what can we do to help the orams

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 18:45

Is there anything we can all do to help the orams as reports in the papers seem to have them hung drawn and quartered.

at least give them some backing on the forums with some goodwill messages.



it must be awful to see that everyone is awaiting the outcome of their case before they consider their own situation.



anyone have any ideas i know petitions and stuff have been done



but a bit of moral support from the expats and cypriots alike would be nice

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 18:57

to many greek sympathisers on here msg1 , it would turn into a slanging match ,nice thought thou , hope they come good and get a fair result , pikey and co will be along shortly to say otherwise .

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 19:01

I agree with your thoughts cyprusairsoft. I think that unfortunately it is too late from a legal point to help them, but moral support absolutely. I'd hate to be in their position. All the years of uncertainty which is still not over must be awful. I'm still shocked at the apparent lack of support from the TRNC government and politicians.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 19:06

Hector,

You wrote: "...lack of support from the TRNC government and politicians"

As far as I know the TRNC government is footing the bill and they have tried to hire the best lawyers available for them. What more did you expect exactly?

ismet

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 19:06

spot on Hector perhaps some of our more influential cypriot friends can make noises in higher places.

thanks rowlo yes your quite right

already had a run in with pikey wont even give him the time of day



does anyone have the orams email but i suppose it would not be a good idea for public consumption because of gc propoganda perhaps goodwill messages to a friend who can pass on??

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 19:09

Elko you are highly thought of on the forums and ideas from your angle

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 19:16

hi martin , their is already a petition somewhere on the board you can sign, i cant do the links perhaps elko could bring it up for you ,

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 19:20

I am not too worried about the Orams case. I expect the final judgement in UK courts to be in favour of the Orams and I have explained this many times in the past. Of course there is a possibility that it may go against Orams. Even in such an event, it will help the international tide to turn against the Greek Cypriots and we will be a step nearer to the full recognition of north Cyprus under whatever name. For a start I expect the decision about Ercan to be in our favour. We have not had a bad judgement from the UK courts so far. Let us wait and see.



As things stand, the Greek Cypriots can bring criminal proceedings against almost every expat and Turkish Cypriot living in TRNC but they are sitting tight. Why? Exactly beause they are afraid of international public opinion turning against them. So they can use EU rules to their advantage but the EU sword can cut both ways. Let us wait and see.

ismet

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 19:30

I am not too worried about the Orams case. I expect the final judgement in UK courts to be in favour of the Orams and I have explained this many times in the past. Of course there is a possibility that it may go against Orams



thats sitting on the fence elko!!!



we all know the eu sword is sharpened for use by the greeks only



cyprus today seems Mr talat is already agreeing to unbalanced power sharing in favor of gc



can you explain that to me i think turkey holds the cars its worked for 30 something years

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 19:32

It will be interesting to see what happens when the Greek speaking Cypriot Apostolides turns up in the Oram's village in the UK (worst case) - to claim their house and land. What will the Brits in the area do? What do you think?

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 19:36

well hans im thinking he might well be told to foxtrot oscar



would be an interesting scenario



cant see that happening but good comment

cypwine


Joined: 09/05/2009
Posts: 177

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 19:44

for goodness sake DC why on earth would mr A "turn up" in the Orams village.... you talk alot of rubbish..Mr A is a very proud man and will follow all the rules to a tee when this court case ends.. i just hope the orams do the same.



You are obvioulsy all worried sick at the outcome otherwise there name wouldnt get a mention on here..

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 19:48

not worried at all see elkos msg but its going to have a big effect on all of us north and south

some time in the future we will all have to wait and see and keep having a cold beer while looking at the majestic views from all angles of the kktc

cypwine


Joined: 09/05/2009
Posts: 177

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 19:56

elko is not sure how the case will end you will all have to wait.. as for the effect on the south???? when the ROC president and the Tc leader end there talks and a solution is found there will be no TRNC or KKTC we will be known as just CYPRUS

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 19:57

RE msg 12, cypswine > for goodness sake DC why on earth would mr A "turn up" in the Orams village.... you talk alot of rubbish..Mr A is a very proud man and will follow all the rules to a tee when this court case ends.. i just hope the orams do the same. You are obvioulsy all worried sick at the outcome otherwise there name wouldnt get a mention on here.. <



=> cypswine, something in your nickname makes me think of the flu. You too are on the wrong board. The British fifth column has its own RoC (Rest of Cyprus) based boards. Bye.

cypwine


Joined: 09/05/2009
Posts: 177

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 20:01

so why DC are you the cyprus-forum???? this is ONE country called Cyprus so i suggest you get use to it or leave.



