Akin trying to blame others!

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 12:33

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news



even his own general admits he shot solomou.....

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 12:42

it wasn't me!

where have i heard that before?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 13:07

Dirty murdering b****** on the loose in the TRNC? Nothing new there, then...

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 13:19

and he wants to run for there so called goverment.....

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 13:28

Turkey would benefit from showing some decency and handing him over to Interpol through the United Nations. Is it too much to expect?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 13:40

Turkey hushed up his smuggling mobile phones from the trnc!! he even got away with that.....

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 13:53

juliet,

maybe he phoned a friend!

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 13:58

sounds like he has "friend"s in all the right places! it`s about time he got what he deserverd as Macha so righty says...

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 15:28

Dont worry

Dee will come on here and tell us that he is a really nice man ;-)

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 15:31

innocent untill proven guilty

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 15:43

Ronaldo



Correct he is although there is not chance of him being handed over to face trial is there?

redtom


Joined: 30/12/2008
Posts: 116

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 16:10

Once again a controversal subject is posted ( Akin ) , And hey guess what all the lunatics are back out of the asylums.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 16:19

Redtom



Akin used to be involved in the running of the country that some people on this board say is "home". Not only have they defended him but they are quite happy for him to run again to be involved in the running of the country.



Lunatics taking over the asylum springs to mind lol

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 16:30

Bubble n squeak reunion

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 16:37

This transexual has re-opened a closed thread. We covered all this crap and nothing new is forthcoming. The other half of the double act is of course joining in.



can we close it please.



Stubs, I did view the footage of the shooting and it was a horrible thing to happen. In the real time footage it looks clear a person was at a window pointing something. But in the still photo it looks like a ghost. Makes me wonder in this day and age how comes it could not be made clearer. In no way can this confirm the shootist.



The thread was closed and all the two saddos above want to do is rake over old muck.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 16:47

Twiggy



The last thread was just lay dormant.



An international arrest warrant has been issued for this man much in the same way that an international arrest warrant had been issued for other in the TRNC Gary Robb, Chicken Pete or whatever his name was amongst others.



It is not for us or anyone else to try him however there are loads of things in the press and now a former officer in the TC army calls a press conference to clear his own name.



If Akin is innocent as he claimed why does he not hand himself over to clear his name?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 16:51

stubs msg 16,



I couldn't agree more - and what with the transgender hormones it's hard enough to make my mind up.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 17:00

stubby, (getting my own back)!!



Sorry I made a mistake....I was the last idiot to post on it. Well it should have been closed, also this one. (in my opinion)



I understand what you are saying and justice needs to be done. How many have claimed t o be innocent and have turned out to be guilty.....Fair trial seems to be a stumbling block here I think.



What if the two leaders are talking amnesty e as in N.I. Killers in the name of freedom and all that guff were releasd from both sides and some had killed more than once.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 17:56

tiggy

are you having some sort of crisis?

you seem pretty p---ed off today!

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 18:08

Thanks for asking Rose. No crisis. not piss@d off in the slightest. Just replying to stubsy and letting him know. Nothing I can see that would make you come to the wrong conclussion is typed above. I apologised to him for a mistake I had made.



You may have the wrong glasses on !

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 18:49

Twiggy



I understand what you are getting at with the comparisons of N.I.



However I dont think that any of the politicians involved in the troubles in Ireland actually were personally accused of shooting someone. Furthermore I can't recall any of them being pictured in the press holding arms or having international arrest warrants out on them.



As for having this thread closed I don't really know why you think that should be?



If there is one fugitive being harboured by the TRNC authorities then it is one too many. Here is a country which is unrecognised and for many years wanted recognition. Yet in the eyes of many in the international community it is seen to harbour criminals. The TRNC only deports people as and when it sees fit. You only have to look at the people who have been deported over the years to see that.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 18:56

cont



There are a few people in the TRNC who are on the run, make no doubt about it. Some for petty crimes others for major crimes.



What makes Akin different is that he was on the government at the time of the aledged incident and now wants to stand again and be part of a government. Do you think he wants a solution? No chance because then someone will come chapping at his door with a warrant for his arrest. So there is someone who could potentially have a say in a settlement but has a more personal interest in the outcome than what Cypriots have. This man is not a Cypriot.



I dont think it is right that someone with an arrest warrant should be allowed to stand for a place on government.



Is it any wonder that some in the international community believe the GC propaganda machine when it says the north harbours criminals? Look at who it is harbouring.



I do agree that he is innocent until proven guilty however he should still have to answer the warrant!

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 21:09

but will he ever stubs?

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
05/03/2009 23:48

Stubs, (drop the W)



This may well be mentioned in talks between the two leaders. He may get amnesty, who knows. I would rather he stood up and faced a court and put his side forward. This may or may not happen.



Since this shooting how many others have been killed on the divided Island??



Ireland suffered terrible murders that spread to Britain and afar. We saw the two SAS lads beaten to death on the TV for gods sake.



If a TC had attempted to do the same thing to the GC flag and was caught I rather think he would have received more than a boot up the arse from the baying crowd.



It will take decades for the hurt to heal. Only the young can move forward quiicker.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 02:10

Sorry Tiggy for the typo.



As i said in my earlier post to compare Akin to what happened in Ireland would be like accusations of Ian Paisley/Martin McGuiness being accused of killing someone.



What I am amazed at is that this man who is a mainlander may have a say on a political settlement.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 04:42

Juliet msg 1



first off the link to the actual article is this one



http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=44384&cat_id=1



In the interests of accuracy



"even his own general admits he shot solomou..... "



The person you refer to as a General was not a General and no where in the article does it say this. General is not the same as officer. The officer concerned does not say that Akin shot Solomou according to the article. "strongly infering that Akin TRIED to shoot Solomou" is not the same as "admiting he shot Solomou".

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 15:35

Erolz



As a Cypriot how would you feel if this man was allowed into government?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 15:53

Stubs msg 27



"As a Cypriot how would you feel if this man was allowed into government?"



As a Cypriot I would be ashamed and embarassed if this man, who is by the way a Cypriot citizen according to the TRNC so in my view should be treated equally as one, was to be elected to parliament again.



Just as, as a Cypriot I am embarassed and ashamed at all the know murderers and criminals that were MP's and minsters in the RoC government thorough the 60s 70s 80s and into the 90s, who never had to worry about amnesty or international warrants because no effort was ever taken to hold to account for their actions or ever will be. Just as I am embrassed at the RoC supporting and harbouring and supplying passports to known international terrorist like Abdullah Öcalan.



