hands up those people

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
02/05/2009 00:36

hands up those people who believe that the uk will get involved in court actions against british people and others assets in order too pay greek cypriots compensation , and if they did this and left people with no money or a home ,then who would have too pick up the pieces "the british goverment" does anyone really think the british goverment would allow themselves to get involved in another countries problem.



and as for the eu telling us" let the cypriots work it out for themselves " i surmise hyprocity.



once again the turkish cypriots get pushed around ,but i as a turkish cypriot like many turkish cypriot today ,are not so easily pushed.



does anyone really believe the orams case means anything ,will it change anything ,er NO.



musin



long live the kktc

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
02/05/2009 00:51

Musin,

I think that the brit gov will sit on the fence on this one as always.Seems to me like the playground bullies(gcs) as usual are calling all the shots and the spineless government will take the side of the status quo.We need Bono on this one.The Orams case i.m.o. will not change a thing and isnt finished yet,

Paul.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
02/05/2009 01:10

Paul,



the "bullies" are anyone - and that would include GCs - who THINK it is "OK" to ethnically cleanse folk and pretend it never happened.



ALL the Orams proves is the "surreality" of "TRNC" and how IF the law can't get to those who break the laws of the legally recognised state - it might be possible to "get" at assets outside of the "bubble"..



Since the case started the ECHR has ruled that Turkey had to provide a local remdey - and any further such writs - like served on the Orams' should NOT be ignored. The only defence now is that the courts of the RoC should not be the first route of redress.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
02/05/2009 13:34

Mark. I think if an application is made to a UK court for compensation for a property that is/was owned ina state not recognised by any EU country, the UK court will throw it out. How can a UK court support an application for compensation in respect of a property in a 'place' that they do not recognise.



Status Quo.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
02/05/2009 13:46

Dear Bill, re msg 4



You seem to miss the WHOLE point of the ECJ verdict.. namely that it was on the correct interpretation of the use of Protocol 10 - involving the regulations concerning the part of CY where the govt does not exercise effective control - that is NOT "propaganda".. The Court of Eng and Wales has asked for LEGAL advice and got it...



The ruling concerned if a RoC judgement - appertaining to something beyond their control could be enforced in a third party EU state- it CAN..



The Orams' mistake was to allow a judgement to be entered against them in default...



Most members now KNOW the legal reality of the status of "TRNC" .. it "exists /remains" because of military force... but in the eyes of the highest mortal body on earth - UN - it is legally invalid .



It is time to end the surreality of the island and this case might actually help bang some heads together... to find a solution.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
02/05/2009 13:52

Mark, in that case....the Party's over then? We'd better all hand over the keys to our property now?



I don't think so.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
02/05/2009 14:04

Naw Bill,



you don't need to do that the gist is IF your ownership was challenged in the form of a writ you would immediately respond and refer the plaintif to the IPC, not leaving it too late to respond as the Orams did.

You would then be conforming to the correctly recognised mechanism for solution of your particular situation and the IPC would make a decision on it.

Well that is for the time being anyway until we see if this present situation moves both sides to a quicker solution.

witchfinder



Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 155

Message Posted:
02/05/2009 14:09

If i remember rightly a couple of years ago was there a court case against a turk Cypriot who burnt down this house in UK and killed some one in side and he fled to NC the court case to place there and all the evidence was brought out from UK and he was jailed for murder.Now for UK courts not to recognise NC is a load of rubbish if they can hold a court case they should support all the expats &Brits who could loose their homes.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
02/05/2009 14:10

Hi Mike.



It continues to amaze me that Orams left it too late to respond, given that they had 'expert' legal advice. I've heard some conspiracy theories like everyone else, but I can't understand why this simple issue could have prevented the situation we all now find ourselves in.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
02/05/2009 14:12

maybe they are just Pawns in the big game mate and it was always intended to get someone, anyone in this position in the game. A "TEST" case.

Geoff


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 1370

Message Posted:
02/05/2009 14:57

The British Government may not wish to get involved in (in effect) getting British Expats to lose their homes in KKTC, but the British Courts have no such restrictions.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
02/05/2009 16:18

I wonder if it will be lost on the British government the number of Brits who have not got their deeds in the South. They may consider the British poorly treated by our Cypriot friends.



In any case, the British government will have to comply with the courts decision.



When Cyprus eventually becomes uninhabitable (due to climate change, and perhaps not that far away) I wonder how many will be scrambling to get to the UK, potentially one of the few safe havens in the world.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
03/05/2009 16:37

Its interesting that they could have tried that man here for murder commited in the UK when its taken some 10 years to let a robber loose here and steal lives then deport him to do his trial in the UK. What are the standards are we legal or not.They have take Mr Robb back and a few other but Azil Nadir is still here. Maybe rightly so as this is his country. Such double standards xx

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
03/05/2009 16:42

Its interesting that they could have tried that man here for murder commited in the UK when its taken some 10 years to let a robber loose here and steal lives then deport him to do his trial in the UK. What are the standards are we legal or not.They have take Mr Robb back and a few other but Azil Nadir is still here. Maybe rightly so as this is his country. Such double standards xx

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
03/05/2009 17:33

The UK may find themselves in a difficult position.The case of arson refered was indeed prosecuted by the UK and Turkish Cypriot authorities liasing.Turkish Cypriot police even travelled to the UK to collect evidence.