As for my nick name.. its a reminder to all that cyprus has some excellent wines.

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 20:03

cypwine i take it from your views that you might be in favor of a single country but i suppose with an unbalanced power sharing system your thoughts please

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 20:03

RE msg 14, cypswine > the Tc leader <



=> The Tc leader is called Mr. Talat and for you Mr. President. Take a note, please.



P.S. And it's not "there talks", but their talks. Held there. Got it?

cypwine


Joined: 09/05/2009
Posts: 177

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 21:22

dont be such an ass DC people with dyslexia often make mistakes.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 21:28

cyprusairsoft agree with you on giving the Orams support from perhaps this forum. They both were in high spirits in May, they are a very unassuming couple and do not have any 'nasty' traits that the gc keep harping on about. Having chatted with them, they are so pleased that people care of the horrible situation, but seem very optimistic for the future. Thats all I can tell you, but I am sure any support for them will help, be it verbaly or written.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 21:56

msg 1 , told you , COME ON THE ORAMS ,

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 23:51

YEA LETS MAKE IT A SONG, COME ON THE ORAMS,

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
28/06/2009 23:52

Elko

I wish I could share your confidence as to the outcome of the Orams case in the UK court. I don't. As for the TRNC government supporting the Orams, how do we know they are footing the legal costs? Why were they not represented at the ECJ hearing when Poland was? Where are the NC politicians views on this issue? I've only read the odd comment about supporting TC's, no mention of others in same position i.e.UK expats. It appears that only after the ECJ decision did the government then call together people i.e. advocates, to discuss a response. Rather late in the day?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 00:22

Hector,

Officially the case is between Orams and Apostolides. Both sides have the financial support of the governments on both sides but the Greek Cypriot side are more secretive because it suits them to argue that it is a personal case.



According to EU law, ECJ has the final say on the interpretation of EU Law and apart from the parties direcAly involved i.e. Apostolides and Orams, the EU Commission and all member countries can have a say. Poland, Greece and I think ROC made use of this opportunity. For your information, Turkey and TRNC are not members of EU and therefore had no say in this matter.



As for the final outcome in UK courts, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and indeed the majority expect it to go against the Orams but that does not prevent me forming my own "informed" opinion.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 14:23

I think the news given here http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/17958.asp is a good sign of the tide turning.

ismet

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 15:15

IF someone really wanted to help...why not try this...find 100 people to pay £1k each to buy out the Orams



Then the Orams would no longer be the owners..the court case would have to start again...with each of the 100 having to be taken to court ( some could be non EU citizens )....at a cost of miilions!.....



just a thought?

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 15:23

Stewart,



Fantastic idea BUT as these matters are now "sub judice" the orams would get into big trouble if they tried this.

Think that this is the case unless ayone else has a more informed view.

Mixie

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 15:59

Dear Mixie

Sub Judice in the Uk is meaningless in Turkey / NC....they could still sell.....court MAY take their uk home...but...could not do anything to their property in NC ....this would have to go through the courts again

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 16:09

Ah well. I thought the same rules of court would apply but obviously not.



Do you think that we would get in serious trouble if say 100 -150 people did put in the £1,000?



I hear their house was worth £150-160,000

M

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 16:26

Hi....perhaps talking to them / their legal representative may help?....could buy it in a company name ie a Turkish company with the 100 / 150 people all being shareholders ...money could go into an account earning high interest!

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 16:29

It would certainly throw the cat in amongst the pigeons would it not?

