Game over for the peace talks?

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 19:24

Ankara won’t give up its security guarantees in Cyprus



Turkey will not give up its right to intervene in Cyprus to protect the island's Turkish population, the Foreign Ministry said yesterday, a few days after the Greek Cypriots said they would reject such intervention in a settlement for the divided island.



Full text at : http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-181062-102-ankara-wont-give-up-its-security-guarantees-in-cyprus.html



AJ

keithr


Joined: 20/08/2008
Posts: 720

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 21:32

Great news.



Lets go with Turkey,no EU,no stupid rules and extra taxes.

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 21:32

Thanks for that read AJ.we all know that the GCs.would just love for the TCs to feel unprotected,well it aint going to happen.we all know that..





Spider,X

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 21:39

Erdogan said..Our interest in the fate of our kin is extremely natural.



They will never give up on Cyprus. Looks like it's all over AJ.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 21:40

Why oh, why doesn't Ankara just annex North Cyprus. Who the hell else are they going to upset?



Richard

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 21:52

Bill



' Looks like it's all over AJ.'

'All bar the shouting' as my dear father would have said.

AJ

andy-f


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 1256

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 22:28

north cyprus is all but "annexed" by turkey , these talks are a sham, ankara knows the south will never agree on the very difficult issues like the land and borders that would stand out on an international map saying TRNC . its just a matter of time now for the two sides to walk away and admit defeat ,

the real players behind the scene are the U.S and they are firmly on turkeys side.

so what will be the out come after failure of the talks ? ?

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 22:32

Msg 7



Like the Jewish lobby in America the Greek one is also very influential and powerful.



Richard

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 22:35

After the failure of the talks which I consider inevitable, there will be a period of no activity and then we can start talking about the terms of the divorce. We will give back some land in exchange for our freedom. Then we can leave it to our grandchildren to consider a united Cyprus one day.

ismet

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 22:37

perhaps the eu, would then re-assess their policy on keeping NC in the dark!,ie,direct flights,direct trade,no more embargoes,universities to take part in things outside NC,oh yes and maybe the odd pop concert or a cruiseliner calling at famagusta etc,etc. I certainly dont want the euro as the currency in NC either.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 23:01

elko says give land in exchange for freedom, he does not say in exchange for peace



there is peace on the island at present, infinitely more so than during the intercommunal violence,

or even earlier when as many as 50,000 british tommies vainly grappled with just 300 eoka partisans



I don't want to sound pedantic but perhaps this thread should instead use the phrase "at peace"

but we can hope the island's peoples can accomodate themselves to a workable agreement

allowing both sides to plan for the future, even if a comprehensive accord is far out of reach



because if this is not done soon, north cyprus will continue to be absorbed into the turkish state

andy-f


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 1256

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 23:16

mess 8 greek lobby that failed to stop president talat going to capital hill and meeting powefull U.S foreighn policy advisors?

dont make me laugh the united states are fighting a war in afganistan and turkey is fighting one on its northern border with iraq all in the name " the war on terror" where are the greeks then?

the five star generals in the pentagon know who their allies and freinds are END OF CHAT

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 23:28

With any negotiation, especially one as complicated as this, there is going to be huff & puff postering by both sides.



I suspect imho, that Turkey has far more to gain by allowing NC to become part of a united Cyprus under the EU.



There are huge legal institutions and laws within the EU to protect both TC & GC rights not to mention the investment that will flood in.



Once Cypriots get used to it, realise there is far more money to be made within the EU as part of a united Cyprus, enjoying an improved lifestyle plus better facilities & infrastructure life will quickly move on.

Jetski


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 584

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 23:33

Get it in perspective chaps..... the CyProb is nothing in comparison to Darfur, Afghanistan etc. It is a mere blip on the radar.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
16/07/2009 23:55

andy-f message 12



I agree with andy, turkey is critically important to the usa,

greece is considered an unreliable ally and of no strategic value,

while south cyprus is a backwater and far too pally with russia



the greek/armenian as well as the zionist lobbies are well-organised

but the yanks still won't abandon turkey for love nor money,

while the zionists enjoy a better reception related to american

evangelist ideology plus the firm belief that israel is a friend to the usa

in a very difficult, anti-western or enigmatic, certainly unstable region



with the eu we are in a different ball-game:

the continental masses do not want any more turkish or muslim neighbours,

european elder statesmen fear a turkish-british takeover of the eu leadership,

britain is more sympathetic to turkey but its position earns a negative reaction



yet the eu dare not push turkey too far and invite trouble on the eu's border,

hence signing the nabuco gas pipeline agreement just this week

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 00:03

Jack,

Mess 1 "Ankara wont give up its security guarantees in Cyprus" the other lot wont give up anything and have never had any intention to do so so surely the talks were dead in the Water from Sept 08.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 00:12

