Why is it ???????? can anyone anwser???

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 08:10

Why is it that most expats on this forum are so engrossed in the north of Cyprus becomimg part of Turkey ? surely before you came to the island to buy your holiday homes, retirement homes etc, you were sold properties that came under the heading of CYPRUS!!! if it`s the turkish culture you had wanted then why not buy in Turkey???And why?? buy in an unrecognised state, & why??? disrespect the original tcs who want to belong to cyprus as a whole again by pushing them towards leaving the island as they are being outnumbered by people from mainland turkey who they don`t get on with.



This island belongs to ALL Cypriots & has nothing to do with Turkey or Greece, the Cypriot people have there own culture which with your negative comments about the north of Cyprus you are slowly pushing the original tcs away from getting there identitys back & being able to move forward.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 08:18

Dear "Juliet" re msg 1



I don't think most ex-pats ARE hoping that "TRNC" becomes part of Turkey - they just hope for an equitable settlement that would allow them to keep "their" homes and some "sanity" re the rules re living / working .





Wouldn't it be just GREAT if Turkey and all of CY were in the EU, and the next generation could look forward to living / working where they like within the EU?!



*I* have to wonder what folk fear about that...?

Anthony


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 87

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 08:24

Juliet



I have never met an expat who wants that.



Indeed an expat would hardly be interested. An expat is someone who is temporarily living abroad and intends to return to their home country. Those who intend to live permanently abroad are not expats. That is the true meaning of the word.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 08:41

As someone who lived for the first 50+ years of life in England, we made a choice to come and live in TRNC permanently. Even my will states to be buried in Lapta Cemetary.



We are not interested in being part of Greece, Turkey or the EU and nobody that we know wants anything other than a minimum exclusion of the first 2.



Mark has it spot on in his first para, other than a small minority, everyone wants an end to the divided island problem with most having an opinion of what the solution may be.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 12:13

msg4



thankyou david, but there are some of this forum who are here for other reasons & i want to know why they refer all the time to the mainland turkish culture & not the cypriot one...plus anwsers to all the other questions..

Amber


Joined: 26/09/2008
Posts: 561

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 12:26

Ditto message 3 - I do not know any expats who want NC to be part of Turkey ???????

Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 12:33

Juliet,



Could you explain to me what Turkish Cypriot culture is, you know things like cuisine, the arts, music, theatre?

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 12:39

disrespect the original tcs who want to belong to cyprus as a whole again by pushing them towards leaving the island as they are being outnumbered by people from mainland turkey who they don`t get on with.

I have no idea who you have been speaking to Juliet to come to the above conclusion, I have never shown disrespect to TCs, the very fact that we have bought here shows that surely. I have both TC and Mainland Turks as my neighbours, everyone gets along well, we are polite and respectful to each other, how are we pushing them towards leaving the island ?

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 12:43

I want to know why they refer all the time to the mainland turkish culture & not the cypriot one.



Can you give me an example of that please so that I can try to give you an answer.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 13:32

Juliet



I can't see that 'Cypriot' per se independently exists anymore.



North Cyprus has:

Mostly Turkish Language.

Turkish placenames & roadsigns.

Turkish History.

Turkish, mostly Muslim Religion.

Turkish food names.

Turkish based Government, Infrastucture, politics.

History of Turkish military presence.

etc.



South Cyprus has:

Mostly Greek language.

Greek placenames & roadsigns.

Greek history.

Greek, mostly Greek Christian Orthodox religion.

Greek food names.

Greek based Government, Infrastructure, politics.

History of Greek military presence.

etc.



When did you last buy Greek or Cypriot 'Delight'?



It's always Turkish Delight!



The only thing I can see in common is that both sides drive on the left,.... dangerously!



NC Holidays come under 'Turkey'.

SC Holidays come under 'Greece'.



Norway & Sweden are joined physically but are seperate Countries, as is most of Europe and the rest of the world, should they all be 'amalgamated'?



Rob

Traveller0392


Joined: 21/03/2008
Posts: 186

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 13:48

..... History? 1572..... Ottoman.... prior to that Venitian.......prior to that....mmmm.....Lusignan.... they were French..... and prior to that Byzantine... kinda Roman's... but they spoke Greek.....



...... what was the question?

