Israel blocks aid to the GAZA

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 18:56

Dominic Waghorn, Middle East correspondent

In a vast hall in an Egyptian holiday resort, almost 50 nations have pledged equally enormous sums of cash to help rebuild Gaza.



Aid for Palestinians in Gaza



Aid for Palestinians in Gaza



New US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton pledged $900m (£637m) from America alone. The total target for conference is $2.8bn (£2bn).



But raising money is not really the issue. There is a much knottier problem to resolve.



The problem is that however much money is promised and however much aid that buys, Israel will only allow a fraction of it in to Gaza.



Officially, Israel insists all the aid that Gaza needs is being allowed in. The cabinet minister responsible, Isaac Herzog, recently said about 100 trucks a day is about as much as can be absorbed by the Palestinians on a daily basis.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 18:57

* Home

* UK News

* World News

* Business

* Politics



* video

* Showbiz News

* Technology

* Strange News

* Weather



* Your Videos

* Your Photos

* Blogs

* Discussions

* Contact Us



* David and Diane Chenery-Wickens Minister Killed Make-Up Artist Wife chevron

* David Moffett Freddie Mac Boss Moffett Quits chevron

* Jade Goody leaves the Royal Marsden hospital on February 18, 2009 Jade Goody Transferred For Tests chevron

* Speeding biker Motorcyclist Jailed For 122mph Ride chevron

* Marquis Cooper (left) and Corey Smith Search For NFL Players Lost At Sea chevron



Top Stories

'Israel Allows Rice Into Gaza But Not Pasta'



3:07pm UK, Monday March 02, 2009



Dominic Waghorn, Middle East correspondent

In a vast hall in an Egyptian holiday resort, almost 50 nations have pledged equally enormous sums of cash to help rebuild Gaza.



Aid for Palestinians in Gaza



Aid for Palestinians

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 18:59

e Into Gaza But Not Pasta'



3:07pm UK, Monday March 02, 2009



Dominic Waghorn, Middle East correspondent

In a vast hall in an Egyptian holiday resort, almost 50 nations have pledged equally enormous sums of cash to help rebuild Gaza.



Aid for Palestinians in Gaza



Aid for Palestinians in Gaza



New US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton pledged $900m (£637m) from America alone. The total target for conference is $2.8bn (£2bn).



But raising money is not really the issue. There is a much knottier problem to resolve.



The problem is that however much money is promised and however much aid that buys, Israel will only allow a fraction of it in to Gaza.



Officially, Israel insists all the aid that Gaza needs is being allowed in. The cabinet minister responsible, Isaac Herzog, recently said about 100 trucks a day is about as much as can be absorbed by the Palestinians on a daily basis.

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 19:00

think the us is sorting it out.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

















spider.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 19:00

Why won't they allow the aid into Gaza...?

david123


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 393

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 19:53

Hi Dee,



oh no not you again.



Thought I was having a break from you.



lol.



David

CJtill


Joined: 02/05/2008
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
02/03/2009 21:25

Dont worry Tony Blair will sort it all out.

There will be peace by Christmas.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 00:35

dc msg 1:



the israeli public are convinced that whoever governs gaza

must act to stop rockets being fired into israel,

while civil defence measures in towns like beersheba and siderot

have prevented many more potential deaths and injuries



the israeli military is at the same time sending a blunt message to iran

which supplies hamas with the new longer-range grad rockets,

as well as valuable political support and cash: don't mess with us



likewise, repeated suicide bombings, had more or less closed off

all the many job and business opportunities

previously enjoyed by palestinians:

why employ people who might just kill you,

when romanians and thais are happy to go over there and work on contract

and very much appreciate the money they are making for their families?



or perhaps you think that for some obscure reasons that alone among the nations of the world, palestinians are congenitally incapable of calculating

the true cost of harbouring terrorist groups?

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 08:16

Hi David..you don't need a break lol.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 08:25

Nobody argues with you about the expectations of the Israeli public sitting in a bomb shelter in Ashdod thier ability to look further than retriubution can be understood.