Msg. 15

Andre 514

Very good analysis, thank you.

ismet

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 00:21

http://northcyprus.biz/north_cyprus_FeedRedir.asp?FID=8989



Turkey have got the E.U. eating out of the palm of their hands.Will they wont they you couldnt scrip it.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 00:25

Hi guys, which one amongst those who *think* it's "nearly sorted" is going to put his/her hands to help TR pay for continued loss of use?





Unless the ECHR start ruling that the GCs are also stopping TCs from enjoying access to their properties - or there is a political settlement - the "CY prob " will continue for TR..



That's why *I* believe there WILL be a settlement.. but both TR and the "rump" RoC have a way to go, yet ..



>>Turkey have got the E.U. eating out of the palm of their hands.Will they wont they you couldnt scrip it<<



NOT, unfortunately, the reality.. France / NL / Austria ?

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 00:28

mmmmmmmm



Read my posting on Iceland and then your thoughts.



Richard

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 00:29

Mark,

France and the others you mention will have to toe the line and i think you realise that.Turkey are wanted by both e E.U. and the middle east.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 01:04

Agree with Mark on this one ,Turkey will not get into the EU, By the way neither will Iceland, Western Europe has had enough of enlargement.I believe that given present conditions if Eastern European countries that are in now had applied today ,they too would not get in.



As for the guarantee, Why is it a stumbling block for the Greeks. If as the ROC maintain the TC's will not be abused,then its a paper exercise,meaning as much as a guarantee to be allowed to intervene if the Klingon empire invades.



I also dont know why Turkey needs a guarantee, should be enough for a behind the scenes message to be delivered to the effect that if any ethnic cleansing/killing occurs after a settlement , then retlaiation will be savage.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 02:09

great news, this is the way it will be until the greek side realise that they should forget about demanding and start giving. maybe this way they will gain some trust. you cause the trouble, you get freedom and you demand; doesn't work that way. as long as the south keep demanding, nothing will change. turkey know they will not be taken into the e.u but play along. i think the e.u would do more harm than good any way. was anybody expecting anything different. don't expect anything to change until the greeks decide to change.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 07:07

Here we go again will they wont they will they wont they. There is one thing certain there aare a lot of ex pats who revel in the thought of remaining as we are , ex pats who are relishing in the thought of the good old days returning ,isloation just suits the sack cloth and ashes brigade, they would be compleatley happy in thier closeted world with closed borders and the locals riding on donkeys.

Cyprus needs a solution a fair and equitable one, one that both sides are happy with, both Greek and Turkish Cypriots, if that means an intervention by America or europe then so be it.

An agreement is nearer than we think, be it a shared government or two federated states with some shared resposibilitys (the one that i favour)

One thing is certain, Turkey will never abandon the TC's but neither can it continue to finance them idefinatley this country needs investment , it needs access to world markets and it needs them soon for those reasons alone a settlement will happen.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 07:15

nice to hear from you hippo, i agree with alot of what you are saying,never before has this issue been talked about as it is lately i think something will be sorted soon

Geoff1131MK11


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 07:28

I agree with Hippo, and i think that is a first!. We came to live in TRNC and are guests in this country. Whatever the details of any peace agreement are, as long as it suits the TCs then it will get my full support, regardless if the agreement is not to my benifit.



I love this place and do not wish to leave, but it is the Cypriots who will decide what they want and good luck to them.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 09:24

I agree with Hippo's analysis, message 24. It is quite clear that Turkey will never abandon the TC's, but it does need huge investment and Turkey can't keep putting it's hand in it's pocket.

cypwine


Joined: 09/05/2009
Posts: 177

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 09:25

well said Hippo...