M

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 16:36

It will be interesting to see what happens when the Greek speaking Cypriot Apostolides turns up in the Oram's village in the UK (worst case) - to claim their house and land. What will the Brits in the area do? What do you think?





simple answer nothing.



in the unlikely event mr a turns up in hove it would be because the british courts have agreed and carried out the recomendations of the european court.



have you stopped to consider that there could be brits who would look at it from a different angle.the courts have decided that mr A is the legal owner of the property according to international law. which makes him the victim to the majority of brits who now nothing about the cyprus problem.



in fact i should imagine that at least 90% of brits who support the orams have a vested interest in northern cyprus the rest could probably not give a damn for either Mr A or Mrs O

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 16:42

I am sorry to say that to use an English phrase, "You are barking up the wrong tree"!!!

The Kangaroo court of south Cyprus ruled that Orams a) pay so much compensation for the use of the land, b) demolish the house and hand it back to Apostolides. The second part of the judgement is not possible because they need permission from TRNC authorities to demolish it. So they are persueing the fist part i.e. the payment of compensation for the past years. As far as Apostolides is concerned the title deeds are in his name. So even if Orams sell it to someone else, it does not make any difference to Apostolides. Orams have to pay the compensation for the past years as far as he is concerned. Now the UK Appeal Court will have to decide whether to enforce the decision of the kangaroo court or not. There are lots of criteria to consider before pronouncing a decision.

ismet

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 17:37

Dear Elko2 The point of selling it....is so it will make it difficult for Mr A to EVER get his land back in the future and / or get further compensation from the date of the sale....is this not true?



apparantly...Mr Apostolides is living on Tc land in the south?...are we to assume he is willing to pay compensation to the TC.....would the Orams be right by giving the compensation they will owe to Mr A to the TC who owns the land MR A lives on?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 17:46

Stewart,

Mr. A. is not interested in whose name the TRNC title deeds is or how many own it. He is interested in who is occupying it. So even if 100 people get the TRNC titles to it, I presume only one family is going to live in it. If a TC lives in it for the time being, they will move on to another house occupied by an expat. So in reality the government in the south is behind all this and it is not a case of individuals seeking redress.



The Turkish Cypriots have filed a few cases in the south but remember its the kangaroo court there deciding, so they are postponing the cases as much as they can. On the other hand, they decided on Orams during the blink of an eye.

ismet

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 17:49

orams should bulldoze house in brighton sell the land and come and live in their nice villa in lapta where they are most welcome.

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 19:40

orams should bulldoze house in brighton sell the land and come and live in their nice villa in lapta where they are most welcome.



too late im afraid this would be a criminal offence to get rid of assets at this stage nice try



as for mr a living on turkish land another nice try



no turkish cypriot or greek cypriot will ever have to pay for living on land they are the victims of the situation.

both would be compensated should a solution be found.



the non cypriots who purchased land will be dropped like a hot penny when it comes to compensation.



i should imagine there is property in the south that belongs to tcs has been illegally sold on to vunerable brits and serves them right when the tc owner claims his land back .



however there is a huge amount in the north sold on to brits who will not even be part of the equation should there be a settlement.



the authourities on both sides do not care one bit about non cypriots unless you are lining their pockets

Codger


Joined: 03/04/2009
Posts: 153

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 20:02

Am I missing something here?

All this talk of the Orams house in the uk being siezed is maybe a lot of hot air. If the Orams pay the compensation surely the case against their assets is finished.

My understanding is that the UK court can only judge whether the compensation claim can be enforced in the UK as the house demolition, handing the land back etc is beyond their juristriction.

Someone who actually knows the facts please enlighten me and others.