The Israeli military are sending a clear message to Iran- i wasn't aware that Israel was a military state?



It was not suicide bombings that closed off job opurtunities to the Palestinians but the Gettoization of Gaza and the West Bank.there is no proven satistics that erecting a wall around Ramalla Jennin Bethlehem and a scores of other smaller arab villages has had any reduction in bomb attacks.

The ceasing the Infada saw to that.

What the building of walls has done is allow the continued increase of israeli settlements close to those arab villages and afforded them a degree of security that wasn't there before.

As regards terroist groups the West conviently forgets its arming of the Mujhadien in Afganistan in thier war against the USSR, an occupiing army, prior to 6 day war, the west bank wasn't Israel



let

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 08:32

it was Jordon, it was Syria it was Leannon these are occupied terrotories that israel has absaloutly no intention of handing back and yet has been the subject of no sanctions.



They have successfully backed the Palestinians into a corner they have given them no hope, no future they react back in any way they can.

ANC fighting against an opresive regiem Freedom fighter or Terrorist? i know this is an old cliche but it is still apt.



The Israeli's need to address the issues why there is Hamas why there are children willing to lay down thier lives as human bombs.

Whole sale slaughter of a nation is not the answer .

They of all peoples in the World should know that.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 09:35

Israel has and will always block aid to Palestine, they do not want a solution, they just want to slowly take over...and the rest of the world does very little to force them to let aid through.



Israel is a very powerful state and she will do whatever she likes regardless of the death and destruction of the Palestinian ppls.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11280

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 19:50

RE msg 12, DC4 : (...) Israel is a very powerful state and she will do whatever she likes regardless of the death and destruction of the Palestinian ppls (...)



===> Exactly, Dee. When your friends are few and your enemies are many (throughout the ages), what would you care?

===> Israel will strike when necessary -- very, very good! I really do hope Iran will be the next target. Or would you like the fall-out of an Iranian nuclear bomb on Israel - raining down on Cyprus?! For two reasons *I* don't want that: no nuclear bomb on Israel, no fall-out on Cyprus. Dream, moan and whinge on, Dee.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 19:54

DC my friend, there will be no Iranian nuclear bomb on Israel, the Iranians are stupid, they know what that would mean...just my opinion of course.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11280

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 20:15

RE msg 14, DC4 : (...) DC my friend, there will be no Iranian nuclear bomb on Israel, the Iranians are stupid, they know what that would mean (...)



===> Dear Dee, at this very moment the Iranians are stupid enough to challenge the world with a nuclear program - Israel will not be fooled by (British) softies. The lessons of thousands of progroms, a major Holocaust and several defensive wars are learned -- and will not be forgotten. Israel will *** never*** be annihilated, it will take the surrounding world down to ashes also - if necessary. WHEN IT IS ATTACKED. The main message is: Don't do it. I'm sure the stupid Mullah's in Iran will not get a chance to read the history books again, when Israel has talked back, probably this year. Dee, you'd better send your texts to Hamas and the Iranian Mullah's. Don't support them -- mail them about your concerns.

kenny



Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 405

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 20:37

America pledge $900 mil, was it not

americal weapons that done all the damage !

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 20:47

i think the Aid is getting in....spider..Most countrys have and sell Weapons.shame.to think it is all Man MADE..and war Man DOING..















spider

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11280

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 20:48

RE msg 16, kenny : (...) America pledge $900 mil, was it not americal weapons that done all the damage ! (...)



===> I'm not quite sure whether anyone understands what you were trying to write and explain. Try again and think it over before you press the "Post Reply" button, please?

kenny



Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 405

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 21:09

your problem if you dont undestand the point i was making





american ok d/c

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11280

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 21:17

RE msg 20, kenny: (...) your problem if you dont undestand the point i was making (...)



===> Yeah. But who did..?!

kenny



Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 405

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 21:26

i dont realy care anymore, just as long as you did'nt.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11280

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 21:30

RE msg 22, kenny : (...) dont (...) did'nt (...)



