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ozzieTC


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 14:12

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Message 1 of 49 in Discussion

hello everyone - long time lurker, first time poster. I just found out from my cousin who is a civil servant in the TC government that the GCs are preparing a new case against airlines operating into Ercan. Apparently they will attempt to enforce court orders banning airlines that operate anywhere in the EU from flying to Ercan. An airline that does not observe the ban will be held in contempt by gc courts with penalties enforced via the judicial systems of other EU states. Worrying times...



Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 14:18

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Message 2 of 49 in Discussion

a***holes shut the border now declare trnc international free port tax free shopping and tax free gambling etc etc



cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 14:19

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Message 3 of 49 in Discussion

Scare tactics.

Do you think it will work ?



jacktheladett


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 528

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 14:31

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Message 4 of 49 in Discussion

Surely not, I thought all they wanted was to live in peace and harmony with their 'Cypriot brothers.'



Doesn't sound very harmonious to me!



CyprusChill


Joined: 08/05/2009
Posts: 666

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 14:34

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Message 5 of 49 in Discussion

Why such a panic and a need to ban flights, political leverage as an aid to prevent progresion perhaps.

High court hearing pending 18/05/09 and at least people are listening, albeit not acting on.

Besides Turkish air space would become like the bay of biscay to EU flights if it was not given aviation authority and who would fancy the job of judicial system debt collector on this one.



blinky



Joined: 07/12/2008
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 14:36

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Message 6 of 49 in Discussion

let them try and do it, the rest of the EC will then begin to realise what they are like against NC's, they will dig their own hole....



watty


Joined: 04/04/2008
Posts: 77

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 14:59

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Message 7 of 49 in Discussion

As posted on another topic TOTAL HYPOCRITES say one thing do another, just goes to show you can not trust any GC, they want a solution which suits them 100% and bugger any one else.



AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 15:07

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Message 8 of 49 in Discussion

If in fact it is true, then I am a happy man. Another nail in the coffin with regards to re-unification.

AJ



elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 15:24

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Message 9 of 49 in Discussion

Let them try. In fact anyone who occupies or deals with a Greek Cypriot property without the consent of its owner carries a penalty of 7 years. That means practically every Turkish Cypriot. They raised the penalty from 2 years to 7 years so that a European Arrest Warrant would be applicable in all EU countries. They are digging their own grave.

ismet



zcacmxi


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 388

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 15:29

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Message 10 of 49 in Discussion

Like children, when GCs are given some slack they spoil it and try and take it too far...



I can't help but feel that this will massively back fire on them. When they try to disrupt the will of the Republic of Turkey, they are quickly kicked back in to their place.



Anybody remember when the GCs bought and wanted to station some S300 missiles from Russia and wanted to install them in Cyprus? Turkey objected, and they were not installed.



zcacmxi


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 388

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 18:13

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Message 11 of 49 in Discussion

Trust nobody! Do not discriminate!



tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 18:43

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Message 12 of 49 in Discussion

i hope they attempt to do that ,, it will define our future , reunification dreams ended. piss turkey off , then they will see the error of their ways ....



zcacmxi


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 388

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 18:49

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Message 13 of 49 in Discussion

tommy13, you don't have to hope. The GCs have consistently since the 1960s taken every single step to make the North of Cyprus as Turkish as possible. The TCs would not have been this successful if they had tried!



From originally bringing Turkey here, to imposing embargos so that only Turkish businesses and Turkish people would settle here. The phone system Turk Telecom 00 90, the mobile phones Turkcell/Telsim, the airlines all Turkish, the shops all Turkish.



You can bet your bottom dollar, they wont give up until TRNC is like the Isle of Man or Jersey is to Britain... The TRNC is already a Turkish Dependency....



tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 18:51

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Message 14 of 49 in Discussion

yes i see your point ... they have in affect been the cause of everything that is today



gates


Joined: 08/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 18:53

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Message 15 of 49 in Discussion

my friend has a house in greece and even mainlanders in greece dont like them i personaly think they are the most miserable people i have met



zcacmxi


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 388

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 18:59

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Message 16 of 49 in Discussion

The more they isolate the Turkish Cypriots from the rest of the world, the more dependent and integrated North Cyprus becomes with Turkey.



To be honest, with such a large developing economy just 40 miles from our shores we could not be in a better position.