In my view Akin should be held to account for his actions on that day by a court of law, but he should also be allowed a fair trial as well and not be made a scapegoat.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 16:36

Erolz



He may be a Cypriot citizen but so was Gary Robb...lol. Doesnt make him a Cypriot though.



The second part of your post is spot on by the way.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 16:44

Stubs msg 29



"He may be a Cypriot citizen but so was Gary Robb...lol. Doesnt make him a Cypriot though."



I am of the view that if someone is a Cypriot Citizen, under laws that I accept as valid, then they should be treated equally and fairly as any other citizen. I do not subscribe to the view, like some, that some citizens are 'real' or 'true' cypriots and others are not as I do not subscribe to the view that some British Citizens are 'real and 'true' citizens and other Citizens are not. That to me is blantant discrimination.



Gary Robb should in my opinion have never been given citizenship, but the TRNC is not the first place to grant citizenship to wealthy and or 'dodgy' characters and it will not be last.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 17:22

Erolz



We could go off in a different tangent with this one.



As you know many Cypriots have British passports and stayed in the UK for lenthy periods. Does that make them British or Cypriots or British Cypriots who knows.



I remember reading something a while back which may still be the case perhaps someone else may verify this. But it is it not written in the constitution that a Cypriot Citizen (ie id card holder) can not be extradited from Cyprus?



Id also like to add that many Cypriots view Turkish mainlanders as different. Legally they may be the same however in reality they are not.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 17:30

stubs msg 31



"As you know many Cypriots have British passports and stayed in the UK for lenthy periods. Does that make them British or Cypriots or British Cypriots who knows. "



I am both a British and Cypriot Citizen. Neither preculdes the other. I am both British and Cypriot in law and in 'heritage'.



"But it is it not written in the constitution that a Cypriot Citizen (ie id card holder) can not be extradited from Cyprus?"



I am not 100% sure re Cyprus but many countries refused to extradite their own citizens. This is not uncommon.



"Id also like to add that many Cypriots view Turkish mainlanders as different. Legally they may be the same however in reality they are not. "



Indeed many Cypriots do hold this prejudice but for me the fact that many others hold prejudice views does not mean I should hold them or am right to do so. Legaly all citizens are equal as such and in reality this SHOULD be the case and I for one challenge those that suggest otherwise.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 17:37

Erolz: "Just as, as a Cypriot I am embarassed and ashamed at all the know murderers and criminals that were MP's and minsters in the RoC government thorough the 60s 70s 80s and into the 90s, who never had to worry about amnesty or international warrants because no effort was ever taken to hold to account for their actions or ever will be. Just as I am embrassed at the RoC supporting and harbouring and supplying passports to known international terrorist like Abdullah Öcalan."



Point one, can you identify and of these known Greek Cypriot murderers and criminals so we can name and shame them? Just in the interests of balance, you understand. Because one of the worst ones, Nicos Sampson, was handed over by the ROC to the United Nations and was jailed for his crimes. Has the TRNC done the same?



Secondly, can you point to any serious evidence (Turkish press doesn't count) that Ocalan was supplied with an ROC passport?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:04

Macha msg 33



"Point one, can you identify and of these known Greek Cypriot murderers and criminals so we can name and shame them? Just in the interests of balance, you understand. Because one of the worst ones, Nicos Sampson, was handed over by the ROC to the United Nations and was jailed for his crimes. Has the TRNC done the same? "



More half truths and whole lies Macha. Nicos Sampson who boasted in a newspaper of having murdered more than 15 British policemen and civilians and was in 1957 sentanced to death byt the British but escaped under an amnesty in 1960. Throughout the 60's and into the 70's he was responsbile for the deaths of TC. In 1970 he was elected to parliament in the all GC run RoC. He was tried AFTER 1974 not for his murderous activites prior to that but for his part in the failed coup. Whilst he killed British service men and TC there was no chance of him facing prosecution for his crimes or block on him entering parliament



(cont)

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:09

It was ONLY when and after his involvment in killing GC and his part in the failed coup that the RoC considered he should face justice and a court of law. Sampson is not the only example of indivduals involved in murder and ordering murders and other illegal acts that sat in RoC parilaments and goverments without any fear of ever being called to account for such acts.



"Secondly, can you point to any serious evidence (Turkish press doesn't count) that Ocalan was supplied with an ROC passport?"



The evidence is the copies of the passport made availble after his capture. Of course the RoC denies any involvement but in the words of Mandy Rice Davies, well they would wouldnt they. Personally I do not doubt that the RoC did give aid and support to Ocalan under the philosophy of the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:14

Cheers, Erolz. So basically you have no evidence to stand up your claims - despite demanding it from others.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:28

"Cheers, Erolz. So basically you have no evidence to stand up your claims - despite demanding it from others. "



The evidence that Nicos Sampson a self confessed murderer was, until his participation in the 1974 coup in Cyprus, not only able to go about his business (which involved vicious attacks on TC citizens) without any fear of being held to account for his actions or prosecution AND enter the all GC run RoC parliament is undeniable.



The evidence that the RoC offered aid and support to the terrorist Abdullah Öcalan is not uncontrevertable. This no more means that the RoC did NOT offer such aid and support as it does they did. In some cases uncontrevertable evicence simply does not exist. One is left with making a personal best jusdgment on the partial evidence that is available. In my view I have little real doubt that the RoC did support and aid as covertly as possible PKK terrorist.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 18:42

Erolz



re msg 32.



It is not just a Cypriot problem though. Like it or not there is a lot of discrimination in the TRNC. Many ex-pats who choose to live there are overcharged or short changed on a daily basis. I am not suggesting for a minute that you personally adopt this practice, however we all know that the 3 tier pricing system exists.



Secondly if some someone emigrates to a country and gets citizenship that does not make them a native of that country. Mr Akin is not a native of Cyprus but a Turkish mainlander. If he has any say in a settlement do you think he will want to allow a certain number of Turkish mainlanders to be sent back? Turkeys do not vote for Christmas do they? (pardon the pun)



Thirdly, Abdullah Öcalan, did not run as an MP for the ROC did he? Mr Akin wants to be a politician and is and ex- politician such is the system in the TRNC he may end up being part of a government.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 19:29

Stubs msg 38



"Like it or not there is a lot of discrimination in the TRNC."



Indeed there is and I opposed it all.



"Secondly if some someone emigrates to a country and gets citizenship that does not make them a native of that country."



I never said he was a native Cypriot. I simply made the point that he was a Cypriot Citizen and as such should be afforded the same rights and obligations as any other Citizens without prejudice.