I await with bated breath

Codger

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 21:13

msg. 38

Codger,

For an aswer to your question please read my post msg. 33. You are right, the matter infront of the courts in UK is only to do with the compensation.

ismet

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 22:46

Elko MSG 40



yes you are right the court in the uk is for compensation purposes as you correctly the second part is improbable and impossible to enforce.



is the compensation claim a one off or would it be ongoing if the orams did not stop using the property?

if they pay does that mean Mr a has no more claims if the orams sell the property immediatly.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 22:55

msg.41

"if they pay does that mean Mr a has no more claims if the orams sell the property immediatly. "

As far as Mr. A. is concerned he will ask for more compensation if they carry on using it. The operative word here is *use*. Suppose they don't come here and they don't use it any more. Who is going to decide on that? Obviously the Kangaroo court in the south, so you cannot be sure of anything. The more illogically the kangaroo courts behave the more they will harm themselves in the long run. It is just a matter of time, everybody has to be patient and not panic.

ismet

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 23:25

Lostgeezer give you some honey to make you sweet!!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 00:15

Dear Elko



re your use of "Kangaroo Court"



It needs to be challenged.. if you feel the RoC Court system is so dodgy - as to be referred to a as a "Kangaroo Court" then WHY haven't more cases gone before the ECHR?



I have have tested the" Kangaroo Court" - I was up against one of the biggest companies in CY and found that a well sturdy defence was respected.



You keep forgetting to mention the Orams didn't defend themselves - they didn't take the Writ seriously..



You also failed to mention that Judge Jacks and "Embargoed" point out that the fact that Mr Apostolides is the owner of the land is NOT in question.



The case is now all about whether the writ can be enforced in the UK - the interpreation of Protocol 10 of the Gren Line Regulations ..



Now you and I both know that - as far as the EU are concerned - the UK Court SHOULD respect the Judgement - and if they don't they will ultimately HAVE to..



Why are you misleading folk re the ultimate outcome?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 00:36

re msg 44



>> the interpre(a)tion of Protocol 10 of the Gr(e)en Line Regulations .. <<



YES I'm ashamed of my touch typing .... :(

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 00:49

I have to agree with the logic of mark's arguments



whether or not it is fair that skouris should have headed the judges,

looks like it cannot now be taken into account by the uk appeal court



the orams can appeal to the house of lords and what would they decide?

although it is rather less less than the balance of probabilities there is a chance

an appeal to the lords on this particular action would if successful

badly hole the whole legal onslaught below the water line

and the gc's might then have to compromise on the entire cyprus issue,

something they have had the luxury of side-stepping until the present date!



due to the ferocious cost, complexity and possible negative fallout, it seems unlikely

this one case while supporting the "gc story" over the land question

will return any significant amount of property to the alleged former occupiers



it will drive coffin nails into the dwindling chances of any cyprus deal,

and leave 100,000 turkish settlers in situ

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 01:55

I am also puzzled as to this viewpoint that somehow the UK courts will suddenly change direction and look into the political angle thus ruling in favour of the Orams. Utterly ridiculous. The Court of Appeal has no choice but to accept the ECJ judgement. How can the C of A ask for a ruling from the ECJ then ignore it? As for the idea that suddenly the UK government will issue an order to the court, yet another fantasy. Then there is the idea of an appeal to the House of Lords, on what grounds? That the ECJ judgement was wrong? I don't think so.



Whilst no doubt I shall be vilified as a GC sympathiser, mole, spy, undercover agent etc etc I am sympathetic to the Orams and the situation they find themselves in. I am simply stating my opinion as to the way the UK courts will decide. I think that the Orams (& others) should sue the Turkish & TRNC governments instead for the way the property situation was allowed and encouraged.



I'm suspicious of the motive of those that say all is well.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 08:11

Multiple M and Hector,

Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to explain more clearly what I mean by Kangaroo courts and the role of Acourt of Appeal in UK.



1. Kangaroo Court. Court papers were served on Linda Orams in Greek (quite normal) and according to rules she had ten days to put in a "Memorandum of Appearence" i.e. to state that she is going to defend the case and name the advocate if there is one. If she did that in time, she would have had another 14 days to file her defence. Bearing in mind that her husband was not in Cyprus at the time and the court papers were in Greek, it took her a week before going to see her advocate Güneş Menteş. Monday was the last day for filing the "Memorandum of Appearence" and they did so in English. The Court rejected it saying that English is not the official language which is true. In that case they wanted to file one in Turkish but they were told that they have to fill in the official form and it was not readily avail

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 08:18

ctd.

not readily available so they were asked to come next day. They were in court first thing in the morning because they could smell something fishy cooking up. They were kept until 11 o'clock before handing them the forms. In the meantime, the lady judge gave judgement against Orams.