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 09:39

hippo.



as regards turkey helping the tc's it is not all one way

in the absence of any agreed settlement the local big power settled perhaps 70,000 on cyprus

the exact process has been termed "ulsterisation"... within a couple of generations,

the erstwhile settlers feel as much cypriot as makarios was



the two british-style bases particularly akrotiri are pretty vital to the usa at present

and a united cyprus could boot out foreign forces in short order, I'm sure america is grateful



you mention intervention

by whom exactly, in what conditions and for whose benefit, simply to square the circle?

would those intervening be sure of victory? churchill thought he was at the dardanelles in 1915

american intervention, cock-up in iraq... european intervention, massacre at srebrenica

more body bags and for what? I think not!



"an agreement is nearer than we think": where is your real evidence?

when two tribes go to war our supposed altruism may not appeal to either protagonist

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 10:03

re msg 21



NL



>>France and the others you mention will have to toe the line and i think you realise that.Turkey are wanted by both e E.U. and the middle east.<<



You seem to think *I* don't want TR in.. I do ... I just know there will be compromises on *all* sides ..



Hippos works... very wise, they are !!

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 10:50

Hippo



Why are these talks different? What has changed apart from the increasing financial burden for Turkey?

My view is that these (last attempt) talks will collapse and if that happens then I guess the TRNC will formally become a recognised part of Turkey.



By accepting a politically divided island, the EU have finally bitten off more than they can chew and are far more wary of enlargement.



The GCs have basked in the glory of achieving EU membership and of course have benefited enormously in terms of financial gain. However, I am not convinced that their philosophies and beliefs are aligned to those of the EU. Their intransigence in the current and previous talks, leaves me with the impression that they still consider themselves to be a superior race to the TCs.



The TCs understandably are sick of being stitched up by the GCs . The trust is gone. The TCs were promised many things after voting for the Annan Plan but they were empty promises. Nothing has changed.

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 10:56

if these talks went on for another 35 years it would lead nowhere,i think the same as you molly mersin10 will be annexed to turkey

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 11:14

I think you will find that the majority of TC's will resist annexation, a degree of librilisation exists here much more than if this was a suburb of Mersin.

There would be little improvement in conditions here if that road was to be persued.

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 12:29

Unless the ECHR start ruling that the GCs are also stopping TCs from enjoying access to their properties - or there is a political settlement - the "CY prob " will continue for TR..





dont see a cyp problem happy as is the status quo let the gc do all the worrying

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 12:48

will it happen wont it happen, nobody really knows, we are just guessing.



I can't see any good reason for Turkey to go in to the EU, other than it will obtain a fair bit of power through its voting rights. Not reason enough.

I also think that a solution for Cypriots would not be preferable at this time. In adult development, humans go through a process of disintergration to integration. There is no reason to belive that groups do not do this too. The TC need to go through a process of disintergation, in other words, they need to experience and fully realise their own state. Once they have done this they may naturally integrate with the GC. At the moment this process is being forced which is problematic.





What is interesting is that we are taking newspaper quotes at face value, but Talat and Christofias can release any information they want to the press. So what is Downers role? His role is to manage the process, to ensure that the leaders not only

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 12:49

come to an agreement but also to ensure that the leaders persuade their electorate to vote yes.



Downer will press upon the two sides, that in any solution, it is not just the final solution that is important, but also you must show (which is more important) that the process was throroughly discussed and thought through.



So, both Turkey and Talat have to tell their electorate that the guarantee is very important and Christofias has to say that Turkeys guarantee is unacceptable. This appeals to both sides. It would also be in Christofias interest to push this because he can force the TC to make concessions.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 12:50

So, come the big day Talat announces to his people ‘as you know I thought very hard to ensure Turkeys guarantee. This was a red line for us and I know how important it is for everybody. We have our guarantee, Turkey will not get involved in Cyprus affairs unless the TC once again become threatened. Turkey will keep a very small number of troops on the island for our protection. This was a big concession for the GC and to get this guarantee we have had to make a concession. As you know, for any negotiation to work both sides have to concede ground, and in return for the Turkish guarantee we have had to give the GC certain territorıes



Complete and utter speculation, probably pure drivel, but my point is, that we do not really know what is going on behind the scenes

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 12:58

Hi Mark. As usual a well balanced post. It's all speculation at the moment I certainly agree with that.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 12:58

Dear Cyprusairsoft



re msg 34



I can well understand that YOU might be "happy".. but the "status quo" doesn't make the maj of Cypriots, nor the ECHR, the UN, noe the EU "happy"..



