MicroCHP - suitable for TRNC

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 14:27

MicroCHP is a system for producing electricity and waste heat in a domestic application from burning a gas such as propane. The waste heat can be used to produce hot water ("central heating" and/or domestic hot water) or chilled water (air condtioning).

It occours to me that this might be very suitable for TRNC as many people are off-grid and even those that are on- grid might produce electricity for themselves cheaper than Kib Tek could provide it.



Has anyone any experience in this that they would like to share?

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 14:45

Vaughan



There is also supposed to be a revolutionary small scale generation system from an Australian company Ceramic Fuel Cells which also generates hot water as a byproduct and is supposed to be much more efficient than conventional power generation which wastes up to 75% of the power generated. The final consumer product is expected next year and although the first version is for connection to a grid as well may be possible to do stand alone in future.



Refer brochure



http://www.cfcl.com.au/Assets/Files/BlueGen_Launch_Information_%28Web%29_May-2009.pdf



or



http://www.cfcl.com.au/



Is this similar to the system you mentioned above ?





Aussie

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 15:34

There are similarities but these BlueGen systems are quite low in electrical output and are made to operate in parallel with the grid. They also use fuel cell technology which may be a bit too "clever" for TRNC. The system I am looking at can produce up to 30kW of electricity and uses conventional propane. It can also use the waste heat to run an absorbtion chiller air conditioning system.

The applications I am looking at are:

People who are off-grid i.e. no electricity from Kib Tek.

People who are on builders electricity tariff.

People who just want independance from Kib Tek.

People who want a dependable power supply during Kib Tek outages.

Just about everybody, actually.

AlexF065


Joined: 07/09/2009
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 15:51

Hi Vaughan



Have you heard of pyrolysis and gasification? plants

I have looked at a company in wales who were making very small scale plant that could be fitted into a large metal container (Lorry container)

they are building a large plant in doncaster they intend to burn the town/city rubbish and heat and power the homes

20,000 tons of rubbish to heat and power 6000 homes so it is said after all recycleable materials are removed



so you would get rid of rubbish and have electricity and heat

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 16:07

This form of cogeneration is well established. The downside is that although you can "export" the electricity generated, you can't really do much with exporting the waste heat, although some cities in USA and other countries use district heating as against central heating. Some large sites in the UK, notably military, use district heating.

For small scale, stand-alone use, microCHP is more suitable. In applications such as hotels, hospitals, complexes, etc., full size CHP units are quite common. I am currently brainstorming microCHP and would appreciate constructive assistance from anyone who has any.

zerochlor


Joined: 03/04/2009
Posts: 4024

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 16:48

vaughan



this might add a little more to your already knowledge of micro chp. a field study



http://www.sbgi.org.uk/ContentFiles/Events/Micropower%20presentations/08-Kofi%20Atuh%20for%20Web%20circulation.pdf

AlexF065


Joined: 07/09/2009
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 18:03

Vaughn

I have not been a member long enough to see email addresses

but i do have quite a few papers on this subject and others

such as PV and CHP

PV running air source heat pumps ect

if you are interested email me @ fast4gas@yahoo.co.uk tell me if you want case studies or manufacturers brouchures thereis a paper by the carbon trust as well they have published some interim notes on a field trial

if anything like that may be of intetrest e mail and i will see what i can send you

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 20:01

the idea is good - but: what shall we do with all the heat (generated by BHKW or microCHP)????? So, unless we find a good way of using this huge ammount of heat produced- also in summer - till then, it will be a no go. get more info here: http://www.microchap.info/



The best would be, as the daytime peak is high, get the government to pay a solar "feed in tarif" so we can all reduce the load at teknecik in daytime - as everybody could then generate some electricity with PV. Perfect for TRNC!! At the moment, even no grands from TRNC government, we can produce 1kW for as low as 15Ect with photovoltaic (runnigtime 20-25 years). Good option for offices which are only occupied daytime..







BTW: MicroCHP: VW started to offer them in germany for households via Lichtblick which is the one of the Greenest utility suppliers. The heat is stored for daytime warm water needs and heating backup.. http://www.lichtblick.de/h/vorteile_290.php but it is in german.



Regards, Henrik http://www.kib

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 20:16

BTW: once installed you are always bonded to the gas price.. As the microCHP are not so cheap, the investment must be on a stable fundament. I see fuel prices are dropping at the moment but who knows for how long.. So, once you install a microCHP you need to have a 100% gas supply with stable prices - for the next 10-15 years. And this is not given. I like the idea, and even in germany they are combining it with the utility grid and the heat usage is always given, in cyprus this would end in an hasle - as you need to have the right connection to the right aircondition (for cooling) then an switch over - preferably automatic - to heat the water in winter, and you need people who understand what to do, how to service the CHP unit and clean the inside of the sensitive gas burner, you need a clean propane gas supply, a good service team in TRNC!! etc etc..

