TRNC exchange land

smurfit


Joined: 27/10/2008
Posts: 6

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 11:45

hi there fairly new to all this, just picking everyones brains really, i am buying in trnc and am told the land it is built on is exchange land which has already been exchanged, and therefore is deemed to be "immovable",could it really be that simple ?

RedSnapper


Joined: 12/08/2008
Posts: 540

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 11:54

Yep, perfectly safe and before you know it permission to purchase and title deeds will be through in no time using a good solicitor.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 12:02

msg 1 smurfit,



Exchange land is commonly described as "safe". You must do your homework in order to assess the risk. There is risk in purchasing any immovable property in TRNC. This is due to the ongoing issues of title, ownership, Cypriot history and politics.



You are absolutely right to consider the TRNC. Prices are good and the region is supurb.

Check to Kocan (title). Is it exchange land? Who is selling, any morgage on the land?

Recommend you visit Home buyers pressure Group web site OR see them at Pia Bella Hotel on Tuesdays.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 12:05

go to the roc lands office and check this is the truth.

most exchange land has not been legally exchanged and is likely to be subject of a claim from the greek cypriot owner.

check out what has happened to the ormans, enough info on the net.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 12:08

smurfit....I'm sure you'll get lots of replies about this.

There is no such thing as exchange land....by that I mean despite what your friendly Estate Agents will tell you,no "exchange" has ever taken place between the original (actual) GC owner and the TC who is now selling it to you.

Your land is still owned by the GC with the deeds , and almost certainly will be involved in some form of reclaim/compensation deal in the future.

You are not alone...thousands of others have done the same thing (many on here already regretting it)...but use this forum wisely and get a balanced view to enable you to make a rational decision.

Good luck !

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 12:43

this is beginning to sound like a pantomime "oh yes there is, oh no there isn't"



exchange land is recognised and marketable as such within north cyprus

and also to some extent by overseas investors as a "reality on the ground"

there is a lot of old tosh about it being "stolen", the former occupiers are gone:

but some, seeking redress, are trying the ecj as an alternative to a peace deal



exchange land, which as a result offers exceptional value for money,

together wthe trnc and all it's laws and institutions

are technically and legally unrecognised throughout the world's states,

nonetheless there is limited co-operation with police, government and officials

and the north of cyprus receives eu budgetary assistance



the republic of (south) cyprus is conducting "re-unification talks"

with the leadership of the unrecognised trnc,

in order to secure a settlement re-unifying the whole island of cyprus

as a "bizonal bicommunal federation"



don't wait up



andre

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 13:01

exchange land



turks given land for replacement for south cyprus is not allowed to develop or sell the land he holds until he obtains the tittle deeds thereafter he can sell plots and develop and who ever buys exchange land property is safe on those grounds and regarded safe, until the turk holds the tittle deeds he is not allowed to sell part, develop

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 13:25

FACT



The only title deeds 100% secure and internationally recognised are British title deeds and pre 74Turkish title deeds.



Follow the Orams case and you will see what could happen to foreign purchasers. Do your research and then come back and tell us all if you truly think it is safe to buy in the current climate.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 14:00

Thank you Bradus..



smurfit



read this :



http://ukincyprus.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-cyprus/buying-property



A British couple that bought on "safe" "exchange " (sic) deeds are engaged in a very costly legal batle with A GC on whose land they have had ( as far as the world outside TR / "TRNC" is concerned) a house illegally built on what is STILL the GCs land..



The case is going to the European Court of Justice - to se if the Rep of Cyprus court judgement can be enforced on assets in another EU nation... in this case UK



My advice RENT... as prices as falling, and it is a buyers market - what have you got to lose. PLENTY to gain..

bazilbrush


Joined: 29/03/2008
Posts: 404

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 14:15

Obviously exchange land is exactly what it says, but when land and property was given to Turkish Cypriots it was on a points system so for eg someone had 2 donums and they were given the equivelent in points to come north and claim land. The trouble was that some were given points way beyond what they actually had in the south by knowing someone or back handers to some officials. So not all land was exchanged fairly and will be disputed I guess.

Buy an apartment at least there will be 6 of you paying the compensation!!!!!!

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 14:26

Bazil,



Can I just clarify?



In order for an exchange of property to take place, the owners have to agree?

So did the GC and TC owners agree to this or was it a scheme introduced by the TRNC only?

If this point system was implemented by the TRNC and the GC or TC never actively took part or gave consent to such an "exchange" then how can it have any validity in international law?

The estate agents in the TRNC still perpetuate this idyllic notion that there was a coming together between a GC and TC, and their respective governments and that an amicable and fair exchange of land and property took place.



Nothing could be further from the truth!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 15:46

FACT



exchanging our free time for mind-numbing and self-indulgent speculation

about things that will probably not happen is internationally unrecognizable

in my view of reality



of course the person who buys immoral "exchange land" will burn in hell

or at least is a total cad and bounder and lose all their lifesavings to boot



perhaps we can move on? no? oh well



andre

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 16:25

Simple answer. Do not believe anything you are told by estate agents and avucats. How do you tell they are lying - their lips are moving!!!!!!!



No the land is not safe but if anyone comes to try to take it off us there will a war brought about by all who live here. Bradus and Andre are both right.

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 16:29

Hi, not sure wether this helps but I have a few properties in NC ...all my property is on exchanged land....any further assistance please contact me via stua@fsmail.net subject: NC

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 16:30

Andre..



"of course the person who buys immoral "exchange land" will burn in hell



or at least is a total cad and bounder and lose all their lifesavings to boot"



As far as I can see these are your words and no-one elses on here !



Just because you may not like the reality of what Exchange Title actually is does not make it less valid and worthy of your flippant remarks.



I for one am certainly not accusing the people who bought Exchange Title of being immoral,or cads and bounders....I see them as financial victims.

But you seem to have another agenda altogether.



None of us have a crystal ball...and the possible outcome of the latest talks is down to speculation and pure conjecture at the moment.

Hopefully everyone will get a fair deal.

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 16:46

dear Andre....will meet you in HELL...we can carry on the conversation there!

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 18:31

The 'exchange' in exchange land/deeds refers to a consentual exchange only between a TC and the TRNC authorities. It does not mean and should not imply consent of exchange between the pre 74 GC owner and anyone else.



After 74 the TRNC, rightly or wrongly, took control of all GC property in the north of Cyprus. This was NOT done with the consent of the GC owner pre 74.



TC who lost land in the south post 7, if they wanted, could then 'exchange' this land with the TRNC authorities for points which in turn could then be traded for land in the north that the TRNC had taken control of and that was GC pre 74 (without the consent of the pre 74 GC owners). To get their points TC had to agree to sign over their rights to their pre 74 land in the south to the TRNC state.



The point with exchange land is that (on the whole) there is some 'balancing' land in the south, that is owned by the TRNC state as far as the TRNC is concerned.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 18:53

Erolz...msg 17......well explained.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 21:40

msg 4, 5, 8, 9,



Well said!!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 22:48

That post is predictable enough Juliet! Were they your lottery numbers this week?

millzer


Joined: 12/04/2007
Posts: 978

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 23:07

So, assuming the GC land given to the TC who fled north in exchange for land vacated in the south was of an equal size/points value, would it be correct to suppose that if that TC then sold the land in the north to a foreigner that the foreigner would then by right have claim to the TC's former land vacated in the south.



I have always been aware that the 'exchange' was only a TRNC thing and that GC's did not endorse this system, so in the event of a settlement and things coming to a head surely the foreigner would own the land in the south

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 23:10

See , what you are doing there millzer is applying common sense to the problem.

That will never do in the TRNC !

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 23:21

The bottom line, unfortunately, is that any 'exchange land' is a liability in the making.



The ECJ in the Orams case, is almost certainly going to uphold the right of the GC on whose land the Orams house in NC is built, to be able to enforce the GC court judgement in the UK against the Orams assets. Thus anyone who buys land/property which is 'exchange' in NC (owned originally by a non TC and therefore who still owns it in (non TRNC) law) and who holds assets in a EU country can lose those assets to pay compensation and still lose the NC property if NC becomes part of the EU.

