What will be the alternatives when the talks reach deadlock

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 13:04

http://northcyprus.biz/north_cyprus_FeedRedir.asp?FID=9565





I wonder what they will be,

Paul.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 13:19

Indeed Paul what will they be ?



For me the info coming our way over the last few weeks seems to be a bit more "believable" and there seems a toughening up of words said.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 20:00

What info is that Tats,

Paul.

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 20:01

Yes what info is that Trev, and why have you still got your avatar, whoops !!

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 20:46

How about a "micro state"

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 20:50

All tough talking statements ...

The President also said that the Turkish Side will continue to force a United Nation based solution.

*

Foreign Minister Huseyin Ozgurgun has pointed out that there will be no going back on the decision made between Turkey and the TRNC regarding the red lines and the UN Parameters.

*

The President also noted that the most disagreed upon issues between the Turks of Cyprus and South Cyprus is the issue of executive and property.

Explaining that he sees the Greek Cypriot leaders latest statements on the Cyprus issue as an insult, President Talat said that his spokesman Hasan Ercakica had made the necessary statements regarding this issue.

*

After attracting attention to itself with the consecutive initiatives launched by the government, Turkey is now preparing to take critical steps to solve the Cyprus problem.

*

Cont

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 20:51

Talat has also stated that the world community should get involved to speed up a solution



All things that we never heard 12 months ago











Carol if the avatar goes so do I !

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 21:47

Talat also said that there is no chance of anything concrete happening in 2009.Turkey are really pushing now for a speeding up of the talks and say that the gcs are stalling,

Paul.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 21:48

"carol if the avatar goes so do i"



Tats are you really so ugly,

Paul.

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 22:28

Sod the Greeks, Paul more chance of you getting a knighthood for services to journalism than this lot ever being sorted let the TRNC go under Turkey's wing 2 states for me.................

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/11/2009 22:34

Cheers Tange,

2 states seems the only solution really.I was near your place in Sept when i popped to Flippers,

Paul.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 02:29

Our history is one of emense mistrust and bloodshed. With this backdrop many of us find it hard to believe a solution can be found. There is no point in going into the complexities of the negoiations İ am sure you are aware. Needless to say the negoiations have taken a turn for the worse in the last few days, they are at that stage. The question is ...

'What will be the alternatives when the talks reach deadlock' İf deadlock is reached the talks could either be postponed till after the next presidental election although the new president if comes from the right will thoughen his stance. This is undesirable to the RoC. Or if there is deadlock it is simple.... its all over



Then we will argue for two sovereign states and seek recognition and an end to isolation.

This is an up hill struggle for us with only Turkey recognising us.

its been like that for 35 years... NOBODY LİKES US BUT WE DON'T CARE.....!!!

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 15:18

Paul

What were you doing in the rough part of town??? Word is you have a 10 bed Villa complete with rugby pitch am i right???

CJtill


Joined: 02/05/2008
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 16:26

Supposing there is an agreement has anyone thought of that. What would you do? Depending on the type of agreement could we be in Europe overnight and could we afford to stay?

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 17:19

Some of us chose TRNC because of the way it is ,we dont want change--keep things just the way they are.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 17:30

Re-mess 12 what has happened in the last two days regarding the talks,

Paul.





Tange mess 13 wish i had matey.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 17:45

http://northcyprus.biz/north_cyprus_FeedRedir.asp?FID=9567





More stuff,

Paul.

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 17:50

Message 12 "Our history is one of emense mistrust and bloodshed. With this backdrop many of us find it hard to believe a solution can be found"



Winslow,

it was the same in Northern Ireland - 2 communities at opposite ends of the spectrum but much worse: they were bombing and killing each other for decades - and now look at them: sitting side by side, smiling, joking and looking for American investment into Northern Ireland. It can be done. All it needs is a strong catalyst. The United States was that catalyst in the Northern Ireland talks. We need a strong one for the TRNC.

If only we had a strong UN or a strong EU : I had hoped that Britain would have stepped up to the mark and taken the lead but alas, it was not to be. But we live in hope - we will get a fair solution one day.

AlexF065


Joined: 07/09/2009
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 17:55

One of the messages makes an excelent point if TRNC was to join the Euro zone how many folk would be in a position to afford to stay?

Many are leaving spain for that very reason they cant afford to stay

nareik


Joined: 26/01/2009
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 18:16

If TRNC joined the Eurozone, property prices would probably increase to the level of the South, food prices would decrease as suppliers within the Eurozone competed (without tariffs) for the TRNC business, Government would be subject to EU regulations concerning banking and finance matters (no more rogue banks auctioning people's houses), free trade and access to the South which would improve tourism for both sides, Ryanair would probably open up a hub at Ercan to service the Middle East - Cheap Flights!



So it might not be all bad!



But it's not likely to happen!

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 21:30

Newlad

President Talat said Friday it would be hard to reach a peace settlement by the end of this year. He claimed a solution in a short period of time has been put off while in Ankara. He said "We did our best to see a solution this year,""we suggested intensified negotiations and talks on a deadline. However, Greek Cypriots evaded." He accused RoC of dragging the peace process out and ending talks with a selfish solution by exploiting Turkey's relations with EU. "Talks cannot go on forever and we really need a timetable," He said we have alternatives if the process comes to a deadlock." Turkish Cypriots would never be a minority. Turkey would back any decision of the Turkish Cypriots. President Gul also acknowledges negotiations will not be concluded this year. "We did our best to see a solution this year"

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 21:32

Continued

And now for the first time Turkey has coupled the Cyprus negotiations and the solution process with the presidential elections saying: ‘Either we will solve the problem by the time of the (presidential) elections, or we will not be able to solve it at all. Turkey has announced a period of six months is left for the solution process to be completed and sent a clear signal that Talat may lose the elections in the TRNC. İf Talat loses Turkey is getting ready to for Eroglu non-solution role?. This is because"Christofias thinks that a solution of the Cyprus problem can be achieved by having Turkey give unilateral concessions, a wrong attitude which he needs to quit at once. The issue must be within the parameters defined by the United Nations and on the principles which have been agreed by both sides for political equality and a new partnership of equal status which it has been reported there are still major differences.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 21:33

continuedAnd this is seriously threatening the whole negoiation process. Speaking on the NTV news channel Talat confirmed a major point of contention was the conflicting visions the two sides had on the structure of the “bi-communal federation” RoC have gone beyond parameters set by the UN, making a different interpretation of bi-zonality”.

