Islamic violence

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 08:59

With the latest arrests of 4 men in the us for planning to wage jihad in America by bombing two New York synagogues and downing a military plane with a Stinger missile.



Is it not time that Islamic leaders throughout the world Instructed their brethren that Violence is against all the principals of Islam and their will be no virgin brides waiting for suicide bombers ?



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5363557/New-York-terror-gang-planned-attacks-on-Jews-and-military-aircraft-say-police.html

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 09:11

could the answer be in the Quraan ??



"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them , besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." (9:5)



"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous." (9:123)



"Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (48:29)





"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the True Faith that he may exalt it above all religions, though the idolaters abhor it." (9:33)





The prospect of modifying Islam’s doctrine regarding violence is problematic Muslims willing to make changes could be portrayed as traitors to their religion.



see the link for a good example. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/international/middleeast/11sultan.html

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 09:43

Hi Nige ,, Your quotes are out of context im afraid , I just looked up your references . The first one surah 9:5 , was specific to current affairs if that particular time and not an instruction for the future.



Islam itslef means ' peace' ., there are many references to non violence , non compulsion , punichment of those who commit suicide . Anyways ive been a student of coparative religion for over 9 yrs , If you would like a gentalmans debate on the subject , we could meet , i dont want to make it a public battle on this forum , its unfair to the subject.. I understand your frustration , it frustrates me too .. but its not Islam , just as some horibble historic atraciaties commited by so called christians , is not Christian good day

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 10:13

tommy13



A couple of points, I have not proffered an opinion but am asking the question.



" i don't want to make it a public battle on this forum "



Indeed we can all have an opinion or point of view without resorting to " doing battle "



to agree to disagree is no bad thing.



Now back to the Question.



Is it not time that Islamic leaders throughout the world Instructed their brethren that Violence is against all the principals of Islam and their will be no virgin brides waiting for suicide bombers ?



Time and time again our tv screens are filled with images of thousands if not tens of thousands of muslims baying for blood.



A STRONG CLEAR AND UNEQUIVICAL message needs to be Issued by world Monlem leaders that Islam is NON VIOLENT and Violence in any WILL NOT BE tolerated.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 10:49

Nige......I could not agree more with what you say....all violence by these people should be utterly ostracised and disowned by their clerics. It has to be so! Religous belief has killed more people on this planet than anything except disease....that is fact.

Cyprusraider


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 99

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 11:01

Why stop at Islam? Why not Catholics, Jews, Protestants et al. ALL should denounce violence as a means to an end.

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 11:08

Well this lady was not to happy with reigon....................



bride from Burnley buried alive !!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 11:14

It is pathetic Nigel! You know the saying little knowledge is dangerous - it is this type of of the media and people who simply follow the media without making the effort to understand the subject in hand! I could equally give you quotes from the bible or the torah which also 'espouse violence' as you claim. Just think back to the justification of the crusades!



Those who use religion as a basis for violence is that they are not Muslim, Christian or Jewish. They are quite simply criminals and should be treated as such!



The problem however, is that there are many who will use the violence committed by these criminals to castigate an entire belief system which spans 1.5 + billion people.



Just ask yourself one question what do you actually know about Islam? Do you for example know that the Qur'aan should be read in context with the Sunnah? Do you know for example in the qur'aan there are verses which stipulat that taking the life of one person is like killing whole of humanity!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 11:23

Alos Nigel, why do you pose the question as if you are already giving the asnwer! You ask "could this be becasue of the Qur'aan?" and then go on to use verses out of context to answer your quetion.



It sounds like a bit of bigotry - prejuidice and intollerance based on ignorance and misinfformation or disinformation!



I suggest if you are really serious about knowing more about Islam that you make a serious effort to seek out the knowledge before coming to open forums to make statements of which you know very little save tor epeat what you may have read in the Daily Telegraph of perhaps even some other right wing literature!



You should also not forget that you have chosen to live in a part of Cyprus which is predominantly Muslim. If Islam is as you have described it - should you not be asking yourself if you are safe in a Muslim community?

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 11:28

It is pathetic



I am but asking the question Moover321



I do not film the thousands of people baying for blood in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq & Pakistan to name but a few countries we have seen the massed hordes.



Islam is biggest Threat for Whole World



Is not a quote from any hot head or radical http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/20975



If it is not possible to ask a question without revering to name calling then does that not speak volumes.

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 11:34

Ever tried just reading a Novel Nige !

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 11:44

Look back at the Crusades and who was more cruel and ruthless. Without doubt the Christian

Crusaders who spared neither Moslem or Jew. Horrific atrocities are well documented, and

Saladin comes out of these conflicts far better. What did they Christian leaders say at the time

about all that killing? All responsible Moslems condemn the present day fanatics, and simply

say they have no religion, no country.

A young Turkish girl told me that Mohammed made the rules for the days he lived in, and they

should adjust to the times in the future. If you read the old testament you will also find it far

less gentle than the new.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 11:46

Moover 321....you appear to have tha panopoly of knowledge on the subject.....YOU tell Nige whether he is safe or not. I personally would ban religon of whatever type,the World over. Its just a way of manipulating feeble minds and an excuse for the extermination of those who think another way. Come to the think of it Stalinist Britain is getting a bit like that.......DONT THINK ANYTHING BUT PC THOUGHTS NOW.........WILL YOU?

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 11:46

Once tried War and peace gave up, then tried animal farm by george orwel ................

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 11:51

Now you really have tied your true colours to the mast! Whose calling you names Nigel?



"I do not film the thousands of people baying for blood in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq & Pakistan to name but a few countries we have seen the massed hordes"



So who commited the biggest attrocity in history in Europe by killing 6 million Jews, 20 Million Russians and millions of others? Was it the Muslims?



Who invaded iraq on a false premise? How many countries has Britain invdaded over the last 200 years? How people did we British kill in India, Africa, the Far East, the Middle East? Who sowed the seeds of the present day conflict in the Middle East!