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 23:33

Whats the consensus of opinion if the 'exchange land' is TC owned, regarding how current statusit will be resolved should there be unification. Obviously, before our activist member friends correct me stating they do n't own it, I'm talking purely in TRNC terms ie what the TRNC title deed ( Kocan) states.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 23:38

Message 23,you already appear to know the judgement of the case,its enforcibility & ,of course,taken into consideration, that such a ruling would actually transgress several HR's of the Orams themselves by its prejudicial nature! I for one,would not even try to predict how such an enforcement could be made to stick,even if the actual judgement did go against the Orams,in the first instance. As for compensation...........those waters are even muddier! Suffice to say,little Mr GC,will not end up living in the Orams villa in the TRNC,with a whole load of compensation(from the enforced sale of their UK house) sitting in his bank account,whilst listening to Demise Rousos at his new poolside.If anyone thinks that is a possibility,they are doing some serious Class A drugs!

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 00:04

clarets

I am making a reasoned guess basically. No crystal ball unfortunately, if I did I'd be busy buying lottery tickets. I am not taking sides either, I have every sympathy for the Orams, I'm just going with my meagre knowledge of EU & UK law. The HR's of the Orams has been considered by the ECJ and would have been argued no doubt by both sides lawyers. Once the ECJ decision is given then the High Court in the UK will have to abide by it, not only in relation to the Orams but also similar cases. Thus the R o C compensation order will be enforced. I am not doing serious (or any other) Class A drugs.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 00:51

Re 25 - Clarets



It always makes me "laugh" when someone says the Orams' HR would be affected by any judgement against them.



They know, by now - if they say they didn't they were either naive or STUPID - that the land their house is built on STILL belongs to someone else..



The ONLY hope they have - is a settlement - *if* the ECJ rule as advised by the AG.



Their EU - in this case UK assets - would be liable to seizure - just like any other case where one obtains a judgement in one EU country.



Even if they move their assets into another nation's domain or to a relative - they could be made Bankrupt and the OR can investigate to see if any assets have been "moved" and clawed back..



This is all about "gambling" or "showing solidarity" with "TRNC"..



There are LOADS of "northies who can't sell, who will be desparate for cash - Smurfit can bide his/her time and see which way the wind blows..



I've never taken Class A drugs, BTW..... ;)

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 01:39

I would like to clarify my position



any reunification "deal" may include restitution or compensation:

in fact the chances of this are extremely remote, both sides have hardened their positions since 2004, notwithstanding encouraging talk from the un



it is quite true that the "legal ownership" claims of greek cypriot former occupiers have been bolstered by recent statements from within the eu



nonetheless for apostolides to actually collect money from the orams

is not yet a racing certainty, as clarets says the waters are muddy,

I will believe it when I see it, not before, mr A hasn't done his home run yet



a danger for the patheon of claimants is that a fall at the final hurdle by mr A

could scupper the whole campaign, perhaps as the result of a vote in the lords



a most unwelcome aspect for the southern cause of these arguments and uncertainties is that it could depress trnc property prices even further:

shrewd investors may well pick up a bargain



andre

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 01:40

You obviously dont understand what I wrote or dont understand its implications.I dont know which is more sad..........the latter or the fact that you obviously NEED class A drugs to take you away from some serious delusional behaviour.Jurisprudence in the UK may have many faults,but if you think that the ultimate court in the Lords,would give some GC (who once owned some scrub with a lemon tree on it) their house and possessions in the UK,you need your head CT scanning!

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 02:01

andre:



''there is a lot of old tosh about it being "stolen", the former occupiers are gone''



Wanna bet? I had a very pleasant day out today with the real owners of some prime land on the north coast - who most certainly have not gone and have not forgotten.



Tread warily. Buying so-called ''exchange land'' means paying good money for something wıth no title deed.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 02:06

Macha,..............................and I'm Richard The Lionheart's descendant,coming back to take claim on the whole Island !

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 02:12

re: msg 29



assume you are talking about message 27!



I may well be an apologist for some of the worst aspects of human nature

but it continues to trouble me why certain contributors are on this forum

when they are so very anti-north cyprus



sometimes it is all dressed up in cod legalistics, sometimes they roguishly misinterpret official declarations from the un



often as not there is a raft of supporting bunny

suggesting they are in some way unbiased concerning the sad cyprus conflict:

I'm certainly not "unbiased" and in my cynical way rather doubt they are either



strangely, we have yet to hear from you-know-who on these weighty matters

but I'm sure this unerringly well-informed journo will contribute soon when:



"the kraken wakes"

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 04:08

Re Msg 21



The point is that should exhange land inncur financial liabilites in the future, there is some 'balancing' value , currently held by the TRNC state, in land in the South. One issue with this is that the RoC does not currently recognise the signing over of land by TC to the TRNC state - which does create a potential for unscupulous TC to double own/sell their land in the South. They excvhange it in the North for points/north Land and yet still, according to the RoC own the Land in the South they exchanged with the TRNC. This will need to be sorted out as part of a settlement.



Re Msg 27



Talking of bankrupcy re the Orams case is in that case just hyperbole. Even if the EU agrees that the RoC judgment can be enforced by UK courts vs UK assets, that only relates to those parts of the RoC judegment that can be enforced - namely the financial penalties. If you read the RoC ruling these are actualy small amounts. It is the principal that is at stake here.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 06:15

I have never heard a more load of rubbish in my life, do you really think that in any agreement the position of 1974 will be regained.

The TC's will trot off to thier land and houses they had and the GC's will come back to thiers.

Some formula will have to be adopted my fear is the sacrificial goat may be us.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 10:13

Dear Clarets re msg 29

"You .. dont understand what I wrote or dont understand its implications.."..........Jurisprudence in the UK may have many faults,but if you think that the ultimate court in the Lords,would give some GC (who once owned some scrub with a lemon tree on it) their house and possessions in the UK,.."



;) and your counter fell at the first hurdle.. the GC STILL owns the Lemon grove - let's be QUITE clear on that...



WHERE did I mention the Court of Eng and Wales have the power to tell the Turkish run admin in Cyprus to hand back Mr A's property..?!



The case is whether the RoC's Judgement can be enforced..



If you're offering a genuine medical reason for my needing a CT scan - I might listen to you...but judging by your ability to read something that wasn't there, I hope you don't mind if I enlisted a second opinion..;)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 11:53

Dear Erolz re msg 33



"Talking of bankrupcy re the Orams case is in that case just hyperbole. Even if the EU agrees that the RoC judgment can be enforced by UK courts vs UK assets, that only relates to those parts of the RoC judegment that can be enforced - namely the financial penalties. If you read the RoC ruling these are actualy small amounts. It is the principal that is at stake here."



Poppycock! ...



IF someone, anyone, obtains a judgement against you that proves you owe more than £750 GBP ( two creditors can even get together to take your debt up to that figure) they can immediately proceed to a bankruptcy petition. If the debtor (s) don't come to an arrangement within 21 days or pay up.. Bankruptcy



http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/pdfs/guidanceleafletspdf/howtomakesomeone.pdf



point 4



Other options are also quite draconian : "charging orders" that can be enforced on property for the smallest debt..



I agree it is about principle, and still subject to Court decis

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:01

Yes you can be forced into bankrupcy or have property 'siezed' for the smallest of debt - but the point is is for a small debt you would just pay the debt.



The idea that if the EU does decide that the RoC ruling can be enforced by UK courts against UK assets, then the Orams face finacial ruin , bankrupcy and loss of their house in the UK is what is nonsense.



The RoC ruling is for damages of less than 8K sterling. Hardly an amount that would lead to finacial ruin. That is my point.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:06

Dear Erolz, re msg 37



Sorry for the "poppycock" - it is one of your favs .. and a childish retort to your unwarranted sarcasm to "Macha".. for which I apologise..



The Orams' also have a HUGE legal bill - which we are told is being "covered" - we will see.



Good to have you back..

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:08

Smurf - it's only exchange if both owners of the respective land did the exchange ...