The major point is if Eroglu comes in its to soveriegn states and Turkey may finally except this and not warn Eroglu that the primary objective is EU the accession process as they are constanley making vieled threats about they have allternatives. Have you ever noticed that after negotiations Talat always gets on a plane and flys to Ankara to report to Turkey. Turkey is our protector and nothing is agreed without their blessing. İt can be no other way for us.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 21:34

Narik

You are right about İreland it was the same in Northern Ireland - 2 communities at opposite ends of the spectrum bombing and killing each other but our history of war fair dates more than 600 hundred years even before the ottoman empire. To the time of Persian empire and Alexander the great plus we are two completely differing relegions culture and language. You will say protestantism and catholisam are different but they are still within the bounds of christianity. We are Muslim V Christianty think about the crusades too. İ agree it can be done. All it needs is a strong catalyst. The United States was that catalyst in the Northern Ireland talks. We need a strong one for the TRNC. Yes but can all this division and innate history be put to one side.

Yes we do live in hope we shall see what transpires with time..

petez


Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 560

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 22:58

It will be a two state solution and it will happen.

there are too many outside pressures to let North Cyprus continue as it is...

Talat and Christofias both want it to happen.



Turkey want to be in the Eu and the US want them to be too..

Greece see it as a black mark on their status in Europe but want a good deal.. but when is difficult to say.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
02/11/2009 23:33

Winslow,

Excellent posts and thanks for taking time to write them.Whats your thoughts of t.r.n.c. becoming a micro state,

Paul.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 00:48

Newlad

A Microstate or Ministate is a very small state examples Andorra, Liechtenstein, Monaco, even the Vatican City are independent micro states. They have very small populations or very small land areas, but usually both. They owe their provenance to either historical anomalies or some form eccentritisiam of law. They can also be characterised as small disputed territorial enclaves, having very limited economic activity and being tolerated or ignored by larger nations. Who does that remind you of…..

We are already a mini state newlad we fall into the realms of limited actvity and intolerance ….

We want sovereignty recognition and an end to isolation....

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 01:21

i reckon the talks will fail,especially over the property chapter!I hope i'm wrong on this but i just cant see all the troops leaving,all property returned that belonged to gcs 40+ yrs ago,whole villages and areas that have been long established being uprooted and having to form again in other areas,oh yes and all the mainland turks now in NC going back to turkey! i think this is basically what the south side wants,cmon folks get real theres no way Talat +turkey would accept that.I think turkey has a plan B,if embargoes arnt lifted and the TRNC not recognised ,they'll annex NC,make it a part of Turkey,they may even end up turning their back on the eu too!I for one wouldnt blame them for it either,all the eu has done is break promises and make demands!Lets face it,no way should the south have been allowed to join the eu with the island split in two,i think if they do get an agreement this will bring with it a whole new set of problems,cracks will appear pretty quickly and then trouble!

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 01:39

Yes well said sporty 100% correct...

Geoff


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 1370

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 09:19

I agree with Sporty, however, you must remember thast most Turkish Cypriots seem to want the mainlanders to return to Turkey also.

Geoff

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 10:24

Winslow re-mess 27,

Yes i realise what a micro state is and just wondered if it would be a possibility for the shackes to be removed from the t.r.n.c.which would allow them to trade freely.I understand that Malta are a micro state and they seem to be well recognised,no embargoes etc,

Paul.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 10:36

http://lt.webwombat.com/lt.php?2600



To many things that cannot be agreed on for the talks ever to be a success,

Paul.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 10:38

http://famagusta-gazette.com/link.asp?twindow=Default&smenu=69&sdetail=9827&mad=No&wpage=&skeyword=&sidate=



try again.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 13:28

Newlad

Yes Malta is a Mıcro/Mini state achieving its independence on 21 September 1964 under its 1964 constitution retaining Queen Elizabeth II as Queen and a Governor-General and is still within the Commonwealth. İn 1964 it became a member of the United Nations the European Union in 2004. Has no border controls as a result of the 2007 Schengen Agreement 2007 and and is a member of the eurozone since 2008. Of course they will do well…



We declared our Republic On November 15, 1983, but the U.N. Security Council refused to recognise us as an independent state only Turkey and the Organization of the Islamic Conference did. This left the RoC as the recognised legitimate authority on the island.

winslow.

We are a disputed enclave with two sets of people with our problamictic history and isolated that’s the difference.....

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 13:52

Winslow,

Fair point,but whats to stop the north becoming a micro state,

Paul.

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 15:13

It doesn't matter what kind of state a separate TRNC becomes... micro-type, mini-type, taiwanese-type or kosovo-type. What is needed is recognition by countries other than Turkey. This means UN, EC or the OIC.

Plan "B" would be a good start. It just needs someone to get the ball rolling and then it may spread.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 21:41

newlad

Whats to stops us well all the organisations that İ have mentioned and guess who our primary adversary?...RoC and the EU. They are determined to alienated us at every twist and turn. For the last thirty five years every time we think we have managed to make some progress some where in the world. Their media machine PR people and diplomats launch into action quoting UN resolutions and indirectly making veiled threats regading consequences of helping us in any form know one pays attention to our side of the story ..This İ know you know...

