PTP Appeal process BARO answer

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 13:38

Following the Pia Bella BARO meeting 9th October, I emailed Fezyi Hansel, the Secretary asking whether there was an appeal process against PTP refusal. I chased him yesterday and here is his reply



"I have been just informed about your e-mail dated 10th October. Let give you an answer. There is an appeal procedure against the refusal of permission. You can make an application to the Supreme Administration Court within "75" days from the date which you are informed the refusal officially. The application shall be against the TRNC or the Ministry of Interior and shall be made for claiming the abolishment of the Administrative Decision which gave the way for the refusal of the permission. Generally the Advocates charge an amount of money between 3,000.-TL and 5,000.-TL. But there is any advisory table and/or decision on Advocate Fees of the Bar Council."

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 13:39

I have replied:

"Dear Mr Hansel

Thank you for your reply. I applied for PTP via my estate agent in November 2005. We were told in December 2007 that we had been refused, only verbally at the application office when we went to enquire and nothing in writing as why refused or any appeal procedure. I have been attempting to find out whether I could appeal but no one knew how to. I am obviously now out of the 75 day appeal period. Do I apply again to get refused so I can then appeal? 3000 - 5000 TL seems a lot of money for a lawyer to launch an appeal process. Can I do it myself?"

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 14:27

Hector,

1. Any appeal to any decision of the administration must be made to the High Administrative Court within 75 days of learning about it. This time limit is fixed in the constitution and cannot be varied in any way. So you missed the boat.

2. In my opinion the granting of PTP is absolutely discretionary and it is not tied down to any rules, hence it is futile to object to it in the legal sense. You will stand a much better chance to get them review it if you believe that they made a mistake in refusing it.

3. The advocates are free to charge what they like and the clients are free to shop around. As far as the HAC is concerned they do not normally award any costs to either side.4

4. The authority of the HAC is to annul any decision of the administration if they think it is illegal, however they do not replace the bad decision with a good one. So in effect, if they cancelled the refusal, you will have to wait for another decision, perhaps similar based on different reasons.

Is

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 15:52

Thanks for that. Why is it that we always seem to find answers with no help whatsoever from the powers that be? Is this yet another 'You should have known' or 'You didn'task the right question'?



There is no way as you say that the HAC is going to over rule a PTP refusal. Pity that the BARO reply didn't point that out. Likewise your comment that advocates are free to charge what they like. They do.

I think I shall go to the ECHR.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 17:56

Hector,

You do not stand a chance at ECHR because you did not exhaust the local remedy. The fact that you missed the boat is something else.

ismet

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 18:16

Foreigners (read British retirees) are obviously deemed as a serious threat to the security of the TRNC, as all refusals of PTP seem to be emanating from the Military - that is what we are told in the 'PTP Office' in Lefkosa.



Any sane person knows this is ludicrous - however, this is simply bigoted and totally unacceptable racism - definitely an issue which needs adjudicating by the ECHR.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 19:02

ismet

Let's see shall we?

mixie


Joined: 16/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
31/10/2009 22:05

Hector ,

very sorry to hear that you were refused your PTP.In terms of ECHR could you not argue, lack of transparency of proceedings?

M

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 07:20

Obviously the 'PTP Office' would use the 75 days as a 'get out' clause/excuse - however, they don't give any notification to PTP applicants, whether or not PTP has been refused. Add to this that many applicants are not permanently resident and again we have a situation which is unworkable and unacceptable - all amounting to, as mixie mentions, 'lack of transparency of proceedings. Furtive and smacking of 'sharp practice'? There is only one conclusion to be drawn! Downright skulduggery?

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 08:03

Msg 6



It appears "military" is used as an excuse by solicitors etc.



Neighbour who does not live here came over in summer and tried to chase up his deeds transfer. Was told that PTP had been refused. His solicitor had previously told him it had been accepted so that was first point of attack. Solicitor checked files and said, no PTP was refused by military.



So how come my neighbour was given PTP he asks? Reply, no idea military make the decision!!!!



He was not prepared to let it rest and after a lot of chasing around basically screwing up 2 weeks holiday he managed to get to see military. Do not ask how, I have no idea but shear persistence. The answer he got for the refusal was nothing to do with the military which became obvious when he was shown the application, the solicitor had put wrong details on the paper work.



Neighbour has been guaranteed he will get PTP when resubmitted. He will then consider his options for going public or making complaint agains solicitor.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 09:22

Cyprusishome (msg.10) wrote:

" The answer he got for the refusal was nothing to do with the military which became obvious when he was shown the application, the solicitor had put wrong details on the paper work. "

1. Is it true that the "solicitor" submitted wrong details? Don't be too sure what the clerk at the Ministry said. They can give replies without much consideration and save the day. Blaming somebody else is a national sport here. Be warned!

