Ireland (ca 60%) says yes to Lisbon Treaty - poor show

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 15:12

It's only a difference of one letter, but Ireland is not Iceland. Both countries are in a deep economical crisis - but EU member Ireland benefits from the Euro and the poor Icelandic population, alas! So it's no wonder that the Irish, who voted so bravely against the Lisbon Treaty, i.e. when things didn't look so bad economically, now have changed their mind. And - of medieval importance - Ireland can keep the ban on abortion and some other modernisms, so the EU compromised in change for a potential yes vote. The Vatican can be proud of one of its last "true Roman Catholic" bastions in Europe, outpost Ireland. Ireland has voted for EU money and one step back in history. A poor show.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 15:39

Dear DC



In the REAL world Irish ladies wishing to have an abortion can do so in Northern Ireland ... the days when the RC Church make the rules have long passed.



I mean what can the RoI govt do if a lady goes to the UK to have an abortion .. take out an injunction to 'stop' her.. ?



IRL wanted to join the EU.. Iceland did not...



IRL wanted the be able to do biz, without relying on the UK .. Iceland thought it could "go it alone".



The days when Proddies should fear the influence of the RC Church in the affairs N.Ireland / UK are confined to ignorant folk..



I DO , however, think voting unlike the "correct answer" is obtained, is a little 'strange' ..



Is it now the turn of the Czechs to stand in the way of 'progress'? ;)



PS.. My skype is always on ;)

exnavalperson


Joined: 22/07/2009
Posts: 224

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 15:47

As usual I agree with DC.







I do not think this is an occasion for making an Irish joke

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 16:10

RE msg 2, 6xm: (...) In the REAL world Irish ladies wishing to have an abortion can do so in Northern Ireland ... the days when the RC Church make the rules have long passed. I mean what can the RoI govt do if a lady goes to the UK to have an abortion .. take out an injunction to 'stop' her.. (...)

=> A free, liberal society, i.e. not terrorised by papal directives, wouldn't send her 14 year old, raped daughters secretly to Northern Ireland/Ulster or the UK for an abortion. Your "real world" is nothing more than a sad escape from the situation in Ireland - ruled by the Vatican. How can you deny it?!

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 16:26

Its good to see that democracy is alive and well in the EU. We keep telling others that democracy is good, so it's great that we practice what we preach.

It's also good to see that Tony Blair may very well become the EU president. How fitting, as he promised that the British people could have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. He knows a thing or to about democracy.



Key lessons for me are:



*Authoritarism is alive and kicking.

*Context is everything

*Pragmatism and expediency rules



Interestingly, the EU are lecturing Erdogan for heavily fining a National newspaper, thus in their eyes further preventing free speech.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 17:10

Oh what a level playing field the EU is (not!)

Totally corrupt.

AJ

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 17:16

RE msg 6, AJ: (...) Oh what a level playing field the EU is (not!) Totally corrupt. (...)

=> Indeed, unity at all costs - credibility being the first victim. But. Is there a better political and economic system for old Europe? Take Ireland ("booming", not so long ago!). Now bankrupt were it not for the EU. And would we like more old-fashioned wars in Europe? At least we can (almost) guarantee our children and grandchildren that they won't suffer the way our parents and grandparents did. OK, away with the corrupt EU, but what then?!

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 17:53

Irelands "booming" economy almost exactly matched the UK'S net contributions year on year.



Bring on President Bliar!



DC; not a spelling mistake.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 18:14

RE msg 8, newscoop: (...) Irelands "booming" economy almost exactly matched the UK'S net contributions year on year. (...)

=> And what is your point? You could as well compare Germany and "UK+France" - seen the figures? And any idea how much money is returned to the complete British population (from 1 -> x years old) for the yearly EU contribution? Haven't looked it up for the UK for 2008/9, but here are the figures for Holland: for the 100+ Euro's per year per head of the population the return is 2000 Euro's per year per head of the population. The UK would be a much poorer country when not in the EU - and that goes for all member states.

So, if you don't mind, back to the question I'd like to see answered (and I know many Brits here are anti-EU): "Away with the EU - but what then"?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 18:45

msge 9



I can see your point DC. Corrupion is a necessary evil that makes the EU work it's wonders. Can't disagree with this at all. Corruption supposedly works very well in China.