Stoping us is ourselves yes the TRNC. İ will explain why we are in our infancy as a result of the senerio above. We have been dependant on Turkey for everything security, political and financial assistance. Our economy has no large scale industrial exporters. For a start it would be economically unviable for large manufactures as our internal market is to small.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 21:43

continued

Exporter wise new enterprises setting up here logistically they would have to import raw materials by sea and then export out again that’s financially efficient unless it is an established brand. So they set up on the maniland. We do not have the human resources skills or an internal market to service manufacturing industries and no established brands that say made in TRNC. The closest you could come to export would be agricultural, dairy and wine products where we have the skills land and facilities to make a go of it. Our strenghts are tourism, banking, gaming, agriculture private healthcare and education. These industries still need more development. To generate the income and private empolyment we would need to survive. The government is the main provider for the population through empolyment and state pensions. İt supports upwards of 60,000 familys. Have you ever considered for such a small population why at the end of the month most banks inudated with customers.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 21:45

continued

İn the past there was no statutory minimum age of retierment so people would work 10 to 15 years gain another job for the same period and be intitled to two gerenrous state pension. Civil servants are untitled to very lucrative pensions. İf you were in the Turkish Cypriot Army your service time was doubled with your pension. So people were retiering and reempolying regularly. With the advent of better medical attention and medicinces life expectancies have risen causing a huge strain on the public purse. Our economy has only really been developing in the last 15 years. Our GDP per capita is low revenue from income taxes is low. Our current account is always in deficit we are totally dependant on Turkey for financial assistance.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 21:46

continued

Therefore in conclusion it would be financial suicide to form a micro state at present minus the correct infrastructure İ mean the basic physical and organizational structures for the operation of our society, and our economy to function. We do not really have modern technical structures on the scale needed at present such as roads, water supply, sewers, power grids, telecommunications, We have only basic social services state schools and hospitals Turkish Cypriot military forces are minimal. Perhaps when hopefully there is resolve to our plight it could be a possible option in the distant future this is my opinion.

Winslow

greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 21:56

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_microstates



Grey.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
03/11/2009 22:01

Newlad.



I hear nothing that would prohibit The TRNC becoming a micro state, and a protectorate of Turkey. It is usually



the chosen solution to allow all sides to move on when there is total intransigence. What better The TRNC. The chosen



UN solution the Annan Plan, was not even allowed to see the time of day.



The greeks would be well miffed, divided Cyprus. but they have been given every chance. Both sides united in The EU!!!



Pass the Efes!



wynyardman

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 00:33

"both sides united in the eu" not going to happen matey,

Paul.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 01:58

in the EU -neither should be in the EU as separate entities..Total population of Cyprus is about the same as a medium city, For geographic Cyprus to have two representatives with voting powers would mean Cyprus as a whole ,with only a million people ,would have more votes in parliament than either of Slovakia ,Denmark ,Ireland,and Finland.



Cyprus's votes in parliament per million would be 8, in other words 25 times greater than Germany per million,and 16 times greater than UK or France.



Only way round this , ROC and TRNC to split the existing vote allowance between themselves ,3 for ROC and 1 for TRNC. But to be honest I cant see the North ,with only 250,000. being allowed in as a separate entity.The EU would have to draw the line at some size. Best solution for TRNC to go with Turkey and enter the EU if or when she does.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 09:47

There has been a 'deadlock' for the past 35 years!



Nothing new then?



Three alternatives are possible:



1. A united Cyprus under a federal government - with two 'states' or 'provinces'.



2. A De Jure and De Facto annexation of the TRNC into Turkey.



3. The status quo - as it has been for the last 35+ years.



The key problems:



1. Land and property ownership.



2. Turkish troops based here.



3. Constitutional balance of power to secure rights of minorities i.e avoid the debacle of the past where the GC abused their majority status.



Key problems for the respective leaders:



1. GC have to face down the vast anti-TC propaganda machine in ROC which will lose them votes if they proceed to any form of unification.



2. TC almost entirely dependent on Turkey for its financial survival - and the foreign policy of Turkey will be an important determinant of their position.



3. Lack of political will to make the sacrifices necessary for a solution!



Cont'd...

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 10:05

4. EU tacit support for the ROC whilst only paying lip service to TRNC!



Given what has happened in 2004, the TC are probably of the mind 'once bitten twice shy'.



The GC will never be happy with any concession of 'GC owned land / Property'.



TRNC economy is on the brink - the government and the TCs have done little to create a 'Taiwan' style economy here and of course the TC have had an easy ride for the last 35 years earning money without much effort - will competing directly with GC and other EU businesses really be an option?



Turkey has orientated its foreign policy to the East with the latent support of the USA who have a hidden agenda for what they want here in NC! No prizes for guessing what the USA want!



EU as usual sitting on the fence - it is not sure if it wants to deal with all the economic woes of TRNC!



Conclusion: More feet dragging, finger pointing and playing the blame game! Only Turkey will DECIDE what will happen to the TRNC.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 10:21

Moover,

"The GC will never be happy with any concession of GC owned land/property" The GC will never be happy full stop.I still think though that if embargoes where lifted in the north,eventually the money would come pouring in through tourism etc,

Paul.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 10:32

MSG Mover 321

Yes... Yes... Yes.. although İ disagree with you 'easy ride for the last 35 years earning money without much effort' many people have had difficult times here. İ Know many people that have been made redundant or lost there bussines. İts is easy to confuse our layed back lifesyle as a lazy life in comparision with the hustle and bustle of large european cities. İts just the way its is in sunny climates. That does not mean to say people have had it easy come ...come there is no such thing as a long term free lunch in life in the main its hard.

Also clarify 'No prizes for guessing what the USA want! please...



Your final conclusion though is absolutely spot on....

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 10:40

Paul, I agree that GC are unlikely to be happy with anything less than 100%



As for money pouring in if the embargoes were lifted...I am not too sure.



1. The TRNC goverment and legal system is ill-equipped at best to deal with the current level of 'foreign' investment let alone a flood!



2. The rules which protect TC nationals versus other nationals are a recipe for stagnation and corruption. Open and fair competition would be the best - but there is not the will nor unfortunately the capacity to deliver such changes in the TRNC!



3. The infra-structure here cannot handle what has been going on let alone what may happen if and when the embargoes are lifted!



