The New Republic.........

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 09:47

The new republic which is to be established after the two sides in Cyprus reach an agreement, is going to be a unification of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and the Greek Cypriot Administration, TRNC President Mehmet Ali Talat has said.



Full article here: http://www.brtk.cc/index.php/lang/en/cat/2/news/51341

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 09:49

Turkish Minister of State and Chief Negotiator for the European Union Egemen Bagis has said ‘if the two leaders on the island reach an agreement that is acceptable by both sides, Turkey will support this solution as well’.



http://www.brtk.cc/index.php/lang/en/cat/2/news/51357

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 09:50

The British High Commissioner Peter Millet has warned that the time to solve the Cyprus problem is dangerously running out.



http://www.brtk.cc/index.php/lang/en/cat/2/news/51359

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 10:08

Hi Nige. The article was posted on the BRT yesterday. I suppose that is 'old news' then

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 10:16

no 1 I know it was it was posteed at 17.32 i posted it on here at 17.35 and the comments i received are above !!

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 10:28

Sorry, I didn't see your link.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 12:31

re msg 4



Nige



You were right the first time



"although for me it is new news as all i have read in the past relates to trnc and bizonel federation etc this is a very big step in my view ??"



It is old news - jazzed up to be news - The TCs get an autonomous region within a newly structured republic. the GCs get to feel Cyprus is truly a a nation again..



Now, how many TCs will be accompanied by Turks in this new setup ( how many of them will be allowed to vote) , how many TR troops will be remaining and how will population movement of GCs with homes in the "north" be controlled ?



..and Will both "tribes" agree to any deal?

thetruth


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 268

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 14:28

i hope all troops remain here in cyprus,i would not trust the greeks at all.thay are just waiting for the chance to do what thay did befor......long live the TRNC.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 14:30

So do I....



long live the KKTC as Musim says.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 17:45

Mark said "..and Will both "tribes" agree to any deal?"



The last sentence in Talat's statement is interesting.......



"President Talat also stated that he is not sure if the Greek Cypriot Leader Dimitris Christofias has enough courage and responsibility to put his signature under a final settlement in Cyprus."

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
29/06/2009 21:05

mark message 8



are you saying the tc's really "get" an autonomous region within a "newly structured republic?"



if so under what circumstances would the greek cypriots ever agree to a new republic?



or is this part of your personal contribution for a settlement this last time around?



if so may we assume you would favour a re-united cyprus rather than permanent partition:



but if so, why?



or are you merely quoting talat out of context , a nice chap by the way, recycling his weasel words?



I think we should be told

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 00:30

Dear Andre_514



I'm sorry, but I REALLY don't understand your question? >>are you saying the tc's really "get" an autonomous region within a "newly structured republic?" <<



The answer would appear to be a simple YES.



>>so under what circumstances would the greek cypriots ever agree to a new republic? <<



$64,000 Q.. Especially as Mr C keeps telling them Annan is "dead".. and told us five yrs ago - when he recommended a NO vote to AKEL voters .. but his words, "our no means YES" ????



>>may we assume you would favour a re-united cyprus rather than permanent partition: <<



Cyprus has never officially been de jure "broken".. The GCs must learn that the old model of Republic is broken and the TCs that the only game in town is a new model....



>>WHY<<



Sustainability - "TRNC" will never get recognition and TR wants to join the EU.



BTW I can find a place where I've quoted Mr Talat - can you tell us were you imagined that ? ..and what part is "weasel-like "

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 00:34

Re msg 9



"The truth" ( sic)



The Truth is that TCs and Turks voting in the Apr 2003 referendum WERE happy to vote for all but 950 troops to leave..and forgetting "TRNC"..

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 01:08

6m;



The truth is that TCs and Turks voting in the referendum were under the impression that if they voted yes the UN and EU would end the embargoes and allow direct flights and pan European trading etc.



As we know that didn`t happen.



Guzelyurt for example overwhelmingly supported a yes vote even though they knew that the Annan plan meant they would have to relocate, talk to the folk now and they are not interested.



An opportunity missed.