People like you need to study your own history! You should refrain from throwing stones Nigel when you live in a glass house!



It would not surprise me that if you were still living in the UK you would support the likes of the BNP - you probablyy still do! It is the non-thinking persons way of being patriotic!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 12:01

Clarets - religion is an individual choice - just as being an agnostic or an athiest is!



I know ignorance and bigotory when I see it, read it or hear it!



I have no qualms with a debate on any issue but the least anyone should do is to present the facts in a balanced and unprejuidiced manner! Simply quoting other people doesn't make the fact correct or balanced!



Perhaps religion does exploit the feeble minded but then so does fundamental secularism!



The key, if there is one, is not to hoist a set of beliefs be they religious or otherwise on anyone! Let people make up there own minds! That is what living in a relatively free country means!



I cannot tell Nigel if he is safe or not as it would seem to me the greatest danger to anyone is ignorance!

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 12:03

Moover321





Just so m Am making my self clear I asked a perfectly valid question given the headline news in many newspapers today and also on the television news.



Yet again you choose not to answer the question but seek to rake up the past.



In a forward thinking society we lookforward and plan for the future not look backwards and bleat about who did what and to whom.



It really is a simple question and only requires a Yes or no



Is it not time that Islamic leaders throughout the world Instructed their brethren that Violence is against all the principals of Islam and their will be no virgin brides waiting for suicide bombers ?

ataturk


Joined: 09/09/2008
Posts: 712

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 12:06

Hoover I agree with your posts totally. Nige is talking but not looking around him. The Crusaders were mentioned earlier as though they are history, unfortunately they are still about. They have recently invaded Iraq Afghanistan Kosovo to name a few and now they are looking to invade Iran. You only see what the media and the west want you to see.



Look at the xmas speech the Iranian prime minister Ahmedinejad gave listen to how he talks about Jesus and the respect he gives to the christian religion.



The west has its nose in everyones else business including Cyprus. I believe they are the real causes of todays problems.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 12:08

The answer is a categoric NO! But you will only believe that which you read in your BNP newspaper or the equally repulsive Daily Telegraph!



Try doing your homework Nigel! And remember the past, present and future are connected!



You could not be the person you are today if you did not have the experiences of your yesterdays and the person you are today will dictate your life tomorrow! Past, present and future are connected!



But I guess you simply won't believe that as you have not read it in your newspaper?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 12:17

Nigel give me the names of the Islamic leaders you claim are giving instructions to their bretheren? When were these instructions given?



Did you know in Islam there is no priesthood and that there is no concept of a religious hierarchy?



Try not to mix the religion with those who claim to act on its behalf.



Try to understand that those who have committed acts of violence in the name of any religion are basically criminals and should be treated as such!



Try to distinguish between the 1.5 billion Muslims who follow their religion peacefully and a relative handful who seek to abuse it!



Try. if you can to engage your own thought process and not become an parrot for the right wing press and media!

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 12:18

BNP newspaper



Oh you have read it have you ?



I did not even know they had one lol



bnp a legitimate political party in the uk who obey the law or who would be prosecuted.



It always gets my goat when people go on about the bnp and the right wing but do not mention the socialist worker party and the left wing communist sympathisers that have tried to destroy the uk.





in answer to the quetion in hand your answer is no ??



A strange choice but it is your choice.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 12:21

RE msg 12, phylray > Look back at the Crusades <



=> I'm afraid you make (a known) thinking error. The Crusading era started in 1095/96 and the Crusaders were not more cruel in the Holy Land than in their native countries. They were children of their time, living in a feudal part of the world and mentally always ready for - Roman Catholic inspired - violence. Not any longer in Western Europe, but - as suggested by Pope Urban II and his predecessors - preferably elsewhere. Roman Catholicism and its Protestant off-spring has since developed in a less violent way.



It's also an error to compare "the Christian Crusaders" and the one and only, noble "Saladin". He also was a child of his time and - for instance - had his captured Christian opponents beheaded when he saw fit.



Islam may mean peace, but the problem seems that Islam seems to develop towards world peace in a much slower way than other religions.



In my opinion any religion is a curse in this world.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 12:32

Typical Nigel! When you cannot argue on the facts then attack the person!



Yes, I have read the BNP newspaper but I have also read many other books, newspapaers, periodicals from many different perspectives.



I do not simply reapt parrot fashion what I have read. I try to engage my thought process before I comment!



Perhaps you may benefit from the same!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 12:36

Hello Dutch Crusader!



"Islam may mean peace, but the problem seems that Islam seems to develop towards world peace in a much slower way than other religions"



On what basis do you make such a wide sweeping statement? How do you measure the rate of development? How do you compare two different religions over different time periods?



A bit like comparing apples with pears?



I would be interested to know!

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 12:38

Moover321



Do please forgive me if you feel attacked by anything i have posted it is not and was not my intention to



"Typical Nigel! When you cannot argue on the facts then attack the person! "



I am sure the moderators will take suitable action should they see the offending post but I can not see it.





I asked .... Is it not time that Islamic leaders throughout the world Instructed their brethren that Violence is against all the principals of Islam and their will be no virgin brides waiting for suicide bombers ?



Your reply was " categoric NO! "



Or am I taking the reply out of context ?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 12:54

You have chosen to misunderstand!



There is no recognised Islamic leadership in the world so how can 'instructions be given'?



In Islam there is no priesthood. It requires a person who is a believer to apply their God given intelligence to know the diiference between right and wrong and to use the Qur'aan and other texts as a basis for a way fo life!



Your fundamental lack of understanding of Islam is the primary rationale for your comments about it! If you took the time and made the effort to read and understand you would be able to differentiate between those who practice the religion and those who use the religin for their own criminal ends.



It is no different to those who justified Apartheid on the basis of religion and ditto with the Nazis and so on and so forth!



People who are innately inclined to criminality will use any tool to justify their cause.



After all, did we make the case to invade Iraq on a false premise that USA / UK knew to be wrong?