Unfortunately the Greek Cypriot owner wasn't involved in the exchange, so want's his land back...



bit like if someone sold your car without your permission - and the purchaser recconed he'd got legal title to the car....



Make sense ??





Nick

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:13

Msg 37 erolz,

Very valid point. The Orams case is clearly one of principal.

The Orams believe that they have done no wrong and have a principal for which they have the right to fight for.

Mr Apostolides has a clear political and nationalistic principal which he too has a right to fight for.



It is unlikely that any ECJ decision regarding enforcement will be the end of the saga.

Mr Apostilides must accept that currently there is little chance that the Oram's villa will be demolished any time soon. The back rent and damages is clearly not an amount that would bankrupt the Orams. It is the fight for principal that is proving so expensive.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:31

msg 34 hippo thats rubbish , and you know it , 35yrs later oh well all swap sides again ??

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:39

Mr Apostolides is extreamly confident with the outcome to his problem,it`s all going well..... And thats from the horses mouth.....

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 21:41

you the jockey on that horse juliet, or just the sad//dle

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:37

no rowlo i`m the trainer,,,

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 22:45

thats what i thought but waited for you to say it,most horses are doped , and most trainers are as bent as the day is long?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:00

msg45



obviously we don`t mix in the same circles rowlo, know a lot of bent people do you?

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:13

not really , but theres 3 on this board thats bent over backward , and youre one of them ?

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 23:45

re message suppose the guy has the log book

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 00:10

msg 48,



Even if the log book was stolen along with the car, the wholer caboodle legally belongs to the person registered at DVLa Swansea, or the owner.



For ''DVLA'' read ''ROC Land Registry''

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 00:21

Juliet msg 42...confident about his problem is he ?Bet he cant wait to roll up to the Orams villa with his bulldozer to flaten it for his(dead) lemon tree back!You really are a small minded lot if you are representative of GC'c

mmmmm msg 35,you really are having problems with the long words....either you cant read them, or dont understand them.A CT scan would enable us to to determine what form of dementia afflicts you.You are certainly entitled to a second opinion.........your'e still biggoted......there you go!

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 00:47

The alleged GC owners? Who are they? How old are they? Do they still exist? Why have none ever posted on these forums? The ROC Land Registry Office was busy knocking out Land Titles for property in the North after 1974, on what basis? This whole episode of TRNC land ownership is open to some various interpretation, who owns what and who thinks they own what? Also, what proof is available?.



Besides the well financed and publicised Oram's case, there is a deafening silence from the GC property claimers, why is that?



Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to justify any sort of Brit land grab, but the more I look into this particular conflict and the events prior to 1974, the cosy image of GC's owning land held by their family for generations falls away and evidence of a stealthy ethnic land grab of TC property by various underhand means comes to light.



There are no Saints or Angels in Cyprus, I'm afraid, especially when it comes to land ownership, not then, not now.



Lem

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 01:30

msg 51:



'' Also, what proof is available?.''



The legal record holders are the ROC land Registry. The ınternational assumption, rightly so IMO, is that all records held or titles issued by the TRNC are illegal. It will be for those holding ''exchange '' deeds to prove they are legally valid.



Back to the old Tooth Fairy conundrum.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 01:49

"The legal record holders are the ROC land Registry"........and Thunderbirds are Go,my Dad is ET,and snow will fall in Girne on the Summer equinox!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 09:38

Re msg 50, Clarets "Juliet msg 42...confident about his problem is he ?Bet he cant wait to roll up to the Orams villa with his bulldozer to flaten it for his(dead) lemon tree back!You really are a small minded lot if you are representative of GC'c "



;) Re the bulldozer..He probably can't.. but he realised that there is a smarter way ... That's why *some* of us are debating..





"mmmmm msg 35,you really are having problems with the long words....either you cant read them, or dont understand them.A CT scan would enable us to to determine what form of dementia afflicts you.You are certainly entitled to a second opinion.........your'e still biggoted......there you go!"



1/ Bigotry.. I'm not the one sticking labels on people of a certain ethnicity you seem to have a problem with... don't read your own posts, with a degree of objectivity, you might want to withdraw that remark...;)



2/ Funnily enough, I've only recently HAD a CT scan ;).. and your expertise is ?....

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 15:03

mmmmmm,



you are entitled to your opinions and who am I to judge your sincerity

and you could be right in everything you say

and may even be vindicated in the very long run...

but in an earlier posting you mention you campaigned for a "yes" vote in 2004:

was that among your own people, the greek cypriots?



I'm not suggesting you are indeed greek cypriot and I just don't know,

but you tirelessly campaign for their national cause



nothing wrong there

but if so, wouldn't it be more worthy to be open and transparent

regarding the truth about your devotion to their point of view?



don't trot out the old warhorse

about international criticism of north cyprus and turkey: it's stuff you selected!



explain how one part of an asian island was happily welcomed to the eu,

when despite warnings and statements to the contrary,

a partitioned cyprus was still permitted to join, only being required

to conduct a mickey mouse talks and referendum excercise in 2004



andre

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 16:33

Dear Andre re msg 55



I'm wondering why you need to ask this question for the third of forth time...?



I lived in the south in 2004, but met in the north with pro Annan soln TCs, too..



"funnily enough" this made me a "Turk Lover" according to some ignorant anti - Annan GCs who thought I might be have "TC connections ...;) !



Just to re-iterate.. my viewpoints are largely in line with folk who don't have an "agenda" .. other than seeking to find a lasting soln..



Is that SO hard for you to accept?



I witnessed in in "MY" country, and hope for the same in Cyprus..

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
22/02/2009 23:13

Mark you aline Cyprus with your native Ireland, how can you do this.

The Irish terrorised each other along with large parts of the British Isles for decades indescriminate bombing, murders, extortion rackets but Cyprus has been peaceful since 1974 no murders or bombings just people wanting to live a quiet life.



I see no simularities.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 00:09

ok mark I accept what you say about your motives and respect your answer



and you won't find me conjuring up pick'n mix bogus moral absolutes

although as they say "a cat may look at a queen", or some such,

an appropriate phrase since I'm told I have "the morals of an alley-cat"



but something sticks in my throat, no not a pongy old kipper bone,

it is that try as hard as I might I just cannot picture a re-uni deal between

the republic of cyprus, and peaceful north cyprus for very compelling reasons,

which I've repeated to anyone who will listen



if you are telling us all that a lasting solution waits in the wings,

I'd like to hope you are right

but I am as sure as anyone can be that you won't see it in our lifetimes

that an intelligent bloke like yourself is still trying to hawk this rotten fish:

can you really blame me for fluffing up my fur and hissing at you?



miaow

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 00:14

mmmmm, msg 54.....finally sorted you "cutting and pasting"out ! If the CT scan was of the cerebral hemispheres,it probably reads something like this. "Report on individual basically representative of the species Homo Sapiens.Global cranium size more aligned to previously assumed to be extinct, Neanderthal hominid.Cerebral atrophy present,even taking into consideration,species differentials,and widespread evidence of multifocal infarcts representing vascular dementia.Suggestion for referring clinician....refer to Vetinary surgical dept,Blackpool zoo,memory assessment clinic"

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 07:32

is there such a thing as exchange land anyway?

i think not!

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 08:44

"is there such a thing as exchange land anyway?



i think not! "



There is such a thing as exchange land, as far as one understands the exchange was between the TC and the TRNC and did not involve the consent of the pre 74 GC owner of said land. Exchange land is different from TC and foreign title pre 74 and also different from land that pre 74 had no title (state own land). This disitinction is real and material. The use of the word exchange may be misleading but the seperate status of such land is real and material. The point with exchange land is that there is at some level somewhere some 'balancing' land / value in the South, compared with say pre 74 state land that was issued TRNC deeds post 74 where there is no such 'balancing' value. Exchange land does NOT mean the pre 74 GC owner agreed to the loss of their land or that they personaly got an asset in exchange for it. It does mean that somewhere there is some balancing value in the South.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 08:49

Msg 59 Clarets that made me laugh so much I peed my pants...tena lady anyone

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 09:04

Dear Turtle re 57,



I don't think the physical problems are the same - Ireland hadn't had such a final solution re ethnic cleansing - nor so many third countries "interfering".