"If he has any say in a settlement do you think he will want to allow a certain number of Turkish mainlanders to be sent back?"



That is a big if. Even if he were to be elected in up comming elections his influence on asny settlement would be negliable. Let us not forget that a TRNC supposed dominated by 200,000 or more 'turkish settlers', if you beleive some of the more extreme propaganda, voted in FAVOUR of a solution that limited the number of Turkish mainlanders that recived citizenship to a list of 35,000



(cont)

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 19:34

a conundrum that those who insist that TC are outnumbered in the TRNC and have no say in their own futures in the face of Turkish settler numerical domination rarely address.



"Thirdly, Abdullah Öcalan, did not run as an MP for the ROC did he?"



No but the self confessed murderer Nicos Sampson DID run as an MP in the all GC run RoC AND was elected. There are many other examples of indivduals who had either prior convictions under British rule or who were undoubtedly directly involved in illegal activites up to and including murder and sanctioning murder who not only entered RoC parliament but served as minsiters as well.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 19:47

Erolz



Sampson ran a long time ago. Wounds at that time were still open and many still had nationalistic ideals then . In 2009 a guy who is a non Cypriot and has an arrest warrant out against him for murder is allowed to stand as an MP and furthermore may get a place on the government.



In this day and age it is fundamentally wrong that he should be allowed to stand at all.



I applaud your stance on how you view the citizenship situation in general and that citizens rights. Unfortunately human nature means that people are treated differently despite having a piece of paper which gives them citizenship.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 19:52

erolz



you are sooo way of thread, Akin murdered in 1996 nearly 20 years after the Turkish invasion, why bring Sampson etc into it...we are talking about a man who shot a gc in cold blood for simply climbling up a flag pole in his own country.



i must say i am pleased you don`t won`t that type of scumbag in office trying to help the tcs as they would be worse off than they already are...



Turkey has a lot to anwser for....

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 20:04

Juliet msg 42



The fact remains that the RoC parilament and government had indviduals in it through the 60s 70s 80s and well into the 90's that were driectly involved in illegal acts upto and including murder and santioning such killings. Certainly they have not been convicted of such things , just as Akin has not, for there has never been ANY effort on the part of the RoC to seek justice in these cases.



This reality in no way absolves Mr Akin of his alledged acts. It does however point out yet agin your glaring inconcistency and apparent hypocrasy. If mr Akin should be held to account for his alledged acts in 96, and I bleieve he shoul, then so should those that comitted murder and other illegal acts within the RoC in the 60's and 70's be held to account.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 20:09

Erolz



Did the Turkish authorities ever issue an international arrest warrant for any of the individuals from the ROC parliament?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 20:12

what do you think stubs? And why havn`t Turkey given this excuse for a man up to interpol!??

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 20:16

Stubs msg 44



"Did the Turkish authorities ever issue an international arrest warrant for any of the individuals from the ROC parliament? "



No because there was no legal process that allows them to do so. Their offenses were not comitted in Turkey but in a seperate sovreign state. It was and is the duty of the RoC government to seek to investigate and prosecute those that had comitted illegal acts within Cyprus. However the reality is that this has never happened and never will, partly because those that would come under such investigations have themselves been ministers within the RoC government and MP's within its parilament for so long.

canyavuz


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 363

Message Posted:
06/03/2009 20:17

If it were a Turkish cypriot pulling down a greek flag, the Greek would first of all shoot the Turk, then beat his corpse! The guy deserved everything he got.

Why cross the border when there are armed plice and soldiers? Foolish........if he used his brain, it wouldn't of happened.

Why couldn't he of just protested like the others.....but noo, he has to take it a step too far. GC's made Turks suffer in ways i cannot describe (personal experience from my family), and what happened to solomou was NOTHING compared to what has happened before

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 02:26

canyavuz,



What you say sums it up really. A horrible thing to happen. In the heat of the moment a man for what ever reason was attempting to degrade a national flag. Another man/men fired and killed him. One act in many that happened years ago.



Now being used as a football by people who are not even from the Island of Cyprus, just stirring up hatred.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 03:25

Some of the posts are disgraceful.



An innocent man who has been forced from his home in Cyprus has been killed in front of the media one of his relatives have been killed by what is regarded as "occupational forces" . The person accused of this runs free. How can anyone say that this man deserved what happened to him? Tiggy shame on you!!!!!



Canyavuz



2 or 3 or multidude or wrongs will never make a right.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 04:45

Mr Solomou most certainly did not deserve to be shot, but neither was he entirely innocent either. He actively sought to provoke. Being shot was totaly and unacceptably disproportionate to his provokation but he was not innocent. Not innocent in the sense that my uncle was totaly innocent. Who did NOTHING to provoke or incite a response but merely went to work to try and support his family, and was taken in broad daylight by illegal armed men , murdered and dumped down a well. Armed men set up and organised and run from and by the Interior Mininster, who went on to serve as a minister in the RoC goverment for many more years after this well into the 70's. Right up till the time he started to plot against Makarios, after which he was 'disapeared'. No media outcry, no youtube videos, no arrest warrants international or otherwise, no investigation then or since even though the killers were seen and known and not even an offical appology.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 04:47

So forgive me if I seem overly sensitive to the description of Mr Solomou as 'innocent' but there is innocent like my uncle and then there is the 'innocent' you use in refereance to Mr Solomou and to me (and I suspect all those on both sides that lost truly innocent loved ones) these are not the same thing.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 10:42

Stubs,



Even in jest please do not post: "How can anyone say that this man deserved what happened to him? Tiggy shame on you!!!!!"



I have never indicated that what so ever. A half oiled ! propaganda machine for The ROC is at work on this forum and most seem to be british subjects spouting off .



Msg 50,51 are from someone who knows how it really feels and not by people who are sad enough to be stuck on a forum all day.



Lovely morning in London.....off out to enjoy life.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 14:43

canyavus: "If it were a Turkish cypriot pulling down a greek flag, the Greek would first of all shoot the Turk, then beat his corpse! The guy deserved everything he got."



A despicable comment which would perhaps lead some to argue you deserve the same treatment.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 15:50

our experience are that its ok to fly a turkish flag, but the trnc have no respect for other countries flags, not even one of a guarrentor country.



i think in war lots of shit happens, whether or not the people who commit war crimes are ever brought to justice is down to the local authorities to give them up.



there are good and bad on both sides, but those who are suspected of these crimes should be rounded up and tried in a courtroom.



another thought is that if this guy were to get into goverment then what would that do for recognition of the trnc and the credibility of this country?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
07/03/2009 23:03

I wonder how they'd feel about a Rainbow flag. After all, every Turkish army base should fly one, really.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 01:10

Tiggy



I do apologise my last post. It was meant towards canvayuz and not you

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 01:15

Erolz



I am sure there is not a Cypriot family who has not been affected in one shape or another.