I have no issue with the EU being an effective trading block. In this regad it seems highly effective to me. It would seem that raising wealth by building trading trust reduces the likelihood of conflict. (providing that parity and fairness exists)

I am less certain about the EU's value as a political collective, especially as the systems (countries) involved get tighter and more tightly bound. The tension this creates may perhaps eventually create conflict. Who knows

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 18:52

RE msg 10, ilovecyprus: (...) I am less certain about the EU's value as a political collective, especially as the systems (countries) involved get tighter and more tightly bound. The tension this creates may perhaps eventually create conflict. (...)

=> I'm more hopeful! Is the development so much different from the USA? There will never be another Civil War in the USA and I trust that the EU can and will control its member states until it really becomes "a united block with a lot of internal differences". It'll take time, I know - but again: what *other* solution than the EU is there for Europe?

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 19:07

DC; what question did you actually pose?



All I did was point out that the Irish became prosperous because of the eu, and rather than go through the mill in Brussels all they had to do was send a few trucks to London and take our eu contribution back to Dublin.



And yes you are right, some of the small weak and helpless countries in Europe like the low countries are happy to be subjugated to the mighty French and Germans, as far as most English are concerned they can take the proverbial running jump.



By the way, the USA is a democracy, how many of the 500million or so Europeans will have a say in the election of the EU president?

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 19:09

If they had said NO again they would have held another one in 6 months time, then another and another untill they got a YES vote.





This is what you call an "Irish Referendum" where you ignore the result untill you get the one you want.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 19:15

msge 11



I think you are saying that large political institutions like the US and the EU create stabilty. That could very well be true but is this the main reason why wars are less likley. I am not sure about this. Human psychological development is likley to be the cause of our relative peacefulness. Psychological development evolved partly through the rule of law and its sanctions, but has probably more greatly accelerated through scientific achievements, more so than political development, although political systems will develop as humans evolve. Globalisation and it's related problems will take human evolvement to a higher realm. Thats the hope anyway.



On a technical note, can the EU system be compared to the US system. Under the Lisbon teaty EU politicians are unanswerable to any electorate, so they can do whatever they want. No European citizen will vote Blair in (or whoever) and no European citizen can vote him out. I do take your point DC that the system is evolving.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 22:20

msg 5, ilovecyprus



"Interestingly, the EU are lecturing Erdogan for heavily fining a National newspaper, thus in their eyes further preventing free speech."



Interestingly, and in your eyes it looks differently? Or maybe you just prefer non EU rulers that undoubtedly practise much better self-restraint in employing the State's legal power when dealing with the media?

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 22:27

There maybe 'peace' between member states of the EU but the EU does not stop its member states from waging war on countries outside of the EU.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 22:43

How can you call it democracy when you just keep having the same election every year until they agree to stop the elections.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 23:25

Still no (for me: interesting or satisfying) answer to my question: "If not the EU - then what?"

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 23:48

RE msg 8, newscoop: (...) Irelands "booming" economy almost exactly matched the UK'S net contributions year on year. (...)

=> I said: what's your point? Adding now: you are comparing apples and pears. The UK and Ireland - what is the deeper meaning of your one-liner?



RE msg 12, newscoop: (...) All I did was point out that the Irish became prosperous because of the eu, and rather than go through the mill in Brussels all they had to do was send a few trucks to London and take our eu contribution back to Dublin. (...)

=> You don't expect a serious answer to this nonsense, do you?



RE msg 12, newscoop: (...)And yes you are right, some of the small weak and helpless countries in Europe like the low countries are happy to be subjugated to the mighty French and Germans, as far as most English are concerned they can take the proverbial running jump. (...)

=> One of your "small, weak and helpless countries" is Holland - financially the healthiest country in Europe!

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
03/10/2009 23:53

Hans

There are a lot of countries that will never be part of the EU and they are surviving without wars also your EU economics are flawed. The EU requires donations from the 'rich' member nations in order to support the other member nations that are needing financial support. I cannot remember now and I may be wrong but I think that there are only 3/4 member states that contribute the massive funds to the EU that allow the minor member states to 'prosper'.