Soon, if they put all the EU citizens off buying property in TRNC, there will be even more Turkish settling here.



tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 19:07

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Message 17 of 49 in Discussion

interesting times ahead no doubt



clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
15/05/2009 20:57

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Message 18 of 49 in Discussion

Well said Nige....msg 2...I couldnt have put it more succinctly myself!



mojoe


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
16/05/2009 17:11

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Message 19 of 49 in Discussion

At present there are no direct european flights coming in to ercan?? maybe a few private jets...

correct me if im wrong, but i believe they are doing this because, the turks are taking the greeks to court

regarding direct flight issues in to ercan, therefore they are making issues difficult before, a settlement is made between the two sides north and south unification.



tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
16/05/2009 17:15

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Message 20 of 49 in Discussion

hey mojoe ... actually there have been numerous flights that have come direct and not landed in turkey , and some from ercan to london without landing on turkey , my brother and naan once were on flights like this , but they dont announce it until your on th flight , i dont know if anyone else has experienced this ... will be an interesting outcome this court hearing , oh and welcome to the board , noticed its your 1st post and your straight in there mate ...



Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
16/05/2009 17:25

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Message 21 of 49 in Discussion

It will not happen! Flights to Ercan come via Turkey and it would be ever so simple to have another company issue the ticket from Turkey to Ercan! It is just a ploy to get the sides to come to a solution with the GC holding an upperhand as a bona fide member of the EU!



mojoe


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
16/05/2009 18:01

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Message 22 of 49 in Discussion

thx for the welcome tommy, actually this is first time i heard about flights not stopping in Turkey, must be rare, anyways i am sure we will find out what will happen soon, i hope its a positive one for all concerned lol...



BeeBop


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 70

Message Posted:
16/05/2009 18:12

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Message 23 of 49 in Discussion

I have travelled on two flights direct from Stansted to Ercan. Yes we were due to land in Turkey, they announced on the flight we would not be stopping, to loud cheers and a happy flight. Arrived two hours early on both occasions, my friends had not even left Girne to collect us, downer we ended up having to get a taxi. Yes it does happen.



Dawnie1


Joined: 27/09/2008
Posts: 217

Message Posted:
16/05/2009 18:53

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Message 24 of 49 in Discussion

Yes direct flights do happen & both times we knew at the airport although it was not announced but it doesn't take too much working out when there are two flights leaving within 30 mins of each other &(Thurs nights or Friday nights I think) & everyone who is going to Turkey are told to check in at one desk & everyone else to check in at the other. Its great, have texted friends before take off to let them know so it does happen albeit rarely.



WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
16/05/2009 19:54

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Message 25 of 49 in Discussion

It is indeed the case that the Turkish incluence upon the TRNC is very evident. Turkish support, both economic and political has been a significant contibutor to the success of the region.

The ROC campain of isolation and embargo has little chance of sucess against the economic, military and political might of Turkey.



However, the ROC being a fully pledged member of the European community has the ability to effect itself very strongly in anything european.

WE have already seen this through the civil litigation case Apostolides v Orams.

I fear that Europeans residing and or investing in the TRNC will become the softer target for the xenophopic ROC. I expect to see a significant number of civil and possibly criminal cases comming before the ROC courts for enforcment accross the European Union.

Not a great omen for resolution and settlement to the Cyprus problem



girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
17/05/2009 14:04

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Message 26 of 49 in Discussion



Waz



Dont know if there will be a huge rise in cases.



The ROC has got what it wanted with its case against the Orams,economic damage.





I was never about getting GC's lands back,which has probably become harder now anyway ,by disregarding the effect the ROC bypassing the negotiations will have on the electorate in the North



It doesnt make any difference if the land is occupied or vacated, if the GC will never have it except on paper.

The end might be worse for the GC's if the vacant land could only be settled by non eu Turks as opposed to EU TC's or foreigners forbidden to use it. Basically Turkifying the north.



I think the ROC will stop its actions in EU courts now until the negotiations are concluded.Wont do to make Talat lose any more face with the electorate,by going behind his back again.



WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
17/05/2009 16:17

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Message 27 of 49 in Discussion

girne msg 29



I would very much like you to be correct and the ROC would settle for "economic damage"



However, I feel that many nationalistic GC,s will capitalise on the Orams precedent and follow the civil litigation path in order to futher the cause of TRNC destruction.

The ROC as an administration will most certainly pursue litigation and indeed criminal cases through its courts for enforcment in other EU states.

Certainly, if you own or have investments in TRNC be very aware NOT to carry any evidence accross the border.



Of course the monetary gain to individual ROC citizens via civil litigation is not likely to be huge but the political goals could be numerous and deeply effective upon the TRNC.