As i have stated earlier a multitude of wrongs do not make a right.



Whoever shot at Solomou made a blunder really. It was done in front of cameras in front of watching media so naturally attracted a lot of attention.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 02:09

Stubs msg 57



You seemed to have missed my point. Mr Solomou was not 'innocent' - not in the same way that so many other murdered Cypriots were truely and totally innocent. I took exception to this discription of him as an innocent man.



You can state that a multitude of wrongs do not make a right as many times as you like. I know this. I accept this. I have always known and accepted this before you repeatedly saying it here and will continue to do so if you continue to say so in posts or not. In no way was my objection to your description of Solomou as an 'innocent' man saying or implying that 2 wrongs make a right so I do not know why you have said this yet again. My problem was with your inaccurate desciption of him as innocent.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 03:01

If he is not innocent are you saying that he is guilty?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 03:42

Stubs msg 59



"If he is not innocent are you saying that he is guilty?"



He was guilty of entering an area he should not have been in and of actively trying to provoke a reaction. Had he chose not to do these things he would not be dead. These facts do not justify what happened to him and as I have clearly said already he did not deserve to be shot and the reaction to his provocation was totaly and unacceptably disproportionate. It is simply not accurate in my opinion to portray him simply as an 'innocent victim'.



Now tell me Stubs do you REALLY believe that he was an innocent victim in the SAME way and sense as those Cypriots, Greek and Turkish, who were murdered and did NOTHING to provoke or encite, other than to be of the 'wrong' ethnic group and in the wrong place at the wrong time ?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 09:54

The only thing he was guilty of is staring day in and day out at the Turkish occupation forces in his country... 20 years after the occupation a man being killed in cold blood in front of tv cameras just proved to the world how barbaric these so called 'red wolves' are.



as has been stated good & bad on both sides in any invasion, BUT after 20 yrs an innocent man should not have been killed but arrested.



erolz



what would your reaction have been if someone occupied your street in the UK & you could see your home everyday but you were not allowed by the invaders to enter wouldnt you be p****d of ?

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 12:42

Slightly I suppose ,Juliet.



msg 53. Any chance of you climbing a flag pole...........BANG! more like a dance pole.



Stubs, all forgiven.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 12:54

Erolz: "Whoever shot at Solomou made a blunder really. It was done in front of cameras in front of watching media so naturally attracted a lot of attention."



So it was a "blunder" to shoot at an unarmed civilian, was it? Most decent people would have described it as a murderous act, but not you. Your inference is that is was a blunder to do it in from of the world's media.



And indeed the world saw that day the kind of murderous scum who are controlling the north of Cyprus and protecting their own government-sanctioned killers. Any professional serviceman or woman knows the rules of engagement, referred to as the "yellow card" system in the UK military.



Lethal force should never be used against unarmed civilians who pose no real threat. The Turkish forces showed themselves to be a barbarian, undiciplined rabble who barely belong in the civilised world and brought shame on their precious, blood-red flag.

ataturk


Joined: 09/09/2008
Posts: 712

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 13:29

If I was there I would have shot him as well if he tried to take our flag down. I dont think the british are qualified to even talk about the matter as they are responsible for the troubles in Cyprus. If the brits could keep their noses out of other countries business everyone would be better off.



Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran , Sri Lanka, Cyprus, Gibraltar, Ireland just to mention a few.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 13:32

ataturk,



Read your post again and ask yourself if you qualify as a decent human being. I think not.

ataturk


Joined: 09/09/2008
Posts: 712

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 13:44

The Brits are a fine lot to talk ask yourself the same question Macha

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 13:46

But we're not talking about the Brits, ataturk.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 13:57

the same old tc attitude'it wasn't me!'

it never bloody is, is it.

the brits gave cyprus independence and the cypriots messed it up, so now instead of taking resposibility its easier to blame others.

so since 1974 its the brit who have stopped the unification of cyprus?

i think not!

ataturk


Joined: 09/09/2008
Posts: 712

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 14:16

Look back at history it is surprising that whenever the brits give back independence the country goes to pot. What would of happened if the british kept their noses out it in the first place. I dont think the outcome would be the same.



Thank you for Britain giving us independence in the 1960s but I would have been happier if they never got involved in the first place. They have alot to answer for.



Macha why dont you want to talk about the brits.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 14:30

ataturk,



Because this thread is not about the Brit forces, who are in a different league from the Turks.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 16:11

Macha msg 63



Weather by error or intent the quote you attribute to me was not made by me. It was made by stubs.



Juliet msg 61



"The only thing he was guilty of.."



You yourself know this is not true as you then say



"...should not have been killed but arrested"



I agree he should not have been killed but he did take actions that warranted arrest and therefore he was not simply an 'innocent man'.



"wouldnt you be p****d of ?"



The difference between us Juliet is I understand and accept the wrongs done to GC post 74. As I understand and accept the wrongs done to TC pre 74. I seek a soloution to these things that addresses all these wrongs in as fair and balanced a manner as possible. You simply want all wrongs done to GC to be rectified and dismiss ignore or write off those done to TC. There can be no way forward with an approach like this.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 16:24

Macha msg 63



"Any professional serviceman or woman knows the rules of engagement, referred to as the "yellow card" system in the UK military."



Try telling that to the family of Jean Charles de Menezes Macha , a truely 'innocent civilian' shot dead by British police.



In this case a mentality of being under siege and attack combined with a chaotic situation, bad information and confusion contributed to this event.



We do not know what happened re Solomou in terms of who shot, who gave orders, under what conditions of confusion or chaos or otherwise. Still such does not stop you from using this event as an opportunity to label the government of the TRNC as "muderous scum" and Turkish forces as "barbarian, undiciplined rabble who barely belong in the civilised world".



It is my view Macha you care nothing of Solomou and his family but simply use this event as another opportunity to push your agenda of attacking TRNC, TC and Turkey.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 16:54

jean charles de menezes was an illegal immigrant in the uk, who had over stayed his visa.

i know he didn't deserve to die but if he had gone home when he should have it would never of happened.

it was the trigger happy police and not the military who killed him.

i don't think you can compare him with solomou.

seriously de meeze was suspected as a suicide bomb the other guy just climbed a flag pole.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 17:08

Erolz



The main difference is that this man was killed in front of the media. Another victim of what has happened in Cyprus.