If Holland contributes €100 per person and gets back €2000 then who is paying for this? Turkey has survived the global economic crisis more so than any of the EU member states.

So why bother with the EU. The member states that need the income from the EU are just suckering up to the EU. There are a fair few countries that should never have been admitted to the EU (including the ROC) so will the EU remain solvent? My prediction is that the EU will cease to be within the next 10 years, maybe earlier.

AJ

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 00:02

RE msg 19, my own message, to newscoop: Read the Financial Times ( http://www.ft.com/home/europe ) and understand that the biggest problem of "small, weak and helpless" Holland is where to invest the surplus of money!

P.S. How many countries in Europe have raised the pensions of the 65+ population? And in how many countries in Europe the working population will see their spendable income raised by 1.75% in 2009?

P.P.S. This cartoon in "The Economist" tells the story of "small, weak and helpless" Holland: http://is.gd/3UVpC

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 00:08

RE msg 20, AJ: (...) If Holland contributes €100 per person and gets back €2000 then who is paying for this? (...)

=> It's called commerce, stupid! (free after Mr. Bill Clinton). AJ, please mind my wink. Without the EU many countries, including the countries in the UK, wouldn't know where to sell their (outdated) stuff. That's the difference between Holland and the UK. Holland doesn't produce anymore - it's a country of sellable knowledge and service. And the UK? Interested in your answer, AJ!

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 00:14

RE msg 20, AJ (...) My prediction is that the EU will cease to be within the next 10 years, maybe earlier. (...)

=> I've read this prediction (by a Brit) on several boards before. I completely disagree with you and I hope to drink the beer I'll win - with you after 10 years.

P.S. The question remains: If not the EU - then what with good/bad Ole' Europe..?!

P.P.S. Interesting that still nobody came up with an alternative!

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 00:18

Hit the nail on the head Hans

So EU grants and subsidies are the way forward? I do not think so. Grants and subsidies are for countries that cannot compete in the real world. Believe me there is going to be be a big upset in the EU before too long.

AJ

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 00:24

RE msg 24, AJ: (...) Believe me there is going to be be a big upset in the EU before too long. (...)

=> For the time being we have to agree to disagree. (I call it a day, AJ. Had a nice, copious meal in The Cabin, with very nice British friends. I hope this is not breaching Rule 8..? Have a nice Sunday lunch!

P.S. The question remains: If not the EU - then what with good/bad Ole' Europe..?!

P.P.S. Interesting that still nobody came up with an alternative!

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 00:34

Hans

The simple answer is just go back to how it was before. Every country would be swimming or sinking based on how it performs in the big wide world.

A lot of other countries have to do this anyway. Why prop up other countries that cannot get their act together?

AJ

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 01:07

Hans we had our own war to do. The republic struggled and was persucuted for many a year . We welconed EU.They brought prosperity and held us high in the EU. Things change as does time, The econimic downturn has hit evereyone. Im pleased Holland has good times but its a matter of time

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 01:22

Hans it has nothing to do with Irish girlswanting an abortion they can get it. Its the modern age now. This is about demoracy and as an Irish lady who has never had an abortion its a good day for Ireland ans=d a better day for the EU

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 01:27

Also at the end of the day if the other two do not agree thenn we have Mr Blair. We have him for life

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 04:19

A lot of Irish people were interviewed on TV tonight stating that they had voted no last year and that was the conclusion to the election

If that was not accepted

Why should they now accept this election because it is a yes!!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 04:51

Dear Hans



>>Your "real world" is nothing more than a sad escape from the situation in Ireland - ruled by the Vatican. How can you deny it?!<<



Very EASILY, Hans ....my REAL WORLD meant that the girl could have her abortion elsewhere, whether the State / RC Church liked it, or not ...



You sound like Ian Paisley .... ;)

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 08:11

Message 2

Abortion is not legal in Northern Ireland it comes under the 1861 Offences against the Persons Act. Which was the same in mainland UK under David Steel changed this in the 1960's.