Normally in such a case, if the defendant does not file a Memorandum of Appearence, the Plaintiff applies to court for a judgement and the court usually postpones it for a few weeks. Indeed in such a serious case like demolishing a house, the court invariably orders the Plaintiff to serve a copy of the "Application" to the defendant before proceeding. In this particular case the honourable (not) judge dealt with the case first thing in the morning on the very first day while the defendant was kept waiting for the forms to fill in for "Appearence". Thus in court matters touching on the politics of the Cyprus Problem, the court in the south is nothing but a Kangaroo Court. They may be fine in other

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 08:25

ctd.

in other matters but not when dealing with cases that goes to the root of the Cyprus Problem.



2. ECJ and CoA in UK.

ECJ is the highest organ in EU for the interpretation of EU law and is even above the Constitutional Courts of member countries and all member countries have to abide by their decisions. UK is no different. However ECJ is not a court to try individual cases and make findings on matters of "FACT". Justice Jack ruled that Orams did not have a fair chance to defend themselves in ROC courts. This judgement stands as it is and only the CoA in UK can overturn this finding. Secondly, UK courts may refuse to enforce the judgement of another member country if it is against their Public Policy or against a few other criteria too technical to go into here. Thus, even though UK has to accept the ruling of ECJ, they have an option not to enforce the Orams decision as I explained above.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 08:47

Just to make it clearer to those who are not well versed with the law:

ECJ did not try the Orams case, they ruled on the meaning of Protocol 10 i.e. they ruled that ROC courts can rule on property matters situated in the north and they can be enforced in other member countries. *Can be enforced* does not mean that *it should be enforced*. There may be other criteria for courts of member countries to take into account.

ismet

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 13:14

very interesting technical analysis from elko:



looks as if the orams should have recourse on grounds of "oppressive prcocess"



to err... the court of human rights!



all a bit reminiscent of the hoo-ha over the poll tax and those pensioners in the dock



had even less of a legal defence than the orams



while I'd accept as hector seems to imply that just about everyone has vested interests,



it goes to show how ineffective the properties commission has proved in dealing with this lot:



while the only immovable thing on cyprus appears to be the 100,000 settlers/new cypriots



...and good luck to them!

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 16:40

You keep forgetting to mention the Orams didn't defend themselves - they didn't take the Writ seriously..





writ was not served correctly



mmmmmmmmmm hows sunny britain?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 16:57

Cypruysairsoft,

I think you have some difficulty in comprehending technical matters. In messages 48 and 49 above I did my best to explain how Orams took the writ seriously and wanted to put in a defence but they were prevented from doing so by the Kangaroo court. Please reread the messages above and if there is any particular word or phrase that you do not quite understand please say so and I will go over it word by word if you point out to me exactly which combination of words you do not understand. Fair enough?

ismet

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 17:03

ismet stop getting waspy i was quoting a comment from msg44



and not being as clever as you elko the point i was making that the writ was served in a way that did not enable the orams to act in time or in a manner that they could defend themselves.



please make yourself more useful and put a spell checker on here for us unducated people.



ps remember what the thread was about and who started it and live up to your most helpful member tag



much appreciated and best regards

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 17:04

ps elko i havent the time to read so much typing a bit like the orams when they were served the writ.



please keep it short and sweet



to much quoting of rules and regs as we know anything goes in the trnc and who you know

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 17:09

Ismet

Thank you for the detailits very good and concise

I'm with you so far but did not they appeal the first courts judgement in the South ?

I get the bit where the ECJ pass judgement on EU matters you explained the alcohol strength case between Italy and Germany but how can they rule on TRNC when jurisdiction is suspended is that another medal for the ECJ judge .

Andre post 52 As I understand it the properties commission was formed after the Orames case and may cases have been dealt with satisfactorily

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 19:26

Cyprusairsoft,

I think I was a little waspy as you put it, sorry about that. After I try my best to explain a point when someone like you come up with a comment that shows complete misunderstand ing what I wrote, I get exasperated but it was no excuse o be waspy. My apologies.