4. How many foreigners will come and invest when it takes 3-5 years to get PTP / Title Deeds?



5. How many foreign businesses will want to invest when the system here is at best 'opaque' and the legal system if not corrupt is so full of loopholes that it would be better used as a sieve than a process of justice

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 10:41

http://northcyprus.biz/north_cyprus_FeedRedir.asp?FID=9588



"Only Turkey will decide what will happen to the T.R.N.C."

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 10:43

Moover,

Mess 46 wouldnt be a military base would it,

Paul.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 11:20

Paul! You are a genius ) MB is what the USA want after "leaving" Saudi and shelving plans for a 'missile defence system' in Czech Republic / Poland - the only logical step is to protect its interests (Israel, Oil) from somewhere a lot closer!



Just read the article! It is what I have been saying for a while...and in terms of real politik it is the only way forward! Turkey has to lead - I cannot see TRNC and the ROC solving the issues by themselves! Too much bad blood and too much greed

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 11:27

Winslow - I stand corrected! I should have made it clear - I don't mean all TC are lazy and made easy money or that there has not been a struggle over the last 35 to make the TRNC work. I was referring to those in power and in business who have used this situation to make easy money and take advantage of foreigners who have come and invested here! You don't have to go far to find such exploitation of the "rules".



There are of course many TC who have made huge sacrifices over the last 35 years - it is all the more reason to say that a few in positions of power and influence have brought the name of the TRNC in to disrepute.



Just key in to Google - Property TRNC - Corruption - and see waht you get!

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 12:32

MSG Moover 321

İ have done as you have requested



The government has attempted to counter the view that the Judicial system PCO and others have failed homebuyers and the wider community it is not jusy foriengners. The truth is they have failed in instances due to corruption, lack of clear legislation, inexpericenced officials, whole hosts of reasons. İt has left expericenced criminals and others able to expliot the system and people. İn some cases it is foriegners explioting foriengners(Robb) and TRNC explioting what can İ say its a....... dog eat dog world.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 12:35

Continued

İn 2000 here on the İsland many banks collapsed due to the same reason failure of the regulators and inappropriate legislation or corruption. İ and my family were victims and we are Turkish Cypriots. So it is not just foriengners. İt took our action group 5 years to get our money. So I fully understand the fustrations of people my whole familys life savings were lost in various banks.

Furthermore people were murdered that how serious it got....

İ felt to like many at various stages it was pointless but you can't roll over and die. You have over come these protracted difficulties. To anyone who is having difficultiesİ sincerely hope your resolves are fruitful in the end justice will previel you must fight.



Every dog has its day.....

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 12:38

İt should say TRNC explioting TRNC nationals

AlexF065


Joined: 07/09/2009
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 14:50

I think it depends on who is more powerful in world terms the UN or the EU

I think it would be the UN I am not sure about voting blocks within but if all the islamic states and say the US + a few US lap dogs all side up and say TRNC need world recognition due to XYZ reasons

it will happen and become a mico state in its own right

The EU would be left with so much egg it would run out of bacon

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 19:16

Winslow! Sorry to hear about your plight! yes, the TRNC is certainly a 'dog eat dog' world! I agree these 'criminals' did not leave even their own in 2000 at the time of the banking crisis in Turkey and here. So I truly understand your perspective.



However, I was responding to the line that 'foreign investment would come pouring in' - and for the reasons given in Mssge 49, I cannot believe this will happen as easily as some believe.



I want the TRNC to succeed - I just cannot see how it will without a 'root and branch' restructuring of its economy, legal system and governance.



For such change there has to be a need and at present those in position of power and influence are far too comfortable in exploiting foreigners and local TC's and without much work - but simply exercising influence and favours for a price - they can get away with almost anything and very little if anything can be done!



It's sad that an island with so much potential is being short changed by a few!

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 19:54

Foreign investment to flood in.



You have to ask yourself if the collapse of property investment is down to the ROC, Orams , EU, etc.although plenty was getting sold in 2005 when these things were apparent, is what puts people off.



or is it down to the internal machinations of the TRNC itself and the well publicised exploitation of investors that

puts further investors off.

If you believe the first then investment will come in .If you believe the second then nothing will change.



I have a feeling that Turkey will step in to correct the abuses.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 20:09

Girne_29: There is no one reason why there is a property slump and a definite slow down if not a recession in the economy.



1. The Internet has become a meduim to magnify the problems that foreigners have in buying property here.



2. There is the worldwide recession from the banking crisis



3. Borrowing is much harder than it was in 2005 and is likely to remain that way for the foreseable future.



4. The lack of legal protection for any prospective purchaser



5. In which country does anyone have to wait 2 or 3 years to get their PTP or even 5 years or more for title deeds?



6. Orams case and the negative publicity



7. The bureacracy and cost of getting documentation - legal redress



8. Poor business practices - and quality of build



9. There is an over supply of property - price determined by Supply / Demand



10. Poor governance by the TRNC government



11. ROC threats over land / Property



12. Cost of living has sky rocketed over the last 24 months!



Enjoy

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 20:26

Turkey hasn't moved to eradicate the abuses in 35+ years - if it does move it will be to find a final solution for the Cyprus problem - I would guess the Turks have had enough of supporting the life style of the rich and influential TC's and not getting much in return except for the TC abuse of those of their citizens (Turks) who have come to the TRNC to find a better life!



Stepping in to eradicate the corruption is easy to say and hard to do!

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 20:35

MSG 58

Thank you for your kind understanding of what happened in 2 thousand it was a traumatic expericence in many ways there are still ramifications up until today. You make excellent points and so does msg 59. İ will think of each point and answer.

Winslow

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 20:45

moover



1, 4,5,10. are down to no one else but the TRNC govt itself. Which is why I think that Turkey will take command of the situation. The property market in Turkey is run along very different lines.



The two things that have destroyed the market is the illegal(elswhere) mortgaging and the information that hits you in the face on the internet regarding title deed.Nobody now will hand over their life savings when told on the internet that they will not own what they have paid for ,but instead should trust the system to give ownership in as much as 5 years from now.