At one time many years ago there was a floating hospital ship that sat outside Irish waters and it was used specifically for Termination of Pregnancy., much to the disgust of the RC church.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 09:43

re 33



>>Abortion is not legal in Northern Ireland<<



Not so.. please read on..



Granted N.I. was not part of the 1967 Abortion Act, but in the real world an abortion can be performed if ..



She has a serious medical or psychological problem that is endangering her life if she continues her pregnancy;

She has severe learning difficulties;

Doctor's detect abnormalities in the foetus;

In some cases, women will be offered an abortion if they have become pregnant as a result of rape.



In any case a wisely advised lady can hope over the Irish Sea, but ladies from R.O.I CAN have abortions in N.I under the above cases.



http://www.thesite.org/sexandrelationships/safersex/unplannedpregnancy/abortioninireland

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 10:02

m's

I worked in the Royal Victoria in Belfast for a time and came across cases like the ones you describe, saw women begging the consultants and no way would they sign the forms. Maybe on paper these reasons for termination seem easy but in reality this is not the case. I agree that in a situation where a womans life is in danger they would then allow a termination of pregnancy. In the case of severe learning difficulties you then get into the ethics of that persons human rights and believe me it is a tricky one!

Chris

Scythian



Joined: 14/03/2009
Posts: 75

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 10:18

Hi everyone,



sorry for the inconvenience.



Private view from Russia.



I congratulate the Europeans with a great holiday.



Further, the president of EU Tony Blair.

Furthermore, Turkey understands caught in a trap. There will never be in the EU.

Furthermore, Iran offers gas to Nabucco.



All peace and happiness!





And what to do here United States?????????



How - "Divide and Conquer?"



U.S. will create a new conflict? Absolutely!!!!!!!!







P.S.

North Cyprus will live forever.

P.P.S.

What do mean abortion? Use contraception!



Scythian

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 11:00

RE msg 26, AJ: (...) The simple answer is just go back to how it was before. (...)

=> Ah, now I understand... 1939? 1913? 1869? AJ, history teaches us that a divided Europe cannot be trusted. Whatever the current problems with European countries in the EU - there is and will not be war. Nationalistic people will gradually only appeal to few(er) parts of the population - our children and grandchildren will become and will behave like Europeans. There IS no way back.



Summarising: your solution is "Away with the EU, back to the past - every country for itself and everybody for him/herself". It is a choice, but not mine. When I consider the pros and cons I can only decide that I am an European, born in Holland. (Analogy: An American born in Nevada or Iowa etc.).



The EU is also the only way for Europe to survive a bit longer under the treat of the new world power, China.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 11:11

RE sg 16, AJ: (...) There maybe 'peace' between member states of the EU but the EU does not stop its member states from waging war on countries outside of the EU. (...)

=> Not yet, not yet, I sadly have to agree. But that maybe also only a matter of time, we must hope. And as far as I'm aware there's only one EU member and NATO partner waging a war - and unfortunately it's even an illegal war (under UN rules).

All other EU members/NATO partners are involved in a UN supported peace bringing and peacekeeping action that has become kind of a war against the wish of all - except the Taliban.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 11:14

RE msg 31, 6xm: (...) You sound like Ian Paisley .... ;) (...)

=> Mark, I've been called many names, but you are going too far... On the other hand I've been calling you unflattering names also, so I will forget your insult. You are not banned for one day.

Corbo



Joined: 13/09/2009
Posts: 627

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 11:21

Presumably there will be another vote next year as last time they voted NO they forced another vote. Somehow I think the democracy stops now..when the ruling elite get want they want. This was a vote based on fear and threats. It kind of represents the modern world we now live in were many require to be told what to do and think by increasingly controlling and freedom eroding Governments and bureaucracy from the EU.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 11:30

RE msg 39, Corbo: (...) controlling and freedom eroding Governments and bureaucracy from the EU. (...)

=> Government: make more people think like you do and have your favourite party win the next election.

=> EU: you don't seem a fan of the EU - what is your view on the future of the countries on the European continent (including all islands) without the EU?