The main point being of course that the peson accused of shooting him has an international arrest warrant against him and also is running as an MP and may yet be part of a government.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 17:10

fire starter msg 73



"but if he had gone home when he should have it would never of happened. "



And if Mr Solomou had decided not to illegaly enter the area he did and seek to provoke and encite what happened to him would never have happened.



"it was the trigger happy police and not the military who killed him."



and you know who shot solomou ? Police, Military or goverment minsiter ?



"seriously de meeze was suspected as a suicide bomb the other guy just climbed a flag pole. "



He was WRONGLY suspected of being a susicde bomber and had NO connection to terrorism what so ever. The point is one could easily use this event, if one had such an agenda, to label the British Government 'murdering scum' and Briths Police as 'barbarian, undiciplined rabble who barely belong in the civilised world'. Doing so however in my opinion would not be a balanced view.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 17:10

Attaturk re msg 64



The TRNC is a self proclaimed state.



Turkish Cypriots and Turks are 2 different races.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 18:43

quite right stubs!

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 19:00

Stubs



Will you be answering my question in msg 60 re if you think that Mr Solomou was an 'innocent victim' in the same sense that my uncle was an 'innocent victicm' (or any of the many other Cypriots Turkish And Greek that were murdered and did NOTHING to invite or provoke other than being of the wrong ethnic group at the wrong time and place) ?

ataturk


Joined: 09/09/2008
Posts: 712

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 19:12

The Turks and Turkish Cypriots may not be according to you the same race but they came and saved us from the greeks before they ethnically cleansed us. I am first a turk then a cypriot.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 19:15

well said ataturk ,

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 21:28

msg 79



but this is Cyprus for Cypriots, not Greece or Turkey.... maybe you rethink your location...

ataturk


Joined: 09/09/2008
Posts: 712

Message Posted:
08/03/2009 21:35

I for one do not think that Cyprus is for Cypriots this is just a ploy to fool the Turkish cypriots into thinking that the greeks will live in harmony if the turkish mainlanders are forced to leave. This is not going to happen the turks be it cypriots or mainlanders are hear to stay. If the greek cypriots want Cyprus to be for the Cypriots then the first flag you see flying when you cross over at ledra palce shouldnt be the flag of Greece. I will proudly fly the turkish flag and the turkish cypriot flag whether it is recognised or not.



The greek propaganda machine is not working where I come from.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 00:27

Erolz



As I have said earlier that most ordinary Cypriots have suffered in some way or another at the hands of governments or armed men.



What happened to your uncles is a sad no doubt. If the person who is responsible for that can be named and brought to justice then they should be.



Solomou's case is slightly different in the fact that it was done in front of the media and there is a person alledged directly involved at firing shots at him.



Mr Solomou has provoked something from the watching Turkish/Turkish Cypriots with his actions there is no doubt about that. Does that make him any more innocent or guilty than others who experienced what your uncle has? There is a lot of Cypriots Turkish and Greek who have suffered at the hands of the other side.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 00:34

Ataturk



Most Turkish Cypriots I know view themselves as Turkish Cypriots not Turks.



The last time i crossed at Ledra Palace the first flag you see at customs is the Cyprus flag. Further up the road there is a smaller Greek flag beside a smaller Cyprus flag.



I will add though that going around the south particular in Nicosia the amount of Greek flags is disgraceful. In the past I have discussed that with some GC's and on some south based forums.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 00:42

Stubs msg 83



"If the person who is responsible for that can be named and brought to justice then they should be."



The illegal armed ethnic gang that abducted my uncled killed him and dumped his body in a well were known and seen by many abducting him at the time. THey walked into BArclays Bank and took him away. They knew that they had no reason to fear investigation and prosecution for their acts because they were being run FROM the Interior Ministry BY the Interior Minister in an all GC run RoC government. This same goverment has since passed an amnesty on all such offenders, without ever investigating them. The point is that the same people who demand justice For the killing of Solmou did not and WILL NOT EVER offer it those it was directly involved in.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 00:45

"Does that make him any more innocent or guilty than others who experienced what your uncle has?"



That is the question I keep asking you ever since you chose to describe my Solomou as an innocent (victim). My view is clear and I have already expressed it. In no way was Mr Solmou an 'innocent victim' in the same sense or meaning of the word innocent as those TC and GC who were murdered simply for belonging to the wrong ethnic and being in the wrong place (his place of work in the case of my uncle) at the wrong time (a time when the international community was willing to ignore such acts in Cyprus) and who did NOTHING to encite or provoke.



I STILL await your view.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 01:00

Msg 65 You have the cheek to make that statement. Being the sad lonely little attention seeker that you are. posting under the same names as macha (turds) and juilet. You must be tormented.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 08:03

msg 86



http:famagusta-gazette.com



Atrocities on both sides as you can see in the headline " cypriot family buried after 34yrs" & Turkey still breaking the rules......

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 08:16

Truely 'innocent victims' in my opinion. My sypathies for what they are worth go out to the family and I sincerely hope the return of their remains can help bring some closure for them, as it did my family.



A shame the neither Juliet or the minster that said



"He added that the humanitarian issue of missing persons in Cyprus is separate from the political question."



could not resist the urge to politicise this families tradegy and use it to attack Turkey. For the record these remains were recovered from a site in Northern Cyprus with the full co operation of the TRNC authorites - whihc some would have us believe are controlled entirely by Turkey.



It is my firm belief that what Cyprus needs is a Truth and Reconcilliation process, where testimony is traded for immunity from prosecution. The work on missing persons is a start but more needs to be done. This could (and should) imo include the events surrounding Mr Solmou death.

ataturk


Joined: 09/09/2008
Posts: 712

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 10:00

Please dont make me laugh with this missing person propaganda machine. The missing persons are dead there was a war and they were killed end of. The turks have missing persons as well whos going on about this.



If the greeks are not interested in Enosis then take the greek flags down. If they are serious about a solution (which I doubt) then this would be a start. I for one will proudly fly my flags because Turkey is here to stay they are our guarantor power safeguarding our future and our childrens future.



Invasion, occupation or intervention call it what you like. The truth is a handful of greeks may want to live peacefully but the rest want Cyprus for themselves without the turks.



If you look back in history the greeks have never ever ruled Cyprus. They have no automatic rights to the island. We are here they are here, we have just as much rights as they have. As far as I am concerned compensation for property loss is the only way and then division.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 11:28

Ataturk



Im sorry but I think you are being very narrow minded with regards the missing person issue.