It doesn't even make TCs happy.. esp as they think the EU "let them down"..



Expect to see "this Country is Ours - part 2" if you believe TCs would be happy to be officially annexed.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 13:15

re 36



Dear Mark ( ILC)



It is very important to point out that the ave. GC doesn't have a problem with TCs living on the island... They would be happy to "share" it..



Most, when asked about TR, become quite irrational - they don't TRUST TR.. Concession have only been gained in Courts up to now. Even then, TR has delayed and not paid up ion time.. TR's actions, post signing the 2005 "Ankara Accord", don't instil "confidence" ..



Now this might seem strange to us.. but the point is they are *not* using this to gain a concession from the TCs.. they just want TR troops and "illegally planted settlers" to go back to TR..





As we all know, any GC who THINKS that they could defend the island from a TR air-borne re-invasion aren't going to be Sandhurst Army Graduate material ;)



GCs would ( in general) be happy for the "handful" - esp in relation to massive TR presence - of Greek military trainers/ advisers on island to depart.



I'm thinking like 'em not agreeing.OK?

Pearlbayer


Joined: 06/10/2008
Posts: 204

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 13:38

For all intents and purposes the the North has been "Annexed" for 35 years. Can't see any of Lostgeezers problems apart from item 1). No big deal there..

Pearlbayer


Joined: 06/10/2008
Posts: 204

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 13:44

Sorry should have read item 2)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 13:54

LG forgot continued payouts by TR for loss of use of GC property...

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 13:55

mmm

the gc,s do not have a problem with tc,s living on the island ,,wow that,s really fair of them.



lostgezzer



you keep writing this bunch of rubbish .



let,s rewind back to the top YES aj has it spot on ,the talks were over the day it began,and why do we keep calling peace talks ,they are negotiations ,we have peace,what we tc,s want is some justice.



musin



long live the kktc

Pearlbayer


Joined: 06/10/2008
Posts: 204

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 14:03

6 x M. If annexed , what makes you think TR will make ANY payments to GC's ?

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 14:08

re msg 40



have the 40 new tanks arrived in the greek side yet ? oh, and there's the 7 million euro agreement with Elbit Systems Ltd (israel). the gc's have a total budget of 200 million euro's set aside for arms in 2009. it's not a

very large island and i don't think turkey is planning on an invasion in the very near future !

so while the t.c's are voting yes to annan, although this means upto 60,000 tc's will be moved, the gc's are building up on power ! must be some sort of peace thing.

before they begin the next round of peace talks, talat should ask Hristofyas why they have the need for so many weapons after so many years of peace !

he should remind Hristofyas that the tc's are good willed but not blind.

dear mmmmmm will now enlighten us-

"It is very important to point out that the ave. GC doesn't have a problem with TCs living on the island... They would be happy to "share" it.. "

the average gc didn't do very well last time dear mmmmmm.

obvious not strange dear mmmm

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 14:13

re msg 40







have the 40 new tanks arrived in the greek side yet ? oh, and there's the 7 million euro agreement with Elbit Systems Ltd (israel). the gc's have a total budget of 200 million euro's set aside for arms in 2009. it's not a



very large island and i don't think turkey is planning on an invasion in the very near future !



so while the t.c's are voting yes to annan, although this means upto 60,000 tc's will be moved, the gc's are building up on power ! must be some sort of peace thing.



before they begin the next round of peace talks, talat should ask Hristofyas why they have the need for so many weapons after so many years of peace !



he should remind Hristofyas that the tc's are good willed but not blind.



dear mmmmmm will now enlighten us-



"It is very important to point out that the ave. GC doesn't have a problem with TCs living on the island... They would be happy to "share" it.. "



the average gc didn't do very well last time dear mmmmmm.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 14:14

sorry bad internet connection, posted twice

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 14:24

geezer



THE END IS NIGH, no sorry you are going to have to explain that one to me,you have LOST me GEEZER



I apologize for calling it rubbish and upsetting you ,but what else can you call it,i don,t believe you know the difference between your backside and a hole in the ground .





musin



long live the kktc

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 14:29

Lostgeezer



You really are off your trolley!



Richard

Pearlbayer


Joined: 06/10/2008
Posts: 204

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 14:44

Can I have a pint of what lostgeezer is drinking please..