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 13:12

Msg 16 massively patronising....thanks for the lecture! I have noticed the theme in lots of your replies in threads. Ignorance, however, is NOT the greatest threat at all....apathy is and not dealing with religous biggots who go round murdering .....all in the name of God,Allah,Jehovah etc,etc,etc.

The other point I might make .....in my humble opinion,is.....never think you are more important or more intelligent than other people on this forum......it is a fool indeed, who takes his opponent lightly!

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 13:14

RE msg 26, Moover321 > There is no recognised Islamic leadership in the world so how can 'instructions be given'? <



=> Maybe not recognised in the world, but certainly in certain countries or sects of Islam (Sunni's, Shiites etc)? A fatwa in Iran (Salmon Rushdie springs to mind, for instance) doesn't come from the grocer on the corner of the street, does it? And such a fatwa is given for *all* Muslems, isn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 13:16

Nigel! Have you heard of George Benard Shaw? This is what he said of Islam!



"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."



http://www.answers.com/topic/george-bernard-shaw



It is amazing what can happen when you really study a religion - isn't it?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 13:18

Clarets! Thanks for your generous advice. Just remember it is a two way street!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 13:23

Is that the same GBS whose Stalinist ideologies emanated greatly throughout his writings? He may have had a slightly different view of things AFTER 9/11,but as he died in 1950.....he wouldnt know about some of our "small world" problems now!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 13:28

How about H G Wells:



"The Islamic teachings have left great traditions for equitable and gentle dealings and behavior, and inspire people with nobility and tolerance. These are human teachings of the highest order and at the same time practicable. These teachings brought into existence a society in which hard-heartedness and collective oppression and injustice were the least as compared with all other societies preceding it....Islam is replete with gentleness, courtesy, and fraternity."



Oh! Sorry we history only started after 9/11.... ))

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 13:32

The trouble with comments about Islam by those who have neither read or studied the religion is that they are full of facts based on their own opinions!



All I have said throughout this and other threads is for people to engage their thought processes and do their research before throwing out provocative and unsubstantiated 'facts'!



Is it too much to ask someone to think before they type?

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 13:35

How about this one ....



...If anyone kills a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all people. And if anyone saves a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all people" (Qur'an 5:32).



Yep you can be executed for spreading mischief !!



"Spreading mischief in the land" can mean many different things, but is generally interpreted to mean those crimes that affect the community as a whole, Crimes that have fallen under this description have included:



* Treason / Apostacy (when one leaves the faith and becomes a chrstian)

* Terrorism

* Land, sea, or air piracy

* Rape

* Adultery

* Homosexual behaviour

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 13:49

So according to your own words Isam opposes terrorism!



Treason is still a capital offence even here in the UK.



I think if you care to do some research you would find that the other spreading of mischief were equally condemned in the West in exactly the same manner until the recent past - last 200-300 years! The quote you emntion is 1430 years ago - and you need to look at the context of why it was revealed as such!



Finally, you need to read that quote from the Qur'aan in terms of the Sunnah and Haddith! Did you do that? Or perhaps just googled it on the BNP website? Just asking!

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 13:52

Moover321: I would appreciate it when you don't avoid to answer serious questions/remarks. May I point at my message # 28? Thank you.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 13:56

Moover321,I hadn't realised the thread was a "who's who" of dead,Stalinist writers.....one of whom was aknowledged as the Father of Sci Fi ! History didn't start with 9/11,but the world certainly became a different place after it!

You have a penchant for quoting Stalinist writers/playwriters,whose ideologies glorify the evil mans thoughts in lots of ways......are you a disciple of socialist,religious,genocidal maniacs ?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 13:58

Dutch Crusader! You obviously want to be serious but your last comment is anything but serious! Your message No: 28 - does not detract from the principle that there is no recognised leadership as you would have it in Islam! Beyond that I would suggest you go and study Islam with an open mind and may be, just may be you may come out with a different conclusion!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 14:01

Really Clarets! How about reading what G W Bush or Obama have said?



“I’ve made it clear, Madam President, that the war against terrorism is not a war against Muslims, nor is it a war against Arabs. It’s a war against evil people who conduct crimes against innocent people.” — Remarks by President George W. Bush and President Megawati of Indonesia The Oval Office, Washington, D.C. September 19, 2001



“Islam is a vibrant faith. Millions of our fellow citizens are Muslim. We respect the faith. We honor its traditions. Our enemy does not. Our enemy doesn’t follow the great traditions of Islam. They’ve hijacked a great religion.” – Remarks by President George W. Bush on U.S. Humanitarian Aid to Afghanistan Presidential Hall, Dwight David Eisenhower Executive Office Building, Washington, D.C. October 11, 2002



Any commets?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 14:02

Further Clarets!



“Let me say this as clearly as I can,” Obama said. “The United States is not and never will be at war with Islam. In fact, our partnership with the Muslim world is critical … in rolling back a fringe ideology that people of all faiths reject.”

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 14:05

It seems to me that many have conclusions on Islam based on your own prejuidice and ignorance! When you are able to separate the religion from those who seek to use it as an excuse for their criminality then, and only then will you have reached even the level of the beloved G W Bush!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 14:11

G W Bush: http://www.submission.org/George_W_Bush/islam.html



October 11, 2002



Islam is a faith that brings comfort to people. It inspires them to lead lives based on honesty, and justice, and compassion."



September 28, 2001



[I know] that the Muslim faith is based upon peace and love and compassion.



President's Greeting for Ramadan - November 5, 2002



I send greetings to Muslims in the United States and around the world as you observe the holy month of Ramadan.



Islam is a peace-loving faith that is practiced by more than one billion people, including millions of American Muslims. These proud citizens contribute to the diversity that makes our country strong, and the United States is grateful for the friendship and support of many Muslim Nations that are vital partners in the global coalition to fight against terrorism.