I was talking more in terms of inflexibility of both tribes to move from their positions.. if you had told me that Paisley would be in govt with Adams and that he and McGuinness would become the "Chuckle Brothers"...



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6948406.stm



Miracles can happen.. Politics in Cyprus - like Ireland is/was all about "semantics"...



IF TR was a member of the EU - even without a complete settlement of Cyprus Q - I could see a "result" happening .. the fact that Cyprus is the key - and it is NOT Cyprus who would "veto" - makes it far more complicated - yet the rewards all the greater..



One thing is for sure.. the property "thing" will ultimately be sorted one way or the other - as both Cyprus and TR on members of the ECHR.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 09:14

Re 57/58 Turtle / Andre



To talk of "peace" following a HUGE wave of ethnic cleansing - when a lot of people died in a short time span - to achieve the "peace" is a little "rich", no ?



It wasn't even peaceful sometimes - remember the GC murdered for climbing a flag pole to take down a flag, or the GC clubbed to death at the funeral of the first GC...



Those were dark times..



Andre, I'm not even sure a deal will happen - it depends on TURKEY.. and whether they really want to join the EU.



But some sort of deal will be done property.. be it political or legal

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 09:22

Re 59, Clarets



I see you still some "blank spot" when it comes to sticking to the thread -or responding to my points re Cyprus - rather than offering up "help" re my "medical problem"....



As ever, I can only assume you inability to respond re Cyprus issues is more to do with the fact that you can't and feel "safer" within the field of your expertise ;)

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 09:47

mark,



why will there be a deal?



we both know that times are hard for north cyprus,

and not that easy anywhere in fact...

but will get more difficult still in the medium term



if you are looking for parallels to this most complex of the world's disputes,

things are going very well for the irish/northern island agreements

but you only need to look to cyprus' eastern neigbours

for a similarly intractable dispute



just like the israel-palestinian conflict,

the two sides have a totally different view of reality

and as israel builds on its settlements, hamas fires ever-bigger rockets,

and the stakes get higher all the time



with ireland, the two (three?) (four?) sides have basically agreed to disagree

all very civilised and commendable,

but even in that case, the republic of ireland has only the vaguest

and most laidback desire to ever represent all of ireland:

while nobody at all talks about property or sending the "foreigners" packing



andre

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 10:50

Dear Andre, re msg 66



I don't think the "Irish" / "Cypriot" / Palestine- Israel scenarios can be directly compared... I'm just hoping for a little common ground or a equitable "divorce"..



The Ireland conflict went on for a long time and it was going nowhere.



"the republic of ireland has only the vaguest



and most laidback desire to ever represent all of ireland:" - that wasn't what their constitution said !!



No-one is talking about sending foreigners packing in Cyprus, either - just prioritising the rights of those dispossessed, over recent acquisitions.



If that happens to be non-Cypriots....

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
23/02/2009 23:55

msg 66 mark



thing about the irish peace accords is

there is no clash about property so it was capable of resolution

of course the irish constitution contains a promise to represent all ireland

but this is not a current issue and indeed very few in the irish republic

see this as any priority



wise heads in the roc realize they'll never hack a re-uni deal

with many thousands of anatolian turks and their families permanently embedded in cyprus life:

"foreigners" in this context doesn't mean retirees stopping over

in south cyprus or brits living in tnorth cyprus



as regards "prioritising the rights of the disposessed",

refugees in the south can't go "home",

and refugees in the north won't go "home"



perhaps you're sorry you didn't buy property in the north



and whatever you or I select as "wrongs" in cyprus history,

turkey will never roll over and hand the trnc its people and airpace

to the republic of cyprus



but you know all of this already don't you?

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 00:08

Dee,why thank-you kind lady! I try to keep things light and humorous,if it is humanly possible......things get a little tense on these forums sometimes!

girne


Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 14:57

To be truthfull, being a Turkish Cypriot this has been going for many years and will continue going on for many more years.

Ask any local if he/she would like a Greek Cypriot living next door (the same would be said for the Greek Cyprıots)the answer would be no! So how does any Greek think that they will be-able to come over and recliam anything, for nothing is their's to claim anymore.

They have had theır share and are looking to claim much more.



As l say 'Once a war has has been won, how can anyone try and claim anything back which is not rıghtfully theirs'.

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 16:25

Good point Girne.

You might have a hard time convincing one or mtwo on this msubject!

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 16:25

Good point Girne.

You might have a hard time convincing one or mtwo on this msubject!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 17:39

no reply to my message 68?



"the alleycat"

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 18:19

girne, you are absolutely spot on, some people seem to forget that Turkey only got involved to protect the TC's and I for one find it ludicrous that anyone should think that Turkey have committed any kind of crime, they should in fact be applauded for their actions, it's funny how Britain could do the very same (Faulklands) for one, and no one has anything to say, I sometimes think there is more to this than meets the eye, otherwise why would no one recognise the TRNC, is it because Britain is in the EU and so is Greece so they don't want to offend, whatever it is it stinks if you ask me.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 18:50

girne: "Ask any local if he/she would like a Greek Cypriot living next door (the same would be said for the Greek Cyprıots)the answer would be no!"



A sweeping - and perhaps racist - statement. At least one member from the GC community here would have no problem with a TC living next door. How many TCs have you asked? Would you say the same about living next door to a black or Asian? And would they want to be next door to you?



"So how does any Greek think that they will be-able to come over and recliam anything, for nothing is theirs to claim anymore. They have had theır share and are looking to claim much more."



Yes, wouldn't life be simple if you could just help yourself to other people's property and not expect the police or the bailiffs at you door? This has already started happening in the TRNC. When will it be YOUR turn?



"'Once a war has has been won, how can anyone try and claim anything back which is not rıghtfully theirs?"



Easily - they use the cou

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 18:53

clarets: "Dee,why thank-you kind lady! I try to keep things light and humorous,if it is humanly possible......things get a little tense on these forums sometimes!"



Could be a UTI, "doc".

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 19:08

tattlad: "some people seem to forget that Turkey only got involved to protect the TC's"



Did you hear this from some bloke in a pub? If Turkey only invaded to protect the TCs, then why didn't they leave after partition and the restoration of democracy? And why are 40,000 troops still there 35 years later? Clue - they advanced to a partition line first envisaged in the 1950s.



"I for one find it ludicrous that anyone should think that Turkey have committed any kind of crime"



The ECHR found Turkey guilty of multiple war crimes in Cyprus.



"they should in fact be applauded for their actions, it's funny how Britain could do the very same (Faulklands) for one, and no one has anything to say"



Are you seriously comparing the (British) Falklands with the (independent) Cyprus?



"I sometimes think there is more to this than meets the eye, otherwise why would no one recognise the TRNC"



Because the United Nations told the world not to recognise the "TRNC" - and the world agrees.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 22:24

Macha, " At least one member from the GC community here would have no problem with a TC living next door."





So you belong to the GC community now do you, well that takes the buscuit

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/02/2009 22:54

To Girne_29 and t'others



I think who lives next door and their attitude is FAR more important than their ethnicity.



There are places were TCs and GCs co-exist and it doesn't take much policing, either.

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 00:03

we have a new Thread..with onfo...see Tryangle.....perhaps you will all calm down...what will be will be,

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 09:01

girne

i do hear what you are saying.

i think maybe the best way would be to return any pre 74 gc villages to the origional owners and the same for tc's in the south.

then work out the pre74 land mass and divid cyprus back to what it was percentage wise before 1974.

that way people wouldn't have to live next door to a tc or gc if they didn't want to.

the only trouble with this would be now cyprus has a lot more expats, and where they would fit into it?

i will say that in my tc village, we wouldn't have a problem, i and many others in the village have gc friends , they are made welcome!

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 13:32

www.famagust-gazette.com today President Christofias "our position is clear" on properties. "We expect TC side to respect the right of legal owners of property to decide if they wish to resettle, exchange or get compensation".