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 15:24

Lostgeezer



""Musin there is no point in talking to trying to reason with people like you, you don't like what you hear so you resort to insults.""





I think that you are Christofias,... and claim my £100 reward!!

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 15:45

m&m's



"the ave. GC doesn't have a problem with TCs living on the island... They would be happy to "share" it.. "



Do you mean 'share' as in different parts of the Island, or as in living in mixed communities?

cypwine


Joined: 09/05/2009
Posts: 177

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 16:41

I think "share" is not a good word to use!! the tcs already MIX well with the GCs... it seems to be only the norths expats that would like to see animosity between the two... i wonder why!!??

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 18:01

Dear Pearlbayer



>>what makes you think TR will make ANY payments to GC's ?<<



The fact you asked this question shows you REALLY aren't the guy to be having a serious debate with.



TR is a member of the Council of Europe.. the European Court of Human Rights ???.....



Do you think "cancelling "membership" will mean TR doesn't have to pay outstanding debts...... ))

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 18:11

Dear Yunus



re msg 47



Yes the GCs ordered lots of new Russian made tanks.. totally crazy..far better it should have been spent on Health..



Q: and WHAT use will having these tanks be if TR has complete air superiority?... the SS300s never made it to CY..



Dear Yunus.. do you really believe that the TR army is any less armed than the GCs.?



Do you really think the UN are "worried" about the GCs starting off a war to regain territory that is actually part of their state - a la Georgia ?!



Yunus, ANYONE knows that, in this day and age, Tanks are sitting ducks without air cover..



Dear Yunus, I already explained one of the main reason voted NO , last time.. and I heard it SO many times when I campaigned for a YES.. "we do not trust TR".. I beleive it is an irrational response, now.. may be a little like TCs fearing the tanks.. ?!



BTW, How do you calculate 60K TCs moving ? I estimate there are only 100K REAL TCS on the island..??!!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 18:14

Dear Robnjo



re msg 56



Share - for now sharing means in different ethnic autonomous zones.. but as this is an abrogation of HR rights of EU citizens - I would like to see this phased out over - say a generation - if certain safeguards are in place.



I appreciate TCs fear being Swamped with GCs - but GCs are swamped with EU nationals , now ;)

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 18:33

cypwine msg57



So how come we have frequent reports of 'N' cars being vandalised in the 'S'?



Or reports of people being told in the 'S' that you are 'taking your life in your hands' if you visit the 'N'?



Many TC's I have met who originally lived in the South have told me that there wasn't 'integration' 35 years ago with most communities living in seperate areas, even within a small village.



'Sectarianism' is very much alive and well and can be seen in almost any village, town, City or Country.



We only have to look at the sectarian riots last week in N Ireland over an 'Orange' March, where again riot police and water cannon were in use against mostly youths, despite the new 'Peace'.



Sectarianism seems sadly to be most endemic amongst the younger generations.



Education is always promoted as the 'Way Forward'.



It seems such 'education' will take generations to take effect.



I wish it was otherwise, I'm just being realistic.





Rob

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 20:54

Dear RobnJo re msg 61



>>So how come we have frequent reports of 'N' cars being vandalised in the 'S'?

Or reports of people being told in the 'S' that you are 'taking your life in your hands' if you visit the 'N'? <<



Well what do you think of the latter report..



In 5 years of going "north" I NEVER once had a problem .. even ME... !!



Folk visiting us in Limas(s)ol .. likewise .







N.Ireland has some folk who would like to prove to the VAST majority - who know different - that we could make peace work..



Interesting you choice to promote this to use as a "excuse" for segregation in Cyprus..Have you been to Pyla/ Pile and seen how the TCs and GCs manage to get by without damaging each other's property ? !

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 21:10

Cypwine



Having been on Cyprus Forum and seeing the statements you lot are coming out with on the politics forum ,and to be fair TC's as well ,you have a damn cheek trying to kid on its a love affair and that "it seems to be only the norths expats that would like to see animosity between the two...".



Anyone who hasnt tried it ,heres the latest thread,cute innit

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus25037.html

and that sort of dialogue isnt unsual.

Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 21:19

I wish I had kept hold of my twenty years worth of Cyprus Today, the headlines and editorials have not changed for all those years "Denktash talks to Clerides", "Denktash and Papadopulus shake hands" " Talat and Christofias drink tea together" ................................................................................................................................................



