The cyprus problem

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 14:35

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=44148&cat_id=1



Get your heads on please.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 14:38

It's all Greek to me !

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/02/2009 19:55

msge 3



Hi Paul



This is an external pressure that is forcing the two sides to talk. The UN is being very patient and allowing the Cypriots to decide their own fate, however the EU and NATO are likley to get impatient and probably very irrttated if the two sides don't reach a settlement, be that some type of reunification or an amicable divorce.

The EU and NATO will likely force their hand (plus Turkey) which may include the EU providing some type of sweetner to make a settlement happen.

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 20:44

http://www.northcyprus.biz/north_cyprus_FeedRedir.asp?FID=8774



Update on the talks,

Paul.

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 20:47

September 2008 was when the two leaders re-convined with the talks does anyone on here know if they have managed to agree on anything yet,

Paul.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
09/06/2009 21:44

although I do not believe that cyprus figures as a strategic place of importance,

paul's two articles reveal some fascinating undercurrents



the americans value turkey, a vital and stalwart nato founding member

this gives turkey an authority and staus it would not otherwise possess

but russia as a leading proponent of greek cyprus and supplier of its 41 t90 tanks,

is most unhappy about nato expansion and uneasy about "partnership for peace":

south cyprus is best off therefore toeing the party line on the issue



the idea of an eu carrot dangled in front of turkey for compliance on cyprus issues

has always had an aura of self-deception for me:

france and gernany, the real leaders of the european union, have made it obvious

with language like "priviledged non-member status" and "inappropriate"

that whatever may happen about cyprus, they will always block turkish membership

I have discussed the real reasons for this many times on other threads



the current talks? (sighs)

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 20:25

http://www.northcyprus.biz/north_cyprus_FeedRedir.asp?FID=8823



Time for international involvement now as the talks are obviously going nowhere,

Paul.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 20:33

I am not sure reuinification can take place in Cyprus due to the historical animosity and mistrust of both peoples which goes back to 1571 when the Turks first arrived on the island.

I personally believe the Irish model of having two states on the one geographic area makes more sense. Today we have a Northern island and a Republic of Ireland and no one is pushing the two to unite.

What is needed here is land adjustments, compensation for lost lands or properties from both sides and eventual acceptance of one another with secure borders. As its stands, we Greek Cypriots control 63 per cent of the total area and the Turkish Cypriots 37 per cent. Prior to 1974 the Turkish Cypriots never amounted to more than 20 per cent.

I suggest a 70-75 per cent control of the overall area to the Greek Cypriots. In return recognition by the Greek Cypriots and the international community.

Cont......

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 20:36

I do not think Turkey has the will to pull out 100,000 settlers and the 30,000-plus troops just to join the EU. On the other hand France, Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Denmark and most EU citizens do not want Turkey in the EU and prefer a privileged relationship rather than full EU membership – thus there is no incentive for Turkey.



I truly believe both communities prefer to govern themselves than one another.



Well here is a GC that has a realistic outlook he posted the above comments on Reuters

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 20:42

Saints,

Good post and surely that can be the only way forward.To much dirty water has flowed under many briges right back to the days of the Ottoman empire.How about a vote for two states,lets stop all this pussy footing around,lay down some ground rules and start agreeing on some issues before ts to late and the North are left out in the wilderness,

Paul.

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 20:46

The Greeks will never accept a compromise and in the words of the Queen song 'want it all'



The TC's haven't got the ability to co-ordinate a legitimate international response to the Greeks 'properly organised' assault.



GC's 6 - TC's 0 - Maybe a good idea! Let's have a football match to decide the outcome!

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 20:54

Mimo,

Surely you mean the gcs not the greeks.I totally agree with you that they(gcs) will never compromise so why bother with the negotiations is it just to go through the motions,

Paul.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 20:55

its been going on for 30 odd years and probably will go on for another 30 - seems a wast of time debating about it, in my humble opinion....