Wanderer,

The main object of ECJ is to unite EU in every respect so that EU ends up like the United States. It was the EU politicians and not the ECJ who took the whole Cyprus into EU without the consent of the Turkish Cypriots. So blame the EU politicians and not the judges at ECJ for such comic decisions. However, in the final analysis they will not be able to rule over the north and it is them who will look like Charlies. Of course, the Europeans know very well how to change tune when their interests dictate. So no problem in the long run.

ismet

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 19:37

thanks so much for this info elko2. I appreciate your trouble in writing this piece

Birdsong


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 20:21

Re: msg 57

The Orams tried to appeal against the first judgment in the south and applied to the supreme court there, but there was delay after delay by the gcs and no date was given. Then the Orams learnt that the gc lawyer had leapfrogged the supreme court appeal and gone straight to the London court. A while later the Orams discovered that their appeal in the supreme court HAD BEEN HEARD WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE. Their lawyers had gone to the court with some paperwork only to learn on arrival that it was the actual appeal so they were totally unprepared. And guess what, the Orams lost. Now isn't that a surprise!! So there were, in fact, two kangaroo courts in the south.

With behaviour like that the gcs should be chucked out of the EU and I can't believe how the English and EU believe all their rotten propaganda about the TRNC.

We should all contact the British media and put them right on the subject. I'm sure that would help the Orams.

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 20:36

Birdsong

Thanks for the details

I agree the truth regarding the kangaroo courts need voicing load and clear at every opportunity.

The property issue will only be decided politically and not by individual actions .

Such skulduggery brings shame on a country its people and its judicial system.

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 20:48

If we knew how much they needed to settle compensation, should they lose, I,m sure there are thousands of us who would contribute what we can afford into a fund to help them.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
01/07/2009 08:45

Multiple m,

I am still waiting for your much valued response about the kangaroo courts of our neighbours. What do you think about the above explanation? Don't you think it qualifies them as a kangaroo court?

ismet

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
01/07/2009 12:17

thanks elko apology accepted hugs and kisses x x



wasnt really passing comment on your msg my fault for not reading posts in order

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
02/07/2009 01:13

I think the description 'kangaroo court' is apt but not descriptive enough for their outrageous behavior. Trouble is I can't think of a more suitable deregatory term though. Were these points not pleaded to the ECJ? I take it they were to the High Court? I'd love to be able to read the legal submissions submitted by both sides. Are those available?

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
02/07/2009 11:07

I think the description "kangaroo court" stinks!



In fact, I take serious exception to it, and have done ever since the scurrilious person who coined the bloody phrase first gave it an airing! It certainly wasn't an Australian, that's for sure!



For god's sake, if you must label a court indulging in creative legalities with some ghastly epithet, and you insist for God knows what reason that it be of Australian origin, then here are a couple of suggestions you may care to examine:



An emu court - scrawny, ugly-tempered, very smelly but quite slick



A quokka court - rapidly bouncing from point to point and shitting everywhere



A duck-billed platypus court - lazy, sleepy, always half-submerged



A wombat court - eats roots and leaves.....oh hang on, that might be for a different thread.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
02/07/2009 14:28

Rottolover, dont take things to heart so much, Elko 2 is only helping us all to understand things, we all get called 'names' and name things to what ever we think resembles something. LOL

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
02/07/2009 14:33

Rottolover

What makes you think it was an Australian kangaroo?

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
02/07/2009 20:11

I have already contacted David Cameron at the Houses of Parliament.

camerond@parliament.uk

he replied that he cannot deal with individuals and also referred me to my local MP, but he can deal on the wider issue of the situation.

So, email your MP, email David Cameron, Email Gordon Brown

There are on line petitions - go on line and sign them

katy

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
02/07/2009 20:36

I see a few 'Bubble & Squeak' sympathisers have infiltrated this thread. If they are so brave and self righteous where is that JCB having crossed the Green Line heading for Lapta? Bunch of whinging wimps! Maybe It's hidden in another Trojan Horse!