This I would suggest shows some degree of recognition of an organ of the TRNC state or at the very least recognition of the TRNC legal system



Further the EU/ECHR although not recognising the TRNC have accepted that there is a seperate legal system in existence and they accept legal rulings of that system



It would be difficult for the UK/EU to enforce a RoC court order if that order requires an individual to commit a crime in the area governed by this seperate legal system (i.e.demolishing the Orams villa)



There is no doubt that the GC president is going to exploit this ruling in the talks he has said so in briefings to the press.But as far as more litigation is concerned I think this is doubtful as the process remains a legal and political minefield

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
03/05/2009 19:54

Interesting article in Cyprus Mail today (Sunday). http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/



Does not make for comfortable reading and gives a good indication as to what the affected GC's will do now, if there was any doubt. I am pessimistic that the UK labour government will lift a finger for bourgois property owning Brits either north or south Cyprus. I also have very little doubt that the UK Court of Appeal will follow the ECJ ruling and will enable enforcement of the judgement against the Orams UK assets.

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
03/05/2009 19:58

The ominous & forboding quote in that Cyprus Mail article is



"The human rights lawyer further suggested the long tentacles of the law could stretch beyond the EU to other countries whose residents have property interests in the north Potentially, judgements could be enforced anywhere in the world where there is a bilateral judicial enforcement agreement with an EU country, possibly including Russia, Israel or even Turkey."



That could be interesting. An EU court judgement re property in TRNC being enforced in Turkey under 'a bilateral enforcement agreement'!

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
03/05/2009 23:41

In answer to the original question the British courts will not get involved in this issue because it is a highly charged political case which has to be solved by both sides sitting down and agreeing a compensation package that covers all the people of Cyprus.





Long live the kktc

Arthur


Joined: 04/11/2008
Posts: 687

Message Posted:
03/05/2009 23:50

Don't panic, I'm sure that all Brits who have purchased property in NC will receive 100% support from our Glorious Leader Gordon Brown. Excuse me whilst I p#ss my pants..................

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
03/05/2009 23:51

Msg 18

Unfortunately, it appears you don't understand the British legal system. The courts will ignore the political issue unless legislation or the ECJ says otherwise, other than that the judges will follow the law.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
03/05/2009 23:58

rtddci I really don't think YOU understand the British legal system.



Let's just put it into context. The UK Court of Appeal (COA) requested a direction on a point in the case from the ECJ. It is not a judgment. It is a direction, so that they can continue with the case and provide their (COA) judgment which I believe will be in the Autumn*. Now the losing side has the mechanism to appeal that judgment (on a point of law or fact) to the House of Lords. Similarly, the losing side (on the same basis of appeal) from the House of Lords, can take their case to the European Court of Human Rights which is a completely different Court to the ECJ. This is the last stop so to speak.



So I would say that there is quite a long way to go before the conclusion of this matter. As both sides appear to have outside financial backing, then I should imagine that money would not be an issue when it came to the appeal process and given the high profile of this case, if there are points of law or fact

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 00:04

cont...



to give rise to an appeal, then undoubtedly either side will take that step.



The GC are extremely premature in crossing over and filming land/properties, but this has been going on since the border/green line opened anyway, so nothing new there. Just scaremongering in my opinion. Best ignore them and report them to the appropriate authorities in TRNC who will deal with the situation.



Hope this assists. Take care.



*The COA although "bound" by the direction of the ECJ can still depart from it on the basis of the maxims of equity (English Common Law or to put it simply - Judge made law).[/quote]

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 842

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 00:06

TheSaints

Wrong!

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 00:11

well one word sums it up, you really put up a good argument there I have to believe you, where's me razor blade?

Krawpy


Joined: 28/04/2009
Posts: 29

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 00:43

Just a couple of observations. Geoff (msg 11) is quite right. Any wish of UK Gov will have absolutely no sway on the UK Courts (unlike perhaps if it were the TRNC!). UK Gov policy often has difficulties with the judiciary.

I cannot understand why people get continually confused with the status of the TRNC internationally. To the UN (and EU), the WHOLE of the island of Cyprus is in the EU, not just the south. It is simply that due to occupation by a foreign power, RoC Sovereignty cannot be effectively established in the occupied area(TRNC). But this in no way establishes the area as possessing a separate governance or legal sysem. The comments of BillBarnacle (msg 15) "It would be difficult for the UK/EU to enforce a RoC court order if that order requires an individual to commit a crime in the area governed by this seperate legal system (i.e.demolishing the Orams villa)" is utter rubbish in the light of this reality. To the world, the occupied area has only the RoC legal system.

Krawpy


Joined: 28/04/2009
Posts: 29

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 01:04

Cont.