Traveller0392


Joined: 21/03/2008
Posts: 186

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 13:51

oh yes... the Brits... 1890... after the Crimean war... now depending which books you read...... the Brits.... were sort of looking after the place.... hence the decision to grant independence in 1960..... ... possibly 'cos they got fed up with being shot at....

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 13:52

dt... I hear where you are coming from but 35 years have passed and this is the reality as it is today. Is it realistic to think that things could go back to how they were in 1974 with all the water that has since passed under the bridge?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 13:55

RobnJoe



as has been stated before the invasion the majority of people on the north were gcs, living with tcs.. so why do you enjoy living with the Turks, as you say the north has now been turkified.. on the south the mosques are used for muslims, the road names are still in turkish & greek until recently the cyprus pound had 2 sides...



again why have you bought in Cyprus if you prefer the Turkish way of life.

Traveller0392


Joined: 21/03/2008
Posts: 186

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 13:55

.... but i don't think anyone here... that i speak to wants the island to be part of Turkey.....



...... Cypriot is Cyprus people.... whatever language.... ask a man from Belfast if he's Irish? ...... now there's a puzzle...

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 13:58

Dear Traveller0392, re msg 12



The "question" is how the indigenous ethnic populations of the island managed to keep their "mother tongues" ;)?



But they did...



Could you or Andre answer dt..'s questio in msg 11 ?!



Andre_514, re msg 10



"I can't see that 'Cypriot' per se independently exists anymore. " .. don't disagree - that was the "plan" - it's called Taksim - division..



The state of play you describe is mostly as was intended.. THAT's why a TC lady I know who grew up in a TC village didn't know TURKISH !



THAT's why TCs know that that ultimately TURKEY calls the shots- and that one should be careful for what one wishes for ;)



Did you know that since 74 there is no such thing as "Turkish" in Coffee or Delight in the "rump" RoC or Greece !



Semantics gone mad...

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 14:04

Dear Traveller0392 re msg 16



"ask a man from Belfast if he's Irish?"



20 years ago you have only two choices of answer.. the GREAT thing now is that you MIGHT get the answer.. NO.. I'm from Riga or Warsaw.. ;)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 14:05

re msg 18 ..same applies in Lima(s)sol, too



Ask a person on the strip if they are Cypriot... you'll get lot's of different answers ;)

Traveller0392


Joined: 21/03/2008
Posts: 186

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 14:14

.... ask a man or woman from Paris .. is he French or Parisienne? ...... i have a very good friend from Belfast.. falls road... works in B&Q ...... and getting away from the Cyprus analogy slightly... i asked him if he considered himself ... British or Irish......? ...... he said were are part of Great Britain...



Lived most of his adult life in UK... but still had roots on the republic.... now ask the same question to a person from Cork city.....



... I agree it really depends where you are looking from..... as for the pre 74 situation.... a friend of ours who's father was Greek.. to a Turkish mother.... was brought up in a Greek village.... speaks both languages fluently.... and also German as she left the island to study in Germany..... she also teaches Cyprus history.... very difficult to know which side she's coming from... but says on the whole how things were here in the 60's. I blame the government..... 's

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 14:18

re 15, Juliet



the "danger" you face on here is it is possible to get carried away and sound like it was utopia per 74 - which it CLEARLY wasn't ..



I'd like to see both ethnic groups sharing the island and see no problem living in the "north" if any EU citizen could live and work there... and property ownership was clear-cut..



Can you tell me where TR names are common on Road signs in the "rump" Roc.. apart from the SBAs.. ? ;)



I wish they WERE still prevalent..

Traveller0392


Joined: 21/03/2008
Posts: 186

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 14:19

I hope in someway this answers your original question Juliet?



as for the Cyprus problem.... at the moment I'm reading Wikipedia on the history of Makarios... the III....



..... that is when my internet isn't clocking off..... i've got one of these routers and a wireless connection.... one doesn't seem to be talking to the other..... tried to ping it and it fell off the windowsill...... I live 2 floors up.... so the impact was a little too much for my plastic box.... at least the blue light comes on now....mmm!

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 14:39

Juliet



"again why have you bought in Cyprus if you prefer the Turkish way of life."



Because it's a lovely island and the 'Turks' don't rip me off any more than the 'Greeks' do, maybe less.