By the way, not wishing to be pedantic but it was 2004. (24 april)

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 01:19

newscoop is right on the button, if the south voted 89% against the 9000-page annan proposal in 2004

why should they vote yes in the event of any hypothetical deal where they would offered less than then?

opinion in the north has turned against giving away territory, especially as they got nothing back, in '04



...mark you are welcome to juggle percentages until the cows come home, it means absolutely nothing

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 02:23

some points about mark's comments in general:



it is a credit to him that he does not blindly swallow every gc cliche

although he is firmly on their side rather than impartial as he may have us believe



my waspish comments about talat's supposed conjuring up of a federal cyprus

should be directed more at the uncritical misinterpretation of the story at the top

noneless mark stands condemned (and happily so?) in putting together a federal cyprus

as an excercise in virtual reality, rather than simply de jure in dusty halls elsewhere



the cyprus lands he he is juggling with (in the guise of "mister 27 per cent")

are not the balls of his theatrical alter ego, but the daily lives and overall security

of thousands who more than ever distrust this particular set of greeks bearing gifts

whom nobody but nobody will reward with offers of trnc territory this time around:



trust me

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 09:49

Well said Andre.



Troodo

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 18:16

re msg 15



YES, April 200FOUR .. my "bad".. april 2003 was when TR ordered Mr Denktash to open the gates - as a TC had successfully proved that TR was restricting his right of freedom of movement.



YES, an opportunity missed..



re msg 18/9

Andre_514



1/ Actually, it was 75% - not 89% of GCs who voted NO to Annan !



2/ So WHO is jiggling percentages.. ?



3/ I'd be the last person to say it will be an easy "sell" - especially as some of the players from 2004 hold positions of govt in the "rump" RoC and advised a NO vote..



But, as I keep saying, if Ireland can d it....

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 21:45

as I typed this remark about juggling figures I realized I was doing exactly that!



actually I thought it was er... 86 percent gc's voting "no"

but it will be impossible to tie the gc's into any deal unless it really appeals to them:

while handing over guzelyurt has gone out fashion in the north like last week's loaf



in contrast to ireland (the sinai/camp david accords too for that matter),

I remain to be convinced that both sides in cyprus are truly ready for any deal...

to negociate "before" there is a broad consensus on the shape of any agreement

is characteristic of an oriental bazaar and has no relationship to serious diplomacy



you tried to "sell" the 2004 deal yourself but in the east med I'm 100% sure the locals

are street clever enough to sense immediately what they do like and what they don't,

rather like the summer 2009 michael jackson concerts at london's O2 arena,

I'm afraid the 2004 annan proposals for cyprus are one of history's great "what ifs"

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 22:13

Dear Andre_514



>>actually I thought it was er... 86 percent gc's voting "no" <<



I think your wishful thinking is clouding you judgement ;)



http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmfaff/113/113we34.htm







"Although more GCs than TCs voted affirmatively, there was a 75% "No" vote in the south among the numerically far more populous GCs. "





YES, a deal will be hard to sell to either side, but there's nothing like the promise of cash - in a recession - to sweeten deals... ;)

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
30/06/2009 23:34

mark,



the point I was making is any deal can be sold to either side,

provided they want its terms in the first place!



in advertising/marketing strategies, there is a spectrum of saleability

for example it is comparitively easy to influence a person about a non-essential,

like for example which brand of toothpaste to buy or what breakfast cereal

but how you vote, your basic attitudes and where the kids should go to school:

with such fundamentals it is very difficult to shift opinion by mere persuasion



it is even more complicated than this in the case of cyprus:

greek cypriots are largely in denial that they lost the north for ever

while some turkish cypriots' memories are filled with images of gc opression



the powerful emotions in each community are more compelling than cash:

for cypriot turks, security and pride

for greek cypriots, the dream they never really lost what they did lose*



* although there is a corrective operation in japan specially for the ladies

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
01/07/2009 16:32

further to the above:



ah...



but there is a broad consensus on a draft agreement to settle the cyprus dispute!

many ex-pats and supporters of this forum both civilized and rational to a fault,

have sketched out the bare bones of a deal "as if" they were gc's or cypriot turks

which involves fair play, live and let live and cash compensation for all dispossesed

only problem is the darned cypriots don't seem to think much like we tell them to!



and um...

there is already a peace agreement, that has worked very well indeed for many years:

this is the 1974 armistice, successful in keeping the hostile communities safely apart

with a very hesitant but gradual loosening of the barricades between the two peoples

much along the lines of "tear down that wall mr denktash" (didn't he do well?)