2. What kind of mistake was it? Does it really add up? I doubt it.

3. If it was a vital mistake, can you prove that it was the "solicitor" and not you who made the misake? The proof is on you and your word is not any better than the word of the so called but non-existent solicitor. They are advocates here. Someone who can confuse names can also confuse other vital details or can we say may be?

ismet

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 09:45

When I asked for a copy of my refusal of PTP document, which was flashed under my nose by the clerk, he slammed the file shut and just said: 'No!'



Then he said: 'Why don't you go and buy another property?'



We have witnesses who will corroborate the above proceedings - incredible!

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 10:11

Ismet,



Yes it was a mistake, the paper work was seen by a well respected person who knew the system. I cannot for obvious reasons use names not being my own case.



I will change the name to advocate for clarity and this advocate had not put all the required information on the PTP application. The obvious thing to do would have been to return the form for checking but it is just rejected.



What comes to mind is that is it possible that PTP's are being rejected on trivial errors like this to cut the backlog??



David

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 17:38

It's quite simple really. The government and policitiians do not want foreigners owning property in the TRNC. Any excuse (not that they need one) therefore to turn down PTP. It's an example of total lack of accountability in the TRNC which can lead to arrogance, corruption, racism and total lack of professionalism in all walks of life.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 17:54

Cyprusishome (msg. 13) wrote:

"What comes to mind is that is it possible that PTP's are being rejected on trivial errors like this to cut the backlog??"

It looks like it, much like the British Embassy rejecting Visa applications with no interview. Instead of asking for more information they just reject it and you can make a second appliation and so on.

It must be pressure of work.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 20:00

"It must be pressure of work."

Yeah right! Oh of course, lots of overtime needed.

AlexF065


Joined: 07/09/2009
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 22:01

I did not think you have to use an advocate to file an ptp in the first instance but may well need an advocate to appeal any decision?

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 22:40

Appeal PTP refusal decision?



Just to further line the advocates' pockets, then still be turned down!



No PTP - then the government should fully compensate every cheated applicant who has paid in full for their property, provided their application was 'bona fide'.

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 16:47

The whole process is a nonsense and clearly discriminatory.



As far as I am aware there is no such thing as permission refused. It seems that numerous permissions are not granted due to a negative military report.



There is no official notificiation. You could die waiting (and some people have). Usually, you find out either by visiting the Ministry or by making a phone call. Therefore there are no grounds of appeal because I cannot imagine they keep a telephone record!



Purchasers should do exactly what they are recommended to do by the government. DO NOT ENTER INTO A CONTRACT OF SALE UNLESS YOU HAVE PERMISSION. Let's see what happens then.

Mindy



Joined: 27/10/2008
Posts: 1210

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 17:18

If we are being refused PTP's on the reason of security, being foreigners, we are still able to live in that property which has been refused by paying rent so what is the difference, we are still a threat, this smacks of total lunacy.

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 17:51

Mindy,

I have pointed this out before - there seems to be nothing to prevent ANYONE - British, Greek, GC, or Kurd - actually LIVING in a house next to an army base or other high security installation, where they could sit with their high power binoculars and notepad, or video camera, or a Bazooka...

But they would NEVER be allowed to actually BUY it, because that would be a 'Security Risk'!

Incidentally, re. msg 19 - If the Ministry do not keep a record of telephone calls, and/or personal visits, they will not, presumably be able to identify the date on which you were 'Officially informed' that your PTP was 'not granted' - in fact, to be realistic, they would really need a signature from you as confirmation of receipt of Official notification...

Does this mean that you can put 'any date' down as the date when you learned that your PTP had not been approved, and launch an appeal regardless? (as long as they didn't actually write to your advocate, of course).

Thoughts anyone - Ismet

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 18:03

The appeal process outlined is basically what would be called a 'Judicial Review' in England. It's a legal challenge of an officials decision on the grounds of illegality, irrationality etc. It's based on what has become know as the Wednesbury reasonableness test (Associated Provincial Picture Houses v Wednesbury Corporation 1948) 'Would a reasonable decision maker, knowing what that person knew, have made that decision, or is it a decision that no reasonable person have made?'

I have no doubt that should the process be challenged in England, the whole process would be found to be unreasonable, not that it would need to be challenged, it would have been thrown out years ago for obvious legal reasons.

I have no faith whatsover in the TRNC legal system as a challenge would be a waste of time and lots of money. I shall pursue the ECHR route.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 18:15

...on the grounds that pre '74 Turkish Title Deed foreign buyers are unfairly and unconstitutionally being denied 'freehold title' due to Turkish military occupation... + perhaps, 'racialist and malicious aforethought' + numerous other anomalies.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 23:24

Keith (msg. 21)

I have just noticed this one. I suppose you are right and you can succeed to pass by the 75 days hurdle, so what? As I expressed earlier, it would be a total waste of time unless you intend to exhaust the local remedy and head for ECHR. On the other hand if your intention is to forc them to rethink, you will stand a better chance by going and seeing them and perhaps make a second application.

ismet

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 10:51

Thanks Ismet.