===> Ay, ay, ay! How about "don't" and "didn't"? Well, I hope you are a good shipbuilder...

kenny



Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 405

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 21:35

get offf mi bak d/c and take your arrogance with you please !

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 21:39

kenny dont fret..his getting worked up..

















spider..

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 21:44

OMG, how some people can be such ignorant!



Have you ever looked at the map? Interested where Gaza borders lie? Oops, there is a common border with Egypt and no Israelis there. And how many trucks with aid came from Egypt? What about Rafah crossing from which EU Border Mission fled for fear of being kidnapped or bombed? And why the hell Arab foreign ministers and PA officials presented a united front against control of the border by Hamas.



Too complicated, eh? Instead let's put the blame on Israel, it's much easier than thinking.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11280

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 21:52

RE msg 24, kenny : (...) get offf mi bak d/c and take your arrogance with you please ! (...)





===> "offf mi bak"..?! Does this mean you call a good education "arrogance"..? OK, I rest my case - one can fight anything except stupidity.



N.B. Don't forget to read msg 26.





*********** PS . Please remember rule 3 --------- Simbas

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 22:28

To all ..you will not get through to any of anti -Israel brigade so youmay as well give up.They dont understand that Israel has the right to defend herself.O.K.her response may well be heavy handed but that is her right.All the donating countries have stated that they do NOT want this money falling into the hands of Hamas.There is adequate supplies getting through to Gazza but itis being controlled for distribution by Hamas IE. given to there true supporters first and the rest afterwards.

Hippo.None of the coutries you mentioned are occupied by Israel.I was in Jordan in November2008 and did not see any Israeli Forces.The Golan heights were given back to Syria some time ago and there is no occupation of Lebanon.If the Iranians have not got the message about developing neuclear weapons they had better remember what happened in Syria not so long ago when Israel took out one of there probable sites and you know what,Syria never said a word.Funny that..

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 22:37

ref msg16..kenny this should not surprise you ... 'if you wont to build your country allow the "US" to bomb you to smitherens' unfortunately what is rebuilt in this instance the US ( Israel ) will destruct again!

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
03/03/2009 23:12

Could someone more knowledgable than me explain a simple question.

I am trying to phrase it carefully as I do not wish to be seen as supporting one side or the other. But...



When American/British soldiers are killed, or bombs go off in London etc many of these people are out in the streets celebrating.

O.K I understand they neither like or agree with our way of life.

That is there prerogative. I accept many see US and UK as aggressors.

But my question is not one of politics however difficult it is to parcelise these things, but rather a question of "I don't understand why"...



The question...



When aid is called for it is in the main the West who gives it.



But the middle east countries are awash with billions and billions of petro dollars and yet they never take the first step in offering aid?



Or am I wrong... I just find this odd... or is the info not getting through to me?



Regards Joseph

david123


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 393

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 00:26

Hi Dee,



Hope you had a good break?



Now what can we argue about!



lol.



David.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 05:40

First of all Coachie-get your facts right or read what I said.

Golan heights still in Israel.

What i said is that territory that prior to the 6 day war that was part of Jordon, Lebanon and Syria has been occupied by Israel and still remains so,

Why has the UN not demanded that it should be returned?

Why has Israel devloped these areas and not been sanctioned.?

One rule for one (TRNC) one rule for another.



'Iran will be the next target'





So the MC advocates another bout of agression in the Middle East so as well as |Iraq and Afganistan we are going to have Iran and i take it you will be sending the Dutch Armed forces in sort it out?

From what i can see from your postings is that you are a little anti Muslim i wonder why you choose to live in a muslim society?

Does anybody censure the Israeli nucleur programmee?

No! why? because the west gave it to them in the first place,

******* PN , Please remember rule 3 , I am deleting your personal remark against a fellow poster , ------ Simbas

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 06:23

msg 15







I would like to draw your attention to a small statement in msg 15 'British softies.'

Where those the same British Softies who landed at Arnhem?

Oh how easily a nation forgets !!!