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
01/07/2009 21:47

message 21:



mark you say "I think your wishfull thinking is clouding your judgement"



why on earth would I have wanted gc's to have voted "no" to annan?

annan looks to have been a chance for an accord with the south, a good idea in principal

but showing some humility as a non-cypriot it is hardly for me to tell them what to do!



I think you are spuriously trying to tie me up in "nots" and tag my name to things like:



not any reunification (I'm in favour, just don't believe the gc's will permit bizonalism, why should they?)

not any agreement with the south (as you in the role of mr 27 percent know is increasingly far-fetched)

not a friendly relationship between the two cyprus (the ugly sister one and the charming ciderella one)



I'd wish cypriots every success if some deal is really "in the bag"

but I believe those "talking up" a deal in the absence of any anouncement whatsoever

have their own sinister agenda which is more to do with trying to harm trnc property sales

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
01/07/2009 21:50

It is very evident that the population of the TRNC has, like the UK and many other counties and nations become very cosmopolitan in structure.

The Turkish Cypriot element will always remain comparatively small but none the less they are the native populus. It is clear that the Turkish influence is very significant. The British influence has always been present and is certainly strong and beneficial.

My view is that the population of the TRNC will contunue to have a vibrant and mixed ethenticity that is very distinct from their greek influenced neighbours.



This clear divergence of the two populations point very much to seperation and independance of the two regions.

However, I see no reason that the seperate regions cannot act as one upon certain political stages.

It is very clear indeed that the two regions must very quickly arrive at solution to the ongoing problems. The sad continuence of historical differences and greivences only serve to hinder island prosperity in general

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
01/07/2009 22:03

But, as I keep saying, if Ireland can d it....



yes ask the army guys and the pizza boy a month or to a go



same scenario

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
01/07/2009 22:12

remember warren the turkish new cypriots as opposed to the "original" tc's

have become a critical factor in the ethnicity disputes of cyprus

as the gc administration and their flock must know deep-down, it is incredible

to expect any sort of deal that would drum these innocent people off the island,

assuming a proposal actually involves the agreement of turkey!



this is the one aspect of the whole thing I find totally baffling:

keeping the hostility to north cyprus at fever pitch for a third of a century

has only pushed north cyprus into the welcoming and powerful arms of turkey

faster than any other tactic I could possibly imagine...



but then, if I may misquote tina turner, "what's logic got to do with it?"

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
01/07/2009 22:23

martin,



the agreement on ireland (if it indeed hangs together as hoped!)

is basically quite different to any deal that could be signed on cyprus



firstly there was no spectre of compensation/being turfed out of your home/ control by outsiders

secondly having fought their way to a stalemate all sides were actually willing to live and let live



you would imagine that those who think such a deal is achievable any more in cyprus

are either totally naive or more likely playing games: I hope I'm wrong but fear I'm right

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 11:34

re msg 26



Cyprusairsoft



>>yes ask the army guys and the pizza boy a month or to a go <<





You might have missed the reaction of the vast majority of the "people's" of Ireland...it wasn't "praising" those actions - was it ?



*I* can appreciate there will always be some "attention-seeking losers" .... I'd hardly draw your conclusion that it means "failure"

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 11:50

Dear LostGeezer



re 29



As you may know the "flag" on the mountain is near the village of Vouni/Tashkent.. this the were the remnants of Tochni ( between Lima(s)sol and Larnaca) ended up - after "EOKA B" killed the males over 16yrs old.... YES I guess it is a bit of a an F.U.



Most GCs don't know the story - they aren't taught it..