"border discussions" blah, blah, blah



For the new and nearly newbies in Cyprus don't like me get soaked up in the bullshit that comes out of politicians their advisors and media reports. After 20 years you start to yawn a bit and wonder who will win at backgammon down the coffee shop instead!

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 21:25

m&m's



I have never been murdered,...



so obviously murder doesn't exist.





I have been visiting Belfast for decades and still see walled areas of segregation and violence.



I have visited SC over the last 25 yrs, and seen places such as Pyla.



Many of us have decades of experience of troubled parts of the world.





Many of us have seen how good intentions by 'leaders' do not often result in 'peaceful' resolution.



That is often a 'home' for those who believe that any accord will be accepted by the general population.



An admiral viewpoint, but usually based on misplaced optimism.



Sad,... but reality!



Rob

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/07/2009 21:41

Dear Aslan



re msg 64



>>For the new and nearly newbies in Cyprus don't like me get soaked up in the bullshit that comes out of politicians their advisors and media reports.<<



Why is it different this time ? Well come on, Denktash didn't feel he NEEDED to negotiate - he had achieved Taksim... division - it was only when the ECHR decisions re property / fredom of movement for Cypriots, etc., were going against TR that he was ordered to be more "accommodating" by the new TR leadership..





Sadly, the GCs got Papadopoulos - elected to be "tough" with Denktash's intransigence - just as Denktash got the "boot"..



Now, we have two leaders who might be able to deliver - but now there's a jaded electorate ...

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 01:38

re msg 59



dear mmmmmm, the turkish army is better armed than the gc's. it may be because they have 2300 km of coast line. southern cyprus is a titchy little place and the gc's now want peace (quoted by yourself). 40 tanks ! oh thats nothing compared to turkeys army, or the us or the uk. i know this dear mmmmmm. but why ? would the gc's need 40 new lovely russian tanks on a small island when there has been peace for 35 years ??? if you do not wish to or can not answer the question, please do not change the subject.

"should have been spent on health" ? very political dear mmmmmm. its very simple why the tanks are here. go on keep it simple and honest. maybe you should take another look at message 59.

as for the missiles, they will arrive soon, i'll remind you when they do. and probably better than the ss300's.



please explain what is "a real tc" thanks

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 10:56

lostgeezer message 53:



I agree, you just cannot reason with some people



but this is not always because one or other of you, or both are "unreasonable"

...in order to survive on a daily basis most people need reason as well emotion



it's because there is little in the way of common ground if only on the cyprus issue

and this most likely extends to your mates if you have any of those

and yunus' mates as well, whoever there are of them, on the other hand



assuming you and your guys can magic the talks pumpkin into a golden carriage

and the guarantor mice into uniformed coachmen, you are living in a fairytale



or am I once again only stating the bleedin' obvious?

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 11:03

mmmmmm



Why are these talks different? What has changed apart from the two leaders? Absolutely nothing. The current talks will eventually collapse and the TRNC will become a formally recognised part of Turkey. International recognition of two states.



By accepting a politically divided island, the EU made a glaring mistake that they believed could be easily remedied. The GCs believed it too. They, and international politicians, still continue to press Turkey to make all the concessions because they are arrogant enough to overestimate Turkey’s desire to be an EU member.



Polished and experienced politicians they may be but the GCs philosophies and beliefs are not aligned to those of the EU. Their intransigence in the current and previous talks clearly demonstrate that they still consider themselves to be a superior race to the TCs.



cont'd

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 11:05

mmmmmm cont'd



The UK failed the TCs in 1974. The EU cannot guarantee the rights of the TCS. The fact that a country the size of Turkey has provided protection to a tiny minority of TCs for 35 years is truly admirable and honourable. They have an integrity. It’s a very unusual trait in todays politicians.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 13:18

I am increasingly in fear that the current talks will indeed fail to meet agreement and settlement.

The political landscape on Cyprus and indeed internationally changes at a very rapid pace indeed.

We talk of TC and GC. The Island is very clearly part of Europe. The ROC is occupied and inhabited by Europeans with their legal rights and protections. The TRNC is somewhat isolated from the same European status but the European influence is omnipresent with high levels of European inhabitants and investors.