Its ridiculous to expect the Turkish taxpayer to pay the cost of the TRNC's economic suicide.

Turkey only need demand that TRNC use the same system as they do, and put their own people in place to enforce it.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
04/11/2009 21:04

Girne_29:



I merely said that there were many reasons for the current problems in the TRNC economy in general and property in particular in answer to your mssge 59. Investment here is unlikely to flood in because of the reasons I have stated in Mssge 60. I was simply saying there was more than the choice that you mentioned in Mssge 59



We are in agreement that only Turkey can solve the problem but it is playing a long game in its foreign policy.



I doubt if the Turkish government will 'step in' to save the TRNC from its own stupidity by imposing its laws and having its own people here! That is most likely to happen IF and only IF they annexe the TRNC as a part of Turkey.



It will no doubt carry on funding this corrupt system for as long as it takes to get a solution to the general Cyprus problem!



35 years may not seem such a long time after all

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 00:18

MSG Moover3211.

The Internet has become a meduim to magnify the problems that foreigners have in buying property here.

Yes it has become a good source of information of the pitfalls. But not only here but in all countries it is interesting that many of the scams are in principle the same. İt is also an inportant tool in reasearching the correct way to do things to avoid the pitfalls.

2. There is the worldwide recession from the banking crisis.

Yes there is a banking crisis which has tightened liquidity descimating the bussines and morgage market. İt was difficult enought to obtain a bussines loan but to remorgage on the pretext of a retirement or holiday home in the TRNC and other countries has become a non starter.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 00:20

con

3. Borrowing is much harder than it was in 2005 and is likely to remain that way for the foreseable future.

Credit markets are easing and moragages are at historically low levels although banks and building society have tightened their lending criteria it is harder. İf you can fulfill the criteria it is an excellent time to purchase and arrange fixed rate moragages for the long term because rates will rise in the next two years.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 00:20

con

4. The lack of legal protection for any prospective purchaser. A question that is constantly brought up İ refer to what İ always have to say. There are instances due to corruption, lack of clear legislation, inexpericenced officials, whole hosts of reasons where the system has failed.

rendering expliotation. Our laws here are based on the old colonial system. Our Judicary is always slated but İ have always maintained that if the evidence is there and you fight meaning well prepared and dertermined you will win and eventually they will act. İt could take up to 5/ 6 /7 years but better than nothing. The judges hear are gernerally British trained fromer LLM LLB they know extactly when clear concise objective argument is presented. You will eventually succeed if you do your home work and present a strong case.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 00:22

con

5. In which country does anyone have to wait 2 or 3 years to get their PTP or even 5 years or more for title deeds? PTP everyone tells differing acounts İ suppose again its how hard you push if you know what İ mean. İ have to say how long does it take to get a british residency...Title deeds what can İ say so many nightmare accounts. İ have my rules when İ have brought property and that is ‘here is my money.. give me my deeds not promises ‘a promise is a comfort to a fool’.. no deeds no money..İ walk away simple as that İ trust none of them.

6. Orams case and the negative publicity.

Yes extremly negative very hipocritcal İ have never seen RoC order the demolition of a single dwelling built on formerTurkish land where is enforcement there. İ asure you that many T/C have taken legal action in RoC they cannot even get into court in certain instances and that new airport well who’s land is that reportedly T/C.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 00:23

con

Sadly İ have to say that in my opinion the High court will uphold the ECJ decision this is a worrying thought for Ex-pats and T/C who have assets outside the TRNC İ advise as quıck as possible put effective solutions in place to protect your assets in UK and EU.

7. The bureacracy and cost of getting documentation - legal redress. That will happen every where if there is a problem.

8. Poor business practices - and quality of build. This can happen anywhere there is good and bad.

9. There is an over supply of property - price determined by Supply / Demand.

Yes ‘says law’

10. Poor governance by the TRNC government

The government has attempted to counter that view but central government is beuracratic and inefficent. İt is a common compliant amongst my people that some in government just take to long to do things all they do is sit around the office all day long. İt infuriates alot of us.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 00:25

con11.

ROC threats over land / Property

The Orams.

12. Cost of living has sky rocketed over the last 24 months!

Yes it has it makes you wonder how people get by. İ believe alot of my people live on credit if they do not receive two state pensions and work at the same time.

Winslow

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 00:29

Looks like i have created a monster here,thanks for all the input people,

Paul.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 00:45

Find out who owns vast amounts of land around Gecitkale airport or the holding companies and then do a paper trail back to the Country that supplied all finances for the purchases. That will tell a story!



Richard

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 10:02

Winslow: So in general we are in agreement - but I beg to differ on the following:



7. & 8. "That will happen every where if there is a problem"



To both points I would say: It can happen everywhere but NOT to the same extent - if you are comparing it to the Middle-East and North Africa - sure but not so in most of Western Europe - where a process can be easily followed!



As a lawyer I have to totally disagree with your point on the legal system!



There is no enforcement and the system is riddled with corruption, inefficiency, delays and high costs!



The adage here is quite simple - "Why hire a lawyer when you can buy a judge"!



I am sorry, but being based on a colonial system doesn't make it operate in a JUST and TRANSPARENT manner!



So in general my reasons as to why investors would not invest here still stand?



My argument is quite simple: If you have an open system you will expose the corruption and the flaws. People will ONLY invest if they have confidence!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 10:12

Cont'd...



And confidence comes from know the following:



1. There is an open and transparent legal system



2. That competition is fair and open to all.



3. That the government doesn't favour one section of the community over another (TC's Vs. Non-TC's).



4. The rules of doing business are stable - i.e. not changing every second week!



5. Job protection for TC's is removed - as jobs which are open to competition will engender the best to come out on top and hence the quality of the service we get will be better! It will also ensure those working in government actually do a full day's work!



6. Those who are responsible for corruption are dealt with in the criminal system and the punishment fits the crime!



7. Beaurucratic red tape is cut down to a minimum and that the system for obtaining documents is streamlined - it will lower costs and encourage investment!