Also the North has not yet been so obscenely overdeveloped as the South has.



Remember that the 'South' was promoted as the 'low cost' Med 'secret' retreat as little as 15 yrs ago, since when the Greeks have ruined it.



Rob

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 14:46

mmmmmm



Turkish street names are for all to see in the tc areas of Cyprus, ie, larnaca town center, behind the mosque just of lca seafront,they are also seen in paphos & limmasol in the old tc quarters.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 14:51

Dear "Juliet" re msg 24



May be forget I lived in the "rump" RoC and I'm sorry, but these areas are WAY in the minority..



New signs are only in Greek and "English" ... LarnaKa, Lefosia.. for Larnaca and Niscosia.. these road signs break the laws of the RoC.. they SHOULD have Turkish, too :(

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 14:58

dt. msg 26



" Then who built the Ancient Greek ruins in Salamis?"



Twas the Romans was it not? That's all we need , the Italians laying claim to CYprus as well ;)

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 15:17

mmmmmm



i wasn`t talking about NEW signs, the old tc houses & street signs have remained the same, at least they are still the same names as they were before the invasion, as dt says not like the north of Cyprus where anything cypriot (tc or gc) has been wiped out...and talking minoritys yes the tcs were but at least there mosques, homes, etc are still respected, where can an orthodox or christian person go & pray in the north of Cyprus? oh yes i forgot ,in the old churchs which are now either converted mosques or cow sheds..... so i AM right in thinking that the expats prefer turkism to cypriot.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 15:25

dt. msg 28



"Had Evagoras (King of Salamis) been called Giuseppe then you might have a point."



I understand major parts of the ruins that remain today were built by Hadrian. In reality they were probably built by Cypriot slaves commanded by Hadrian, but hey history doesnt really remeber the slaves or their names.



Was this Evagoras person a Cypriot btw ? Or was he some foul invader of Cyprus stealing land from the native Cypriots and imposing his culture on them ?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 15:44

dt........

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 15:47

Juliet msg 29



"but at least there mosques, homes, etc are still respected,"



Yeah you can see the 'respect' shown to TC homes in the RoC directly via google earth. Have a look at this snapshot (just one of many I could upload) from google earth.



http://www.visionmatters.co.uk/cyprus/softades.jpg



You see all those things that look like animal pens ? Well they are animal pens but they used to be TC homes.



http://www.mlahanas.de/Cyprus/Geo/Softades.html



Population 1960 -117. Population 1982 - 0



http://wikimapia.org/8873078/Softades-Softalar-%CE%A3%CE%BF%CF%86%CF%84%CE%AC%CE%B4%CE%B5%CF%82



"A turkish populated village before 1974"



With respect like that who needs disrespect ?



This is not a lone example but one of many that could be used.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 15:51

dt. msg 31



founded by Treucer, ruled by Evagoras however the main part of the ruins that are there today that you refered to were built under orders from Hadrian, which if I am not mistaken is not a classic Greek name is it ? I always understood him to be a Roman, but what do I know ?

Traveller0392


Joined: 21/03/2008
Posts: 186

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 15:57

Hello dt.... .... on recent excavations in Salamis.... founded by 'Teucer'.... note the spelling.... there were some writings uncovered. The language used was Greek.... on seeing this one of the tourists spotting it said... 'look... see it was all Greek".... he was subsequently corrected as to who built the Salamis we see today and it is definitely... ROMAN... who were regarded as the Eastern Roman Empire, eventually splitting to become the Byzantine Empire.... read constantinople ......and during that period they spoke Greek as did many people in the area... used by scholars and the establishment. Was it the Greeks who invented the term I came I saw, I conquered?

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 16:01

erolz



the google earth photos you have posted were farming areas before 74 & are still in use as farms, have you noticed how much land the tcs in this village have? wonderful isnt it? & not a brand new home on it in sight...

Traveller0392


Joined: 21/03/2008
Posts: 186

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 16:08

..... i hear too that they have changed the school history books in Cyprus... south side that is.......



