Title deeds query

NatAless



Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 789

Message Posted:
17/05/2009 08:43

What if you buy a re-sale property that already has the deeds in the buyer's name and just needs changing to yours and they are TRNC freehold deeds? This is less worrying, cheaper and faster no?! Or does it take just as long to change the deeds' name and to you have to buy new deeds each time???



Thanks



Natx

biglugs


Joined: 02/10/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
17/05/2009 08:49

been in my house 2 years still no ptp it was a resale

kavenkoy


Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 1787

Message Posted:
17/05/2009 08:51

hi nat



Think you still need permission to purchase (which can take a year).

The title will still be exchange title or built on esdeager land ?



dont worry so is most of north ,get yourself a good advocate and you want to buy be open minded and research the pros and conns ,dont listen to all the doom and gloom



hope it works out well for you



kav

NatAless



Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 789

Message Posted:
17/05/2009 08:51

ptp?... permission to purchase? & there were aready the title deeds? Shouldn't the lawyer have sorted this out by now or is it just a waiting game?

NatAless



Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 789

Message Posted:
17/05/2009 08:54

Thanks Kav,

I understand so it's the permission to purchase that can hold things up, I am researching lawyers at the moment! Natx

kavenkoy


Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 1787

Message Posted:
17/05/2009 09:59

nat



to speed things up i think you can get your police criminal records from uk (contact your local force web site and look up) you can download the form and then send it to disclosure officer etc etc .



researching lawyers is where the fun starts lol.



kav

NatAless



Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 789

Message Posted:
17/05/2009 10:28

mmm!!!! Thanks for the tip!

Natx

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
17/05/2009 11:01

Nat.....although I would recommend buying a resale rather than off plan , you will still need Permission To Purchase,because this relates not just to the property but to you as an individual.



I am not ware of anyone that has had PTP within a year.....the norm seems to be 18 months to 3 years.....with some members on here having waited(and are still waiting) for much longer !



Getting your police records check yourself from the UK will have a negligible effect on the length of this archaic process.



Good luck...and get ready to hear the continuous excuse from the PTP office..."It's still with the Military " !

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 09:15

I am afraid of becoming like mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm for repeating the same things over and over again but he may be right after all



1. Application for PTP is a straight forward process and anyone going to the relevant office should be able to do it himself or get the forms and then get a friend to help you. Delays are mainly due to the military which is outside the control of TRNC, thus it is futile to blame your lawyer or anybody else for the delays. Furthermore, when the PTP comes through, they do not inform anybody, you just have to check it with them on a regular basis.



2. We have Certifying Officers in TRNC who are authorised to certify your signature, no more and no less. Most of them have no legal training at all but I believe that there are two exceptions in Girne area. Most pass themselves as "Noters" implying legal training and it is the shame of TRNC authorities to allow this fraud to continue. By all means use them for PTP applications, transfer of ownership for properties or motor vehicles but not for drawing up legal papers.



3. Use a lawyer if you want a contract to be drawn up but do make sure you ask the vital question of security i.e. what happens if something goes wrong and the ways to protect yourself. This will not be possible if you are using the lawyer of the other side i.e. conflict of interest. A deal that fails is likely to take far more time of the lawyer than the deal that goes through smoothly. Are you prepared to pay for a deal that fell through? If not why should a lawyer try to protect your interests and at the end of the day get nothing? You must be realistic and discuss such things together if you want good protection.



4. A will is a legal document and should not be taken lightly.

ismet

kaiserphil


Joined: 14/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 10:16

"Delays are mainly due to the military which is outside the control of TRNC, thus it is futile to blame your lawyer or anybody else for the delays".