8. The system for issuing PTP / Title Deeds is refined i.e. a legal time limit to issue these -



Etc..

Geoff


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 1370

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 12:34

Looks like we are all mugs for having bought property here then?

Geoff

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 12:39

So what will happen when the talks reach deadlock.We seem to have gone of thread,

Paul.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 12:46

Geoff:



People make many decisions through out their lives some of which work out well and some which don't.



Each person has the ability to make such decisions which suit their circumstances and hopes / aspirations.



It would be absurd for me to say that 'we are all mugs' for buying here. I am sure there are quite a few very happy purchasers living a fulfilled life in the TRNC.



It is equally clear, that the 'dream' which is offered here by unscrupulous developers to people who are seduced by the sunny blue skies and the 'easy holiday' lifestyle and perhaps the desire for a change soon turns in to a nightmare when they realise that they have either not thought through their decision or worse have left their commonsense at home whilst parting with large wads of cash.



If they did their homework, researched the TRNC they would know of many of the issues which are all too common and rented for 6 months to a year they would have the right information to make the best decision

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 12:53

Cont'd...



Sadly, all too often they do exactly the opposite!



If you were to buy a home in the UK should the process here be the same? Of course not, yet many people make this assumption.



Because lawyers are regulated and insured in the UK does it mean the lawyers here are the same? Of course not...



Because the builder promises to build your dream home do you pay a large percentage upfront? Of course not...



But people do.



As long as people are prepared to walk around with their wallets and purses wide open (figuratively speaking) is it any wonder that they get 'mugged'?



Buying a home anywhere in the world including your home country is stressful enough - then why do some people simply bury their heads in the sand?



If enough people refused to part with their hard earned cash and the flow of 'mugs' dried up...then perhaps, just perhaps the TRNC government will start taking the problem seriously.



Unfortunately, people still want to be an ATM for TC developers!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 12:56

What will happen when the talks reach deadlock - I thought that was already answered?



Message: 46, 47 & 49

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 15:09

MSG Moover321

Thank you for your answers yes we do basically agree on many things. İ will consider your answers and respond keep an eye on this tread. İ will address a point now the reason for the rip of using ‘Says law’ as the primary driving force. Say's law, or the law of markets,Jean-Baptiste Say (1767–1832), in its simplist form. İn free markets products and services traded to equılibrium. So the full supply will match demand it can only function efficently within laissez-faire economies. But what drives the demand in this instance we are dealing with the property issue. You put it absoloutely correctly.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 15:10

con

It is equally clear, that the 'dream' which is offered here by unscrupulous developers to people who are seduced by the sunny blue skies and the 'easy holiday' lifestyle and perhaps the desire for a change soon turns in to a nightmare when they realise that they have either not thought through their decision or worse have left their commonsense at home whilst parting with large wads of cash

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 15:11

con

Human desire drives supply and demand wants and needs this is where the expliotation occurs. Developers are fully aware that ex-pats and others have the dream and desire to live in sunny climates They are like predators. When people arrive from the rat race of the cities they are in eutopia. They cannot wait to open their wallets and buy into their dream and then they are f....ked. There emotions are manipulated and it is our emotions that drive us as humans (emotionaldreammail). Yes human wants and desires the inner working of ‘Says Law’ Buyer beware of the predators have your wıts about you... don’t be an ATM for developers...put your emotions back in your wallets do your research do it right... or you will only have yoursevles to blame

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 19:17

Winslow/Moover

Excellent posts, hope anyone thinking of buying reads it.



One point however about taking due care and researching.



Mugging is illegal even when the victim fails to think properly about where and at what time he is walking. Thats the trouble in NC, when it comes to property ,its the opposite of a victimless crime,we evidently have victims but no crimes.

I might be stupid for not taking due care ,but I would still expect what happened to me to be treated as a crime.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 20:46

MSG Moover321

There is no enforcement and the system is riddled with corruption, inefficiency, delays and high costs! The adage here is quite simple - "Why hire a lawyer when you can buy a judge"!

1.There needs to be an open and transparent legal system Those who are responsible for corruption are dealt with in the criminal system and the punishment fits the crime!.... İ totally agree yet it is endemic.

İ say buy an MP

İn October 1994 Ian Greer Associates, bribed two Conservative Members of Parliament to ask questions in parliament on behalf of Mohamed Al-Fayed it was also alleged other favours were committed. Culminating in whole hosts counter claims and claims The "cash-for-questions affair" was big political scandal 1990

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 20:49

Continued

2.Cash for Honours (Peerages) the heart of the Judciary in United Kingdom in 2006 and 2007 political donations and the award of life peerages. Expliotation of electoral law anyone who donates money must declare. Tony Blair, nominated several men but the House of Lords Appointments Commission. Rejected them Metropolitan Police were called in Lord Levy was arrested later released. An investigation was conducted labour paid back the donations in 2007 the Crown Prosecution Service would not bring any charges against any of the individuals involved …lets say they closed ranks…excuse the pun on this one…. İ rest my case

PS İ will be back to answer the other questions after the footie and İ would also say İ was a little bit harsh on developers they are all not predators only a few there are good ones..research

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 21:17

Newlad,



Interesting arguments. They had the Annan option. The world needs to move on.



Nothing is not an option. There has to be an alternative, that is a genuine option!



Micro State a Protectorate of Turkey.



Look up Wikapedia.......Micro state........ then protectorate. What else meets the International agenda?



wynyardman

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 21:43

Winslow: Interesting and smart perspective!



My only problem is that even with cash for questions and peerages for sale - it generally didn't affect a foreigner coming to but property in the UK or invest in a business. Of course that does not justify the type of corruption you refer to and quite rightly so!



However, in the TRNC the general malaise is one of being 'ripped off' at nearly all levels....and that is what is frightening! I know for sure there are good TC developers but they are few and far between so it is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff as a foreign buyer



It would be helpful if these few developers could get together and form some sort of association which will 'gurantee' the projectbe it off plan or a new build. I am sure there would be a flood of people wishing to use their services.