Richard

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
02/07/2009 22:46

all jcbs working flat out building in the north lol

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 00:01

The Orams do indeed have much support in their struggle.

Elko is very correct in his analysis of matters to date and I agree that the UK appeals court can indeed rule in favour of the Orams and follow the line of Justice Jack who has already found in favour of the Orams.



This is a civil case between two civilians. It is clearly politically financed and has very significant political undertones.

This cannot be ignored by the Appeals Court or the Hose of Lords should the case progress to that level.

My view is that the matter is certainly against the UK public interest and consequently should be thrown out.



The final result of this case is of great importance to the future of the Island. It is currently affecting directly and indirectly its future, prosperity and its social welfare.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 00:20

Rottolover,

Take it easy, read a description of the Kangaroo Court: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/kangaroo-court.html

ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 00:21

As a matter of interest, how did the whole idea of 'exchange land' come about? How did the NC government benefit? If this sparks a GC v TC & expat spat, then please ignore this. I'm genuinely interested.

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 01:17

As a matter of interest, how did the whole idea of 'exchange land' come about? How did the NC government benefit? If this sparks a GC v TC & expat spat, then please ignore this. I'm genuinely interested.



plenty of post in this forum regarding this.



the term exchange land is land what was given to turkish cypriots in return for the land they left behind in the south.

it was not an exchange of land between turks and greeks.

harryroberts


Joined: 05/05/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 01:18

sorry the benefited from increasing their land ownership from 18% to around 33%

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 05:57

Hi Dizzycows, Hector and Elko,



Thank you all for responding to my lament about the term "kangaroo court" so seriously. It's a great pity that I apparently need to explain to you all that Australians love to kid people, and that my "lament" was posted with tongue firmly in cheek.



It's a serious topic to be sure, and my situation is firmly enmeshed in the doings, but I find that sometimes a little levity is needed (for me anyway) to break up the solid wall of gravitas....



So my apologies to you all for the misunderstanding...I hope in future some of you may remember that wonderful British icon, Monty Python, before taking me too seriously. I'll tell you when I am........

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 14:40

does anyone know if the orams are in nc at the moment?

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
05/07/2009 01:35

I understand the Cherie Blair was one of the legal representative = is this right. If so, why was an objection not put forward about the questionable impartiality of the Greek Judge, with a Greek Cypriot wife, conducting this case.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
05/07/2009 01:37

I understand the Cherie Blair was one of the legal representative = is this right. If so, why was an objection not put forward about the questionable impartiality of the Greek Judge, with a Greek Cypriot wife, conducting this case.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
05/07/2009 01:49

This case has brought about some interesting situations.

My relatives (purchasing a property from Cafer Yucelgazi) were asked by their advocate to complete a questionnaire stating all their assets within EU countries. The idea behind this is so that they can advise them where to put their assets should the case go against the Orams. ie set up a limited company and put the property in the name of a Turkish Cypriot Limited Company as the EU have no jurisdiction in the north.

Nice way to find out what all your clients are worth before you advise them to sue Cafer. Also a good way to find out how wealthy they are so that they can be fleeced a little further and a little longer.

CyprusChill


Joined: 08/05/2009
Posts: 666

Message Posted:
05/07/2009 03:02

Understand that pre 1974 was havoc on the island and very cruel times in terms of modern history.

Previous to that from a British and Irish perspective 1955-59.



Help the Orams by being Learned, from books, historical data and by talking and listening.



Also find out in turkish, my old banger .. whats it worth now ? and vice versa to greek.

CyprusChill


Joined: 08/05/2009
Posts: 666

Message Posted:
05/07/2009 04:26

Did you spot the flag at the final British and Lions tour match in South Africa.



Cool.

euroexpress



Joined: 06/07/2009
Posts: 3

Message Posted:
06/07/2009 19:10

we should all do somthing for orams. but this is not a personal matter it is purely political.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
06/07/2009 20:47

Dear Ismet



re your posts on the Ormas' and my "silence"..