Corbo



Joined: 13/09/2009
Posts: 627

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 11:44

I think there are good things about the EU and the basic concept is sound but in recent decades more and more control has been handed to unelected bodies. The structure for freedom of trade, movement and work is good but less central Government is needed. I do wonder also about Germany and Greece being in the same economic club for example and having the same currency and interest rates..they are so different in many ways that it is like putting Cambridge Utd (Non league ) in the same league as Chelsea and expecting them to compete. Maybe the bigger club will be pulled down to the level of the weaker club after time!

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 11:56

RE msg 41, Corbo: (...) Maybe the bigger club will be pulled down to the level of the weaker club after time! (...)

=> My hope and expectations are that weaker countries will do better in all aspects - after time, time, time - with help from the strong(er) ones. Turkey seems to realise this also...

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 11:59

re msg 34 >>I worked in the Royal Victoria in Belfast for a time and came across cases like the ones you describe, saw women begging the consultants and no way would they sign the forms<<



Hi!



When did you last work there, and I wonder what would have happened if the ladies had gone to a hospital in a less RC area ?!



I *think* I know....

cornish



Joined: 30/12/2008
Posts: 186

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 12:13

1. I'm sure most of us remember when the EEC was formed - it was meant to be a trading organisation only - Hans I think this is the alternative.

2. Many people dont think that a NO vote by the Czechs is holding back progress - many believe as I do that a NO vote is holding back the homoginisation of Europe. We don't all want to be exactly the same and to have all states a bland reflection of each other.

3. Teflon Tony as EU President - well that makes sense - The UK is being seriously marginalised in Europe - and his 'Blurite ' politics would suit well, all the politicians, bureaucrats and big businesses; whose purposes are well served by this organisation.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 12:18

re 35



Dear Scythian



I commend you on your vastly improved command of the English language !



>>What do mean abortion? Use contraception! <<



Hmm.. Now the Russians I ever met will readily admit that abortions *were* contraception and very little stigma was / is attached ...

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 12:48

Re Message 43

Mark I have sent you an e-mail.

Chris

jacktheladett


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 528

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 14:28

I stand to be corrected, but if this new treaty is ratified, isn't one of the new conditions 'majority vote'? The veto system goes out the window.....and good riddance.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 20:59

Jack do you really think they wont ratify it seems they do as they are told. DEMOCRICY YEAH RIGHT

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 21:30

Dutch take it as read this was all set up why the helll would

Tiny hand over to Mr Nobodyn He styles himself on BuSh Clinton etc. Fitst the kinnocks. NOw he wil rule. God help us xxxx

Bowman


Joined: 02/05/2007
Posts: 256

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 21:32

DC,



Many moons ago you told me not to bring religion on to this forum.............

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
04/10/2009 21:59

DC;



Just how is the EU going to repel a threat from the new world power China?



To paraphrase Joe Stalin "how many divisions has the EU got?



There is only one defense force in "Europe" worthy of the name and it is being wasted/eroded in Afghanistan.



And don't expect much help from Uncle Sam in the future given the anti USA stance of the Europeans.



Now if you mean financial war than that's a different kettle of fish.

steg63


Joined: 08/02/2007
Posts: 11

Message Posted:
05/10/2009 01:17

If at first you don't succeed vote vote and vote again until you finally get the result that suits. Democracy, what democracy ?

MarkVPiazza


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 530

Message Posted:
05/10/2009 07:29

Money changes everything



Mark

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
05/10/2009 08:35

re 46



I received it, and will digest and respond later.. we were out for the day, and I will be busy, today :(

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
05/10/2009 16:24

Mark, for once I am in total agreement with you. Not many take notice of the RC these days as they have their own minds.



Just returned from Ireland last night and was there for the voting. Theh EC is the best thing for the country as it took it out of being in the third world.



The main change in voting is to do with the state of the economy and the long term effect it will have in the country. 80% of it produce is sent over seas and the EC is the main buyers.....got to be in it....to win it!



The celtic tiger bred greed and corruption........and the honest working folk are now paying for it.



UP MAYO!

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
05/10/2009 23:20

Tiggy;



Irelands main export market is by a long way the UK.



Not the "rump" eu.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
06/10/2009 00:04

Ray, big deal.