I'd be happy to put such an association together but there has to be the will and there will be the additional costs - small in relative to the potential loss

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 21:51

Wynyardman:



A micro-state / Protectorate may sound plausible in theory but the reality is that the TRNC is wholly dependent on Turkey as it is! It is unlikely that the Turkish taxpayer will want to continue funding the current TC lifestyle once the 'state' has been formed!



The upshot is that the TC will need to develop an economy which is self-sufficient - and therein lies the problem! They (government and business TC's in general) neither have the capacity nor the will to do it!



It would need a root and branch change in the business practices, allowing foreigners to come and invest here freely and compete directly with the TC businesses! How many TC businesses would survive?



There is the explanation why the TRNC has a policy of TC first!



Cont'd...

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 21:58

Cont'd...



If the economy became like Taiwan - open and free competition this part of the island would soar!



But sadly, people only see the short term profits - and after all just driving around in your 4x4, having long lunches and getting a wad of cash or 'free land' that you could sell to an unsuspecting holiday maker and living between here and London is not a bad life style is it?



If the TRNC was serious about standing on its own feet it would have done something about it over the last 35 years or so!



Yes, they have had great struggles in the past and made many sacrifices but that is in the past - what are they doing for the future? For their kids and grand kids?



A Micro-State will simply not survive in the current structure - and with the present legal and governing system!



It requires radical thinking but I regret the current leadership in the TRNC and those in positions of power are more concerned with the here and now then of the future!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
05/11/2009 22:40

Moover321,



I respect your view. Time will tell.



wynyardman

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 00:10

MSG Moover321

The point İ was making was corruption at high level is endemic not just here. İ could argue how do we not know that an MP or Peer used his postion to grant government land for retail development instead of land earmarked for a hosptial or school thereby robbing the community of an esential public service. Or a large corporation that was to be investigated for tax evasion therefore robbing the taxpayer reducing the public purse and depriving the comumnity again of services. Malfeasance in office, that’s my point it dosent matter who they rob people are people.



Now PTP and Tiltle deeds. Only what İ am told do not shot the messenger.

etc..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 00:11

con

Big subject big problems where do İ begin. PTP Passport,Tapu Site Plan,Koçan Police reference, UK Residency Visa stamp, Sales Agreement, application Letter. Complete Permission to Purchase Application Form. Then wait file number.

Firstly İ will say again don’t laugh who cannot get PTP. The law anyone with an international or Interpol warrant for their arrest. It is what it is. İ am told that most of the delay is here rgarding police report many fail to disclose. The simplist way İ can put it is my lot don’t know the difference between a parking fine warrant and a stretch in Parkhurst. People must clear any outstanding litigation. There is now a mutual assistance agreement between UK authorities and T/C authorities they exchange information this may be the cause for many on top of any cyclical backlogs.

etc

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 00:12

con

Title Deeds asuming all work is completed to spec. All regulations are met. The local authority has inspected and signed of the development or build. The file goes upstairs at the interior ministry infront of a committee. Now İ am told the committee meets every Wednesday at 8.30 in the morning 3 Wednesdays a month. They discuss many issues not just property. They allocate between 30 minutes to 1 hour to check the files are correct and stamp title deeds and send downstairs to the Tapu. The point is if the developer has not completed or paid the relevant fees the file will not be at committee. So no title deeds until he completes and pays the necessary fees and gets the development signed off. When a developer tells a purchaser İ am waiting for this or that then alarm bells….you could be waiting for a long time no committee no deeds. This is what İ am told..

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 06:00

Winslow:



1. I agree that there is no country without corruption.



2. However, we are specifically talking about the TRNC. Although the process you describe is what is expected by law and regulation - the reality is far from this relative ideal. It may be because they simply do not have the capacity to deal with the issues - then that begs the question why are they in their jobs in the first place? The answer is because they are TC and not necessarily the best talent to administer this. Further, the system is open to abuse - by the developer, banks, estate agents, landowner or anyone else with connections or even without connections. I have travelled to more than 85 countries and many, many times. I have lived and worked in several countries including UK, USA, Canada, Japan, South Africa, Saudia, Gulf states. I have simply NEVER come across such a system so openly abused and on such a wide scale! That is my problem here in the TRNC Cont'd...

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 06:07

Cont'd



The worst part is that the government and those in positions of power know this situation very well and claim they will take action. However, the vested interests make it impossible for change.



This is my overall point: The original question is what are the alternatives if there is 'deadlock'?



The fact is if the TRNC goes it alone or part of Turkey will the TRNC be able to stand on its own feet without Turkish taxpayer money? The answer is sadly no! For money to "pour in" from foreign investors there should be a level playing field and corruption cut down to a minimum (it can never be fully eradicated).



For this to happen the TRNC government needs to take some radical steps. However, it neither has the capacity now the will as those with vested interests will simply not allow the necessary changes!



Did you know that one of the chief concerns of the 'elected' officials in the current negotiations is what will happen to their position if there was a unity govt?

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 09:06

MSG Moover321

Thank you for your response and dialogue İ will just deal with your final question quıckly.

4.Job protection for TC's is removed - jobs are open to competition will engender the best and quality of the service we get will be better! also ensure those in government actually do a full day's work! The rules of business not changing every second week! İ know this İ hate it.And the attitude of some of these beauracrats they really fancy themselves yet they are nothing. İt has extended from a Keynesian (multiplier) policy when there was no chioce in our earlier years to. To affiliation to which ever political party is in office (politicl neputism) it robs the whole community further more it extends to they will only process applications for people that are affliated to their particular party and slows up the process for others.

etc

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 09:07

con

And it does have ramifications regarding investments also. You are right you make many rational arguments. İ cannot condoan this but it seems to be engrained in our way of doing things. This was a major problem in Turkey when the AKP came to power (Public works contracts) they pledged to change the system to (competative tendering) and did so we all live in hope that as time moves on the mind set of my people will change. For now for me in the current cycle its ‘when in roman’ you have no choice until there is change.



etc

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 09:11

con

Yes İ am fully aware of the fear of many of the established heirarchy they do not want unification the shit will hit the fan. Their positions of authority will be gone. They will be hung drawn and quartered by the RoC. But if the RoC comes in with all our hatreds. We believe at the moment we have a system of the lesser of two evils. They hate us we are usurpers İ also fear for the Ex-pat community you will feel their wrath also. They believe you have taken advantage of there misfotune knowing full well the history of the provenance of the land that has been developed. This nonsence about oranges and lemons and the bells of st clements. They will make you all fall down into.. a big hole....

