when is the last of the Orams case

girne


Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
15/04/2009 12:03

Does anyone know when the Orams case is wıth the EUROPEAN COURTS?

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
15/04/2009 12:14

think it has already been and will be announced shortly.

the main point is if a judgement in one e.u state can be enforced in another e.u state.

the recommendations from the e.u were yes it should be enforcable, but there are also clauses in the wording of all this.

all should be revelled at the end of this month i think.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
15/04/2009 12:47

There is no doubt that normally all decisions of the courts in one member country should be enforcable in all. The crux of this matter is that can ROC rule about a land in north Cyprus which is outside her control?



If ECJ rules (as expected) in favour of ROC, and if UK courts abide by it, it will mean that as far as EU is concerned, ROC has the full say for north Cyprus. So what are the talks about and why UN and others are trying to find a solution? If one accepts such a ruling, either EU will become a monkey or the UN who is helping with the negotiations.



I am all in favour of ECJ rfuling in favour of ROC, it will only help to put the final nail in the coffin of a united Cyprus. The powers be will have to come up with a new set of conditions and probably give their blessing for a divided island as they did in Yugoslavia.

ismet

Amber


Joined: 26/09/2008
Posts: 561

Message Posted:
15/04/2009 13:13

I think its the 28th of this month.

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
15/04/2009 17:51

Elko

I hate to disagree with you, but I read the Orams case as not being about a ROC court ruling about land in the North. The case was decided in the claimants favour in the South simply because the Orams advocate from the North failed to enter a defence in time. He never did give an explantion.

Having gained the judgement and the Orams appeal dismissed (on the judgement being given in default), the matter was referred to the ECJ by the UK High Court to ask whether a judgement from one EU country can be enforced in another. As you say there is little doubt that the ECJ will rule that they can be. This case whilst politically a hot potato for North v South has ramifications across the EU for claimants to get compensation from assets held by debtors in another EU country.

jay76


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 532

Message Posted:
15/04/2009 18:04

Prob will take as long as the cyprus talks itself.

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
15/04/2009 18:41

'Prob take as long as the cyprus talks itself.'

Thats the rub, no it wont. Once the ECJ gives it's judgement on the 26th April I believe it is, then that will be binding on the UK civil courts. The only option left would be for an application to be made for leave to appeal the ECJ decision. It's not a foregone conclusion that they will get permission though.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
15/04/2009 19:33

rtddci,

ref. msg.5



Please see msgs 1-5 http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/9171.asp



When a court refers a case for an opinion to ECJ, they ask for specific questions to be answered and this is exactly what they did in this instance. The main question was about enforcing a ROC decision wrt territory outside the aquis. We did have the set of 5 or so questions mentioned somewhere on Cyprus 44. SWo it was not a simple question of wether decisions of ROC courts could be enforced or not in other member coutries. It was more specifix than that.

ismet

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
15/04/2009 21:38

Elko

I agree with you. I've re read the ECJ AG opinion and I can see your point about the ROC having full say over the north and what's the point of the talks? Learn something new each time one reads it.

Problem is, the looming ramificatons that are likely to happen to anyone owning/buying exchange land who also has assets in a EU country. What is your view as to what will happen if the ECJ ratifies this opinion?

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
15/04/2009 21:44

hope your right elko msg3 ///

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 09:42

rtddci

i think your right the back lash of this could be amazing.



for those who only have assets here should be ok, but say for instance they want to enter the roc for shopping or the uk for medical treatment or family visits?



then anyone who has assets elsewhere in the uk will risk loosing them/or claims against them.



when they were looking at this judgement i'm sure that there were clauses alongside which mentioned the cyprus talks and that they could not use this ruling if it were to de-rail them.

i shouldn't think that will stop the gc's claiming though, and if there isn't a settlement here, where does that leave the situation.?

Geoff


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 1370

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 09:59

So the only solution to this and the CyprusProb is a settlement!