EU... balanced view and all that.......uh?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 16:20

Juliet msg 36



"the google earth photos you have posted were farming areas before 74 & are still in use as farms,"



No juliet the pictures are of a TC village in the RoC. You can see on the image that the houses that used to be TC house pre 74 are now used by the Greek Cypriots as animal pens. I only point this out because of your claim that the south 'respects' the pre 74 homes of TC. Using such homes to house sheep and goats and cows (and I think some pigs but might be wrong) is not what I call 'respect'. The houses are now in rack an ruin which is hardly surprising given that they are used (for profit) as animal pens.



I have little hope that actual evidence will have any impact on your pre held views. You believe what you want to believe and eviedence matters little to you going on your previous posts. You can calim and even believe that the RoC 'respects' pre 74 TC homes but the pictures tell a very different story.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 16:31

dt.



I really did not mean to get into a history argument. Certainly Greek culture pervades all over Cyprus and for a very long time. Greek culture as the dominant culutre of its time came to Cyprus thousands of years ago and subsumed and obliterated the prior native Cypriot culutre entirely. I do not dispute that. I also do not support the renaming of places in the North for that matter either. However the Gymansium and its colums is the main part of the ruins of Salamis and it was built (not rebuilt) by Hardian and Trajan following an earthquake in around 76 AD. Emporers of the (western) roman empire. Oh and Hadrians rule is around 117 AD not BC.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 16:55

dt. msg 42



"Could you provide me with the source that states the gymansium standing today and the necropolis were built first hand by Hadrian?"



http://www.cypnet.co.uk/ncyprus/city/famagusta/salamis/index.html



"It still does not take away from the fact that an elminination of Greek Cypriot culture from the island has been succesfully carried out in the north."



As a living culutre it was all but removed post 74 along with those Greek Cypriots that were forced from the North. As a historic culture there have been some efforts to remove that but they have not sucsessfully eleminated it from the North in my view. Denying the Greek cultural heritage in Cyprus pointless, just as denying the later Turkish one is.



"BTW, we could do with your posting over on the Cyprus forum, too many idiots piling in these days posting rubbish."



I am afraid I am not allowed to post there these days. A condition of my posting there was



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 16:58

that i made no referance to other sites even in PRIVATE messages to other users, which I felt was too much of a restriction of my 'human rights' to allow for me to accept such a condition ;) I was willing to agree not to mention other sites in public posts but demanding that I also do so in private one to one communications was too much for me to be honest.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 17:27

(sorry for off topic post)



dt.



To be fair the whole history of me and cyprus-forum.com is a long complex and intensly boring story. In reality the quick summary of the 'end' of it above probably paints an unfairly harsh impression of the owner of the site. A lot of water passed under a lot of bridges and I guess I played my part in antagonising to some degree at times. Ultimately not being able to post there is quite a relief in many ways.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 18:54

I'm somewhat puzzled re all this history. Can anyone explain why Cyprus doesn't have it's own language? Did one ever exist? With all the comings and goings of various conquerors shouldn't it be a mixture of Greek, Turkish, French, English etc? Wouldn't it be a unifying feature it there was?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 20:18

Dear dt.. re msg 26



I am truly sorry, that you are a displaced Cypriot.. but didn't you have a chance to "get Morphou" back ..... ? I KNOW Annan wasn't back and white.. I also know that it was a "start"...



Can you HONESTLY see any plan that is acceptable to GCs now getting "accepted" by TCs and their "recent" friends from the mainland... ?



In case you didn't realise I'm an Ulster prod and we kept saying "NO Surrender" and folk died pointlessly... We were in the EU and so was Eire... What WAS the point?



Agreed we didn't have the HUGE issue of recent property loss / ethnic cleansing, etc.



Let's get TR in the EU and let's HOPE ..

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 20:39

to answer juliets's original question which is a very reasonable one,



1 turkey drives on the wrong side of the road and my concentration is variable

allied to this I prefer three-pin plugs and imperial echoes, don't larf

2 turkey is by no means a hassle-free zone for foreigners,

see ukturk's recent posting about the many practical difficulties for ex-pats

3 north cyprus while maddeningly chaotic has very considerable charm



as regards the native born tc's and tc diaspora



1 uneasy seeing their homeland dominated by mainland settlers and rich kids

2 they may well have had good relations with the many fair-minded gc's,

probably few of whom were active in the anti-tc pogroms in the 60's & 70's

3 a reunification agreement, one which the republic of cyprus would agree to,

would quickly shove them back into a subordinate and vulnerable position

"out of the frying pan into the fire" as it were

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
24/03/2009 22:16

and lets not forget why the turkish army is here in the first place ???????????//