Many Cypriots both Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot have suffered, to put it down to war is nothing short of disgraceful. Try telling that to ordinary TC's and GC's who have had family members go missing and still do not know their wherabouts.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 11:41

Erolz



i think both the missing person issue and what happened to Solomou are different issues and not really fair comparisons.



With regards the missing person issue I think it is fair to say that most families would be happy to get the remains so that they could have some closure. Would they want to see criminal charges brought against those responsible for their deaths?



Mr Solomou was murdered in front of watching member of the media, his family have already buried him. Closure for this family might very well be a court case against the person accused of killing their relation.



As i said earlier it is difficult to compare both situations.



It is also fair to say that certain members of the GC society are always up for some "Turk Bashing" however in recent times it is not were as near bad as it once was.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 11:50

Stubs msg 92



"Would they want to see criminal charges brought against those responsible for their deaths?"



What they would like in my view is some offical aknowledgment of what happened to their loved ones and some truth about the events surrounding it. Solmous family know what happend, if not the who, and his death is not 'burried and hidden' and as you say neither was his body.



"Mr Solomou was murdered in front of watching member of the media,"



I really fail to see what the difference is in terms of doing what is right and justice depending on if the media saw the event or not.



"Closure for this family might very well be a court case against the person accused of killing their relation."



My view is that this tradgic killing was part and parcel of the ongoing Cyprus problem. I do not see the 'equity' in singling out one murder over others, just because one was recorded by media or happend later in time.



cont

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 11:53

In my view we must either seek justice and the same justice for all case or none.



"It is also fair to say that certain members of the GC society are always up for some "Turk Bashing" however in recent times it is not were as near bad as it once was. "



And how much of this 'progress' is a result of the physical seperation of the two communites in your view.



Finally you STILL have not answered my question about the use and meaning of the word innocent in terms of Solomou. Do you think he was an innocent victim in the same way that the people in this latest report that Juliet provided were innocent victims ?

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 11:58

msg 90. I would say that family's would like closure on what happened to loved ones, but I can not see too many being located now.



the rest of what ataturk is saying is the only way forward.



I would say stubs you seem to be a decent person unlike the other two sad things. Only you are beginning to sound like a stuck record now. Debate is fine....but on this subject it is a merry go round. You will not change any opinions.



You state:-

It is also fair to say that certain members of the GC society are always up for some "Turk Bashing" however in recent times it is not were as near bad as it once was.



So the TC's are exempt from this type of behaviour then??? Simle typing error ?

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 12:36

Erolz,



I misquoted Stubs, but since he belongs to the "hand Akin over" camp you probably realise my post was aimed at you.



The Menenez case is different in that he was shot by police not military. And in any case I think officers should have been charged over the killing.



Re Solomou, you state: "He was guilty of entering an area he should not have been in and of actively trying to provoke a reaction. Had he chose not to do these things he would not be dead."



A person is only "guilty" if he has been found guilty as charged in a court of law. This man was murdered in cold blood by people who - like you - clearly thought they were judge, jury and executioner (OK, you didn't pull the trigge,r but you are partially justifying the killing).

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 12:42

Ataturk: "I am first a turk then a cypriot."



Which on the face of it and combined with your other posts, makes you something of an enemy of Cyprus and the Turkish Cypriots.



I'll take a wild guess and say you are yet another Londrali who has spent most, if not all, of his life in the UK and is not a native Turkish Cypriot.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 12:47

ataturk: "If the greeks are not interested in Enosis then take the greek flags down."



If you think there is any support for Enosis in the south it confirms my suspicions you are not a Cypriot and know very little of what is really going on in Cyprus.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 12:51

Macha msg 96



"I misquoted Stubs, but since he belongs to the "hand Akin over" camp you probably realise my post was aimed at you."



You post was aimed at me ?? You accused 'me' in that post (63) of



"Most decent people would have described it as a murderous act,"



I have described exactly as this numerous times in this very thread !



and



"Your inference is that is was a blunder to do it in from of the world's media."



I NEVER made such an inference. In fact I have already questioned what difference this makes ?



Really Macha when you can so blantantly 'aim a post at me', when it is based on a quote I never made and condems me for things I have never said, can there be any doubt as to your inabilty to be impartial ? It would be embarassing for anyone but as 'proefessional' journalist you should be ashamed.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 12:58

Macha msg 96



"The Menenez case is different in that he was shot by police not military."



Akin was not in the Military. So did he shoot him or not? The fact is we do not know who shot him.



"A person is only "guilty" if he has been found guilty as charged in a court of law."



Are you SERIOUS ?? In Msg 3 of this thread you call Akin "Dirty murdering b******" then you lecture me on guilt only applying if someone has been found guilty in a court of law ! For petes sake Macha get a grip.



For your benefit the thread went like this.



Stubs - Solomou was an inncocent (victim)



Me - Was he innocent in the way my uncle or the GC in Juliets report were innocent.



Stubs - if he was not innocent then are you (me) saying that he was guilty.



Me - he was guilty of entering a restricted zone and actively seeking to encite and provoke a response . In my view not innocent in the same way as those killed simply because they were GC or TC.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 13:11

Macha msg 96



"This man was murdered in cold blood by people who - like you - clearly thought they were judge, jury and executioner (OK, you didn't pull the trigge,r but you are partially justifying the killing). "



Your accusation is I partialy justified the killing. What I have ACTUALLY said rather than your accusation.



Msg 28

As a Cypriot I would be ashamed and embarassed if this man [Akin] was to be elected to parliament again.



In my view Akin should be held to account for his actions on that day by a court of law



Msg 50

Mr Solomou most certainly did not deserve to be shot,

Being shot was totaly and unacceptably disproportionate to his provokation



NO WHERE have I justified the killing of Mr Solomou or implied it. I ojected to the description of him as an 'innocent victim' in comparrsion to TC AND GC that were killed for no act on their part to provoke and encite but simply for being TC or GC.



cont

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 13:15

When you can take a thread like this where what I have said is plain and there in black and white and twist that so totally that you accuse me of things that not only I have not said but where I have even said the exact opposite is it any wonder that I (and I supsect others too) have little or no respect for your posts here, or for that matter you morals ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 13:32

Macha if, as some here have alledged, your are being paid to run a propaganda campaign I suggest you refund their money immediately.



Personally I do not believe your are in anyone's pay for I can not believe that anyone would be stupid to pay for such incompetance as you have shown here.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 13:42

Tiggy



"Turk bashing" and Turkish Cypriot bashing are not the same thing.



