governments (and i'm not talking about a few cases thrown up during negotiations to test the oppositions resolve)?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 13:22

clarets,



It now looks very much like the GC owners of property in the TRNC will be able to sue the expat occupiers in the RoC court and have the judgement enforced in the UK against the defender's home and assets. We're just waiting for the Orams case to finish and given the pronouncement by the top judge there, it should be a foregone comnclusion.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 13:26

DONTY,



Regardless of what has happened in other countries, you must agree that Cyprus is an unusual case and private litigation against individuals (Orams) and judgements against countries (Turkey) are facts of life. Nobody on GC property knows when they may get a knock on the door or a writ, either in Cyprus or the UK.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 13:34

I love reading a spat between 'friends' and I must conclude that Clarets makes fools of you everytime....give it up you lot..you cannot possibly win.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 13:37

Harsh words Macha so nobody wants to accept them as a distinct possibility.

However surely no one with an ounce of common sense could dispute that this is a very likely scenario.

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 13:42

Macha



I dont agree that Cyprus is an unusual case.



Could you not find anything on Google to support your argument and counter mine?

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 14:15

Macha



message 133









"It now looks very much like the GC owners of property in the TRNC will be able to sue the expat occupiers in the RoC court and have the judgement enforced in the UK against the defender's home and assets."



I dont agree with a lot of what you say, but at least I like your honesty. You are right, the property issue will be solved thro the EU courts and all else is a red herring flung in by GC's who are trying to pretend they are for negotiating,and maybe encourage us not to offload our assets or go to EU ourselves .



Your view is probably more in tune with ROC thinking than the luv in stuff,and as soon as people here realise it the better.TC and Brit , EU citizens together.



One point you are wrong in, is that its assets in the UK that are at risk. Assets&savings in Cyprus are also at risk, As soon as agreement is reached I am technically in EU .Any laws judgements apply in Cyprus just as much as London.

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 14:54

Do you really think that each and every case will be solved individually? How many cases will the UK courts have to hear? 250,000? 500,000? How will the EU deal with the backlog? what tripe!



Look at the precedents around the world, it doesn't work like that.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 17:16

Donty message 138

Thats what I am sayin! Of course its impractical, but thats the way they have gone.



I didnt say individually.

Say I bring a case against B-izonalCyprus based on racial discrimination in that I was to be evicted from, or had to pay compensation for, on racial grounds ,my property .

If I win then we all win, because the policy agreed by the two sides will be declared illegal under EU law and will have to be stopped. Thats my point when I say whats the point of the property negotiations.

The ROC has decided to use EU law against the Orams rather than stick with the negotiated stance,so now I expect to use EU law against bi-zonal CYP in the future



Cyprus has an over inflated sense of its own importance if they think Europe proper is going to, or can even let them circumvent certain laws for their own agenda,the same as you or I cant.



They want 2 bites ,TRNC/ROC negotiations and ECHR, of the same cherry.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 17:27

Definition of discrimination - The Directives identify four forms of prohibited discrimination: direct, indirect, harassment and instructions to discriminate.

The common definition of direct discrimination includes four elements: the need to demonstrate less favourable treatment; a requirement for a comparison with another person in a similar situation, but with different characteristics (e.g. ethnic origin, religion



direct discrimination shall be taken to occur where one person is treated less favourably than another is, has been or would be treated in a comparable situation on grounds of racial or ethnic origin;



Indirect discrimination is established through a comparison between the effect of the measure on persons of a particular ethnic origin, etc.

Even if national law does not state explicitly that instructions to discriminate are discrimination, general legal principles may be used.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 18:18

Dear Clarets, re msg 118

" If it was formerly GC land" ..



I'm sure you'll know that "formerly owned" is a misnomer... our guide being the ECHR..





Donty, re msg 125 The RoC was going to accede to the EU long before the Annan Plan was even drawn up...



Steve1963, re msg 126



*it* will happen - either politically and legally or a combination of both - whether TR joins the EU or not.. Turkey is boxed in legally and needs a solution - Ironically GC not using the IPC is "helping" Turkey



I don't think "possession is 9/10 ths the law" is even accurate...:(

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 19:30

mmmmmm,reliable in your compliance to miss the point as usual. There is definitely some syndrome going on here.....it may just take me a little time to work it out at this distance. "formerly owned" only becomes a misnomer, when it becomes owned again by the person who "claims to own it".