As for the flag incidents - well "over-reaction" would be an understatement - but the bike rally that started in off ( Berlin to Kyrenia - I think) was supported by GC institutions and it was obviously going to be a flash point



I WELL understand the GC reticence to believe TR would comply - and it is NOT helped by TR refusing to obey the Ankara Accord ( part of EU accession process - to allow free trade between ALL member states)



Here's hoping the GR /TR relationship will help both tribe's there can be a future..

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 12:24

mg 29 lostgeezer:



"...it is unlikely the ROC will accept any solution that does not involve a significant return of territory"



exactly what I have been saying for the last year or more!!!



as regards how much territory turkey needs for a base, "mr 27 percent" could surely advise on that score

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 13:16

Lostgeezer



You certainly are lost if you think what you have written!!!!





"Most settlers and carpetbaggers would not be expected to remain in the enlarged southern state. "



Why not??? An enlarged Southern state od Cyprus would be part of the EU and I am free very free to stay where I want in the EU.



What are you meaning????That the Greek Cypriots will attempt to through out EU citizens. It simply does not make sense!

Mixie

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 13:27

Dear Mixie,



I am SURE LG is referring to Turkish mainlanders who were "imported" - in the matter of the way the Argentine Junta tried to import Argentine Nationals into the Falklands -after the invasion of 1982 -and then said - "let's have a vote " - knowing they had ensured the indigenous population had been moved out or out numbered..



LG would (correctly) point out that even TCs resent (possibly) being outnumbered in their own land by TR mainlanders...



If you need evidence of this I can post links..

Harold2555



Joined: 19/04/2008
Posts: 1139

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 14:53

Mmmmmmm



I am equally sure that he is also referring to ex Pats as he has used the term Carpetbaggers to specifically refer to such people in another thread.



Harold

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 15:36

Lostgeezer,

I understand now what you are saying, however, I was only speaking people who are curently EU citizens not those who aspire to that status.



I should advise you that the vast majority of people, your fellow counrtymen, do not appreciate the terminology "carpetbaggers". Before you go all patronising on me, I do know where the term originated and I find it offensive and inappropriate.



Mixie

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 15:53

message 36 lostgeezer:



oh but there is indeed an obvious solution "where two component States could work"

this is the present situation where cyprus is securely partitioned



each state, the unrecognised blockaded one, and the recognised unrepresentative one

are truly component states indeed, but not of a tried-and-failed politically united cyprus,

but on the increasingly integrated economic and geographical basis of an island

where barriers are relaxed, and trade and people can move without let or hindrance



of course "work" is a relative term and nobody claims the present situation is ideal,

any more than each side has adopted basic demands which are recognisably similar



should one community or the other decide to trust the other to represent their interests

I am not 90% but 100% certain that an agreed document of some form may be signed



until such a day dawns it's likely carpets stay safely bagged, adapting your own phrase

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 21:59

Lostgeezer,

I have no difficulty in people expressing diametrically opposing views.



None at all. I do however feel that anyone who has to resort to name calling loses integrity in their argument particularly if they believe that they are right and everyone else's arguments are wrong.



It is the historic tinder of war.



Mixie

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
03/07/2009 22:13

lg,



northern opinion has shifted against handing over territory, if press reports are true:

greek cypriots angrily rejected the 2004 annan plan which included a gift of land

(and I'm not thereby saying they were either "right" or "wrong", it was their choice)

so christofias' opposite number would find this difficult to "sell" nowadays



you may also be misinformed about everything coming out in the wash, eu-style:

turkey is facing insuperable barriers in joining the eu (mostly not to do with cyprus)



true, most of the heavyweight political backup for south cyprus is from europe,

but you will appreciate they cannot send any military force to kick turkey off cyprus

while behind the anti-turkish mutterings of the eu leadership (ie france and germany)

there is a nagging fear they should not isolate turkey in these very troubled times



I still feel calling innocent pensioners carpet-baggers is an own goal

but comments about subsidies and the dependency of the north are valid

CyprusChill


Joined: 08/05/2009
Posts: 666

Message Posted:
04/07/2009 04:47

Significant Turkey.



and still for many, many years to come.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/07/2009 10:37

re 35



Harold



Thanks I see that now.. :(



re 40



>>The ROC joined the club, it has to obey the rules.<<



Hmm I tried pointing THAT out to the immigration Dept ( residency issues ) and the Ministry of Comms and Works ( Telco regulator employees passing competitive info) and the Land Registry - ref EU norms for issuing of title !