I think the selling is not the problem - but the work after that.. puhh... enough

sunny regards, henrik http://www.kibsolar.com

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 20:48

Hi Henrik,



Take a look at absorption chillers and you will see what we will do with the waste heat in summer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator

In this way we will use the waste heat for heating in winter and cooling in summer.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 20:50

Hi AlexFO65,



Any info you can supply will be much appreciated.

My e-mail address is

vaughan@sunnycyprus.net

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
25/09/2009 22:10

Hi Vaughan, I am not concerned about how to use the spare heat - just concerned about how this will happen.. there are many options, like long term storages, greenhous heating, absorption chiller etc.. I also think the other points I counted will be very important.. The CHP technique is there, you need to apply it correct. Example: How will you combine the crapy airconditions (which are installed in 90%) of the houses with this system? Without losses? You cannot tell your customers to buy a set of new air conditions and more and more.. It will sum up..

In such case an airventilation system with heat recovery including a photovotlaic on/off grid system would be much more efficient and much more cheaper aswell. Even if installed new into an excisiting building.

But this is only my point of view. No DEEP studies in microCHP - just the common knowledge of prices per kW or unit form acctual renewable energy magazines.

Alex, please also email me the documents. Thank you!

hp@kibsolar.com

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
26/09/2009 08:39

Hi Henrik,



The absorption chiller uses low grade waste heat to make chilled water.

The idea will be to use fan coil units around the house alternatively heated with direct waste heat hot water in winter and cooled unsing chilled water from the absorption chiller in summer. Conventional refrigerant a/c would not be used at all.



CHPs make electricity at costs which may be higher than Kib Tek supply at, but in utilising the waste heat to either heat/cool the building, the overall energy spend will come down.

Remember: For every 1kW of electricity generated by a CHP, 2kW of waste heat is produced as a by-product and this is usually just wasted to atmosphere.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
26/09/2009 12:19

Hi Vaughan, I am not a fan of microCHP and generators.. sorry. A microCHP is nothing else than a generator with a heat recovery unit - which provides you the waste heat of the cumbustion process. microCHPs are availlable with gas, wood pellets of fueloil burners.. Not Green, but greener than an generator without heatrecovery.

Anyhow. So, microCHP generates electricity higher than kibtek rates and you have double the ammount of heat than electricity.. it will just not be possible to use this all economically.. unless you install a cool room or swimming pool which you heat or cool, additional to the house..

Still not a economic investment. But: Give it a try and post it here

As I said, we can generate (from photovoltaics) electricity for 15 euro cents.. for hot water: use a good water heater.. aircondition - if needed, use the inverter driven ones or avoid buying houses where you need to have any at all - good airtight and insulated houses. But thats a long way to go in TRNC..

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
26/09/2009 19:39

Hi Henrik,



You are right. micoCHP my not be as green as some sources but at least they will be greener than Kib Tek!!

For some off-grid customers this may be a better option than what they have.

newguy


Joined: 02/12/2009
Posts: 179

Message Posted:
07/12/2009 15:22

I, was a director in a company in the uk called lordek power products we were leaders in CHP installed sets all over the UK parreling with grid has a lot of problems stand alone is the way to go or even better a group of homes willing to share the costs ie. installation, maintenance etc.

henrik



Joined: 01/10/2009
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
07/12/2009 19:16

this is what I said.. also you need to know, heat or electricity, this is importand during the setup of such a system.. in TRNC I would suggest more electricity and heat as a by product for hot water..

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
08/12/2009 11:08

CHP units are sized according to the amount of waste heat they produce. In order for it to be cost effective ALL the waste heat needs to be used ALL of the time. The waste heat is a by-product of the electricity generated and is effectively "free". The waste heat produced can be used to produce hot water in winter for space heating (LTHW) and hot water for washing (DHWS). In the summer the LTHW can be processed through an absorbtion chiller to produce chilled water for air conditioning, and it is this free heat that makes the generation of the electricity a viable proposition.

henrik



Joined: 01/10/2009
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
08/12/2009 13:33

microCHPs you mean. Bigger CHP are sized in two ways, either for a more efficient heat output and less efficient electric output or more electricty with a better "sigma number" and less heat...

newguy


Joined: 02/12/2009
Posts: 179

Message Posted:
13/02/2010 10:54

I have been involved in chp for years, both on the shop floor and in management I was A director in a co. called lordek power systems a power generating co.My experiance with any form of chp is you must have a heat sink capable of takeing heat away, other wise your set will spend a fair amount of time locked out. In the uk you can parrell to the grid and export power I would not think there is such a facility in trnc. chp would be ideal for larger complexes and hotels I have manufactured and installed maney sets in swimming pools throught the uk which parrel to the grid. Anyone interested in looking further into this get in touch.