Ismet, are you sure of that? Is it not also a stock excuse for gross neglect and incompetence?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 10:37

Msg. 11

I am absolutely sure of that. It is not really a question of processing the papers, it is a question of how many to allow at a time. The new law passed in December 2008 abolished PTP but it is still with us until new regulations are made i.e. New regulations are expected to come out which will specify which areas can be sold or leased to "aliens". I think the military is dragging their feet on this matter. I suspect that when the new regulations come out, pre-74 Turkish title deeds will not be allowed to be sold at all, only leasehold up to 99 years. This is my guess, no inside information, so take it for what it is worth, only a guess.

ismet

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 11:02

Hi Ismet....it is always good to hear your informed view on these matters.



Do you think this suggestion of not selling pre-74 Turkish Title Deeds to "aliens",and instead only offering a 99 year lease,will apply retrospectively to those who bought such properties in good faith several years ago and are still awaiting PTP?



And...if it does...should the people affected be compensated in some way by way of a partial refund on their purchase price due to the loss of freehold ?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 11:31

Msg. 13

I am only guessing and your guess is as good as mine. They did try this long lease before and when there was a big uproar they stepped back. The logical thing to do is to look favourably on all existing PTP applications with regard to pre-74 Turkish Title deed appliations and apply the new rules only to new purchases.



Compensation by whom to whom? Has anyone paid any compensation to anyone for any refusal for PTP? I suspect that the recent high proportion of such refusals stem from these preparations for the future. The good thing about the future plans is that there will be no need for PTP any longer and people will know where they stand except with EU law. I am sure the Greek Cypriots are busy digging their own graves. Too many applications to enforce their kangaroo court judgements in EU will be their own downfall and the recognition of TRNC will be more imminent. I trust the Anglo-Saxonsfor their devious ways of getting things done. This is exactly what the Greek Cypriots are afraid of and they never had a favourable decision from the UK courts so far. they never will, let us wait and see.

ismet

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 11:51

Hi Ismet.....the compensation I was referring to was not so much for refusal of PTP,but more to do with denial of freehold.

Leasehold property is much cheaper than freehold,so if you've paid for freehold and then don't get it,surely there is a case for compensation,particularly if this is as a direct result of the Govt moving the goalposts ?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 12:00

Cronos,

The government will not be telling you to get any property (full stop). They will tell all "aliens" which ones they can buy freehold (if any) and which ones they can lease up to 99 years. So if they tell you that you cannot buy the property you wanted freehold, its no different to refusal of PTP. Once it becomes obvious that you cannot have freehold, your contract becomes impossible to adhere to thus you can say that it is not enforcable any more (frustration is the legal term) and thus you can ask for compensation from the developer. Whether the developer has the money to pay you is another matter. You may find a local prepared to pay you a reasonable amount and have the title deeds in his name and lease it to you for 99 years. It will be a matter for free negotiation between two people.

ismet

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 12:18

cronos,

i think if you have already purchased something freehold that cannot be taken away from you.

possibly for future purchase's they would only offer leasehold.



ismet, do you think this is in the pipeline? sounds similar to what i heard a while back, but took with a pinch of salt.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 13:02

Firrestarter,

If anybody got title deeds for freehold, it is the end of the matter (except for Greek Cypriots). As for the rest, I am only guessing but my antennas are usually in good condition

ismet

NatAless



Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 789

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 19:57

Hi Ismet,



thank you so much for your concise and detailed information!



Natx

NatAless



Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 789

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 20:13

Further Questions am very sorry!



1--If you're ptp is denied and you have bought & are living in the house can they actually take it away from you? What were the reasons given to people who had it denied?

If you stay are you doing so ilegally? Obviously as previously said above it would be harder to sell but through an estate agent that probably wouldn't mention you're ptp was denied would it still be eventually possible to sell the property to a TC if not a Brit?



3-Does anyone know what the ptp 'checklist' is? Apart from police checks, what else do they need to check on you that takes so long? If you have the money why can't you just buy?!!! Do they check on your financial status/income-work etc? If so is it possible to put the deeds in two people's names as I am not working but my fiance is...