A unified settlement to the Cyprusis problem is the solution. It is however the ROC that now have the clear upper hand on property issues.



ozzieTC


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 05:54

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Message 28 of 49 in Discussion

Obviously this no way confirms my original reported rumour (and I stress that it is just that, a rumour), but some GC a**hole pretty much said the same thing on another forum:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus24050-10.html



My understanding is that the GC's prepare all manner of creative legal actions and take them to courts when they deem it to be politically expedient. The relative softness of the current government in Turkey appears to be making them bolder than they were in the past with their legal tactics. Although I have not seen this written in print, and obviously they would deny it and claim they knew they were in the right all along, winning the Orams case was a complete suprise to the GC's - for them the case was just a stab in the dark to put pressure on the governments of the TRNC & Turkey. My real fear is that this is the thin edge of the wedge, and next they will go after things that are more critical to the TNRC than the villa of a Brit expat.



rdsteve


Joined: 01/03/2009
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 07:59

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Message 29 of 49 in Discussion

Ozzie msg 1 my cousin in the civil service then msg 29 just a rumour why post crap on here if you have not got the truth. it justs winds people up who are stressed anyway due to the Orams case. Its people like you who are full of crap and post insignificant messages on this forum. Before you post why dont you think on what you are going to say and how it effects other posters. Basically everybody that has applied to your post is now looking silly due to you not putting the truth in your first message. There will never be any harmony between the south and the north whilst you put messages on like yours to wind people up when there is probably not an ounce of thruth in your message. I could say a lot more but i feel i am slightly more intellegent that it is best not said.



Steve



ozzieTC


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 09:39

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Message 30 of 49 in Discussion

Mate my posting the rumour is still useful information, regardless of if it's founded or not. The point is that such a legal approach by the gc's may well be possible, and no one has corrected me by explaining why it's impossible. Do you not think that it's better to be informed than to have one's head in the sand?



It's one thing for expat brits to get wound up over this kind of news, but you need to remember that the main victims of this are the TCs, and most TCs I know would rather know the full state of affairs rather than some sugar-coated reality...or notions of "the turkish military will intervene to save our investment/retirement properties". Pretty much all brit expats came to the TRNC with considerable wealth compared to TCs who were already here, and if things don't go well, can leave with their wealth. The TRNC is the only home of the TCs and the prospects of a fair and balanced political settlement are very important to us



ozzieTC


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 09:50

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Message 31 of 49 in Discussion

And I guarantee you that there is certainly truth to my message. The gc's have prepared legal briefs against everything and everyone, they have been systematically collecting evidence of everything that occurs in the TRNC that they consider to be "illegal" (except of course their own illegal actions) since the intervention in '74. Do you really think they want a political settlement? Absolutely not; they want a legal settlement. The talks are simply about convincing the world that the TCs are unreasonable, and that extrernal pressure should be brought to bear.



I posted my sketchy information because it is of interest and importance to people who read this board (wealthier expats - don't forget, the average financially struggling TC is much less likely to need to fly to western Europe!). Maybe you ought to start a new board: "The expat TRNC happy-clappy no bad news whatsoever message board".



Sorry to startle you, but this is the reality we all have to live with.



Jimmyboy63


Joined: 16/03/2009
Posts: 400

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 10:04

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Message 32 of 49 in Discussion

Mess 30 Excellent post Steve.....



Ozzie TC is this a joke!!!.....please don't write any more useless info



ozzieTC


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 10:13

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Message 33 of 49 in Discussion

Pray tell: how is my post useless? Are you going to correct me by telling me why this potential course of action is not possible or will not succeed? If you're keeping this to yourself, please share so that we can all feel better about the situation.



What you are really saying is: "please don't write any more info that is inconvenient or unpleasant for me", in which case I will ignore you. You (and anyone else similarly troubled by reality) are free to ignore me in turn.



Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 11:02

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Message 34 of 49 in Discussion

I am with you, ozzie. This is my one and only home, it's time to stand together. But you really must stop assuming that all Brits are rich.

There is a world of difference between holiday Brits and permanent Brits. A holiday Brit stands to lose their holiday home, a permant Brit everything.

We should be screaming at the world over the continued injustice against the TRNC. The problem is that the TCs (bless them) do not seem to have a clue how to fight back, which to me is the most worrying aspect. It is only recently that I have heard voices like your own. The more TCs that speak out, the more Brits will join them. At the moment we feel that we are on our own, and being clobbered from all sides.



