electric meter trips every time there is a power cut help

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
14/07/2009 12:00

hi can someone tell me please if this is normal,last year during power cuts the meter never triped now early morning and sometimes in the afternoon the it trips,the moment you turn back the switch the power is back on so its a surge or a problem i need to check out but if you guys experience the same problem or is it just me thanks

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
14/07/2009 12:15

basheer

When you say the meter trips do you mean the switches in the outside meter cabinet or do you mean the main RCD device indoors on the main switchboard?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
14/07/2009 12:31

The original message is not clear enough for me to comment. Can you please explain exactly what happens? Which switch exactly trips and are there any circumstances when this happens?

Its probably the earth fault switch (Residual Current Circuit Breaker). If it is probably it says 300 ma or 500 ma somewhere on it.

ismet

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
14/07/2009 16:01

its the circuit breaker in the villa the one that cuts the elecric off the villa that trips off

none off the other switches trip

gates


Joined: 08/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
14/07/2009 16:07

it can be varios things some times fridges do it or cross polaraties best thing is turn off 1 thing at a time and turn your out side mani switch off and on till you find the unit that is triping it if you need asistants http://www.braceybuilders.com

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
14/07/2009 16:11

its the circuit breaker in the villa the one that cuts the elecric off the villa that trips off

none off the other switches trip

thanks I will also ask my son to check on the the residual current breaker if it says 300ma or 500ma

do you think this could be the reason for the present problem and never before

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
14/07/2009 16:14

its the circuit breaker in the villa the one that cuts the elecric off the villa that trips off

none off the other switches trip

thanks I will also ask my son to check on the the residual current breaker if it says 300ma or 500ma

do you think this could be the reason for the present problem and never before

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
14/07/2009 16:26

How often or when does it trip? We are getting somewhere.

ismet

vincehugo


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
14/07/2009 16:29

On the same general theme, we have a problem with the main switch (the one outside in the meter cupboard) which sometimes trips when there is a power cut. I have been told that I need to get Kibtek to look at it but they don't seem interested. Has anyone else experienced this problem and, if so, what was the solution?



Thanks,



VH

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
14/07/2009 16:57

hi Ismet it can trip in the afternoon around 5pm and early morning

once it happened at 7pm and also at 5am and 6am

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
14/07/2009 17:39

Basheer,

This is really a difficult one to diagnose without any electrical test readings. I cannot think of anything happening early in the morning and also the same thing in the afternoon.



Either you have a faulty switch (it happened at my son's wedding and started the ceremony one hour late with just one bulb on an extention lead) or

you have a leakage to earth somewhere. If its a motor, water heater or fridge faulty, the switch will trip off again as soon as you switch it back on.



So it seems some wiring in the installation got wet somewhere and normally the leakage amount is just below the limit. It will trip when you get more condensation at certain times.



The only way forward is to get in an electrician who knows what he is doing and check out the installation. He has to measure the insulation and take out each circuit in turn (live and neutral, both wires). Sorry, you will need the electrican with a measuring instrument to do it.

ismet

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
14/07/2009 19:27

Ismet,

I agree with your diagnosis. (I'm sure that that's a great comfort to you ).

Fridges, freezers, washing machines, Pool pumps, Hydrofor pumps, PIR security lights all spring to mind as being prone to water/condensation type faults - and all operate on an intermitent basis - and most of these devices can't be isolated for prolonged periods without repercussions...

However, I have found that the cheap RCD devices often fitted by cost cutting builders are inclined to trip out for absolutely no reason at random intervals!

So purely on the basis of "it's easy, so let's try that first" I would be inclined to replace the RCD with the 'best available' (most expensive!) one that they can get, and then 'suck-it-and-see'.

At worst they will have acquired a spare RCD!

And if that doesn't work, they can always ring Ilker from Gazimağusa who will surely sort them out!