Saints - you speak a lot of sense. In real terms what do you think the probability is that the CoA will vary significantly from the ECJ direction. My opinion is absolutely no chance - rubber stamp job. Likewise you are absolutely correct - GC's pouring over the border with cameras is at present farcical. However its all part of this stage of the game. They are pressing home their perceived advantage at a time when sensitivities are peaking - check out all of the Cyprus headlines. Creating worry and insecurity is the aim of the moment. It may do no more than wind a few people up in TRNC but outside, the property market, which like all markets, is totally reliant upon confidence will be damaged irreparably to future EU purchasers. This knocks on to tourism and the wider TRNC economy. This is the true aim of the game - not land repossession - and I have to say that on the face of it it looks like job done.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 01:25

Msg 26



"Creating worry and insecurity is the aim of the moment. It may do no more than wind a few people up in TRNC but outside, the property market, which like all markets, is totally reliant upon confidence will be damaged irreparably to future EU purchasers. This knocks on to tourism and the wider TRNC economy. This is the true aim of the game - not land repossession - and I have to say that on the face of it it looks like job done"

Agreed and also a slight upper hand at the solution negotiating table, where land and property issues will be resolved on the whole, not piecemeal through the ROC courts or any other courts for that matter.

The orams case is a one off!

elkiton



Joined: 15/03/2009
Posts: 514

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 11:38

A well planned strategy by the South, or sheer arrogant racially motivated stupidity on their part? - My view is that they are trying to apply more "sanctions" and deliberately wreck the ailing property market here....nothing I have heard convinces me that there is anything behind their long term aims other than to rule the Island by a majority, marginalise the TC's and return to pre 74 status.



It must have a serious effect on the property market in the North, people I know are changing their long term plans wrt living here permanently to protect assets in UK



FYI I saw some photo's of houses being taken by a ROC plated car last week, 3 in convoy actually near Girne.



Myself, I am not worried, I will be long dead by the time the squabbling over property is actually finished,and with a bit of luck if the South keeps chapters of the EU accession closed then we may see Turkey abandon the EU and start a new power base with africa, syria et al -I actually hope this happens.

TonyE

Krawpy


Joined: 28/04/2009
Posts: 29

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 11:42

Msg 27 - I think more than a slight upper hand. It turns around the position attempted by the Annan plan which was very favourably inclined towards the north re land - hence the way the 2004 vote went. It will re-open a chasm between the two sides to the extent that the grounds for continuing talks are now undermined. The north in particular will need a good period to assess the negative effects before being persuaded to continue. Orams case a one-off? Maybe but it only needs to be a one-off. Itsets the principle for the future and destroys outsider confidence in the TRNC which was the intended outcome.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 12:26

Oram's case is not a one off. There are two more cases going through the courts as we speak. I think we will see many more. The GC's will wish to keep the media attention and momentum going.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 12:34

Hi there was a feature re the Ormams and other issues in yesterdays Mail on Sunday. Claiming people are receiving threats and most now wishing to leave. It also featured on the flowe show and interevied other property owners for thier stories. See Hilltops post on it as I dont know how to link it here. His post is called Another Press Release

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 12:40

This is the link Lilli is referring to above - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1176943/Theyve-branded-thieves-suffered-death-threats--hell-Britons-dreamed-retiring-Northern-Cyprus.html



Cooper

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 16:16

At the end of the day most people were informed that 'esdegar' land was safe because it had been exchanged for land in the South. Any claim / compensation will have to be paid by the persons who sold on the land in the first place. It would seem that most people here accepted that an exchange had taken place. Why would they not?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 16:18

Furthermore, I think the Orans should seek recompense from the person(s) who sold them the land in the first place.

canyavuz


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 363

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 21:39

British court will not let this go through. Their verdict previously was finding the orams not guilty, and i highly doubt they would change this view by allowing uk assets of these people to be seized.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
04/05/2009 22:01

canyavuz



i fully agree with you.







musin



long live the kktc

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
05/05/2009 01:49

I am afraid that the ROC agenda has been omnipresent for many years and at least since their refusal to accept the Annan plan of 2004.

The Civil litigation route to further the demise of the TRNC is only just getting under way. Expect to see applications for arrest and deportation warrents for execution in any EU state.

The ROC will push this all the way. It is really sad to see the total lack of response and preperation put forward by the TRNC administration.

I fear, as many will already know, a fast and irretrievable decline in the prosperity of the TRNC and also to a lesser extent of the ROC. I really cannot see the way forward from this point. The ROC see an opportunity to inflict untold damage to the TRNC. The TRNC will not bow down easily and trouble and strife could soon prevail.



It is clear to me that the likes of mmmmmm who feels that civil litigation only focuses the politicians upon a political settlement. Will soon witness the power of political victory.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
05/05/2009 01:55

continued.....

Political victory knows no mercy and the ROC will take no prisoners whilst they have the upper hand.



The UK Court of Appeal may consider the implications that this civil litigation will have upon many thousands of its own citizens. It must consider carefully the Law. It must just as importantly consider Justice and the implications upon people that have been clearly oppressed and discriminated against for far too long.