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 13:44

mmmmmm: "There are places were TCs and GCs co-exist and it doesn't take much policing, either."



You are spot on. I visited one such place last week - Potamia village in Larnaca district - and spent the afternoon in the coffee shop chatting to Greek and Turkish Cypriots who live side by side looking out for each others as normal neighbours and old friends do.



Perhaps some of the the more ignorant and naive of our members should pay a visit sometime. They may learn something useful for a change.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 14:11

Macha, no I didn't hear that from some bloke in the pub, I have read from several places that the TC'S begged the British government for help when Makarios was trying to wipe them from this Island, but Harold Wilson told them it's got F**k all to do with us (payback for Golipoly perhaps) and so had no one to turn to for help other than Turkey, and did you think that Turkey were going to profit from it ? no, they did it because it was the right thing to do, even if costs them money to do so,even now, the reason there is 40,000 troops from Turkey here is because they do not trust the GC's, and with bloody good reason, you need to do a bit of reading on this subject before you comment, and not just from the GC side.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 15:39

And before you start the Golipoly thing was just to state how Britain never forgets anything, and the real reason was possibly that as Britain needed a listening post for the middle east it was going to be easier deal with the GC side rather than have to bargain with Turkey, because I firmly believe that if it wasn't for it's proximity to the middle east no one including the UN would have cared what happened on this Island.

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 15:52

Thought you were going to say Golly---

A word not allowed

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 15:54

Eh! you can say by golly can't you ? but not if you put the other bit on

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 16:34

OK to say it but don't let anyone hear you.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 17:50

tattlad,



Turkey has around 40,000 troops occupying the north of Cyprus while the Greek Cypriots have around 11,000 soldiers.



Turkey's main battle tanks in Cyprus outnumber those of the Greek Cypriots by about three to one.



Turkey's mainland air force could completely destroy all the GC military infrastructure within a matter of minutes flying time.



Back in 1957 Turkey had a plan to partition Cyprus virtually exactly along the lines imposed in 1974.



Therefore for you to say Turkey has kept its troops here under those circumstances for 35 years simply because it "does not trust the GCs" is illogical. The greek coup provided the perfect excuse for Turkey to invade and partition the island just as it had wanted to for so long.



I don't think you have spoken to many Turkish Cypriots if you think Turkey is in Cyprus primarily to protect them. TCs will tell you Turkey is there because it suits Turkey. And the occupation is one of the biggest geopolitical cards Ankara holds.

smurfit


Joined: 27/10/2008
Posts: 6

Message Posted:
25/02/2009 20:43

have just got back again ,almost same subject, thinks......... have the orams actually got their deeds yet ,if not ?......are they yet the true owners ...can they be sued at all.. implications for all not yet possessing deeds..i have read it can be a heel of a time before you get them..

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 11:48

Macha, are you on drugs ? If your not you should be, a geopolitical card that Ankara holds, your having a laugh arn't you ? There is nothing on this Island Turkey wants,it's only got a bit of nice scenery, no water no gold diamonds etc, in fact it's costing turkey a fortune to hold onto it, but they do so to stop the GC's trying to take over the whole place, and as for the 1957 Turkey had a plan, did you hear that off some bloke in the pub ? If I am not mistaken I think Britain still held the rains around that time, and I know Turkey would not have wanted to cross swords with Britain, especially as Britain had just got the armed forces back to full strength after WWII.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 12:16

macha: a mental health warning



chap is a journalist so it is going to be hard to "win," with the truth or no

I've tried but am coming to the conclusion that a spoiler on the board

works as much as anything to create frustration, uncertainty and confusion



personal insults, whether your tiresome opponent deserves it or not

will only encourage him or her to wheel out the hoary old "barbarian" jibe,

which if I'm not very much mistaken comes from the greek for outlander



but wait, all is not lost,

this amazingly apt lyric certainly applies, from frankie goes to hollywood:



"when two tribes go to war...a point is all you can score"

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 13:09

Tattlad, re 91



Macha is correct re Turkey not wanting to "let go" of Cyprus.. A TR General refers for the need to remain to" protect TR's soft underbelly" !



Only recently our very own Elko2 - who has very little in common politically - with Macha has confirmed that Turkey's military will go when it wants and it hasn't much to do with protecting "TRNC" .. or TCs..



There were plans in the fifties and TR and Kissinger had agreed how much TR would take



TR even asked the UK if it could land via the British bases !!



Suggest you check out (now) non Secret files in USA / UK ( 30 yr rule) before suggesting the use of narcotics by a poster.. !

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 13:40

ooops, Sorry.... forgot to add the Kissinger was of course in the 70's..

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 13:48

And just how does north Cyprus defend Turkey's soft underbelly ? there is no navy here, there are tanks but I have seen no ships, so Turkey would be defending her shore's from the home front not here, I can only come to the conclusion that what you are saying is more GC rhetoric as none of it makes any sense.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 13:50

I never mentioned narcotics, maybe medication would have been a better term though.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 15:57

Dear Tattland re msg 95



" I can only come to the conclusion that what you are saying is more GC rhetoric as none of it makes any sense."



Perhaps you should read this..



http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav050703a.shtml

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 19:31

It still makes no sense, there is only one harbour big enough for warships here and you would only get a few in there, so how in gods name thats going to protect the southern end of Turkey is beyond comprehension, they may well want to hang on to the TRNC but there will be another reason for it.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 19:45

I would just call it a day now if I were you, tattlad. Hopefully you can see the benefits of knowing one's subject before engaging on a public forum.



And I'll take your second drugs/medication reference as a grudging apology.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 22:24

Come on tattlad you know better than to cross swords with the two most intelligent people on the board !

If you listen to thier ramblings you too could be as knowledgable and funny as this pair !!

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/02/2009 22:27

Macha



"I would just call it a day now if I were you, tattlad. Hopefully you can see the benefits of knowing one's subject before engaging on a public forum."



Well it has never stopped you Macha so why should it anyone else ?

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 00:01

Dear All



Sorry for poor English and for that being a newbie meanwhile I can't contribute too much to this important forum. Nevertheless, I probably have one small thing too share, namely some forum rules that every newcomer is advised to know.

Actually I was attracted by the post tittle "TRNC exchange land" and what I've found?!



Rule#3 - "Be Polite...sure"

Rule # - "Freedom of Speech", how nice, but "We respect every member's right to post his/her opinions, on all issues except ones questioning the legality of TRNC"

I'm afraid all this topic became focused on this question thus violating another rule

#6 "Keep The Focus"



Well, I have no right to judge no one but if someone wants to get back on track then I"ll be very happy to hear what tittle deeds do you have. The answers of those who consider the Exchange land nonlegal/unsafe will be especially appreciated.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 11:39

Turtle Msg 100, your right, I should get get involved with sh*tstirers, those two remind me of that Arsh*le Lord Haw Haw in WWII, I'll apologise to the moderators for any wrongdoings I have made during this post, I have a right to my opinion but sorry for any strong language, but felt it had to be said.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 12:11

magbs: "Well, I have no right to judge no one but if someone wants to get back on track then I"ll be very happy to hear what tittle deeds do you have. The answers of those who consider the Exchange land nonlegal/unsafe will be especially appreciated."



Welcome to the forum, magbs! You have every right to judge people as you find them, so I wouldn't worry about that. For example, those who can't manage to avoid personal insults and swearing in their single-sentence postings - to cover up for their knowledge and education gaps - are the ones whose contributions say it all.



Back to the subject. So-called "exchange land" is a very risky and ill-advised investment. It's cheap, therefore those with limited funds are attracted to it. However, an "exchange" only takes place by mutual agreement. The properties in question were seized from their legal owners by Turkey after 1974 and initially allocated to Turkish Cypriot refugees and Turkish settlers.



more follows...

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 12:15

Since the early 1990s the Turkish administration - against the advice of its own legal experts - allowed the occupiers to sell the properties to third parties. Howqever, permission was never granted by the legal owners i.e. the Greek Cypriots who were ethnically cleansed from their lands.