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 20:57

saints



i think both communities would be happy with that.



compensation hard one to agree but its not out of the question.



on the return of land issue



round about 70% is reasonable considering it was 80/20 before 74.

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 21:26

I think that it should be decided with a 'Simon Cowell' - type TV programme called 'Cyprus has got Donums'

Hobbit-1960


Joined: 18/06/2009
Posts: 3

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 21:31

Hello TheSaints



If the Greeks own 63% & Turrks own 37% what percentage is owned by ex pats?



Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that'll add up to more than 100%..!

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 21:37

Ex-pats own nothing. Some have the opposite of 'Internationally recognised' Deeds/Kocans which, when shove comes to push, can be used to prove that the holders are dealers in stolen property

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 21:42

Mimomar...msg 17



As subtle as a sledgehammer , but I take your point.



However,the ex-pat title holder can hardly be accused of "stealing" if they have paid in full for it.

Stealing usually involves getting something for nothing.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:00

cronus,



The British definition of theft.....



A person steals, who without the consent of the owner, fraudulently, and without a claim of right, made IN GOOD FAITH.



I understood TRNC law was based on British Law. If so, thats me in the clear!



wyn

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:02

Ever heard the term 'holding the baby' or, 'carrying the can'

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:02

Hiya Paul,



Is this not an example of....." the wall of pressure, from The International Community"?



wyn

clayton


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 1143

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:04

mimomar

your getting sweet f.a believe me.why people fall for the shit you keep spouting.to put it nicely go and do one.

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:06

Wynyardman - the definition of theft:-



being in possession, with the intention of permanently depriving someone of their property

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:07

Clayton, when decent words escape you

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:09

*someone (the owner)

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:11

MimoMar,



Correction.....Under British Law.....If you have a claim of right, made in good faith.......it is not theft, whether or not it is your intention to "permanently deprive the owner thereof!"



wyn

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:12

Wynyardman - under 'Britsh' Law???

clayton


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 1143

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:15

mim omar

how does bull shit sound.

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:22

I don't know but keep spouting it and I will let you know

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:25

Minomar,



Read message 19. It was made clear!!



wyn

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:29

Wyn - in that case, totally irrelevant!

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:33

Some of you GC guys must be having trouble thinking up new names. MimoMar, now realy.



Troodo

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:34

Observations of a someone just back from Girne,

Everyone is getting on with their lives and enjoying themselves:

Business looks to be good;

Tourism is alive and kicking despite the jumping through hoops to get to TRNC;

No one appears frightened of what may or may not happen regarding the property issues or anything else;

Sellers of property are not "losing the head" and are in fact holding out for their prices(hardly the actions of people who want to get shot of property)



They(Cypriots and ex pats) simply do not look that fussed about anything and I think they are both here to stay.

M

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:37

GC Guy - I don't think so, just someone facing up to the reality of being 'taken in'

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:40

No not taken in at all.Silent observations only.I saw no one gnashing their gums with worry...quite the opposite.

m

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:40

Wyn, in any event, buy a stolen car in good faith and whilst you may not be charged, the car will be taken off you and given back to the original owner (British Law)

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:49

can you buy a stolen car in good faith?



no expat has stolen property they are not the thieves the theives are the sellers who have lined thier pockets.



most of the expats where lied to by estate agents, lawyers and the trnc authorities.



they have not commited a crime if they honestly bought in good faith however buying in good faith still does not make you the legal owner

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:51

Minomar,



There are 30000 Turkish troops and the assurrance of The TRNC Government that leaves me feeling comfortable.



Now The GCs are drinking in the last drink saloon. They blew it with Annan Blow it again, and its farewell for ever!



Exchange is better that total and permanent loss.



There is something to give you sleepless nights.



wyn

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:54

Mixie, you are so very right.

We have just returned and while there saw restaurant's very busy hotels very busy, our hotel is fully booked all summer and I tried to book flights for later this year and can't get a flight.