The Orams may or may not lose their case.That, I guarantee, will not be the end of that.The Discriminatory factors involved, inherently, in such a case will always be open to civil action and I for one would be heading for Strazbourg,on such a basis,if any person(GC or otherwise) feels that they can take what has rightly be paid for by someone else,on what "might" have been their ancestors land "for a period of time".I use the later phrase advisedly,as a wise person once said......"nobody ever actually owns the land they live on,they just lease it". Besides the decisions of the ECHR are NOT automatically LEGALLY binding......THAT is 100% FACT

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 20:12

girne29: "One point you are wrong in, is that its assets in the UK that are at risk. Assets&savings in Cyprus are also at risk, As soon as agreement is reached I am technically in EU .Any laws judgements apply in Cyprus just as much as London."



I already knew that judgements should be enforceable throughout the EU, but the example of UK home and assets is probably what concentrates people's minds the most.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 20:23

I should hope you would be going to Strazbourg. You will be in exactly the same position as the GC who owned the land, although in theory he is seen as the legal owner (internationally) and you are only seen as the legal owner within the TRNC.



However you should certainly have redress. I wait with interest to see Clarets v TRNC in the ECHR'S.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 20:27

Reading all the posts so far just makes one realise what a bed of ants this whole question is... for us never mind the politicians.. lots and lots of differing opinions which can probably be split into two sides but filtering down to one single question, who owns what?



Personally I believe the answer can only be found via the compensation route and encompassing some sort of agreement on exchange which is what the Annan plan tried to template. Political equality will not solve this long term because either side will simply invoke powers of compulsory purchase to suit whatever voter on whatever side... a la Larnaca Airport...

Would C/P in itself be a good or bad solution?



One question that still puzzles me...

Why were the Orams chosen as the test case by a GC claimant?

Were there particular circumstances involving them specifically?

Or were they chosen randomly, adhoc or for a reason/purpose?



Could anyone ,more informed than I, shed light on this?



Regards Joseph

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 20:40

Joseph,

msg 145

Why were the Orams singled out?

Their villa in Lapta was an easy and soft target.

One foriegn buyer on a single TRNC title. Orams title deed was easily obtained and scrutinised to determine who should be served with writ.

Mr Apostolides researched that the property was built to the instruction of a non resident afluent British couple.

The criteria for an ROC claim in an ROC Court under juristiction of the ROC made the judgment an almost certainty.

The Orams could not possibly expect a fair hearing and this indeed was the case.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 20:44

Hi Joseph,

I was at the HBPG when the Orams were good enough to share their experiences with the audience. Obviously "why us" is a question they must have asked themselves many times.



The true answer is it could happen to any person that has bought "exchange" land. They just happened to have picked land that was owned by someone who wanted the return of his land, no matter what the costs. Someone who has had the determination to see this through right to the end.



There but the grace of God go I, springs to mind.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 21:12

Hi Bradus



Fair enough "there but for the grace of God..." but then read WAZ34's post and he actually makes specific "charges" as it were...i.e.

Easy and soft target

One buyer on single title etc etc



Bradus do you know if the Oram's were in posession of their title deed

kocan, permission to purchase etc and if so why didn't Mr Apostolides sue the issuing dept in the TRNC instead.



Again it raises the question of who to sue , the seller or buyer... or is the target whoever is in posession at the time and if so what is to stop the owner of the day selling on immediately he is notified of any action in order to create a merry-go-round making such an action unactionable?



Regards Joseph

Steve1953



Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 298

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 21:25

Dear mmmmmes 141,you seem to have overlooked 3 great divides - trust,troops and history.



You may be partially right on EU law,but the process is in a constant change of flux and the legal process will take years. You cannot get blood out of a stone and if any nationality is living on that land - it will prove very difficult to remove - unless you create a state in a former state ie Israel in Palestine. Are you telling me the palastinian farmer received compensation in 1948?



US and UK/EU will still require military bases in Cyprus and Turkey,and as long as the're there Turkish troops will also be there - the UN will not be able to police or protect citizens - because there is no trust - given the venom of this thread,only a presidential disaster like Bush would fail to see it.

History - no mention of repatriated turks and greeks from Mr Ataturk's/greek exchanges in 1920's

Too complex and dangerous for the tc's just to be based on land only..too many gc's on here,regards,steve

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 21:34

nice steve1953 . they have no vested interesed in nc why do they spout theyre shxt in the first place ????