Still thinking it is all pre 9/11?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 14:15

Tony Blair on Islam: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1780



To me, the most remarkable thing about the Koran is how progressive it is. I write with great humility as a member of another faith. As an outsider, the Koran strikes me as a reforming book, trying to return Judaism and Christianity to their origins, much as reformers attempted to do with the Christian church centuries later. The Koran is inclusive. It extols science and knowledge and abhors superstition. It is practical and far ahead of its time in attitudes toward marriage, women, and governance.



Under its guidance, the spread of Islam and its dominance over previously Christian or pagan lands were breathtaking. Over centuries, Islam founded an empire and led the world in discovery, art, and culture. The standard-bearers of tolerance in the early Middle Ages were far more likely to be found in Muslim lands than in Christian ones.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 14:16

Still all history Clarets (Ian)?

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 14:22

Moover 321...you appear to have missed the point.Obama is bound to come out with such rhetoric,when he is in the "all things to all people" phase of his presidency,along with GWB in the company of a leader of an Islamic country.......that is just polite.If you cant see that it is no more than rhetoric,borrow a white stick !

I am ,however, more perturbed about your leanings towards doctrines espoused by acknowledged genocidal maniacs......left wing monsters who killed more people than Adolf and GWB put together! What say you to that,my "learned friend" ?

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 14:26

Is that the same Tony Blair,who wrecked the NHS,education,the economy,and followed Bush blindly into Iraq to find the weapons of mass destruction? I heard he was still there.......in some kind of envoy capacity. Thats like choosing Bomber Harris as the envoy to Germany just after armistice!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 14:27

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH.....I love a good joust !

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 14:52

Of course you do!



Not being able to debate the issue you move around grasping at one straw after another!



The fact is that no matter what anyone else says you and the likes of Nigel together with Nick Griffin will always be correct!



I would believe that anyone with an ounce of common sense reading through this thread will see you and Nigel for what you are!



Need I say more?

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 15:14

Re 12

"A young Turkish girl told me that Mohammed made the rules for the days he lived in, and they

should adjust to the times in the future".



Well said. The problem is that no sincere, devote Muslim priest could accept this. And I am afraid there are not many places in the Arab (not Turkish) world where she could OPENLY question the literal, unchanged word of Allah.

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 15:24

Moover321



Please remember it is you who advocates violence !!



I asked .... Is it not time that Islamic leaders throughout the world Instructed their brethren that Violence is against all the principals of Islam and their will be no virgin brides waiting for suicide bombers ?





Your reply was " categoric NO! "



you say

The fact is that no matter what anyone else says you and the likes of Nigel together with Nick Griffin will always be correct!



I would believe that anyone with an ounce of common sense reading through this thread will see you and Nigel for what you are!



I know not what you are implying but I am pleased to be associated with a witty wise humorous and kind person such as Ian.



We unlike you are proud to show our email address rather than post anonymous slurs hiding behind a PSEUDONYM.

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 15:41

im not getting involved in an Islamic debate here , it should be a schorlarly face to face debate , ,, someone mentioned daniel pipes , i met that devil in new york in 94 . I disliked him greatly . Anyways , Islam will soon be the dominant and supreme ideology on the globe once again , weather anyone likes it or not , the west knows this , there statisticians know this , times magazine and many western journals / studies etc and authors confirm this , the muslims affcourse believe this ,it will occur

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 16:26

Nigel & Ian! I am so happy for you both!



As I have said you have either deliberately or inadvertently misunderstood what I had said regarding your question! I simply said a categoric NO because there is no suchh thing as Muslim leaders today! If your point is whether Muslims as individuals should condemn senseless violence then of course the answer is a categorical YES!



I do not need to hide my address, I choose to, becasue it is my right here on the forum to do so, as have many others I hasten to add!



The only thing that comes across that both you and Ian seem to be proud of is your lack of understanding of Islam and your all to easy notion to condemn something which you have neither studied or have an adequate knowledge base. Both of you seem to ignore views espoused by Obama, Bush, H G Wells, et al all of whom have studied Islam and made their comments!



If you had some idea of what Islam was and talked of with knowledge I would happy to deabte it with you!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 16:32

Prince Charles - Daily Telegraph!



"In a speech I made in Oxford some eight years ago I spoke of the dangers of ignorance and misunderstanding between the Islamic world and the West, and of the need for these two worlds to understand better the beliefs and values which can bind us together more powerfully than they need divide us.



For we share as Moslems and Christians a powerful core of spiritual belief - in one divine God, in the transience of our earthly life, in our accountability for our actions, and in the assurance of life to come.



We also share many key social values in common: including a respect for knowledge and justice, compassion towards the poor and the underprivileged, and a respect for the importance of family life.



The West and Islam have a history which has often been closely bound up together. The tragedy - and the reality - is that both sides have so often seen that history as one of conflict and cruelty."



Also a radical Muslim?

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 16:36

hey moover , i have that book by prince charles , speech he made as patron of islamic studies in oxford university , Islam and the west ,, great book ,...... you are well read my friend ,,, mashallah kardesime , ) just as moovers and shakers should be

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 16:36

Thanks Tommy

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 16:37

Mandela on Islam:



"President Nelson Mandela has hailed the prominent role played by Islam in the liberation and construction of Africa describing the world's most frequently demonised faith as the continent's principal religion and as an agent of tolerance and goodwill. He has also praised the contribution of South African Muslims to the struggle against apartheid and to current attempts to build a State, based on equality, justice and brotherhood adding that there are three Muslim ministers in his government" Oxford University Press

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 16:45

Ghandi on Islam:



"Gandhi's observations about Prophet Mohammed, the holy Qur'an, and the Islamic faith to emphasize that his positive, respectful response to Islam was not a matter of political pragmatism, nor a façade to unify Indians at a critical period of their history, but it went far beyond - to a philosophical understanding of the very essence of Islam".