The Orams case puts into sharp focus how current occupiers of the properties are now being taken to court and face ruin, as they may have their homes and assets in the UK seized. The UK government recently updated its warning about buying property in north Cyprus, pointing out it is a criminal as well as civil offence under the laws of Cyprus.



Of course, there are the moral issues as well. Be warned

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 16:30

It was a war, to the victor go the spoils, get over it.

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 17:49

I know an estate agent who has invested well into properties and says he is very secure in the fact it's safe as he WOULD not invest otherwise and lose everything,he works for a very well established firm in north cyprus

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 20:40

msg 106



i sugesst you read the new thread (the new US report) & it was an invasion NOT a war....

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 21:28

OK, I realize many forum members are quite aware this issue although some are trying to calm themselves down. I just can't understand where the foreigners that were not attracted by low priced lands have settled. It seems there is virtually no foreign or TC owned pre-1974 properties. So what was your solution? Rent? or the level of awareness has only raised after the Orams case?

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 21:46

it was a greek invasion , but they never anticipated a war , when turkish army arrived to fend of invaders , invaders ran away , murdering everyone that wasnt greek ,thats why turkish army is still here ,greeks never had the balls for a war you fool ?????????????????/

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 22:41

Magbs,



I think the reasons are many and varied. Some took the word of their estate agent and lawyer and did no research. Only when they had committed themselves to the purchase and handed over lots of money, did they become aware of the potential pitfalls of buying exchange land. To this day I am amazed at how many still believe that there has been an agreement from a TC in the North to swap with a GC in the South, in a mutually agreed legally binding exchange.



Then there are others who researched and thought long and hard about their decision believing that buying in the TRNC was safe and worth the risk. Villas at less than half the cost of other Mediterranean resorts, were worth gambling on.

Convinced that even if compensation was to be the outcome, then it would be for scrub land and based on 1974 prices, so it would still be a real bargain and investment. If reunification occurred then prices would double to compare with those in the South.



cont/

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 22:48

As you suggest the Orams case has certainly made people wake up to the very real and potential pitfalls of buying in the TRNC.



You only have to look through all previous posts regarding exchange land to see that many do not like to discuss this subject. Those willing to discuss it soon become the pariahs of the board.



Can I ask why you were interested in this topic and what are your views regarding the purchase of exchange land? Are you Turkish Cypriot?

Kind Regards

Bradus

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 22:52

It would be interesting to hear the views and what is perceived will be the possible outcome from buying this particular title deed from any of the TC's that visit the forum.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2009 22:53

Juliet msg 108



When I asked in another thread after you claimed that all 'we' want is justice for Cypriots what sort of justice you think my family should recieve re the fact that my uncle was in 1964 taken in broad day light from his place of work and murdered by illegal armed men run by the then Interior Minister of the all GC run RoC you said



"sorry erolz but attrocites were done by both sides, its called war....cyprus has to move forward & put the past into the history books where they belong."



now here in this thread you say



" it was an invasion NOT a war.... "



re the events of 74. Forgive my cynasism but it seem to me that it is war when it is convient to YOU for it to be war and not war when it is not. Or have I got you wrong ?

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
28/02/2009 00:05

Bradus, msg 112



"Can I ask why you were interested in this topic and what are your views regarding the purchase of exchange land? Are you Turkish Cypriot?"



No, I am Israeli, considering small real estate investment. Actually I am at the very beginning, have never being to TRNC although planning a holiday next summer and I am definitely prepared to spend enough time before coming to the conclusion. That's why I've been interested in this topic.



There is no lack of info and I did some homework on the area history and property issues. Nevertheless the reason I came to your forum is that it seems to be the most comprehensive and providing different views what is very important in taking serious decisions.

vincehugo


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
28/02/2009 11:07

Re Msg 114



Nice one, Erolz!

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
28/02/2009 11:43

Msg 114 spot on Erolz ! there are some people on here that are delusional when it come to the real reason all the trouble happened, they fail to realize that if GC's had not tried to take over the whole island to which they had no right there would be no argument now, but my opinion is they have got what they deserve, and as for anyone that thinks that Turkey were wrong to come to the aid of the TC'S must be insane.

tarry67


Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 1053

Message Posted:
28/02/2009 14:06

There is only a small percentage of GC that are looking for compensation according to a GC friend of mine in Larnaca. He and many of his friends had property in the Alsancak/Lapta area but they never want to return here now. He has a lovely villa and a good life in the south with his family all in close proximity, much better than the shack he left behind. I think you would be very unlucky to get someone issuing a claim against your property. If you see someone at your door waving a piece of paper dont except it or touch it........!! unless it is the Camelot rep with a cheque.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
28/02/2009 17:25

msg 118



one person out of 200 thousand!!!!!!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
28/02/2009 18:29

I sympathise with your predicament juliet



compared to some others on this 'board you have never made any secret

of what you are about, ie your in-laws' lost lands

and your distaste of the way the north is run



but when I see phrases from some contributors plonked in front of us like:



"most tcs"

"ordinary cypriots"

"moral issues"



an orange light switches on because I am very much reminded

of those far-off days in the 20th century

when similarly bland expressions were used indiscriminately:



"the true german"

"an enemy of the people"

"where there is darkness let there be light"

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
28/02/2009 18:44

tattlad msg 117:



I have to take issue with you



nearly all the refugees from both communities who suffered terribly in the 1974 population exchanges did not deserve it at all, history tells us...



the fault, if there is one, might lay with the leadership of the greek cypriots spurred on by numerically small but highly influential militias like eoka b,

in collusion with the military junta in athens



while a cynic would say their greatest "fault" of all was to provoke ankara to send in their army, an action turkey had been reluctant to take for many years



I'm certain there were gross inhumanities committed by both sides

and the total distrust evident in the current so-called re-unification talks

shows that time is not always the great healer it is said to be

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
01/03/2009 22:22

Question for veterans of this forum.



What was the Annan plan opinion on the GC property? If I am not mistaken the plan would have the effect of keeping status quo without imposing any responsibility on the currents holders.



Well, GCs rejected the plan as a whole but I am not sure if that issue was the main reason.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
01/03/2009 23:00

Magbs, I am certainly no expert on this subject but from what I have read on here at the time the powers that be would never allowed the "plan" to go ahead irrespective of what the GC people wanted.



I am sure MM or Pikey will put us all right.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 03:42

as far as land is concerned, the final version of the 2004 plan

included a compensation programme with quite limited restitution



the greek cypriots voted "no":



firstly turkey's army was to stay, and troop reductions to be decided by "further agreement", something they angrily reject



secondly the important agriultural area of guzelyurt

plus the derelict seaside suburb of varosha would be returned to gc control

but not the remaining 28% they lost in 1974 after the nicos samson coup



thirdly the annan plan was created by the un in consultation with all parties

but not by face-to-face talks between cypriots



opinions have hardened considerably since then:



turkish settlers have increased, guzelyurt and varosha will not be offloaded,

the two communities continue to diverge

while the eu has broken its "thank you for voting yes"

promise made to the turkish cypriots to end their isolation



I believe the last chance for an agreement on the cyprus question has gone

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 11:01

Turtle, msg123



Who you think were the "powers" againts the plan?

EC, UN, US an UK were pushing hardly for yes vote. Only political leaders of both areas opposed it. You may also add the grey wolfs (I doubt if they had any influence on greek voices). I believe the GC people themselvs had very serious reasons to reject the plan and "powers" would probably change the perscentage but not their final decision.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 13:09

dimka makes a valid point:



there is no reason to patronise the greek cypriots,

I'm sure they voted honestly in accord with their most sincerely-held beliefs



the international community (which exists as an idea only in the best of times)

had no mandate whatever to impose any particular solution on cyprus in 2004:

no, that is exactly what happened back in 1960, and just look at the result



please be careful though about calling gc's "greek" this is inaccurate

whereas calling tc's "turk" is increasingly the real situation on the ground,

ever since southern cyprus raised many eyebrows by permitting itself in 2004

the luxury of rejecting probably the last-ever re-unification plan for cyprus



meanwhile the talks mediator downer of the united nations,

is prepared to knock negociators' heads together by december

for "one final heave" but perhaps my choice of this phrase is unfortunate



andre

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 13:22

Andre msg 124



"firstly turkey's army was to stay, and troop reductions to be decided by "further agreement", something they angrily reject "



This is not what the Annan Plan says. The schedule for reduction of both Greek and Turkish troops down to the levels allowed for in the treatry of guarantee (650 Turkish troops, 950 Greek) is explicitly and clearly defined in the Annan Plan. Max of 6000 troops till 2011, 3000 till 2018 (or Turkey in EU) and after that treaty of guarantee levels. Article 8 section 1 b.