******** PS , Rule 3 , i am deleting your personal remark made against a fellow poster --- Simbas

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 08:08

The Golan Heights are of great strategic importance in the region and were Syrian territory until Israel captured the region on 9-10 June 1967 during the Six-Day War. Since then, the area has remained under Israeli control. Israel successfully defended the territory in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, though a portion was later returned to Syria. In 1981, the area was annexed by Israel, a move not recognized and condemned internationally and called "inadmissible" by the UN Security Council



That answers Coachies question about the Golan.

It now posses another question ;why hasnt Israel recieved the sanctions that the TRNC has?

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 08:25

Morning Hippo, because Israel is mighty and powerful and has great wealth and influence in the USA...most media outlets are Jewish run and the senate is mostly make up of Jews...

pinkchilli


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 689

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 08:57

I read somewhere that the reason Israel is so heavily supported by Americans is not because of the Jewish support, nor the Jewish media interests, but because of the Christian churches in America.



They believe in the "second coming" of Christ. They believe this will occur in Israel.



http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20080701faessay87402/walter-russell-mead/the-new-israel-and-the-old.html

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 09:00

Exactly Dee; and who was it that refused to join the rest of the World in calling for a cease to hostilitys in Gaza?



Who's overseas aid budget of 18 billion allocates 9billion to Israel?



Who engineered the coup in 74' which resulted in the Turkish Intervention.



Who jammed the greek radar to enable the landings.



Who used the pretect of weapons of mass destruction to start a war to protect thier overseas oil markets.



Who's country's construction firms recieved the majority of rebuilding projects in Iraq and Kuwait



Which country has masive oil reserves untouched but continue to be the largest fosil fuel user in the world, just use others.



Stand up and be counted America- world ploiceman you are not world agitator yes you are

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 10:20

There is absolutely no Jordanian territory uder Israeli occupation.



Both contries signed a peace treaty and the land issues were settled. The same applies to Egypt.

There are no Israeli forces on Lebanese land since 2000, that was 100% approved by UN, while on the other side a Leabanese government was too week to deploy it forces along the border as required by UN resolutions.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 10:22

Now about the Golans. Indeed, Hypo, they are of highest strategic importance and are under Israeli control. I believe the territory should and will be returned but only as a part of REAL and honest pease agreement (see Egypt and Jordan precedents). Unfortunatelly the current situation is far from being trustful. No one no where just leaves a territory without any agreement with other side. Only Israel did it with Gaza and South Lebanon and that was a big mistake.



All UN resolutions you are reffering to are saying what should be at the end but you need BOTH players with SINGLE and AUTHORIZED leadership to elaborate the details.



N.B I honestly believe Israeli border should be somewhat very close to the pre-6 days war green line.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 10:47

msg 36 try to be correct, confirm before typing



2007 US aid

Israel 2.7 b

Egypt 1.8b

The assitance took off mostly after the 1979 Camp David peace agreement

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 17:46

Ref msg29 Joseph .. you question is premised on and IS politically loaded no matter how hard you may wish to obscure it but here is something to help you along to understand: Dr Robert Bowman: “we are not hated because we practice democracy, freedom, and human rights. We are hated because our government denies these things to people in third-world countries whose resources are coveted by our multinational corporations. And that hatred we have sown has come back to haunt us in the form of terrorism and, in the future, nuclear terrorism. Once the truth about why the threat exists is understood, the solution becomes obvious. We must change our government’s ways”.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 18:49

Hi Fred8... apologies but... I knew however hard I tried to put this question I would be accused of underhand/obscure aims... not so.



What you must understand is that there are millions of people like myself who are totally at a loss to make sense of all the bloodshed, by both parties.

One side will claim justification just as righteously as the other.

So who are we to judge?



I recall during the Israeli - Egyptian conflict, President Sadat of Egypt boarded a plane to Jerusalem to meet the then P.M. of Israel.

The world stood to acclaim such courage and determination, of both men, to try to stop the bloodshed at that time. Sadly ... We all know what happened.