Sheila McDonough, a McGill's Ph.D., is an internationally known scholar specializing in Comparative Religion



http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/IDD139/

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 16:47

moover i have a book ,, ranges from charles dickens , thomas carlyle , george bernard shaw , Goethe , alfonsa de lamartine , voltaire , napolean , list is endless of prominent eurpoeans who praise islam and some converted before they died , but many people do not know , its not advertised

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 16:48

Mandela on Islam: ahh a quote from a well know terrorist



Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. He used arms struggle for making his point. He wanted the ruling British to talk with nationalist fighters – for peace. But British never agreed for a one-to-one dialog and the mayhem of anarchy, atrocity and violence continued for more than half a century.



Mandela ladmitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, and has sharply criticised attempts by parts of his party to remove statements supporting this fact from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.



He also had no problems with the murder of innocent women in Magoo’s Bar at the hand of the convicted and un-rehabilitated criminal (and now police chief), Robert Mc. Bride.



http://www.shvoong.com/humanities/164245-nelson-mandela-terrorist

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 16:53

NBC NEWS: 20000 Americans Convert To ISLAM Each Year, 75% Of Them Women.



Sources:

http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnbc.htm??g=1151784d-66c1-4310-afc2-06ed464eb2ed&f=00&fg=email



The number of Europeans and Americans converting to Islam is growing rapidly



check it out !!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 16:56

Now why would so many want to convert to Islam if Nigel and Ian are correct?

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 17:01

I have not knocked islam, in fact i have not offered an opinion YET.



You seem to have me down as some right wing islamaphobic bigot for daring to ask a valid question.



This is the usual trait of many Stalinist left wing and militant people, I do not put you in any of these categories even though you do quote from some dubious sources.



Perhaps if the same Community leaders that appear on tv calling for action against police immigration and any one that dares to question Islam were to be as ready and vociferous in declaring there is no place for violance in Islam many people would be far more tolerant of Islam in the uk.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 17:05

Thanks again Tommy! There are many, many - including in recent times Anelka (Chelsea); Ribbery (Barcelona); French Coach of Japan team Philippe Troussier (Omar Troussier) and his Wife converted to Islam in Morocco and I understand even Ronnie O'Sullivan is thinking about it!



I hope I do not come across as preaching because that is not my intent!



I simply ask that people, whoever they are the least look at the facts before commenting!



I believe there is a need to separate the religion from how some people practice it!



The various so called leaders of the Muslim world are no more than tyrants backed by big business interest and the global interests of the West. These so called leaders do not in any shape or form represent Islam.



Here's one more for Ian and Nigel:



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1026534.ece



Enjoy and may peace be with you both, Ameen!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 17:08

Nigel! I would make a comment on your words but I think the vast majority of people who will read what you have written about Mandela et al to be self-evident non-sense.



I think you know it too!

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 17:41

who's wife ran a group called mandela united with burning necklaces ??



Pc may wish to change history but facts and events can not be changed.





ould you like the photos of some of the atrocoties carried out by mr and mrs Mandela they are to say the least GRUESOME.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 18:05

And would you like to see what the British did in India? Or the USA in Vietnam? Or in Iraq? Or in Afghanistan? The list of attrocities committed in the name of peace by the West is countless and let's not forget the worst war of all was WWII in which 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians and countless others were murdered! Therefore your argument if you have one is at best futile!



One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter!



I believe all in all you have my perspective on your original thread!



Let people read the whole thread if they so wish and make up their minds!



A leopard sadly cannot change its spots! Or to coin another cliche - you can take a horse to a trough but a pencil always has lead!



Enjoy!

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 18:13

with due respect moover , if u read niges first post , from an islamic perspective , its ok really , he is right that those whom commit suicide will not have the rewards of paradise ... and should muslim leaders instruct their brethern , they do nige , most of the muslim world and their respective leaders know this and teach this , unfortunatley only the extremist element come out in the news and considered the norm ,, the overwhelming muslims are quite aware about islams veiws on suicide ..the very few muslims whom choose that path is geerally condemed by the muslim world and islamist alike ...

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 18:41

Islam condemns suicide bombings of the innocent! What I object to is all Muslims being labelled as Islamic Terrorists and that we should be told to behave by some leadership or other!



Would those who bombed in Ireland and the UK be called Christian Terrorits? Would those who bombed the British in King David Hotel in Jerusalem be called Jewish Terrorists?



The idea that all 1.5 billion Muslims the world over are potential suicide bombers and need to be told by the so called Muslim leadership how to behave is somewhat absurd as this presumes a homogenous population and Islamic ethos.



Most importantly of all if you read through the threads is the unravelling of the latent Islamophobia and the propagation of the same. As I have said, most 99%+ would call these acts of violence criminal! Then why make a whole religion responsible for the acts of a few? Would it be right to say all white men are racists just because those who support the BNP are? of course not!

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 18:43

Moover 321 I have read all the threads on this Item and I notice with interest that you say there are no"world Leaders in the Islamic Faith to give these orders" If that is the case how come when the Supreme Ayotolla speaks to the President of Iran and publicly rebuked him, he just accepted it. surely that says there is a hierachy in the Islamic Religion...What about the Mullah in Iraq who has his own army,I assume he is one of these "terrorists" who use religion as the scapegoat for their actions. If as you say there are xbillions of people who worship Allah in a peaceful way ,how come they do not turn against these extremist who are bringing anger and condemnation on their religion.I have yet to see anything in the media or on TV where Muslims have turned in terrorists to the authorities...

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 18:46

Further, the quotations from the Qur'aan have been taken out of context.



If Nigel or anyone wants to use quotes then it should be in context! Just doing what is a renowned tactic of the BNP which is to quote in isolation gives a very distorted view of a religion which nearly 1 in 4 people practice.



No one can stop him from expressing his views and I would defend his right to do so. Equally, he should be open to be questioned and corrected where need be!



Finally, when all else fails the argument that Nelson Mandela is a terrorist. The man was given the Nobel peace prize! he is revered by all, including many white South Africans who supported Apartheid!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 18:48

Coachie!



Islamic leader is not the same as a leader of a sect or of a country! The religion of Islam has no hierarchy, no priesthood and no single leader or leaders!