I heard it is just taking a long time due to backlog of ptp requests, is it an actual fact that they do not want foreigners buying property here or just speculation?



Thanks

NatAless



Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 789

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 20:19

I understand Ismet that you are saying the delays are caused by the military and new regulations, but if you have found the perfect place at the right price and deeds etc it is not practical or possible for you to wait until new regulations are put in place as you need to get things moving...

NatAless



Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 789

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 21:07

mmm very true, actually, sounds great to me! I wouldn't mind at all keeping the money in the bank for longer & getting more interest until the ptp arrives ;0) maybe we should then try to fight for this reasoning and follow the advice, just give the necessary funds for the sales contract, surveying etc I say we fight for our (ptp) rights!!!!! ;) sorry, this whole issue is driving me crazy!!! Aaaaggh!!!!!!!!

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 21:13

Krawpy....what you are saying is fine hypothetically but unworkable in practice.



The application for PTP is for both you as a person and for a specific property.

Is there really any point in applying for PTP on a property that won't be for sale to you after 18 months to 3 years?

No-one will allow you to pay a small deposit to hold a property for this length of time.



NOW....if the TRNC authorities stopped this discrimination against us foreigners and issued Kocans within about 6 weeks as they do for TC's,then maybe sellers WOULD be willing to go along with this hypothetical recommended course of action ?

NatAless



Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 789

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 21:25

yes but Krawpy did say this 'this advice will be necessarily ignored' as we all realistically know we do have to give the money & then hope & pray and get stressed waiting for the ptp to arrive it seems...which is not what I am looking forward to at all personally! However, at the moment if you want to purcase here it seems there is no other option?...

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 21:29

There is no other option Nat.....and the latin phrase Caveat Emptor is never more true than when applied to property purchase in the TRNC.

NatAless



Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 789

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 21:33

oh good grief! Well let the TRNC also beware if I don't get my ptp ;0)

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 21:36

Why dont you just rent for the time being Nat and see what happens ! its got to be the wise thing to do in your position.



Cooper

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 21:59

Nat,



It took me a couple of months to realise that the PTP issue is the main and only reason not to buy a property now. In this respect it doesn't matter whether you consider Esdeger or pre-74 Turkish title. Paying full money without being a legal owner in authorities' eyes? And you are a foreigner! Well, my respect to all those who think it's worth it but I'd wait for a clearer picture.

ilovekibris


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 394

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 22:33

handing over money for a property without PTP = madness.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 23:13

Msg. 20



Hello Nat,

I was about to answer your question when we had an expected visitor, thus the delay.

Q: If you're ptp is denied and you have bought & are living in the house can they actually take it away from you? What were the reasons given to people who had it denied?

A: They do not give any official reason when they refuse PTP. The authorities do not mind if you live in the house but what happens if the title deed owner wants to take advantage and ask you to leave? If you have your agreement registered, you can feel easy about it. If not, once you have the PTP refused, you can either ask for 99 years lease and bargain some refund or ask for your money back and show "frustration" as the reason for it. You can claim your money back under the circumstances.



Q: If you stay are you doing so ilegally?

A: Yes, nothing illegal about it.



ismet

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 23:20

Ismet....."Q: If you stay are you doing so ilegally?



A: Yes, nothing illegal about it."



I don't understand this....can you clarify please?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 23:25

Cronos, sorry I was not careful enough. It is perfectly legal for you to stay or rent a property which has normally been refused PTP. So there is no sense in it really.

ismet

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
18/05/2009 23:45

Ismet,



Have I missed something?



msg. 14 "Compensation by whom to whom? Has anyone paid any compensation to anyone for any refusal for PTP?"



msg.31 "once you have the PTP refused, you can either ask for 99 years lease and bargain some refund or ask for your money back"



Please explain are we talking about the same case?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 00:05

msg. 34



Ref. msg. 14: You ask the government for PTP and they are free to grant or refuse. Compensation by the government is out of question.