So try to get it through your head... I ask what I hoped was a neutral question.

So let me ask again just plain and simple...



Why are the oil rich middle eastern countries never the first to step forward with aid for people in such areas?



Or am I wrong... and the info does not get through?



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 19:11

Fred8...



cont...



And with regards to your quote from Bowman I could not agree more with those sentiments. Accountability is a drum I have beaten for a long time and will continue to do so. Whether pertaining to governments (my particular gripe

or multinationals.



Regards Joseph

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 19:55

I was hoping that you would infer an answer to your question from the bowmen quote -at least to part of the question if not in totality. B let me first correct you on one thing: right in the immedate cessation of hostility Saudi Arabia and some of the Gulf States promised over 2 Bn to Gaza; this belies the premis of your question BUT I would certainly agree with you if you raised the question are arab states doing enough for their Palestenian bretherens. All the oil money incidently is invested in the US and mayfair london mostly in real estate to detriment of real development(in the broadest sense) within the arab states. Coming to the Bowmen quote two important points. One the draining of the resources from the developing countries (donars conference recycles some of the excessive profits - by jumping on the bandwagon of being a contributor makes good public relations. By the way whether the money is evetually given is another matter. Can you recall the Bonn Conference and the ....

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 20:07

London conferenceon Afghanistan? I let you figure as to how much of the donors pledges has reached Afghanistan.



The second point is donorS do not pledge out of the goodness of their heart! If you recall on this forum the thread of US arms to the Israelis at the peak of the last gaza bombardment being refused to be allowed to pass through Greece? Yet the US is now pledging 900 Million dollars! Bowmen hints at another aspect: injustice and hopelessness increase frustration and which in turn leads to Terrrorism 'which threatens a western way of life" (and some of the western client states, e.g. SA and Egypt). So in order to keep the lid on the pressure cooker exploding you jump in with money to give the human spirit some dignity before the en mass explode against you! The west nows very well what it is doing by jumping first to pledge

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 20:46

deecyprus: "Israel is mighty and powerful and has great wealth and influence in the USA...most media outlets are Jewish run and the senate is mostly make up of Jews..."



This "Red Sea Pedestrian" would like to know your source for this bold assertion.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
04/03/2009 20:47

Hi Fred8... now thats what I call a good answer... well said.



Certainly better than accusations of loaded "political" bias. Thank you.



Re... I would certainly agree with you if you raised the question are arab states doing enough for their Palestinian bretherens. All the oil money incidently is invested in the US and mayfair london mostly in real estate to detriment of real development(in the broadest sense) within the arab states.

My point exactly.



Re Bowman ...His beliefs in foreign relations reform (freeing the American people from the threat of nuclear terrorism by a return to a Constitutional foreign and military policy which refuses to go to war for the financial interests of the wealthy few) is a belief I share. And as the uk forever hangs on to the US shirt tail if such a policy was in place I doubt we would be in Iraq?



See my tag re Corruption fraud or downright dishonesty?



They say if you want real answers follow the money ...



Kind regards



Joseph

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 10:46

Msg 40, Fred8.



You have chosen to quote some less controversial conclusions of Robert Bowman. But in fact he belongs to what I call "self-hating" movement. With his believes in all these conspiracy theories he goes too far. The one who says on the left and right US administration orchestrated 9/11 shows where he really stands. No, he even did not mean that by bad behaviour americans invited the punishment on themselves. The one who is an active member of "Scholars for 9/11Truth" just can't provide reasonable and intelligent arguments against the "evils of capitalism" or whatsoever.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 15:50

Hi Guys great discussion



Trying not to hijack this thread into a Bowman tag but…



M would you none the less agree that some of Bowman’s beliefs were inherently worthy ..e.g. workers rights etc… and perhaps in this case US foreign policy as a starting point for debate and policy formation.

Though that in itself raises such contentious matters as too how aggressive the US can be in defending what it sees as being in “The National Interest”

i.e. oil? As such that is why the need in my case to be selective.



A simple analogy for me would be New Labour.