"but not the remaining 28% they lost in 1974 after the nicos samson coup"



If this 28% was returned to GC control in the Annan Plan that would mean that 100% of Cyprus would be under GC control. Not really a bi communal federal solution then !



"thirdly the annan plan was created by the un in consultation with all parties but not by face-to-face talks between cypriots"



Again not true. The UN only 'filled in' those areas where direct agreement could not be reached (con

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 13:26

and this process was agreed by both sides.



"there is no reason to patronise the greek cypriots,



I'm sure they voted honestly in accord with their most sincerely-held beliefs"



Of course they voted honestly. What was not 'honest' was the sprerading of distortions, misinformation, inaccuracies and lies about what the Annan Plan actually said and meant, which we see repeated here.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 14:25

A practical question related to real estate market in trnc after the Annan plan was



issued untill the referendum. I guess the article about suspension of any dealings



with respect to any "affected property" had caused a freeze in the housing market.



Anybody experienced that situation?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 15:39

maqsb msge 129



Not sure I understand your question



It seems that the configuration of the Annan plan, in respect to properties in the TRNC gave a boost to the market. Many people still believed that a UN conceived plan would provide the framework for any eventual settlement. The market has now bottomed out due to the Orams case, poorly constructed and unenforced property laws, limited pre 74 titles in prime locations and the current economic crisis.



not sure if this helps

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 17:02

ilovecyprus msg 130



Annex 7 of the plan(especially acticles 12,13) indeed gave a very favorable solution to the "current users", but imho not to the potential buyers who should were restrained by article 5 (suspension of dealings...) If I had to make a deal those days I would be thinking twice knowing that it takes up to 12 months to get the purchase permit.



Personally the reason I am asking is that there are talks about next round of the negotiations to be finished until December

http://www.northcyprus.biz/north-cyprus-news.asp



Probably new formulas will be discussed but what if the property articles will be copypasted from Annan to a new plan? Should that be considered (of course, in addtion of other risks) by those who'd like to invest now.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 18:27

msge 131



Looks like you have done your homework on the Annan plan



Who knows what any property settlement will look like. We are all waiting with bated breath. We can only speculate at the moment.



Whether elements of the Annan plan are copypasted perhaps depends on whether the UN is asked to apply a standard, and this depends whether their role extends beyond it's limited remit. The GC's wont encourage extended UN involvement as their demands fall some way from the plan. Perhaps, their slogan of a solution by the cypriots for the cypriots is a smokescreen.



Christofias wants the TRNC to honour international agreements which would allow each displaced GC to decide for themselves as to whether they want to return or receive compensation.



How far the TC's concede depends on the power they have in the negotiations, which according to the Strafor group isn't very substantial. Perhaps since then, the economic crunch has levelled the field somewhat.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 18:28

ps Erolz is likely to give you a more informed answer

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 18:50

rowlo: "it was a greek invasion , but they never anticipated a war , when turkish army arrived to fend of invaders , invaders ran away , murdering everyone that wasnt greek ,thats why turkish army is still here ,greeks never had the balls for a war you fool ?????????????????/"



So speaks the one who thought the Cyprus coup was in 1963. What are you on about?



Spare yourself further embarrassment by taking observer status on the board until you actually know some facts about Cyprus.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 19:12

Evidence given to the commission: Witness Mrs K said that on July 21, 1974, the second day of the Turkish invasion, she and a group of villagers from Elia were captured when, fleeing from bombardment, they tried to reach a range of mountains. All 12 men arrested were civilians. They were separated from the women and shot in front of the women, under the orders of a Turkish officer. Some of the men were holding children, three of whom were wounded.



Written statements referred to two more group killings: at Trimithi eyewitnesses told of the deaths of five men (two shepherds aged 60 and 70, two masons of 20 and 60, and a 19-year-old plumber). At Palekythron 30 Greek Cypriot soldiers being held prisoner were killed by their captors, according to the second statement.



Witness S gave evidence of two other mass killings at Palekythron. In each case, between 30 and 40 soldiers who had surrendered to the advancing Turks were shot.



more follows...

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 19:14

n the second case, the witness said, "the soldiers were transferred to the kilns of the village where they were shot dead and burnt in order not to leave details of what had happened."



Seventeen members of two neighbouring families, including 10 women and five children aged between two and nine were murdered in cold blood at Palekythron, reported witness H, a doctor. Further killing described in the doctor's notes, recording evidence related to him by patients (either eye-witnesses or victims) included:



Execution of eight civilians taken prisoner by Turkish soldiers in the area of Prastio, one day after the ceasefire on August 16, 1974.



Killing by Turkish soldiers of five unarmed Greek Cypriot soldiers who had sought refuge in a house at Voni.



Shooting of four women, one of whom survived by pretending she was dead.



Further evidence, taken in refugees camps and in the form of written statements, described killings of civilians in homes, streets



more...

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 19:14

streets or fields, as well as the killing of people under arrest or in detention. Eight statements described the killing of soldiers not in combat; five statements referred to a mass grave found in Dherynia.



Commission's verdict: By 14 votes to one, the commission considered there were "very strong indications" of violation of Article 2 and killings "committed on a substantial scale."



Rape



Relevant article: No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.



Charge by Greek Cypriots: Turkish troops were responsible for wholesale and repeated rapes of women of all ages from 12 to 71, sometimes to such an extent that the victims suffered haemorrhages or became mental wrecks. In some areas, enforced prostitution was practised, all women and girls of a village being collected and put into separate rooms in empty houses where they were raped repeatedly.



In certain cases members of the same family were repeatedly raped, some of them



mor

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 19:16

repeatedly raped, some of them in front of their own children. In other cases women were brutally raped in public.



Rapes were on many occassions accompanied by brutalities such as violent biting of the victims causing severe wounding, banging their heads on the floor and wringing their throats almost to the point of suffocation. In some cases attempts to rape were followed by the stabbing or killing of the victims, victims included pregnant and mentally-retarded women.



Evidence to commission: Testimony of doctors C and H, who examined the victims. Eyewitnesses and hearsay witnesses also gave evidence, and the commission had before it written statements from 41 alleged victims.



Dr H said he had confirmed rape in 70 cases, including:



A mentally-retarded girl of 24 was raped in her house by 20 soldiers. When she started screaming they threw her from the second-floor window. She fractured her spine and was paralysed;



One day after their arrival at Voni, Turks took girls

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 19:18

Turks took girls to a nearby house and raped them;



One woman from Voni was raped on three occassions by four persons each time. She became pregnant;



One girl, from Palekyhthrou, who was held with others in a house, was taken out at gunpoint and raped;



At Tanvu, Turkish soldiers tried to rape a 17-year-old schoolgirl. She resisted and was shot dead;



A woman from Gypsou told Dr H that 25 girls were kept by Turks at Marathouvouno as prostitutes.



Another witness said that his wife was raped in front of their children. Witness S told of 25 girls who complained to Turkish officers about being raped and were raped again by the officers. A man (name withheld) reported that his wife was stabbed in the neck while resisting rape. His grand-daughter, aged six, had been stabbed and killed by Turkish soldiers attempting to rape her.



http://www.cyprus-dispute.org/materials/sundaytimes.html





rowlo and others of your ilk -



uncomfortable as it is, sometimes you have to face the

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 19:23

...truth about what happened to make it easier for you to come and buy "exchange" holiday homes. This is what happened to the people whose properties you are occupying.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 19:25

msg 140

and a lot more....... well said!;)

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 19:31

Sometimes some things have to be said. If only to point out the facts to some people who sadly don't seem to have done any research about Cyprus.