1/ I managed to make it to 2 score year and 10 and the celebrations have continued over a few days.. ;)



2/ Our corespondence on this has been on another thread on this board and I asked you WHY the Orams' hadn't exhausted the RoC legal system - you state here they HAVE... and have now appealed for a ruling from the ECHR.. I asked you for a case number as I'd like to see the case they have made.



3/ I am somewhat puzzled by your explanation of how the Apostolides v Orams' case evolved - as I distinctly remember reading about Mrs Orams' being cross examined in the RoC Court in the GC press... and being "ridiculed" by the prosecution when she claimed she thought the "TRNC" "govt". had the right to issue "deeds"



How could I remember this , if they didn't get their day in Court?



Lastly, I don't agree with your explanation to members of of what will happen if the CoA of Eng and Wales rule the RoC compo order can't b

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
06/07/2009 20:55

cont from 85



Lastly, I don't agree with your explanation to members of of what will happen if the CoA of Eng and Wales rule the RoC compo order can't be enforced.



We BOTH know that this won't be "the end"...



As I see it the Orams' are relying on a political settlement as this case will run and run and I simply don't agree with your certainty or your conclusion.



You claim the RoC are somehow funding Apostolides... if this can be demonstrated this would NOT be good.. I haven't seen anyone come back with EVIDENCE..



The most important thing to note is that the RoC President doesn't expect more similar cases... The truth is that the RoC didn't really want this one -I believe it was PURELY Mr Apostoilides and his brief's idea - it may have won some support, but wise RoC officials will know that such future action can quote the ECHR preference to use the "local remedy" of Turkey - the IPC.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
06/07/2009 22:35

Marky,

Let me put you into the picture about Orams being questioned and ridiculed in the Kangaroo court:

After her honour gave judgement against the Orams in their absence, the applied to the same court "to set aside the judgement". This can be done but before they are allowed to submit their full defence, they have to satisfy the court that they have bona fide defence i.e. to satisfy the court that they have a reasonable defence before she will set it aside and give them the right for a full defence. So it was during the crossexamination at this stage that they were rediculed. Setting aside procedure is not the place for going into technical defence points. As far as the honourable judge was concerned it was an open and shut case and all they were interested at that stage was petty point scoring-something the Cypriots are good at on b oth sides and often forget the real problem.



As you say it would not be good for the GC side to show that it was government funded. Hence they

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
06/07/2009 22:38

were not foolish enough to admit such a thing and indeed they kept it a secret but if you look at the trend of legal cases you can see the clear pattern of government involvement.



After Orams they picked up on a German national. On other cases, President Talat and Nicosia Mayor Bulutogullari are involved. This cannot be a coincidence.

ismet

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/07/2009 11:23

Dear Ismet



re msg 88



As yes, I remember, now..thanks



I have researched some links



http://conflictoflaws.net/2009/ecj-judgment-apostolides/



This explains the procedural events and decisions, cronologically



http://www.wellestates.com/orams_court.htm Makes some comments - (strangely, not updated.. with the result of the ECJ ruling!) ..and WHAT is the "G" RoC ? ;)



Then I found this:



http://www.lobbyforcyprus.org/press/press2005/cywe_140105oramscourt.htm



Which dealt with the Orams' appearance at Nicosia to have the original default judgement overturned.



http://www.lobbyforcyprus.org/press/press2005/cywe_140105oramscourt.htm



Now I find the CY Weekly a bit jingoistic, but it was clear that the Ormas DID get a chance in the "Kangaroo Court" to put their case for a new hearing - and that they had no basis - in RoC law - where they could produce evidence of their entitlement to their property.



Ismet... If there were procedural irregularities then the ECHR wi

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/07/2009 11:31

cont from 89



Ismet... If there were procedural irregularities then the ECHR will find them - in time !



I hope you - or someone can find the link to the Orams' case to the ECHR - relating to their submission re their "unfair" ( their words - hence the quotes) treatment by the ECHR. *I* can't find any.



It would be great if you would comment on why I believe there won't BE avalanches of "Apostolodies v Orams" cases and why I believe you will be incorrect in your prediction - from a legal perspective...



I STILL think a political solution will come first !