Troodo



ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 11:12

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Message 35 of 49 in Discussion

I am with you Troodo. There is a misconception that Brits are wealthy. I know that many TC's live in squalor compared to the splendour of some of us Brits, but many Brits have only meagre savings and are only a stones throw away from real hardship.



OzzieTC, Brits have their homes to lose but you could lose your country. A recent poll showed that 70% of TC's felt that GC land should not have been sold. Perhaps the TC's are ready to give the land back. What do you reckon?



ozzieTC


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 11:25

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Message 36 of 49 in Discussion

I too am concerned that TCs do not know how to fight back. For too long we have relied on the military and economic muscle of Turkey, and the hairy-chested "the Cyprus problem was solved in 1974" mentality. The Cyprus problem was kind of solved in 1974 for Turkey, but not really for the TCs. We gained one important thing: security. The political manouvering of the gc's, and more importantly the greeks, who by threat managed to get southern cyprus into the eu has changed the whole game to our disadvantage. While the interests of the TRNC and Turkey overlap to a large degree, they are not identical, and the gc's are doing a devious job of using the eu to highlight where TRNC and RoT interests do not overlap. And let's face it: the RoT cannot work miracles. Despite subtle and overt threats, they could not prevent southern cyprus being admitted to the EU, could not stop offshore oil & gas exploration rights being sold to foreign investors by the gc's, etc etc.



Jimmyboy63


Joined: 16/03/2009
Posts: 400

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 11:27

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Message 37 of 49 in Discussion

Mess 35 There is a world of difference between holiday Brits and permanent Brits



Don't understand this statement, you pay the same money for a property whether it be used as a holiday home or permanent recidence.

Everyone who bought a property in NC new there could be potential problem's regarding ownership,land...ect

that's why the price was 2-3 times less than anywhere else in the Med....I still think long term it is still a good investment and please do not worry the GC will not be coming up in bus load's to reclaim there land......pig's may fly first.....you may have to pay some compensation,which will be decided in the future.



In the meantime try not too worry too much and enjoy your life in NC



ozzieTC


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 11:38

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Message 38 of 49 in Discussion

I am in the camp that believes that GC land should not have been sold. I am worried that foreign buyers were inticed partly to act as a political negotiating tactic - something along the lines of "we'll hand back land illegally occupied by rich foreigners, but we'll keep land used by poor TCs". (and yes, ok, the "rich foreigners" image I have in my mind may not be so accurate). The gcs would be under serious pressure if they did not accept such a deal.



Also, for foreign investors/visitors, what the eu deems illegal is pretty much reality, so the widespread "illegal" selling of gc land carries the risk of giving the TRNC a bad reputation - the reputation of the kind of place you will be robbed blind, and not the kind of place you would like to visit, do business in, or retire in.



Worse - newspapers and official gc propaganda use phrases like "land belonging to gc refugees" which probably evokes palestine-like images in people's minds, which couldn't be further from the truth.



ozzieTC


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 11:48

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Message 39 of 49 in Discussion

As for handing land back - I don't think so. We're a long way from that. A fundamental principle of equity law in the common law world (and perhaps elsewhere, I don't know) is that he who seeks an equitable remedy should come with clean hands. Given the reality of the situation, how much pre-74 land do you think the gc's reasonably expect to get back? I would say they would be happy with say 20%, obviously they will go for the best land, and they will ask for more than 20% but they could be bargained down. However, in the eyes of the EU legal system, we have soiled our hands by illegally selling land "owned" by the gcs. The gcs will be in much less mood (and under less pressure) to negotiate, and will resort (and have already resorted!) to legalistic attacks, where they currently have an advantage thanks to their EU membership



While the gcs say that they will not accept a two state solution, in reality they will. As long as they get something back for "their" land in the TRNC [cont]



ozzieTC


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 11:58

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Message 40 of 49 in Discussion

[cont]



they will accept a largely autonomous TRNC in the north. The only deal that would work is one under which TCs have almost complete political autonomy from the gc government. The advantages are that there would be a massive infusion of EU aid and development assistance, TCs would be EU citizens (and be able to use EU legislative apparatus against the gc government - right now, the only option is the ECHR). The downside is that some (like I said, maybe 20%) land will have to be handed back (who will be the unlucky ones? gee I wonder) and of course we will lose the protection of the Turkish military.



The alternative is the status quo - a de facto partition (or annexation by Turkey; pretty much the same thing) - neither will be accepted internationally. Given how much I trust gc's, the correct approach is certainly not clear to me.



ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 12:00

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Message 41 of 49 in Discussion

Message 39



ozzieTC, a well written piece



I am very concerned that foreign investors will be the sacrificial lambs in the negotiations. We are dependent on the TC's defending us but we have had very little confirmation in way of assurances. It is believed that foreign investors account 40% of the TC income but I don't think TC's see this link. Why should they, we are aliens (this is always an interesting term, people don't have much affection for aliens).



Yes the GC's play the poor pauper game very well, but they could not been in the position they are in now without a substantial level of wealth generateing a feeling of ascendency. It just shows how blind the average European politician is.



ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 12:04

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Message 42 of 49 in Discussion

msge 41



yes you have soiled your hands by selling GC land but did you have any choice. How else could you have survived?



ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 12:07

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Message 43 of 49 in Discussion

msge 41



in your opinion what 20% will be given away? Presumably i will be in blocks not patches. I believe that the GC's real goal is that of Kyrenia?



Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 12:25

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Message 44 of 49 in Discussion

Most of the time all we hear from you part-timers is complaints about the TRNC: rip offs, rubbish, and animal rights.

I am not worried about the Orams case, personally, I shall live here and die here. But the whole dirty game being played out here, by the international community, should have every fair-minded citizen of the world up in arms.



Troodo.



Ozzie.

To discriminate between one type of citizen over another violates the very basis of EU law. Tell your TC brothers that they will also lose their land, the GCs will hold no prisoners.



dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 12:40

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Message 45 of 49 in Discussion

Just keep it coming ozzie nc, dont be put off by a few on this forum, every one should be able to have their say, so long as its helpfull and makes every one aware of what could happen.

This forum has some that like to dominate any one that has a bit of 'savo'.

So welcome ozzie tc, I for one, like to have any info regarding issues, sometimes they are of little importance, but mostly there is some grain of truth for us all to digest.



ozzieTC


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 12:53

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Message 46 of 49 in Discussion

ilovecyprus: I imagine kyrenia will always remain TRNC heartland. There will have to be a negotiated compensation for former owners of property in Kyrenia, and perhaps a gc minority would be allowed to reside there (Annan plan allowed for a gc minority in the TRNC I believe) As far as towns go, I imagine Gzelyurt(morphou) and Gazimağusa(famagusta) are realistic aims for the gc's, since they are close to the current demarcation line, which would probably move. Possibly some kind of gc enclave at Dipkarpaz as well. The gc and TC parts of the island would need to be contiguous, except maybe for the aforementioned gc exclave and Erenky, which would presumably remain a part of the TRNC.



ozzieTC


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 13:02

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Message 47 of 49 in Discussion

Troodo: I believe that you are right, in order to be acceptable to the EU, a settlement cannot discriminate against some EU citizens. This is separate to the land ownership issue - not everyone will get their land back, some will be compensated. And if they want to buy land in a particular town, they will be free to. But certain parts of Cyprus will be governed by the TRNC, and certain parts by the gc's. A gc will theoretically be free to buy and live in a future TRNC state, likewise for a TC in the south. Think Switzerland - a german speaker can live in the french or italian cantons if he chooses, but each canton has its own government. The gc's might like to take no prisoners, but they don't hold all the aces despite what they would like to think. The only settlement that will work is one under which both sides gain more than they lose, and gain and lose a fair amount. The Orams case, etc, is an attempt by the gc's to change what is deemed "fair" in their favour.



ozzieTC


Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 13:19

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Message 48 of 49 in Discussion

ilovecyprus (msg 43): I believe that for propaganda purposes the gc's offered to allow trade through gc ports after the annan plan. They can argue that the TC's had legitimate ways to improve their economy but chose to sell of gc land instead. Also, the gc's attempt to claim the moral high ground by stating that they're collecting rent on behalf of TC owners of expropriated land in the south, and that the rent is supposedly going into a fund that will supposedly be paid to the legitimate owners once a settlement is reached. It seems to me that the tactic is again to drive a wedge between the TCs and Turkey by showing the TCs what they are missing out on due to Turkey blocking a political settlement. They also rely on the fact that they are the "recognised" government, and they have the supposed legal right to acquire land for public use. The GCs know well their rights, but they would be well advised to brush up on their responsibilities as well.



cypwine


Joined: 09/05/2009
Posts: 177

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 16:02

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Message 49 of 49 in Discussion

there was a good post by arbee on here earlier that i was going to reply to , seems to have dissapeared!!!!



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