Many GC's still view Turks as invaders and occupiers. After 34 years it is fair to see why it is viewed as an occupation and not an intervention. Under the treaty the guarantor nations were allowed to intervent to re-establish the constitution.



Tiggy I am not looking to change opinions. I was disgusted at the nature of some of the posts on here from people who justified what happened to solomou and on another thread some said they were happy there. Unfortunately the person accused is allowed to run for MP, evading arrest warrants and may have a say in a government.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 13:43

Erolz



I have answered your question several times.



Erolz if Solomou was TC do you think he would have been shot?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 14:51

Stubs msg 105



"I have answered your question several times."



If you have then in all honesty I have nopt understood it. Either you think that Mr Solomou was an innocent victim in the same sense and meaing of the word innocent as those that did nothing to incite or provoke a reaction who were also murdered or you do not? I am still unsure which is your position ?



"Erolz if Solomou was TC do you think he would have been shot? "



I am sorry but what are you asking me? If Solomou was a TC and involved in a TC demostration that involved forcing his way accross the buffer zone into the RoC ? In a senario where the TC outnumbered the RoC numerically ? I am sorry but this question can not be sensibly answered in this form imo.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 15:56

The question was quite simple Erolz



If Solomou had been a TC how do you think the TC/Turkish authorities would have dealt with it?



What I have said previously is that it is not a fair comparison. There have been many victims of what has happened in Cyprus and this is just another one. The circumstances behind the incidents are different.

ataturk


Joined: 09/09/2008
Posts: 712

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 19:29

Why would I be the enemy of the turkish cypriots Macha I am first turkish and then a cypriot, how does this imply that I am an enemy of the turkish cypriots.



I have spent many years in Cyprus and live here full time, I have been on many rallies and marches both here and in the UK with regards to the Cyprus situation. I have a very good understanding about the Cyprus situation and unlike my local cypriots can see through all the propaganda that the greeks are using to persuade the turkish cypriots to agree to a solution on their terms.



That is why anyone who is does not agree with your viewpoint is immediately frowned upon. I am an active member of the Grey Wolves both here and in the UK. We are working towards division as we know full well we cannot live with the greeks. If we could it would have happened years ago before all the massacres in the 60s. I have lost many members of my family but we do not label them missing persons they were simply murdered in the war.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 19:39

ataturk,



I respect you for admitting you belong to a fascist organisation, namely the Grey Wolves blamed for involvement in the murders of the three Greek Cypriots at Derhinia. For that reason alone you are by definition an enemy of Cyprus and all Cypriots.



Were you present at the scene of the killings, or were you still at school in North London at the time?

ataturk


Joined: 09/09/2008
Posts: 712

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 19:43

How many of your greek friends would be so honest Macha. For the record where are you from and where do you live

berkeh2001


Joined: 28/02/2009
Posts: 455

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 20:29

i am not joining this debate because its to deep to get involved my whole family elders done minimum 5 to 15 years of national service . and ataturk is a turkish cypriot i ca n second that and wven if you are a turkish londoner you are aturkish cypriot and every turk is born to be a turkish soldier. take care

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 20:32

Forgive me if I don't reveal such information to a self-proclaimed member of the Grey Wolves.



They've already murdered Turkish citizens and Greek Cypriots and shot the Pope among others. And how many journalists have they killed?



Most decent people unite when faced with members of terrorist organisations and I'd be interested to see what the members of this esteemed forum react to your presence.



http://www.armed-groups.org/6/section.aspx/ViewGroup?id=13

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 20:37

msg 112 for ataturk

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 21:05

msg 109. What a load of crap you spout. Who gives you the right to say who is an enemy of any state. You are seen on this forum as an embarrsassment to the british people. Also in the minds of many as a enemy of of Cyprus. You do more to promote the cause of keeping the Island divided.....keep it up!



No chance I suppose of answering the question of msg 110.......All you can do is hide behind your PC.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 21:07

Sorry all, this one may read better!:-



msg 109. What a load of crap you spout. Who gives you the right to say who is an enemy of any state? You are seen on this forum as an embarrassment to the British people. Also in the minds of many as an enemy of Cyprus. You do more to promote the cause of keeping the Island divided.....keep it up!



No chance I suppose of answering the question of msg 110.......All you can do is hide behind your PC.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 21:31

msg 112



quite a BIG worry don`t you think......?

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 21:39

Hello Juliet



How are you ?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 21:42

hello back tiggy, fine thx, you?



now i am worried

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 21:48

Glad to hear you are ok, you have no reason to be worried.



Have you had a nice day ?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 21:52

bit off thread tiggy!!! why don`t you start a new thread ie, " lets be nice"...or is it the local vino talking?

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 22:01

I was just making polite conversation whilst you were putting macha to bed for the night and getting in to your juliet garb. Do you find it hard to get size 12 shoes in Cyprus ?



I do not drink that often to be honest and certainly not at the moment.



Look forward t o further chats.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 22:11

Tiggy



Have you done some research on what the grey wolves stand for?



Here is an extract from wikipedia



"In 1996 the Grey Wolves were brought in great numbers to resist a peaceful protest against the occupation of Cyprus by Greek Cypriot members of the Cypriot Motorcycle association. As a result, the violent beating perpetuated by members of the group Tasos Isaac was brutally murdered."



As you are an active member of the organisation Ataturk, would you like to share your knowledge of the incident above and also what happened with Solomou?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 22:15

tiggy dear why on earth would i be putting Macha to bed.... we live miles apart.. as for your shoe question, i`m sure a shoe maker would make up your size 12s for you.



good night tiggy i will let you go get your beauty, i`m sure tomorrow you will be really busy...

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 22:35

The article Pikey highlights states .....



Relationship with the international community

This armed group is not currently listed as a terrorist organization either by the U.S. Department of State or the European Union.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 23:27

Size 9 for me..... you little tinker! Good night....I wish...Im on night working this week.



Stubs, research.....Give it a rest! I heard that a couple of menbers from the "tiddly winks assc" were also battered by the cubs.

read msg 124.....I think that answers your question.



You need to get out a little more.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 23:28

Stubs msg 107



"If Solomou had been a TC how do you think the TC/Turkish authorities would have dealt with it?"



You mean if he had been a TC that forced his way into the buffer zone during a GC protest , 2 days after a similar GC protest at a time of great hightend tension and admid confusion and chaos and tried to climb a falg pole to pull down the Turkish flag ? If that is what you are asking the question makes little sense to me. However even imagining this totaly bizzare idea I do not think it is beyond the realms of possiblity that he would have been shot.