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 21:47

The Orams were let down by their NC advocate who failed to submit a defence on their behalf within the time limits. He went to court the day after he should have done and never gave an explanation as to why. The legal argument after that was about serving a defence in time and not about the property dispute.

There seems to be some misunderstanding as to the effect of a ECJ legal decision. The Orams case was referred to the ECJ by the High Court for a legal decision in EU law. That decision once given, binds the UK (& other similar EU) courts, end of story. If the decision is (and it is almost a certainty) that a court order made in one EU country can be enforced in another then that becomes law across the EU.

Mr Apostilades can then ask the UK court to pursue the Orams (against their assets) for his compensation including forcing the sale of their UK home.

http://www.compactlaw.co.uk/free_legal_information/small_claims/smcf10.html

This is a far reaching case, not just for Cyprus.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 21:53

joseph: "Bradus do you know if the Oram's were in posession of their title deed kocan, permission to purchase etc and if so why didn't Mr Apostolides sue the issuing dept in the TRNC instead."



This really underscores the benefit of doing your homework and researching Cyprus thoroughly - including staying there for a while, before making any decisions.



Apostolides could not take any organ of the "TRNC" to court for the simple fact that no such place is recognised in international law. You can only sue a person or organi9sation that is real and exists in law. Turkey is ruled to be controlling the north of Cyprus and has many ECHR judgements against it for human rights abuses and war crimes

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 21:57

Msg 151,

However,

The compensation in this case amounts, at the moment at about £12-14K.

The Orams are ordered to demolish the property.

The TRNC administration will most likely deny permission to do this.



It is certainly not the case that the Orams House in Brighton will be ceased for any sort of recompense to Mr Apostolides.

Furthermore, It is likely that the Orams will, after the ECJ ruling go to the UK House of Lords for special review.

The case is far from over and the ROC cannot hope to win political advantage through civil litigation. The ROC continues to clutch at straws to win political victory over the TRNC.

Steve1953



Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 298

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 22:00

Dear Rowlo,I must be getting old or having seen too many petty squabbles in social services. Other similar political threads are the same hype as this- as mentioned they are wrong just to concentrate on land ,as it goes much deeper.



Problem is,over the last 35 years the world has got smaller,and human rights for the UK citizen (or passport holder) will apply as it will for the german,frenchman and the new EU citizens of Turkey whose parents were allowed to settle in Cyprus after 1974.



Macha/Pikey Juliet-Suzanne and others never mention tc land in the south - it could NEVER be a straight be a 20/80 split.



More dangerous for the tc's is the wealth of the south - if unification is ever suggested both sides will rocket(as in Ireland),but the gc's will be able to buy out the gc's + others at the market value. More likely they will buy land and build like at pre 74 Farmagusta.



Too much venom on some of the posts - a more balanced discussion would be refreshing - regards Steve

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 22:05

How do you know that the Orams house in Brighton will not be ordered to be sold by the UK court? The amount you mentioned (£12-14k), I agree it is unlikely but it depends on the Orams paying the debt.

On what grounds can the Orams go to the H of L? The H of L cannot over rule the ECJ and the Orams have to seek permission to appeal, which they won't get unless their is a valid legal issue for the H of L to decide.

You say that the ROC cannot hope to win political advantage though civil litigation. The case has been brought by a citizen and not the ROC.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 22:07

Mach...so



...So presumably Apostolides cannot therefore sue a TC or must he then sue Turkey... so my question remains and WAZ's point is true re the esay option?



Just to be obtuse I wonder what would happen when a French,German or even Rusian purchaser is sued? We all know France's position when it comes to rulings passed by the ECourt re itself or it's nationals.

Also re Russia... do they even recognise ECourt's rulings?



Seriously... there are so many pitfalls ahead I think prevarication will rule in the end... or will it



Joseph

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 22:10

Hi Steve



no need to mention the tc property on the south as it`s all still there, i admit some of it is now unfortunatly crumbling due to age, hopefully the tcs will come over & claim back there homes, some have so much character shame to see the traditional house being left to ruin.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 22:11

I have to agree about other EU countries attitudes and whether they would enforce a ROC court judgement. The question was asked 'Why the Orams?' well one answer may be that the UK usually enforces EU law to the letter whereas other countries ignore what they don't like. As for Russia, that is not in the EU. Mind you what would happen if you went against some Russian bloke who happened to own a football team in England?