For anyone interested, these are Sunday Times extracts from the findings of the ECHR which found Turkey guilty of multiple war crimes including the above. Just for the benefit of Rowlo and others who seem to think some other country comitted the mass killings, torture and rape in Cyprus.



Still, ask no questions and all that, seeing as those "exchange" properties are so damn cheap, eh?

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 19:43

Macha,



That was well researched and makes very uncomfortable reading.

War can bring out bestial behaviour in people...not an excuse,just a fact.



What I would say is....just for the purpose of balance...can you acknowledge and concede that similar atrocities were visited upon the TC population by the Greek/GC forces?



This would then negate the argument of many on here that your views are one-sided and have an inherent bias towards the GC's?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 19:52

cronos,



I've been pointing out for years that BOTH sides committed atrocities on each other (and I'll say it again to you, newbie ;) ).



The posts above are for the benefit of certain members who seem to think the Turkish invasion was some rescue mission where a few people sadly died in the fighting. If they won't educate themselves then someone has to.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 21:12

Juliet msg 141



"msg 140



and a lot more....... well said!;)"



Once more I feel compelled to remind you what you said when I asked about the attrocious occurance of armed ethinc thugs run by and from the then Interior minster of the all gc run RoC who took my uncle from his place of work in broad daylight, murdered him and dumped him in a well to rot and what kind of justice should happend re this kind of incident. Your reply then was



"sorry erolz but attrocites were done by both sides, its called war....cyprus has to move forward & put the past into the history books where they belong."



Once again it seems that moving forward and putting things into the history books were they belong does not apply in the case of Machas list of Turkish attrocities in 74. It seems you congratulate him for keeping these in the present and in our faces whilst at the same time insisting that GC attrocites prior to 74 were 'war' and need to be kept in the past.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 21:17

erolz



i suggest you read msg 144 for your anwser.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 21:24

Juliet msg 146



You have not answered the question at all. THe question is do you think



"attrocites were done by both sides, its called war....cyprus has to move forward & put the past into the history books where they belong"



or not ?



If you think that listing attrocites comitted by one side to 'eductate' those with misconceptions about the Cyprus problem is a worthy and necessary act then you would welcome those posts made that seek to 'educate' people that the CYprus problem did not start in 74 and does not relate solely to the acts of Turkey from that time, but that the events of 74 were a consequence of what happened before.



You do not do this. You welcome and support and encourage 'education' (one sided listings of attocities) when it reflects negatively on Turkey but dismiss it as 'war and all in the past' when it reflects negatively on GC.



I would like to find some sort of consenus with you as a Cypriot but you make it impossible with this approach.

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 22:30

I admire this Greek Gypriot. He was a journalist and he had the courage to challenge the mindset of his community and seek the truth. Compelling watching.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlZOHnT97VE



Lem

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 22:36

Oh, Macha, now it would be absolutely disgraceful to ask any more questions regarding the market conditions.



"truth about what happened to make it easier for you to come and buy "exchange" holiday homes"



I guess the same should also make it easier for those who are planning to rent a villa for a couple of weeks (crime according to the RoC law) or just having a lunch at the restaurant with Turkish settlers management?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 22:44

Lem msg 148



Come on Lem we all know that what this man is investigating is something that both sides did and it was war and we need to move forward and put this kind of thing into the history books. Now please go and find some reports of Turkish attrocities in Cyprus to 'educate' us all and post them here.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 22:47

just watched it lem , gotta lump in my throat ??

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 23:11

Maqbs: "I guess the same should also make it easier for those who are planning to rent a villa for a couple of weeks (crime according to the RoC law) or just having a lunch at the restaurant with Turkish settlers management?"



I doubt the government would have a huge problem with people renting for two weeks and giving a bit of custom to local eateries. Both activities are not quite in the same league as buying other people's property without their permission.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 23:15

Antonis Angastiniotis, the filmmaker (msg. 148)



"Is there any difference in the blood that ran from the veins of Selden in the Aloa (Atlilar) and that of Giorgos that "was lost" in the Palekithro? Is there any difference in the pain that Ali Faik experienced and the pain that Petros experienced? Do you see any difference in the chauvinistic characteristics of the murderers? Do you recognize any difference in the quality of the two leaderships that never prosecuted the murderers and have never given an official apology for all the evil that happened in this island? Don’t you wonder how these leaders speak to us about peace and reunification while they do not dare – they deny! – to offer a simple apology to the people? There is a big difference between returning the bones to the relatives mutely, from returning them with an apology and recognizing the responsibilities of your community to that crime. Except if the peace you are pursuing is fictitious."

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 23:17

Great quote msg 153. What a pity so many people aren't interested in hearing both sides of the atrocities.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 23:19

Erolz (msg 145) regarding moving forward ( Antonis Angastiniotis again)



"I look at the past because I see an open wound that needs to be healed. There are no shortcuts to peace, all issues must be addressed. If people are to focus on the future then we must first deal with the past. Why is the past important? Because it’s this past that the nationalists are using or misusing all the time to tell us we cannot live together. Greek nationalists will point to the past and say, “Look what the Turks have done” and Turkish nationalists will say, “Look what the Greeks have done”. When nationalists look in the past they are not lying but they are not saying the whole truth either. They conceal that part of the truth that is inconvenient to them. Crimes where committed but not from the whole community but from chauvinists of each community."

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 23:22

msg 132



"that the tc's have power in the negociations which isn't very substantial

who knows what a property settlement will look like...

we are all waiting with bated breath"



well-intentioned perhaps but far from reality I think



we seem to be pretty desperate to conjure up the spectre of an agreement

out of virtually nowhere



the tc's power in the negociations consists of

two turkish army divisions and more loosely, are the current possessors



the greek cypriots power in the negociations consisting of international recognition, an economic blockade, and the propaganda value

of all the above skullduggery



nether side trust each other in any way and neither will allow their daily existence to be only at the other's whim



if anybody can see an agreed settlement in any of this their eyesight must be substantially sharper than mine

as far as we know, there has been no subtantive progress in the current talks, and attitudes are hardening:

unfortunate perhaps?

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 23:35

Macha, msg 152



I was not asking about the government opinion but rather that of the GC refugees (if you can answer).

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 23:38

Magbs msg 155



I pretty much agree with all that Mr Angastiniotis says on this matter. I am a firm believer that Cyprus needs a truth and reconcilliation process similar to that used in SA post aprthied. I consider Mr Angastiniotis to be true Cypriot hero and have had the honour of discussing some of these things with him in the past. I try and do my best to not fall into that category that seeks to "conceal (or dismiss) that part of the truth that is inconvenient to them." What I personaly seek is understanding and not to propagate 'better propaganda' than the other side, as I feel is the agenda of some posters here. I do realise however that this is not always apparent in my postings. It can be hard to counter one sided accounts that seek to conceal part of the truth without resorting to posting the 'other side' in a not disimillar manner.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 23:39

Maqbs,



I don't think they would have a big problem either. I'm basing this on 15-odd years experience of the island and some good friendships with GCs and TCs, all but one of whom are refugees.

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 00:49

Erolz. Message 150.



I'm not sure where you are coming from here, Erolz.



I post a link to a GC journalist coming to terms with an EOKA atrocity and you say I should post links to Turkish atrocities to balance it up.



I thought that there many a plenty on this thread already.



Your response is totally confusing after all your previous postings.



Lem

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 00:56

Lem I am sorry. I should know by now that 'irony' rarely works in a text only medium.



I was 'ironicaly' taking Juliet's 'part' - where she seems to think that posting descriptions of Turkish attrocities is valid and welcome and necessary as a means to 'educate' people but any mention of Greek or GC attrocities should be covered under the 'it was war , all sides did bad things, it should be consigned to history and not dragged up repeatedly'.



I am sorry for the confusion and I really should know better. I hope that makes things a bit clearer. Sorry.

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 01:05

Erolz. No apology necesary. Thank you for the explanation, it makes sense now.



Over in late July, must meet up for a drink by the harbour, will email you beforehand.



Regards



Lem