"What I have said previously is that it is not a fair comparison."



Again I am confused by this statement. To me it is clearly the case that the degree to which a victim (and yes he WAS a victim) can be said to be innocent is the degree to which by his own actions he contributed to what subsequetly happend and conversly how much he could have by his own actions avoided his fate.



(cont)

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 23:32

"In the last decade, alleged involvement of the Grey Wolves has also been reported in armed attacks against journalists located in Turkey and northern Cyprus, as well as in an armed campaign against several political parties in northern Cyprus. For instance, the International Press Institute (IPI) denounced the attack of a Turkish Cypriot journalist, Murat Kanatli, by a group of 20 to 30 members of the Grey Wolves in Lefkose (Nicosia, Cyprus) on 17 October 2003.



In addition, the Grey Wolves are suspected of having conducted an armed campaign in northern Cyprus during March-April 2004 “aimed at stopping an overwhelming vote by Turkish Cypriots at the April 24, 2004, referendum to agree to the so-called revised ‘Annan Plan’ for the reunification of Cyprus.” In particular, it is reported that by 20 April 2004, members of the Grey Wolves had attacked the headquarters of several political groups in favour of approving the referendum."



Enemies of democracy and the Turkish Cypriots...

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 23:34

If you take a more extreme example (to highlight the point) a burgalar who is shot dead whilst breaking into someons house is not an innocent victim in the same way as someone shot a radnom in the street going about their daily lawful business. The killing of such a burgalar is NOT JUSTIFED by their acts, but the degree to which they they can be legitimately cosidered an innocent victim IS defined by how much their own acts led to the subsequent events and to what degree they could have avoided these subsequent events by not doing something.



now PLEASE do NOT misunderstand me here or the point of this example. I am NOT saying that Solomou was a burgalar. I am not saying that because he was not entirely innocent in creation of a situtaion that led to his death such a killing is justifed. What I AM saying is that what defines innocence and degree of it is NOT 'how similar two events are' but to what degree the victim had created the conditions that led to the subsequent events



con

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 23:38

and to what degree by not doing something he could have avoided his fate. Comparative innocence is NOT about how 'similar' one case is to another but about how much the VICTIM controlled his own destiny that led to the subsequent events. If you become a victim and NOTHING you either did or did not do could change what happend to you , you are in my book at least by definition an innocent vitim. If however you become a victim because of SOMETHING you did and by not doing this thing you would not be a victim (and again be clear I am nto saying this JUSTIFIES his murder - it does not) then you are not an entirelyu innocent victim.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 23:46

Stubs msg 122



"In 1996 the Grey Wolves were brought in great numbers to resist a peaceful protest..."



And here we see the dangers of wikipedia as a source on issue like these. The protest by the GC was NOT peaceful. It is not ME saying this but this is the conclusion of the ECHR. The GC according to these judgments FORCED their way past UN Peacekeepers with a legal mandate to prevent such things, ignored repeated request by said UN forces for them to return to their side of the cease fire line and in doing so greatly increased bi communal tensions.



If you really want I can go and spend yet more time digging out the exact ECHR rulings but then why should I be the only doing all the actual 'work'



Innocent victim, peacful demostration - these are all in my opinion pejorative terms that do not reflect the entire reality of the situation. If we are to make serious judgments then lets do so in an informed manner.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 23:49

Macha msg 127



Given that your are unable to even correctly quote who said what in this very thread and then use a quote made not by me to accuse me over things I never even said even AFTER I pointed out your error, could you be so kind as to provide the 'sources' for your quotes or assertions in msg 127.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 23:51

Tiggy



the grey wolves are not members of any tiddly winks association. If you cared to do some research into them you will find that out.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 23:51

The one I already quoted, m8.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 23:53

Above msg to erolz

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
09/03/2009 23:59

Erolz



Msgs 126, 128 & 129



I am in no way saying that Mr Solomou's actions did not contribute to his death. If he didnt climb the pole then he could still be alive.



What i have said is that it is not something which can be compared to other things which have happened in particular with your uncle. The situation and circumstances surounding them are different. A bit like comparing apples and pears.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/03/2009

yes I found it myself as well shortly after asking and have now seen your original link as well - applogies for missing that. Good credible source btw.



Still does not change the fact that you attibuted to me in this thread things said by another person , attacked those things not said by me and when I pointed it out said that they ap[plied to me anyway , even though I did not say them and have not said them here or elsewhere



Still good solid credible source re the Grey Wolves as an orginsation in general.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 00:04

Erolz



There are loads of website which I could quote regards the grey wolves. Furthermore was it quoted somewhere that Akin was a member of them?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 00:08

Stubs msg 187



"I am in no way saying that Mr Solomou's actions did not contribute to his death. If he didnt climb the pole then he could still be alive. "



But this fact has no relation at all to how innocent a victim he can fairly and accurately be said to have been ? It seems to me we have very differnt ideas on what 'innocent' actually means if that is the case. To me innocence is pretty much defined by how much ones own actions contibuted to an event. For you I guess it means something different ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 00:12

Stubs msg 137



"Furthermore was it quoted somewhere that Akin was a member of them?"



I do not know, was it ? I do not recall seeing this but if it is the case then please do point out where and by whom this 'may' have been said.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 01:21

Stubs,



Our survey showed Tiggy wrote : Stubs, research.....Give it a rest! I heard that a couple of menbers from the "tiddly winks assc" were also battered by the cubs.



Our survey showed Stubs wrote: Tiggy, the grey wolves are not members of any tiddly winks association. If you cared to do some research into them you will find that out.



Findings show: Stubs did not read the message properly as he was not saying the TW assc were members of the GW's (he was attempting a little wit) read it again.



Conclussion: Tiggy does not care to do any research in to Grey wolves, Brown bears or anything else linked to this silly thread. I have a nice life and it is too short for all this crap.

ataturk


Joined: 09/09/2008
Posts: 712

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 07:46

If someone tries to take down our flag and everything it stands for they have to be prepared for the consequences. Obviously Solomou who by the way was smoking a joint when he went up to his death was not aware how patriotic the turkish soldiers were who shot him. Let that be a lesson to the greeks for the future.



If there is going to be any solution the turks must be recognised on an equal basis. The Annan plan being vetoed by the greeks was a clear sign that they do not accept us as equals.



Until that day comes we stay as we are.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 08:14

msg141



what a load of dung.................

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 13:00

so now this guy climbing a flag pole was stoned?

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 13:22

Juliet,



Are you referring to your mate Macha? Had a fall out have we?



You can be my friend if ya like’s



T.