Sounds like things are going to be good for TRNC this summer

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 22:57

If the Greeks own 63% & Turrks own 37% what percentage is owned by ex pats?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that'll add up to more than 100%..!





you are wrong we are talking about controled land the brits dont have anything they are either in the turkish area or greek area. what do you want a seperate state for the brits aswell.



also as pointed out some expats legally own nothing i wonder what percentage is that.

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:02

We all bought in good faith. We are all caught up, me included!



On reflection, I was 'silly' to believe and I think, the way things are going, that I will regret placing my faith in 'the system' HERE.

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:05

What I cannot understand is this......why aren't the turkish owners of the land that Larnaca was built on coming through and kicking up a strop?



Has anyone ever heard if they have done this? There is far too much emphasis on what the GC's lost. I am sure that the TC's lost lots of very valuable land that is now being utilised by the South.Is there a corresponding anger somewhere about this?



Probably not...the TC's have probably taken their exchange land in the North and got on with their life!!

M

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:09

Cheer up lads.



Question.....Would you rather hold a Kochan on an exchange land property, underwritten by Turkey, or be one of an estimated



100,000 people in The ROC who cannot get their deeds, because the land is mortgaged to banks?



wyn

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:13

There are 30000 Turkish troops and the assurrance of The TRNC Government that leaves me feeling comfortable.







Now The GCs are drinking in the last drink saloon. They blew it with Annan Blow it again, and its farewell for ever!

Exchange is better that total and permanent loss.

There is something to give you sleepless nights.









they blew nothing with the annan plan you have to accept that this was not a suitable solution for the gcs the only solution can be is a just and viable one that both sides agree.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:15

Or maybe Wyn they have a property built on TC land !

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:16

Probably not...the TC's have probably taken their exchange land in the North and got on with their life!!



M



what exchange land?

MimoMar


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 150

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:17

When the 'dirty' linen is washed, we 'may' see who has claimed (been given) what, on this side, and who, has 're-claimed' what, on the other side. Some will leave their footprints on both sides of the green line - we are just a means to an end.



Millions of £'s have changed hands, unfortunately the land hasn't.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:22

harry,



the only solution will be one that all three parties to the dispute agree and can keep to

but at least you don't seem to subscribe to all the "bang their heads together" claptrap



meanwhile we all wait in hope:

some hoping for this, some hoping for that, and some wrestling with inverted commas

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:23

Mixie msg 42



Unfortunately as we all know land in the north is "Stolen" but the land in the south is "compulsory purchased"



How fair is that.

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:27

My forefathers lost land before when a certain country was being unified. They didn't get it back. The land was fought for in blood.... both sides. It was over 100 years ago. My forefathers did not forget but the land was never returned.



I am not my forefather so I get on with my life. Such is life.



How long can people carry venom with them,,,40 years, 100 years, 500 years?

m

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:28

andre



you have just hit the nail on the head you say 3 parties.





by three parties i assume you are including turkey



a solution must be reached by cypriots turkey should stay out of it

are you saying that the trnc is part of turkey?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:35

Msg 45. Good point Turtle!



Re msg 43 How about if the whole sordid mess was swept under the carpet (typical EC reaction to gross embarassment)



everyone stays in the homes that they are in, and Internationally recognised deeds all round, with The EC picking up the tab



for The ROC deeds. If they dont The ROC construction industry will collapse when the banks call the mortgages in!



Now that is what you could call a sweetener to encourage a settlement.



wyn

andy-f


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 1256

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:36

more chance of a united cyprus than manchester united and liverpool joining at the hip and plying in the prem as manliverpool fc! let them argue for ever nothing will change

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:44

Wyn message45

I think the ROC building industry is just about at the collapse stage but they haven't quite twigged. Huge amounts of properties for sale. Some built and not sold, some part built and some sold and looking for resale again. Everyone has heard of boom in the South but they still need to learn that with boom comes bust.!!

No one willing to drop prices.