Keith.

vincehugo


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
15/07/2009 21:29

Following on from my earlier message (10) just heard that the main switch at our villa (in the meter cupboard outside) is now tripping out every night at about 2.30. No obvious power usage at that time so a bit puzzled as to what might be causing it. As I understand it the RCB was fitted there because we were originally on temporary electric - seems like it is now surplus to requirements and my electrician is suggesting taking it out. My question is - Is it possible for activity elsewhere (away from the villa) to cause the switch to trip? We are in a quite remote area with a recently installed transformer serving only a few houses. The latest problem with the electric seems to coincide with work being done to connect additional villas to this transformer.



Any advice greatly appreciated.



VH

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
15/07/2009 22:00

msg. 14

The earth fault trips used to be of two types

a) Voltage sensitive and likely to trip even when your neighbour has a fault,

b) Current sensitive i.e RCB which trips only if there is a fault beyond this point only.

Now the (a) type is obsolete and only an RCD is used.

The use of an RCD is compulsory unless your earthing rod has a resistance to earth of less than one ohm. There are other creteria for large installations which is of no interest here. As far as the technicians and most officials are concerned you must have an RCD. They are not aware about the other rule about the earth resistance.



If it trips punctually at 2.30 am, is there anything that comes on at that time? Does it trip again if you reset it immediately? The fault should be investigated properly rather than cancel the RCD which can result in health hazard i.e. it can kill somebody. So it must be taken seriously and never ever allow the RCD to be cancelled. Shoot the electrician who wants to do that. Itsno joke!!!

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
15/07/2009 22:11

ctd. from msg. 15



Since the tripping began recently and seems to be somehow connected with the addition of other houses, is it possible that you have changed your earth connection recently or watered the earth rod recently or even worse did someone have a pee on it?

Here is the explanation. You may have an electrical leakage somewhere to earth but not too strong to trip the RCD. Once you improve your earth connection by watering it or what not, the fault current to earth will increase and thus it will be sufficient to trip the RCD. Just a possible explanation.

ismet

PS: I diagnosed an interesting case last year. The customer returned his brand new submersible pump because it was tripping his RCD. I happened to be in the shop and intervened. As soon as the submersible pump was lowered into the well and touched the water, the earth connection improved and tripped his RCD. The problem was with his installation in the house and pointed him in the right direction. His electrician did the rest and changed the damaged cable in one of the conduits.

ismet

vincehugo


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
15/07/2009 22:19

Hi Ismet,



To be clear, we already have all the normal consumer units in the house with RCD's for each circuit and a master one. The one at the meter was (I believe) installed by Kibtek when we had "temporary" electric. So I don't think there is a safety issue here. My experince of these units in the UK is that the individual circuits should really trip before the main switch - we had a problem once with blown bulbs knocking out the whole power to the house and the solution was to replace the main RCD with a less sensitive one. I would have thought that the one at the meter should be the last one to trip ie the least sensitive.



We have disabled any timer devices (pool, irrigation etc.) but this doesn't seem to make any difference. Appreciate that it ought to be fully investigated but it's a bit hard getting an electrician to the house during the day, never mind at 2.30 in the morning!

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
15/07/2009 22:58

Hi Vincehugo,

Since your house is fully protected by local RCD, you are safe. The one in your house probably trips at 300 ma, anything less is asking for trouble. However for direct protection i.e. protection of your life even if you touch the live wire, the RCD should trip at 32 ma. This should be used locally for instant hot water showers.



If you have the electrician in at normal times he can do a check on insulation values with a "megger" and thus he should be able to pinpoint the trouble. Good luck.

ismet

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 16:04

Hi Ismet this morning again the inside meter tripped of the mains at that time nothing really is being used

it would be understandable if one of the electrical switches turned off but the whole house and in one go,if that was a power cut then in the past when the power was returned, everything would come on now we have to immediately go to the meter box and switch the main switch back on, the power comes on immediately which means there was a surge.

the outside box seems okay which controls the irrigation

I will check under the slabs to see where all the wires are coming in there is no water around due to the rains in the winter do you know someone or yourself that can remedify my problem thanks

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 16:39

Basheer,

I am always available to give good advice to technicians and professional engineers free of charge but I cannot afford to get involved in such work. I would recommend Ilker Kral 0542 858 4631. He travels everyhere and his English is good.