ref. msg. 31: Once PTP is refused, the sale contract between Vendor nad Buyer cannot be performed through no fault of the parties. This is called "frustration" in the legal jargon. In such a situation the parties i.e. the vendor and the buyer are free to renegotiate and failing that the buyer can ask and sue the vendor for compensation. However, the court may take into consideration the fact that the vendor has offerred the buyer an alternative solution like a 99 year lease and some monetary compensation.

ismet

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 00:15

we have bought freehold and awaiting PTP and our application has only been in a few months so IF in the distant future we were refused and offered a 99 year leasehold with compensation we would be happy, to tell you the truth even if we got the leasehold without compensation we would be happy as we would not be around to see the end of the lease.

ismet, your postings on this thread have been very informative as most of your postings are.

Thank you....

kaiserphil


Joined: 14/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 00:23

Quite right Krawpy! You tell 'em Pike!

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 00:34

Krawpy....in my profile I put occupation as "Hindsight manager" as a bit of a joke.....but you seem to be a real master at it !

It is easy to be wise after the event and try to blame people for their own misfortune.



Many people were naive,foolish and gullible when purchasing in NC.

But that does not mean they should suffer at the hands of a twisted system that actively conspires against them !



I didn't think I needed to translate such a well known phrase as caveat emptor but thanks for doing so.

In my own particular situation ,we did a fair amount of research and thought we were "doing the right thing" by specifically choosing Pre-74 Turkish Title Deed property.

Now we feel that we are still having the rug pulled from under us.



Stop lecturing us about what we should have done in an ideal,non-existant Krawpy World.



Your statement "buying in a country which instructs you to obtain PTP BEFORE contracting" is nothing short of a joke.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 00:37

continued



Did the TRNC govt openly advertise this fact.....NO !

Was it displayed openly in Advocate's and Estate Agents offices?....NO !

Did the authorities stop any sales going through when they knew that PTP had not yet been granted?.....NO.



Suggest something positive to help people rather than kicking them when they are down.

NatAless



Joined: 31/03/2009
Posts: 789

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 08:58

Ismet thank you for answering my questions & everyone else too for your help & opinions, I think we also would negotiate leashold & bargain some refund if ptp were denied, it's good to know you can still stay/rent it

but basically you would nothing in your hands to say the place is yours, not even a contract?!! This is crazy! As someone previously said it may be safer to go leasehold from the start or wait until a better solution comes up :0(

Cooper ref mes 28 yes we are currently aleady renting in Doğanköy, near Girne.

Thanks everyone

Natx

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 16:20

Thank you Ismet for all your helpful information.

I took possession of my flat in TBV 2 years past April and still waiting for PTP

Solicitor told me last Nov. I should be hearing something soon but since then

no news. He doesn't reply to my emails, and if I phone he is always busy in court

and says he will look into it when he returns to office. I have even paid my VAT

and he told me I didn't need to have done that yet.

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 19:06

Nataless - if you are thinking of buying please look at the info on the HBPG website http://www.hbpg-trnc.net/ and come along to the weekly surgeries at Pia Bella, 12-3pm every Tuesday for advice or info.

Phylray - you can check the state of your PTP yourself by phoning the ministry of interior direct on: 00 90 (0)392 611 1127 or 00 90 (0)392 611 1143 you will need your PTP application no. Speak to Seville who is very helpful and speaks good English.



Sibel

kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
19/05/2009 19:08

Unfortunately a lot of people are now in the predicament of still waiting for their PTP's because they were informed by their lawyers that it was just a "formality". If the correct advice had been given to purchasers by certain lawyers, then the purchasers would not be suffering now as a result. Unfortunately BARO's statements that lawyers have no duty of care does little for their credibility or to rectify the lack of trust and problems within the construction industry. Hopefully the new government will take positive and constructive action in sorting out the construction industry, which will in turn improve the economy.



Sibel