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 18:51

coachie , the islamic leadership is called the khilafa ( Caliphate ) , the last of which was with the ottoman turks and was disbanded in 1923 ( i think ) , the muslim world was divided with no caliphate , dont worry we are working towards this ,,, also someone mentioned ayatollah , ye hes the leader of shiites who are 5 - 7 % of the muslim world and has no authority over the 90 odd % of the Sunnis , ( orthodox islam )

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 18:52

http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~springbk/enemy.html



Here are two photos showing the Church Street bombing. As mentioned before, in his so-called book, "Long Walk to Freedom", Mandela says that he "signed off" with this act of terrorism. People should take a look at what Mandela "signed off" with while he was in prison � convicted for other acts of terrorism! President P.W. Botha told Mandela way back in 1985, that he could be a free man as long as he did one thing: Publicly renounce violence. Mandela refused. That is why Mandela remained in prison until the appeaser F.W. de Klerk freed him unconditionally. The bottom line is that Nelson Mandela never publicly renounced violence - and we should never forget that.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 18:53

To answer the second part of your message: "If as you say there are xbillions of people who worship Allah in a peaceful way ,how come they do not turn against these extremist who are bringing anger and condemnation on their religion. I have yet to see anything in the media or on TV where Muslims have turned in terrorists to the authorities... "



Do you know who is keeping these so called leaders in power? Tell me who is supporting the Saudi government against its people? Or the Egyptian leader against its people? How many of the so called leaders in the Muslim world are stooges of the West? How many use weapons supplied bu us in the West to keep their people oppressed and subjugated? Why are the Muslim countries rich in resources and yet some of the poorest people on the planet? Who supported Saddam Hussein against Iran in the 1980's?



Sometimes I wonder if people actually can see anything beyond what is written in the Daily Telegraph!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 18:55

They freed Mandela becasue they knew the game was up! Apartheid could not exist where 3 million whites dominated, controlled and oppressed 40 million non-whites!



Simple arithmatic!

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 18:56

yes moover i see ur well aware of the masonlar and yahudiler and the media being under their influence and direction ,, ur well read , i read the same books

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 18:57

By the way Nigel - have you ever seen what the White government did to blacks in South Africa? Unfortunately there wasn't any press to take photos as all this was done in prisons or behind closed doors! I cannot believe that anyone can justify Apartheid in any shape or form and regard Mandela as a terrorist!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 18:58

But you can see what happen to the blacks in Sharpville!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre

canyavuz


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 363

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:02

littlenige,



You are disgusting! How can you say that the holy quaran is what is making people do such crimes.

Theres something which people, LIKE YOU, always miss.

People's view of the Quaran depend on how they interpret the content of it. How you translate it etc.



"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous."

This was written in arabic originally (old arabic). It can be interpreted in MANY different ways.

You call it "islamic violence"! As if it's done for reasons of islam only.



Let's be realistic. Do you REALLY think it's that easy for a MUSLIM man to not only get into a US base, but to sneak explosives in aswell? This is a US base we're talking about.

So, a more authoritive or "powerful" body would be needed, such as Israeli government services.

canyavuz


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 363

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:05

First it was Hamas going against Jews, then Iran and their "nuclear weapons plan" and now this. Plus many more incidents from the past.

Can't you SEE that it's all making people think that muslims are against Jews, when really and truly, it's the other way round.



Dont believe the media, ESPECIALLY US and Murdoch owned channels.

Brainwashed.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:09

If this discussion has done nothing more than shed some light on some long held stereotypes then it was time well spent!



Did you know that the USA gives $3 billion in military aid to Egypt? Or the arms which are being used by the Pakistani army were bought with the $10 billion provided by the USA?



How many more companies in the west are supplying arms to countries like Morocco? Algeria? Indonesia? Tunisia? Jordan? Are any of these leaders 'elected' in a fair and free ballot?



As long as the UK can sell its jets to Saudi Arabia we turn a blind eye to the savagery of the regime and the endemic corruption. We even stop SFO investigations for so called 'national security' reasons!



The upshot is that you want Muslim people to rebel against their leaders and yet your taxes are going to supply arms and instrument of torture and then you ask why do the Muslim people not rebel? When your prioroty is feeding your family on less that $2 a day - rebellion isn't a prioity!

canyavuz


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 363

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:14

i think it's time for this thread to be shut down. Controversial topic.

Overall, people making comments which they know nothing about.

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:18

Moover321 YOUR VIEWS ON THE Muslim Brotherhood WOULD BE INTERESTING.



Some of their aims are





* Influential Islamist organization

* Supports imposition of Shari'a law

* Approves of terrorism against Israel and the West



he Muslim Brotherhood is a key chapter in any story about the struggle for the soul of Islam. Formed in Egypt in 1928, the Brotherhood spawned generations of Islamic activists, both peaceful and violent,



During the Muslim Brothers' seventy-plus years of existence, there have been cycles of growth, followed by divisions into factions, including clandestine financial networks, and violent jihad groups, such as al-Jihad and al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya in Egypt, HAMAS in Palestine and mujahideen groups in Afghanistan.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:18

And whilst we are talking of supporting corrupt governments - Israel - often held out as a model of democracy is plagued by one corruption scandal after another. And don't forget they get $30 billion in military aid!



It is a country with a wall equivalent to the Berlin wall and there is silence in the West! Palestinians are second class citizens in their own country and third and forth class ctizens in the occupied territories!



Israel has nuclear weapons and has had them since the late 1960's helped by the British and the French and later by the USA! Yet we never hear of any sanctions against Israel do we? They bomb at will. They kill leaders at will. They strangle the economy of Gaza and then blame the Palestinians for reacting!



We live in an Alice in Wonderland scenario - "the truth is what we mean it to be, nothing more and nothing less!" - and of course we have Murdoch and the right wing press to make sure we believe in their truth!