ismet

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 15:34

Hi ismet in April the hot water did not heat up,the plumber changed the thermostate,this worked for a couple of weeks,then went cold again,the plumber came and changed the ailement since then water heats up but could this be related to the power tripping off due to that

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 16:16

Basheer,

"Ailement", did you mean "Element" or something else? If the plumber changed the element and some water is dripping out into the connection cup where the thermostat is houesed, its all possible. Bur once it trips,



There are so many possibilities, the only way forward is to check the electrical insulation of the system and pinpoint the trouble.

ismet

colly


Joined: 31/07/2008
Posts: 297

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 16:31

Basheer,

my thoughts are with you on this one. We had the same a year or so ago. Sparky, who was a good one could not find with Mega and like yours seemed an intermittent fault. Ours was even more worrying as you could feel the tingle sometimes through the taps. Eventually the fault became permanent and the sparky could find it. i was away when he found it so we did not know what it was.

If the fault developed at around the same time as the element in cylinder then it could be that. We tried isolating everything but because the earths were still connected it can throw you. We were told also that it could be coming from another property but this turned out not to be the case.

Good luck

Col

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 17:06

colly i too felt a tingle while having a shower when my hands touched the crome

is this related to my problem

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 17:53

Basheer wrote: "colly i too felt a tingle while having a shower when my hands touched the crome

is this related to my problem".



It is 100% connected to the problem. It means that some electricity is leaking onto the earth wire but it is not enough to trip the switch. On modern installations the earth trip switch works on the principle of comparing the current in the live and neutral wires. If the difference is say 300ma or 500 ma (depending on the rating of the switch) it will trip.



VERY IMPORTANT: Each house or unit must have its own earth rod independent from others. Otherwise if there is a fault in one house and a faulty Residual Current Breaker does not trip, the voltage on the earth wire may reach dangerous levels. If your earth wire is common with your neighbour, then you are in danger as well. Of course if your earth is very good (less than one ohm) you are safe.



All RCB's have a test button and should be tested periodically to make sure it trips properly.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 18:05

I just checked with the people in the Electricity Board about the connections in aprtments. Each flat has a separate earth wire coming to the meter cabinet and then connected to the common earth bar. The common earth bar is connected to earth by an earth rod. Thus there is a single earth rod for the whole apartment and if the earth resitance is not low enough (less than one ohm), it may lead to a dangerous situation as I explained above. I will take up this matter with them at the first opportunity.



In UK the neutral wire is earthed at several places (I think every other pole) and therefore there is no need for RCB or separate earth rod. However sensitive RCB of 32 ma is required to protect sockets near the garden against "direct" contact. Most fatal electric shocks take place in the garden while repairing electric lawn movers.

ismet

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 23:07

ismet, mine is a villa would the problem still be related to that of an apartment, seems i have to back track and note all the extra work done for the last six months,from updating the spot lights from the two pin to the two rounded replacemnts in the lounge, the boiler and the water pump outside however for the power to trip in the early early hours when nothing is on is worrying , I really appreaciate your help in pin pointing the problems ,my neighbours don't have this problem so it must be some works done to the villa, rewiring and updating the spotlights to the later version

I am in the uk at the moment but my daughter is there,however nothing much can be done till i return soon and i have your contact to come over and run a check

in the meantime my daughter will switch back the trip back on every time it happens

loslobos


Joined: 02/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 23:10

You've either got an earth fault or your RCD is ATC (all to cock... old fruit).



Either way, call an electrician who will test your RCD, prove it works or clear the earth fault.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 00:18

Loslobos,

You summed it up very well. It is the complete truth in a nutshell.

ismet

colly


Joined: 31/07/2008
Posts: 297

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 10:28

This is so not an RCD fault unless that it is where the earth fault is. (As pointed out by Elko in 25).

My knowledge is not upto Elko's nor am I an electrician, but a gut feeling tells me you should start by getting the immersion heater and wiring checked and left off of the circuit for elimination purposes. Certainly you should be using the skills of a good electrician, ours came recommended and also works for Kibtec and he still could not find the fault until it became permanent.