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 10:00

yes geoff,

i agree a settlement once and for all.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 10:32

The expats may have a house at risk but the Turkish Cypriots have their country at risk, so there will not be a solution at any cost. Such unjust results can only help bring the matter to a final conclusion and I am sure the Turkish side will not capitulate.

ismet

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 10:39

ismet,

why do you feel the results would be unjust?

would it not be better for both the tc's and gc's to be able to sort all these issues out once and for all.

i don't believe that everyone will be winners from it, but a little give and take could do wonders for cyprus as a whole.

without some sort of solution, where do you feel it would leave the trnc in general?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 10:54

firestarter,

According to the expected ecj ruling, the ROC has full jurisdiction over the whole of Cyprus, no ifs and buts. I am not buying that one, just pure and simple. No solution is far better than surrender to the courts of EU which look at things in a very simplistic manner i.e. ROC is a member representing the whole of Cyprus. They decided it to be such and we had no say in it so it is in no way binding on us as far as we are concerned.

ismet

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 12:20

i can see where your comming from but where has the trnc left all those expat home buyers?

i don't think the e.u are ruling in that way, just that a judgement in one state can be enforced in another, is surely the issue here.

the e.u has always seen the roc as the recognised gov here, and i just feel that until there is a solution this will never change. they will never back track and recognise the trnc so the only way forward is to get a solution where they do recognise the tc's and their part in the gov and control of the island.

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 13:41

I agree with firestarter as to the ramifications for exchange property 'owning' EU expats in NC. If a GC property owner gets a ROC judgement which is then enforced in the UK. Tne problem then the expats could find themselves bankrupted in the UK with no credit worthiness for credit cards, loans, mortgages etc. Whilst I too can see Elkos viewpoint, this also will have a devastating affect on the TRNC economy once this kicks off for expats.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 14:55

i have recently been talking with a few friends and basically with the elections coming they are supporting the turkey direction but also complaining turkey is not giving them enougth money.

when it hits the fan with this orams thing, who is going to be stupid enough to buy here or invest here? they cannot afford this to happen.

people are leaving as fast as they can, i have only recently met one couple who are happy here, everyone else i meet are leaving or wanting to leave.

no amount of hot air or misleading guarantees are going to save this place.

then i guess the tc's will know the real meaning of isolation, which they don't deserve but are not willing to help themselves.

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 15:00

Fs



unfortunatly not enough original tcs to take on Turkey, sad but true..

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 15:10

juliet,

i think the truth is they have been fed by turkey for far too long and need to stand on their own feet now.

what are the feelings of people from your side of the island regarding the orams thing?

i know they want their lands back but do they think this case will pave the way? opening the flood gates??

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 15:27

Fs



Its all going well for the apostolides family regarding the orams, this comes straight from the horses mouth.......



people on this side of the island want what is right & if the orams lose there case it will prove to the rest of the world that a little bit of justice has been done... i think the flood gates will open after the solution of the island has been finalised.. some people in the new plan will lose land, homes even villages on both sides, but all will be compensated one way or another, if the compo is not agreed on then i can imagine a lot will do what Mr apostolides has done. not long till we find out..

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 16:29

I really don't see that not because I don't want to but common sense prevails whole families and village communities uprooting again after they have spent 35 years rebuilding thier lives, come on get a grip of reality.

It is looking more and more like the stage is being set for a two state island.



"Its all going well for the apostolides family regarding the orams, this comes straight from the horses mouth"..... The orifice at the other end of the horse more like it is too early to make any statement about that yet as well you know, very predictable propoganda. NO ONE knows the outcome of that one until it is anounced, Straight from the horses mouth.



Not long to go now and the horse will speak.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
16/04/2009 17:02

i think what juliet ment was that by the sounds of it a solution if it happens ,will be when place like varosh will go back under south/roc control.

my tc friends also feel this will happen with a few places guzelyurt is another, the only place they are sure won't go back is girne and any other villages which were origionally tc villages.

this is due to the land proportions/population /ownership pre 1974.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
20/04/2009 19:15

Now that the UBP are in and they want a harder line on any deal talks I think this will certainly help the Orams case, the EU now know that there is no way they can enforce a judgement in TRNC so what option is left take the UK property, don't think so, the UK government are not that stupid it could end up with chancers from all 4 corners of the earth making daft claims against Brits overseas.

Maybe this is why they waited until after the elections so they can act accordingly.

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
20/04/2009 19:47

I think I am right in saying that the Orams case commenced before the property commision was set up.If this is the case the UK courts could refer the matter back to Cyprus by saying that all domestic remedies have to be exhausted first.This could occur even if the judgement at the ECJ goes against the Orams.