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:20

poor nige , all his posts are generally very good and informative and hes a helpful fella on this forum , i think he may regret posting on Islam here ,, we are in TRNC a muslim country after all , you must have known we would come out and defend ourselves in the strongest manner ... we are passionate brother nige , but dont panic were not about to drive into your house with explosives filled water melons , lol ... No really ,,, you should as moover said read the context of many of the texts you had quoted , you will find the quran does not encourage but condems violence in the strongest manner .

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:24

Nigel!



We can always agree to disagree - but we should disagree agreeably!



If Tommy comes to drive in to your home with explosive water melons be sure I will be there to stop him!



We are peace loving people

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:30

YOUR VIEWS ON THE Muslim Brotherhood ARE ??

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:34

I see you want to continue this discussion!



I don't have a view about them except as far as I know they are now part of the Egyptian parliament and represent the official opposition to the incumbent government! It is difficult to have a view on an organisation which has been and continues to evolve. As long as their work is for peace, justice and against corruption and oppression - that I could support! Violence in any shape or form against innocent people is not acceptable!



There! Happy?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:38

Nigel!



What is your view on Israel? Do you think that it is legitimate to occupy Palestinian land and kill innocent People? Or how about bombing of innocent people in Afghanistan and Pakistan with USA drones? Is that a good way to win hearts and minds? Tell me would you be happy to see Israel attack Iran?



IT WOULD BE VERY INTERESTING TO READ YOUR VIEWS!

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:39

Moover,

Why have you hijacked this thread? What do all your celebrity converts have do with the simple question of the first post? Btw, every religious leader knows the best converts are people in crisis. You said you don't want to make that sound like you're preaching but you've failed! There is nothing militant or intolerant about asking the question of Muslim leaders. Yes, everybody knows there is no Sunni Pope or Shia Patriarch, it doesn't mean there is no powerful Religious leadership. Just put a side your "understanding" of Islam and face the actuality of the question.

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:40

Yes they are a sunni group , what about them nige ,, i read about them on wikipedia just now . seem good to me in general

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:42

Magbs: Hijacked?



Interesting perspective - so no one else is able to post any comments?



Tell me as you seem to have an answer to the question - who are these Powerful Religiious leaders?

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:43

re 74

"Do you know who is keeping these so called leaders in power? Tell me who is supporting the Saudi government against its people? Or the Egyptian leader against its people? How many of the so called leaders in the Muslim world are stooges of the West?"



Once gain, the question is about RELIGIOUS leaders, not the corrupted governments around the world

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:43

oh , i dont support their violence , but there primary goals i accept , not some of their means to attain them , they seemed to have strayed into violence at times

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:47

Magbs: I don't know what you are on - but I don't wnat any of it! What are you talking about?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:49

Magbs: To answer your question about the celebrities it is quite simple!



If Islam was such a violent and abhorrent religion why would all these intelligent and well educated people follow it!



I hope it is clear now!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:50

Magbs: Tell me do you think the House of Saud would be in Power without the support of the religious leaders? What if any is the difference?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 19:52

Thierry Henry is in crisis? Ribery is in crisis? Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens) is in crisis?

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:15

Saying powerful I meant those that may influence and change the growing tendency radicalisation.

Self accountability instead of blaming others?



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1540895/Young-British-Muslims-getting-more-radical.html

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:22

im a young british muslim ,, i was irrelegious and an athiest , i became more interested in islam in london and thats where i got into it , started reading , going classes , mixing with other muslims , etc , i think im a typical someone theyre reffering to as ' radical ', if you strat praying to god and accepting islam you become radical i think in their eyes ,

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:26

Has someone nicked Tommy's log-in ???

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:27

So what's the point? The probelm with the start of the thread is more than the issue of the religious readers! It is quoting parts of the Qur'aan out of context and then generalising that the whole of Islam (therefore all Muslims) are responsible for the actions of a few!



Why blame the religion and the entire Muslim population for the acts of a few? Why generalise? The people who bomb and kill innocent people are criminals be thay Muslim, Jews, Christians or of any other persuation!



No one blames Christians for the killing in Ireland or in Nazi Germany for ethnically cleansing Jews?



So why is the title of the thread "Islamic Violence"?



Why quote the Qur'aan out of context?



Reading or quoting from the Daily Telegraph is not a sufficient basis for making such wide and sweeping statements!



The point is that we cannot go from the particular to the general. Some white men may be robbers that does not make all white men robbers does it? A criminal is a criminal - period!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:30

Magbs Read message 102 - it's for you!

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:31

lol, cronos , that was quite amusing ,, i am a strange one i know ... you cant make heads or tails of me can you ,, its me cronos ... what made u say that im curious , can one not be a muslim , a businessman , helpful member , jobfinder, marketing strategist , etc etc all at he same time , lol

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:34

You can be all that you want Tommy! Imagination, talent with a strong spirit has no limits

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:37

Tommy...it was the "young" bit that got me !



Your profile says 36......younger than me,but not exactly youthful.



Young to me means you still live at home with your parents......which I'm sure as an international jet setting,deal making go-getter simply can't be true!



Keep up the good work.

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:38

lol,. ah i see ,,, yes rub it in why dont you ... im gettin on a bit now ,, i guess was 19 when the whole islam thing happened hence my message

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:39

Need to find you a wife Tommy - ))) You know even yougurt can go off

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:42

moover make dua for me ( pray for me ) yes ur sooo right ,i need .. any elegible ( god fearing) bachelorettes out there

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:49

Plenty mate! Just need to keep an open mind! Talk today was on marriage! Why it is important and what it means Islamically! It is about having someone your life is fully integrated with! Someone with whon 1+1 = 1 and where your happiness is her happiness and vice versa! If you approach it from that perspective then God willing 1+1 in your material and spiritual world will be infinite! Every action in a marriage is an act of worship - so do it with compassion and reliance on your creator!



You know so many verses start with or contain the notion 'for those who think....'; 'for those who reason...'; 'for those who understand...'; 'for those who reflect...'!