Like most I supported the policy of University Education for all and their promise not to introduce tuition fees. We all know what happened, no sooner elected than they introduce such fees and 11 years later hundreds of thousands of our young are saddled with huge debts. This for me is simply a corruption of what they promised, and yet I would be “selective” and agree with the original tenet.



Fred8 … I think

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 15:52

cont..



Fred8 …

I think where Bowman loses credibility are when his various claims become either untenable or lack evidence, as pointed out by M …whether that be his various conspiracy theories or awards etc. I think it a case of the messenger falling into the trap of believing he has become more important than the message? (I see this with his religious beliefs)



A simple analogy for me would be New Labour.

So many to choose … but… remember weapons of mass destruction.

We still await the evidence and when that same is not forthcoming we are fudged off with “I can apologise but what I won’t apologise for is…”

I am not weighing the pros or cons of the Iraq war but asking why we were never told the truth, and without truth, any credibility disappears, be the need right or wrong.



Great discussion



Regards Joseph

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 21:58

Joseph,



Referring to your statement about US foreign policy….I would like to ask you about alternatives. I don't want to oversimplify but don't you think if Americans adopt "stay-at-home" policy someone else will fill the vacuum? I am not a great fun of US foreign policy but I am not sure who I'd like to see in place of them. What I am pretty sure is that the place will never be empty and not divided EU will be able to take it. So could you imagine China taking leadership and settling conflicts with less bulliness? Or maybe Russians will demonstrate more fairness? (Ok, they are not claiming global leadership, but rather Putin's multi-polar world division).



When I think of this I feel like many voters on election day, hesitating and, at the end of the day, giving their voices to someone who is less unpleasant.



N.B. I don't know much about New Labours but somehow I remember Blair's speech when after becoming leader he proposed the new party manifest.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 22:03

Cont



Indeed, great discussion, but I am afraid it has nothing to do with the thread title. Should we start a new topic under the name of NEW WORLD ORDER?

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 22:23

Hi Magbs...



Sorry... I in know way wished to infer US foriegn policy was right, or wrong?

My contention was how it came to formulate the policy itself.



Re Bowman as discussed above, he contends that US policy had moved too far in favour of the needs of multinational interests which of itself may not be in the US National Interest. I agree with such premise because I think there is a difference.



This is why I question the validity of UK in the Iraqi war. It might seem like splitting hairs... but bear with me... I am careful not declare one way or the other as to it's justification but rather question what information we were given as to that very validity... for there is no bigger sacrifice a politician can ask of their people than to risk their youth in war and therefore I maintain such request must be clear, honest and justified.



When the war was going well you couldn't get our PM off the tele, but going badly... then blame was firmly placed upon the US. I think...

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 22:26

When the war was going well you couldn't get our PM off the television, but going badly... then blame was firmly placed upon the US.

I think this was immoral.



I believe "The West" owes a huge debt to America and one cannot argue with the sacrifices it has made on our behalf. My question/answer was more to do with policy formation etc.



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 22:32

Re...Indeed, great discussion, but I am afraid it has nothing to do with the thread title. Should we start a new topic under the name of NEW WORLD ORDER?



Sorry... I was just enjoying the cut and thrust



I'll leave off so you can to get back to thread title.



Regards Joseph

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 22:42

Is not the problem that the Jews have been told that they are Gods chosen people? Maybe

Joseph is absolutely right. Perhaps we should extend the debate to "New World Order")



I lived for a while in Israel, in fact it is where I met The Lady Wyn, but it was enough to see the vunerability of the state, and the collective anxiety that the Israeli people live under.



wyn

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 23:51

Wynyardman, you've got the point! Contrary to the wrong image of mighty Goliath it is absolutely venerable state and when you act under this anxiety no matter what you do the results are unsatisfying.



If you lived in Israel you might notice that for most Israelis "chosen people" is just a Bible saying, not something to base the attitude on.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 23:59

Ok, I am off for today.



We definitely need to close the thread and open a new one. I am still a newbi and like to ask the veterans to do it