I believe the property commision is recognised as a legitimate means to deal with such issues even if the GC government dont like it

Further the ECJ decision is not a for gone conclusion.As far as the EU is concerned the UBP win in the elections is bad enough.A bad judgement from the ECJ could be the final nail in the coffin in respect of the talks

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
20/04/2009 22:16

BillBarnacle

Can see your point although I think that all ROC domestic remedies were exhausted. The UK court will be bound by the ECJ decision otherwise what was the point of the High Court referring it to the ECJ? The ECJ AG 'opinion' basically dismissed the TRNC property commission route on grounds that MR A didn't have to go down that route if he didn't want to. I'm interested in Elko's view on ramifications.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
20/04/2009 22:51

I think it will take another two years after the decision of ECJ to exhaust the case fully i.e. the decision of the court of appeal in UK and later the House of Lords.



In my view the end result is not a foregone conclusion. If UK courts have to abide by the ROC decisions on property and jurisdiction over north Cyprus, it may be the last straw and cause a political uproar and make a monkey of peace talks with Greek Cypriots. As far as ECJ decision is concerned there will be nothing to talk about and no problem to solve i.e. ROC has full jurisdiction over the whole of Cyprus but of coursr this is not the case in reality. So all this may lead to the beginning of the end which may end up with full recognition of TRNC or Turkey may annex north Cyprus and declare it as an independent entity within Turkey i.e. independent on internal matters but part of Turkey on foreign matters, some sort of protoctorate. Anything goes really but one thing is certain: Turkey or the Turkish Cypriotw will

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
20/04/2009 22:54

The Turkish Cypriots will never surrender to the Greek Cypriots. So the end result will be exactly the opposite of what they strived for. Many Europeans underestimate the importance and influence of Turkey but UK is not one of them. When the chips are down they will be on the side of Turkey and dump Greece and Cyprus twins.

ismet

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/04/2009 00:03

Dear Saints,re msg 25



1/ The UBP being "in power" has no bearing on the Orams' case.. it is now with the ECJ



2/ The EU don't want a "headache" with Cyprus - but the FACT of the matter is that the RoC is the only legally recognised govt and it is the EU member.



3/ We await the ruling - and as Ismet suggests - even if it goes with the AG's legal advice.. the UK is quite capable of playing politics - I even suggested that Judge Jacks original decision WAS political - on another board - and Ismet refuted it.. but I believe the UK DOES want to keep TR onside - but there's not much it can do as the ROC is in the EU.. apart from delaying..hoping for a political solution.



"Maybe this is why they waited until after the elections so they can act accordingly".. WHO waited ? .. ECJ ? nah...



Mike.. the Orams' brief made a BIG mistake in ignoring the RoC writ .. depending on the outcome - it is unlikely anyone with EU assets will do so again.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
21/04/2009 15:14

my feelings are that the new trnc gov was the final nail as in the ecj recommendations had some clauses alongside which said that the talks would not be de-railed by any decition.

now with the new gov, talks might as well be over, so i think they will just rule on it now anyway, they have nothing to lose and the talks are going nowhere with this lot.

it won't be long now and we will find out!

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
21/04/2009 15:22

Why should the talks be over the new Govt have not even started administration yet and you have written them off, they can not be any worse than the outgoing bunch at least they have benchmarks to improve on left by the CTP, give them a chance you may be suprised.

The UBP want the TRNC to be internationally recognised the current talks are a way to achieve this by coming to a solution ok it may be a case of a little more give and take on both sides but still achievable. Bi Zonal, Federational, Two States which is already on the drawing board anyway.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/04/2009 15:35

Mike, Mike, re msg 32



"TRNC" is NEVER, EVER going to get recognised .. China and Russia will never vote to overturn the Security Council resolution declaring it legally invalid unless a deal is agreed.



UBP .. DP before them.. made it a keystone - recognise "TRNC" as an entity and we will talk.. it just ain't gonna happen.



The ONLY deal in town in the bi-zonal , federated approach.

aweverard


Joined: 13/07/2008
Posts: 54

Message Posted:
21/04/2009 15:44

only a week to go to hear the ECJ, 28 April is the current due date.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
21/04/2009 15:44

I think the bi-zonal , federated approach would work, for UBP it probably just depends what the give and take criteria is to conclude the deal.