Siga, siga.. Yavosh, yavosh..



Don't worry, The UK isn't much better ;)

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
04/07/2009 15:01

re msg 29

-The Greek Cypriots don't trust Turkey to stick to any future agreement that involves power sharing-



why should they trust turkey, turkey always break the agreements and they never stick to their word do they lg,? they constantly play political games like this dont they ? ( i wish they would learn from the e.u sometimes )

of course turkey will try to absorb the northern state, thats what they have wanted all along.



-What I find baffling is the vindictivness of Turkey towards the ROC-



-sealing of famagusta( global disaster)

-desecrating a mountain with a flag ( how dare they do this on a greek mountain)

-murdering Greek Cypriots for entering the buffer zone ( the buffer zone is a free for all area isnt it)

-populating GC villages with Anatolian immigrants (pontos immigrants from the black sea, mostly familieis of soldiers from 74 but still, below the belt isnt it)

- celebrating with victory parades. ( definately needs to go to the court of human rights).

cont

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
04/07/2009 15:10

if there is anybody on this forum that CAN NOT see the facts that lg has stated;

this whole problem was created by turkey

turkey stired all the trouble as so to bring in troops and divice the island,

the greeks suffered and should take everybody involved to court,

turkey is playing political games (mmmmmm) thus why the north side of the island is in the e.u only (OOOPPS)

you probably are a very normal person AND HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT. no need to have you head examined

note; still cant do the blue happy face.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
04/07/2009 15:30

re msg 34



when i spoke of the clensing in kosova, you pointed out that i was changing the subject and that it had nothing to do with cyprus dear mmmmmm,

what similarities do the falklands have with the cyprus issue. now argue your way out without turning back on your words. ( very polite )

the turks were not imported dear mmmmmm, most were soldiers who had been sent over to protect their people. they were given land if they wished to stay on the island dear mmmmmm. simple politics not back stabing ones ( you are welcome to add examples of these). over time their families evolved, yes more did arrive as they found life was easier here than in turkey. they are in government, the police force and have built reputable companies. they are all around you, just look around. what turkey has done is to keep enough troops here to make up population numbers as not to fall into another e.u trap as there are many set to spring

i can continue if you are not bored !

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/07/2009 20:57

Dear Yunus



re msg 47



1/ I wasn't aware that the Anatolian Farmers who WERE planted in "TRNC" - as TCs continued to leave ( post 74) had served in the TR army.... I didn't realise that the TR army was short short of man-power in 74 ..What you say is untrue - and well you know it.



It isn't an "excuse" to say they have lived in "TRNC" a long time.. they shouldn't have been "imported" in the first place -it was a blatant attempt to alter the population balance.. FULL STOP .. If you try to kids members that TCs are happy about that .. do you remember the movement - "This Country is Ours" ?!



As you know it WILL be part of any settlement how many TR nationals are allowed to remain.



I guess THAT is why many hope for no settlement !



I met met many TR nationals in "TRNC" and have good contacts - they know the score..



2/ Lest you forget - I pointed out why Kosovo IS different .. and a lousy comparison.



3/ TCs aren't Mainland Turks - any more than A GC is a mainland

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
04/07/2009 23:02

in 1986 the north side was almost deserted , so lucky the anatolian farmers were here to grow crops, dear mmmmmm. what i say is true but you do not need to wish to admit or you do not know. they were not imported as this is also their land dear mmmmmm, as we are all the same people, its like you telling me why has a citizen travelled from one city to another. population alterations did happen to stop another e.u political game being played. the members are not stupid dear mmmmmm. please tell me about the "movement this country is ours"

we will see if the number of tr nationals are affected by the solution.

why was kosova different, and what similarities with the falklands was the question you are trying to avoid. at least you could have tried to give a lousy answer.

tc's are mainland turks dear mmmmmm, you will never know. the solution will not be as you desire it to be. time is going to show you. i already know you're wrong but enjoy reading your comments