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
25/03/2009 00:13

beats me why the south rejected annan (what more is on offer juliet?)

there! I have now broken my own rule never to mention annan again



tens of thousands of their refugees actually fled from guzzelmorph itself



but it can only be that they felt they'd be giving away their "birthright"

while the greek church considers that all the land of cyprus is holy

as one poster has suggested they have money and don't need more,

in spite of some cyprus 44 members suggesting they should be paid off



perhaps they calculated they would cop the whole lot eventually,

rather like the story of the young bull and the old bull:

maybe they hoped the whole northern "thing" would kind of disintegrate

or turkey climb into their landing craft like a tape run backwards



this has relevance for the present talks, making them appear almost surreal

(yes that word again)

because, just as some partisan once asked in world war 2: "if not now, when?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/03/2009 04:01

dt msg 52 - 54



A few points



"The fact that the plan was racist and allowed anyone else in the EU to settle wherever they liked in Cyprus apart from the Cypriots themselves is another reason. Only 6% of village in the north statelet could be inhabited by GC's leading up to a maximum 18% over 2 decades."



It was upto 18% after 19 years , or Turkish entry into the EU at which time all such restrictions ended. This restriction was on GC who wished to reside in the north and vote as part of the TC component state at that level. Any number could have had homes in the north whilst continuing to be resident and a citizen of the South component state. The only reason these restrictions applied to GC and not other EU members (except Greeks) is that only GC were potenital going to move to a degree that would undermine the nature of the component states citizenships. So yes some restrictions, but not permanent and not racist and with a valid purpose - namely



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/03/2009 04:07

to provide a temporary protection that would ensure that in year one both component states did not become numericaly dominated by the GC community alone.



"On the other hand the TC's who are the minority get 150,000 settlers remaining (50,000 + families)"



The plan allowed for a list of upto 45,000 names of turkish mainland settlers who would have been given citizenship under the new system. THe north I beleive actually provided a list of around 36,000. These citizens 'families' would have had the same rights to citizenship of any other citizens, not any sort of guaranteed citizenship. To say Annan allowed for 150,000 settlers to gain citizenship is not true.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/03/2009 04:11

""Well we were given an unworkable consitution in 1960 and the President tried to amend it to make it workable due to the impending bankruptcy of the govt due to a paralysis envoked by the TC community. (The argument was over split municipalities so the TC's refused to vote through the budget leaving the govt unable to "



Makarios AGREED the consitution. Makarios AGREED to implement seperate municiplaites in it. Yet as soon as it was signed he refused to implement that which was agreed. When the TC leadership took this issue of non implemenation to the Consitutional Court, the legal cypriot body with the duty to resolve such issues, Makarios declared that he would simply ignore the Courts rulings , which he did when they ruled against him. This led to the independant (european btw) head of the consitutional court to resgin and effectively destroyed the legal means of setteling such disputes in Cyprus as was the plan



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/03/2009 04:18

When the TC leadership responded to these outregous illegal acts by Makarios by using their legal and consitutional right to not ratify the budget Makarios simply declared they had no such right and were trying to destroy the RoC. He then 'proposed' ammendments to the consitution (they were first announced as unilateral changes , then after pressure from the British Makarios changed the announcement to 'proposals') that would have totaly changed the whole basis of the 1960 agreements and removed all of the TC communites legal and consitutional rights. A stratagy that is clearly detailed in the Akritas plan btw. With the oputbreak of intercommunal violence when the TC leadership withdrew from government (also a LEGAL for of protest) the GC leadership then simply went ahead and passed legislation that removed the TC communites legal consitutional rights. When the TC leadership responded to this attempts by requesting that they be allowed to take up their legal positions



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/03/2009 04:22

They were told by Clerides , against all legality and with a destropyed consitutional court and in a atmosphere of intercommunal violence, that they would not be ALLOWED to return unless they simply accepted the illegal removal of thier consituional rights as a fait acompli and that if they did try and return without first accepting this 'their saftey could not be guaranteed.'