We all live between hope and fear! God willing your prayers will be accepted!

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:51

what talk are you reffering too moover , u was at some class of some kind ?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:54

It is Friday today!

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:55

ahhh that talk at Juma , i see ... we were obviosly at different locations at 1 pm today

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:55

Tommy, well said. I am in the same position as you and have tried to get away from the caochies, nigies and of course the escapees from the lunatic asylum. These boys rave and rant a but as someone has said above the number of conversion to Islam (esp in UK, Australia & USA) is mindblowing: by claiming that Islam is voilent of course they are trying to stop and diminish this historical reality. But the narrative will not be disrupted because Islam IS PEACE. We have our violent extremist but no more than other religions or in fact taking a long historical perspective Christians have surprassed themselves in violent expression. A few weeks back a white british judge, a Barrister, a christian minister(Harvard PhD in Divinity) and an Australian Neuro scientist, etc all converted to Islam (Alllah be praised!!) - this is what matters and intelligent people who have seen the light of day on their everyday walks of lif to Damascus - the nigies, caocjies, etc can blow as much air as they like

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 20:58

Yep! probably differnt countries too! Will be in TRNC in late July!

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 21:07

Moover321 : You are a fundamentalist. You don't answer serious questions: I asked you a couple questions - your answer was rubbish. You keep quoting text from the Internet what you think supports your point of view.



Think about this: Not all Muslems are terrorists, but in 2009 (and some time before) all terrorists are Muslems.



Good night, enjoy your Koran and don't forget to read the violent parts. I CAN QUOTE THEM FOR YOU IF YOU WANT.



PS. Every religion is a curse on the earth.

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 21:07

hey fred8 , hey brother ,,, peace and blessings unto you , lets not demonise the nigies and the coachies , we are muslims ,it is not beffiting for us , we should pray for their guidance and not their destruction ...



Hey moover ,, ah i see ,, lol,, well inshallah we make cuma together one day

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 21:13

Dutch Crusader! You really need to sleep seems like you have lost all ability to read and comprehend! I ANSWERED your question and if all you can do is to call people names (labels) then it is your sad perogative! If I am a fundamentalist then there is a part of that word which would be an apt description of your response! I am sure even you can work that out!



I don't need you to quote me the Qur'aan - as per usual you will quote out of context and really it may jsut be too much for you to really have an intellectual debate!



Enjoy your sleep - I am sure you need it - let those brain cells rest as they have probably been over taxed today!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 21:21

P.S Dutch Crusader - it is Muslim and not Muslems! Check it in the OED!



P.P.S "Not all Muslems are terrorists, but in 2009 (and some time before) all terrorists are Muslems"



So what is your definition of a 'terrorist'? Bet you cannot find one that excludes any of the following? What's the difference between State terrorism and individual acts of terrorism? When you have recharged your brain cells perhaps you will be so kind as to address that!



What about the Tamil Tigers? The US troops in Iraq? Nato in Afghanistan? USA bombing in Pakistan?



Bombing innocent civilians with drones is civilised is it?



Heard about the Moaists in Northern India? Or what about the fighting in Congo supported by Western businesses? Ditto in Nigeria? Killing innocent Palestinians in Gaza by the Israelis?



Ignorance is dangerous! You need to know your facts before making such ridiculous generalisations!

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 21:24

Moover321 : I pull out of this thread. You started answering this thread in an interesting way, but it didn't last. Who's interested in your childish quotations from the Internet (words of other people) any longer - I am not. Peace be with the Prophet and you. But I don't trust both of you - he was and you are dangerous people.

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 21:27

hey moover , come on , no point , dutch crusader believes as he said 'every religion is a curse on earth ' let him be ,,, surat al kaffirun ,, let them go their way and we go ours ..

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 21:29

RE msg 119, Moover 321 > P.S Dutch Crusader - it is Muslim and not Muslems! <



=> In which language, my friend? The word comes from Arabic and Muslim, Moslem etc is all acceptable in Latin languages. Take some schooling when you're finished with your Koran (acceptable spelling).

tommy13


Joined: 29/04/2009
Posts: 979

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 21:31

we should try guide people not argue , hey dutchcrusader , your name conjours up in my mind a , large blonde viking man , with horned helmets and an axe . ;\lol , now thats a scarey and a dangerous vision , lol

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 21:36

Fred8..Lets get one thing straight fella,I am not against Islam.I am against those that take the name of Islam as there reason for committing atrocities where ever that may be.My question to Moover was "if all Moslims are peace ful why do they not turn against these people and force them to stop what they are doing.It would certainly change peoples idea of Islam,but they choose not to do this.They can stand there forever more saying they do not condone the violence but the average joe soap will not believe them until they take action .You know what they say "action speaks ,louder than words".I am not an escapee from a lunatic asylum either,those are the words of some one who is angry because I do not agree with his doctrine. There is no religion on this earth that should preach death and destruction to anyone,if they do then those are your lunatics Fred8 not me....

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 21:57

Not all Muslems* are terrorists, but in 2009 (and some time before) all terrorists are Muslems. True or not true?



PS. EVERY religion is a curse on earth.



PPS. * (any spelling in a Latin language)

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 22:20

Coachie, Do you know what is happening in te northern areas of Pakistan right now? Do you know what is happening in Somalia right now? Did you know Saudia Arabia has allmost eliminated the Al Qaede network? Did you nkow that the muslim brotherhood in ........etc etc I can go on the list is never ending as what the Muslims are doing about extremists .... they are doing more than what the non-muslims are doing that is certain. But Alas you only see the world with tainted glass and see "Islamaic violence".

DC .. speak only for your own relion ... the muslim religion is a blessing for us ..and the answer to your question is false .. please go and do some reading before you go to bed because it is because of ignorant individuals like you that the world is polarised. We have our extremist and are dealing with them ...

Izzet



Joined: 01/12/2006
Posts: 920

Message Posted:
22/05/2009 22:26

This thread is now closed. Reason: Thread was addressed and no need for further posts.