What pipework is used for the water in the villa? Elko, do they cross (earth) bond to the water circuit in North Cyprus?



Col

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 10:44

colly,

Plastic pipes! - Just try cross-bonding those

I would recommend Ilker Kral, I've met him, he's done work for me, and I would have the utmost confidence in his abilities.

One thing that confuses people sometimes is that they say "I've isolated such-and-such circuit, and the RCD still trips' - when all they've done is switch of the cicuit using the individual switch (MCB) in the 'Fuse Box' (Consumer Unit). This only disconnects the LIVE feed, leaving the NEUTRAL still connected.

The Earth fault detection switch (RCD - the thing that's tripping) can detect faults on the Neutral line, so it will trip if there is a fault on the circuit, even with that circuit apparently 'switched off'.

A good, experienced electrician will be well aware of this, and not make that mistake!

Best of luck Basheer - let us know what it was when they find it.

Keith.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 13:12

Msg. 31

A good reminder that the neutral must be disconnected as well and not just Live wire. The reason is this: even neutral can have a voltage of a couple of volts and thus if it is connected to earth somehow enough current will flow to earth. So there will be a slight imbalance in the currens passing through live and neutral and thus this will be detected by RCD (Residual Current Device , sometimes called Residual Current Breaker, same thing).



So when you are using a hot water immersion switch make sure that it cuts off both Neutral and Live. Do not take the word of the shopkeeper who sells it to you, make sure it is so. Thus if you use the correct double pole immersion switch, when you switch it off your heater is comfpletely isolated.

ismet

colly


Joined: 31/07/2008
Posts: 297

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 15:32

Hi Keith, I thought they were plastic but do they cross bond at any point i.e. at the stop cock? The reason being of course that you would still have earth continuity through the water. Likewise if no earth connected to the water system then the fault described is likley to originate in the water system i.e. immersion heater.

In the UK if you use any metal pipework in the system then all parts must be cross bonded so you have earth continuity when at it's weakest i.e when drained down.

My money is on the immersion.



Col

Geoff


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 1370

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 16:37

Mickey Mouse wiring, overloaded, needs proper re-wire. And I speak as a qualified electrician, certified by KibTek. Many houses built for the expat market have wiring only able to take a moderate load. Occupiers load it all up with ACs, etc etc - and hence when you get a power cut the whole lot trips out when the power comes back on. To avoid a re-wire (1) turn everything off except one light when you get a power cut (2) when power is restored switch the appliances on one by one

Geoff

P.S.

NO! I am NOT looking for work. I am retired.

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 18:23

geoff,this happens mostly in the early hours of the morning every day and hardly any power being used, at the time no ac's were being used,just one or two lights were on downstairs will get this sorted sept when i am back

but to all of you many many thanks for all the information and idea's and solutions available Bash

colly


Joined: 31/07/2008
Posts: 297

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 23:51

Geoff, have you read all of the posts? He has an earth fault!

Col

Geoff


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 1370

Message Posted:
19/07/2009 09:00

Yes, cud be an earth fault - OR it cud be something worse. Needs checking out by a qualified electrician.

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
19/07/2009 14:14

hi this morning there was a power failure at 5.52am at 6.29 am it came back on so the trip did not happen but at 6.34am the electricity did trip this time and the power had to be manually returned to power

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
24/07/2009 10:08

Morning everyone,the issue with my electricity was pointed to my daughter's room during a check to sought out the problem,irrigation good , imulsion boiler good ,wiring good it seemed for some reason the two pin plug was pushed into the 3 pin adapter the wrong way,with one of the 2 pin in the earth and one either in the negative or live, the problem wont happen again,when I am back in Lapta any two pin wiring is going to change to 3 pin, seems this was the reason for power failure now it's wait and see this morning NO POWER FAILURE!

dizzy


Joined: 28/07/2009
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
29/07/2009 13:08

Contact Mike at Poweryourlife, Catalkoy ,poweryour_life@yahoo.com He will have the answer