It is very likely that the European influence will, under the failure of talks liklihood, become the driving force behind a settlement. I do not believe that the failure of talks will be the end. A new direction to settlement will be sought. The route will be driven primarily by Europe, Turkey and the UN. The ROC and indeed TRNC will have some say but having failed on several attempts their input will be of lesser significance.

The ROC lost out in 2004.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 13:19

GRR , re msg 67 Yunus



I "lost" my first response



1/ "real" TC .. one born of TC parentage - not "imported" mainland Turk lineage..to alter the population balance... in case that "offends" you I am an from a line of imported Brits in Ireland ..



2/ Why did the TCs continue to leave post 74 when they were "saved" ? ..



3/ I see nothing in msg 59 that needs revisiting and would ask why TR feels the need to KEEP such a presence of military hardware / personnel on island? .. I understand that as little as the purchase of 40 new tanks..



The UN don't feel CY is a hot spot.. nor do I..

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 13:21

...cont.

They may well get the short straw via the new route because Turkey will be far more influencial.



A settlement will arive by whatever means is necessary. There are too many disadvantages to the status quo and too many positives to be achieved after settlement.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 13:23

Hi Molly re 69



Simple response.. "TRNC" will not be recognised as a "state" in 1, 2 , 5 , 10 yrs - ( UN have to recognise it for you to "win"..) 10 GBP to the winner - charity of their choice - me British Heart Foundation .



The EU don't accept there is a divided state... they do accept there is an area of CY under another sovereign states control - viz UN Security council Resolutions..



The EU let no-one "down" .. TCs have received proportionally more aid.. TCs can enjoy the freedom of movement that RoC passport gives without funding / recognising the state issuing it.



I suppose you blame GCs for saying no... to Annan.. ? B elieve me, I was as disappointed as most TCs ... they were led up the garden path of expectation WAY beyond possibility .. but they had endured YEARS of intransigence by a "leader" who didn't WANT to negotiate until "TRNC" was recognised...



If you believe like Mr D - you are part of the problem..

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 13:32

Mark et al,

'I understand that as little as the purchase of 40 new tanks..'



Of course there is the the possibility that the ROC have purchased the military hardware specifically to sell on to others that cannot deal directly with Russia. The ROC is renowned as being a player in the supplying of arms to countries that normally would not be able to source quality military hardware direct.

AJ

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
18/07/2009 15:02

jack,



the greek cypriot national guard may be gloating indeed over their forty-(one) "value" t90's

...another three thousand five hundred, and they will have almost as many tanks as turkey



but this sort of one-upmanship is so childish, and me not even part cypriot turk begorrah!

apart from drinking draught bass, the real men use missiles (to knock out attack helicopters)

but when greece planned installing these on cyprus, ankara ordered them to crete instread



better to agree a compromise including security guarantees rather than all this posturing...

however unlikely that may seem in the forseeable future

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
19/07/2009 02:35

re msg 72



no offence taken; so would you be counted as british or irish dear mmmmmm ?

young tc's wish to leave now, there is no war !

why can we not ask why the turkish army had to come to the island in the first place rather than why they should leave. aj has posted a fair comment about them being sold on. it would be refreshing to know that this has happened as i do not believe that they will be used for crowd control after a game of football.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
19/07/2009 02:49

re msg 68



andre 514



did not understand your post about my friends ? please could you post again. thank you.

Reproman


Joined: 05/06/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
19/07/2009 03:53

RE: MMMMMM

You wrote:



"1/ "real" TC .. one born of TC parentage - not "imported" mainland Turk lineage..to alter the population balance...



2/ Why did the TCs continue to leave post 74 when they were "saved" ? .. "



TC's had to leave after 74 due to the (still) ongoing Embargoes and international isolation that is effecting the very core of North Cyprus in terms of Education, Health and Economy.

How can you expect us to simply stay and live in 'limbo' and rot?

TC's were and still are economic migrants as well a refugees after a terrible atroicty that happened pre and post 1974.

And your constant digs at 'Turkish mainlanders' appals me. Where would North Cyprus be without them? After being cut off from the rest of the world we had no choice but to rely on Turkey for Money, Aid and a workforce in order to survive. Similar to how Germany 'imported' many thousands of mainland turks after they lost the WAR...would you also have them all sent back now their work is done?

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
19/07/2009 06:40

the talks was over before they started lol