We have all learned the boom and bust story back home but so far for the south it has been up. up and up but they should be ready for the down any time now!

m

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
18/06/2009 23:46

harry message 51



yes I said there are three parties to the dispute which of course includes turkey

north cyprus is most definitely not part of turkey yet but it very may well be in future,

and I think that would qualify as a perfectly valid solution to the problems of cyprus

bachelibelly


Joined: 04/09/2008
Posts: 275

Message Posted:
19/06/2009 00:03

I just hope that if and it is a big IF that some sort of land/property settlement is agreed,that given the G/Cs long history of honesty and fair play ,that when the vaults of the Land Registry are opened in the ROC and all these so called Title Deeds are produced ,showing G/Cs owning all the prestige land both north and south,i sincerely hope that the INK IS DRY !!!!!!

daz1999


Joined: 22/05/2009
Posts: 11

Message Posted:
19/06/2009 00:11

i think you all have forgot what it was like before the war in 74 the greeks will never agree on a settlment cos they think the whole island should b theirs the same reason that started this separation in 74 get rid of macarios then the turks that came from mainland grece that will never chainge so this works keep the greeks on their side.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/06/2009 00:25

Re msg 8/9 TheSaints

>>I am not sure reuinification can take place in Cyprus<<

I agree - the only game in town is bi-zonal autonomous regions of a federated state..



>>I personally believe the Irish model of having two states on the one geographic area makes more sense. Today we have a Northern island and a Republic of Ireland and no one is pushing the two to unite. <<



Hmmm, and how much do you know about the Irelands? The end game of many nationalists in the north is STILL unification - but by peaceful means - N.Ireland is only part of the UK as long as the maj. of voters there wish it... demographic trends suggest a referendum on unification might go through, ultimately.



Sinn Féin managed to win the most votes in N.I for the first time - as the Unionist vote is split - and they frighten the hell out of the "old" parties in the south..



Nope, Cyprus isn't like N.I.. it's ethnic split happened longer ago, but the divide wasn't so precise.

ebbern5


Joined: 03/06/2008
Posts: 79

Message Posted:
19/06/2009 00:34

I was always led to beleive that in English law possession was 9/10 ths of the law.



And can anyone tell me why Turkey is so keen to get into the EU when it costs Britain some 40 Million per DAY

to be a member.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/06/2009 00:35

cont



Most ppl in the "Irelands" has their differing aspirations - but realise that it isn't worth dting for - and that the island is too small in a competitive world to survive without working together on many projects and business - e.g. Tourism .



It is the continued Turkification of Cyprus which some think will bring stability - that may well actually bring Cypriots closer together.. TR must either annexe the north or seek help - to prop up an economy of a micro "state" that is NEVER going to be self - sustainable .



This recession might just be the catalyst...



Right now we have TR blocking CY membership of some "clubs", and preventing free trade / overflying and the RoC being an excuse to slow down TRs membership of the EU.



Again - lack of money - might bring some "action" 0 hopefully non aggressive..

ebbern5


Joined: 03/06/2008
Posts: 79

Message Posted:
19/06/2009 00:36

Sorry I before e except after c.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
19/06/2009 00:37

The comment I posted was not my words,please see the messages again, that was a statement posted by a GC on the Reuters News website I just thought that it was an interesting point of view from a Greek Cypriot.



How much do I know about Ireland, not a lot but being tail end charlie on a patrol on the Shankhill Road in the 70's was the best known laxative to man ;-)

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
19/06/2009 00:46

with respect to mark, there is one curious parallel between ireland and turkey:



some northern ireland republicans were said to temporarily accept a loyalist-dominated north

because they believed the republican minority in the north will oputbreed the proddies in fifty years or so



and the two leading nations of the eu, france and germany, very much fear turkey ever joining the eu

because within ten years the combined population of turkey-plus-the-united-kingdom

would be greater than theirs and they could be....outvoted!



heaven forbid

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
19/06/2009 01:13

Great stuff guys.I casted in and look what i got a proper 44 debate.No one on here has a crystal ball so lets see what happens.I personally see a two state solution with sweeteners for the north such as direct flights and embargoes lifted (utopia)



Wynn,enjoy your D.I.Y.

Paul.