Is the UK not a part of the EU then. Ireland trades with most of the union nations if not all.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
06/10/2009 00:37

tigs it deals with most of the world. Yes the celtic tiger has gone to sleep.We wont. The North now is enjoying the boom and good for them. The EU brought us out from being classed as second or third class. Where would the great us of A be without us. Everywhere you go in the world including Italy who are so perciocal There is an Irish bar. We thanked God for the EU. It lifted Ireland but time changes everything. However the people got rich with thier homes etc. Im sad my country is having such a bad time espically as we opened the doors to sol many from the member states xxxxx

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/10/2009 12:19

W4ell Poland have now agreed to sign the treaty this sunday. That just leaves the czhecs. Will this now be the way forward for president Blair

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
08/10/2009 18:37

Dutch message 9



Totally agree, the English have never like the EU nor Europe for that matter.

We only joined in the hope of making more money and ever since have tried to block anything that looked like improving everyday life in Europe.Look at the reasons for not joining the euro.The rubbish that sterling meant we had control of our own interest rate ,and we wanted our own notes with the Queens head. Expensive bit of jingoism.Now we have to pay 30% more for anything from or in the Eurozone than if we had joined.Then we have the cheek to veto plans to be tough on the banks.



We should have left years ago and let the EU proceed unhindered. Our referendum should be to either stay in or leave, nothing else. Then we can go our own way completely and stay out of European affairs.



If you dont like the people in a club then you shouldnt stay just because you want to use some of the amenities.

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
08/10/2009 19:01

The real undemocratic and bullying acts of the EC is that only the Irish get to vote on the EC constitutional changes. No other countries citizens were allowed to be polled on these important changes. In spite of Nu-Lab promises that includes the UK. The ordinary citizen has little democratic influence on this monolithic undemocratic monstrosity.

There may be a better political and economic system for the UK. Adopt the dollar and join NAFTA along with the USA, Canada, Mexico. Any views on this ? Any benefit to the UK ?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
08/10/2009 19:27

RE msg 61, Geejay: (...) There may be a better political and economic system for the UK. Adopt the dollar and join NAFTA along with the USA, Canada, Mexico. Any views on this ? Any benefit to the UK ? (...)

=> An absolute daydream. Why would NAFTA accept the UK in its current economical state - where would NAFTA benefit? That's the question!

The longer the UK waits, the higher the risk to become a beggar for the Euro one day. There's only one way forward for the UK: stop obstructing anything EU and introduce the Euro. That would be good for Europe and good for the UK.

And it will happen. Time is all we need.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
08/10/2009 21:33

Geejay

Anything has to be better than this halfway house of some hating the EU but not having the guts to leave.Even those wanting out ,talk of leaving but still want to hedge their bets by having special agreements with the EU. Make a complete break and ally with USA.



I disagree with with what you say about joining NAFTA .The only winner with NAFTA so far as been Mexico.There is heavy opposition to it in Canada and Obama in the USA, had to promise to review it in the face of fierce opposition from farmers and manufacturing industry workers.



As for the special relationship with the USA,thats only in the UK and Blairs mind.



I am a supporter of the EU, in general , tho I would have preferred enlargement to stop at Poland for a few more years,but for the good of Europe we should leave and look for partners more to our liking. One thing, forget about Aust&NZ they are part of the far east now as regards trade.

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
08/10/2009 22:56

The EU is the very antithesis of democracy, unelected, unaccountable, faceless people who decide what is best for the ordinary citizen.

It's apologists point out that it has kept the world free from war since 1945, and that may well be true but at what cost?

France and Germany in bed together, the total subjugation of the Benelux countries, Luxembourg (burg) having an equal voice in weighty matters, and club Med dragging the North of Europe down.

What do these countries have in common? Portugal, Spain, Greece, France, (Vichy) Italy, Austria, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Finland.

They have all within the last 70 years either been run by juntas, dictatorships, or collaborators. De Valeras Irish were pro Hitler to the extent that well over 100k Irishmen said feck this and joined the British armed forces.

Ditto the former eastern bloc countries.

Understandably they want someone to hold their hand and read them a bedtime story.

The English do not want to be in this club. Simples.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/10/2009 23:48

News maybe not the english but who the hell are the voters now all they have let in to buy votes and get all else we brits cant xx