There cannot be unification plan B has to be İ believe the slow process of (Cyprusisation).

Also very interesting idea about Association..will think about that one..another problem here no social housing for our people its left to us...

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 13:55

Maybe we can work on the association together

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 15:36

MSG Moover321

İ shall hopefully be speaking to the Government in the next few weeks regarding another unrelated commercial matter. İ will bring up the issue of an Assocation and and see their views. They are fully aware off the negative publicity we have been attracting in or residential construction industry regarding overseas buyers and are not at all happy. İt has affected the economy. They are also dıspleased about Orams İ told them last year it was all over all that is happening is the delaying of the inevitable... İ will let you know.

greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 18:22

Any news on todays talks,

Grey.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 18:54

MSG Grey

RoC Stephanos Stephanou dismissed claims T/C and RoC have agreed chapters of governance, on economy and European issues.



Mehmet Ali Talat, in Brussels, apparantly said 'two sides had agreed on three chapters', Stephanou said no agreement on chapters no agreement on governance or European issues or economic issues.



Same old... same old ...Grey don't hold your breath ...we going no where fast....

greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 19:15

Wins,

I thought they were meeting today on Property,

Grey.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 20:07

Grey

No the negotiation teams meet.... they meet friday

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 20:12

Today is Friday, maybe Saturday in NZ!



Richard

greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 20:28

I thought they met on the 6th of Nov which is today,

Grey.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 20:48

They even got me confused all this backwards and forward like ...yo... yo's... nothing happen if it was last week this week or next week...

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 21:00

http://www.brtk.cc/index.php/lang/en/cat/2/news/57573

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 21:07

We shall see...

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 21:11

As the old pop song says,



Revoloution is no solution. Think,,,,,,,Just what is possible?





Never mind what isint!



wynyardman

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 22:48

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/domestic/10705490.asp





Now i am confused.Is this a live article or an old one,

Paul.



Wyn,

You old rocker.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 23:10

I think it's an old one.



Richard

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/11/2009 23:12

See what İ mean they've got us all going again....İ have just watched BRT Turkish our lot say they have reached agreements on certain issues within the chapter on properties RoC seem to agree but still say alot of work to be done but are closer. İt just depends who gets priority present resident or past. That will make or break it...we will just have to look and what is reported in the next few days...for what its worth..

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 07:32

Even if they reach agreement - which is very doubtful - it will still go to a referendum - and who would bet on the outcome of that?



The TCs after been spurned by the GCs in 2004 are highly unlikely to say yes! The GC anti-TC propagnada machine has been winding up the rhetoric to fever pitch in the ROC so don't hold your breadth with the GC saying yes!



This is, the last throw of the dice. The irony is that those who are in the process of negotiating on both sides are actually negotiating to lose their current positions - which may be explains why the negotiations are dragging on for so long!



It is hard to imagine given that the Annan plan was 'agreed' by both sides that after its failure that it would have taken such a long time to come to a revised version! The reality, I would suggest, is that there is neither the will on the part of politicians nor public support on either side - so it becomes political suicide whichever way you cut it - hence the stalling



Cont'd...

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 07:43

Cont'd...



Where does that leave us? I'd like to say up s**ts creek without a paddle - but this is an open forum



Turkey has elections coming up. The politicians are hedging their bets. If there is a solution - they can take credit for it; if no solution they will annex it and blame the GC - hence Turkey's current proactive role!



Then the options become limited.



1. Status quo.



2. Annexation of some kind by Turkey and de facto recognition by several countries who form part of the OIC (Organisation of Islamic Countries) and perhaps a few more.



The status quo is unlikely as Turkey cannot justify its financial support of the TCs to Turkish taxpayers once the TRNC is annexed. If, as is likely the OIC receognises the TRNC the embargo would have effectively ended!



The question then is whether the TRNC is prepared for such an outcome? My belief is that they are simply not prepared and either do not have the capacity nor the political will to deal with the new situation!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 07:55

What does that mean for those living in the TRNC?



It means a period of great uncertainty will be exacerbated by the dithering of the TRNC government who are ill-equipped and totally without the forsight to prepare for such an outcome!



Further, the TRNC government if told by Turkey to balance their books and find their own means of financial survival are likely to bite the hand which has been feeding them for so long - the foreigners and foreign investment. They will also more likely increase taxation to find the money to keep the present system in situ!



As I have argued before, the TRNC government is riddled with self-interest and the interest of a handful of influential business people. They are unable / unwilling to take the radical steps necessary to make the TRNC another 'Taiwan'!



The only option then remaining will be for Turkey to step in and dictate what should happen here and make wholesale changes to the way the TRNC has been run! Cont'd

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 08:05

Cont'd...



If the TC lose their status as the 'most favoured' citizen and competition ensues the TRNC will, IMHO be a better place!



However, don't hold your breadth. There will be many stops and starts between now and then! It is likely to take some years before the changes that are so long overdue will ripple through the TRNC and you can bet that the vested interests in the TRNC will do all in their power to stifle and stymie progress!



Can you imagine TC having to work a full day at the local authority? How about better developers and builders coming from outside the TRNC - how many local buidlers and developers will survive? They may even begin to understand the meaning of 'service quality' and giving the customer 'fair value for their money'; And the gravy train will have come to a shuddering halt - and not before time - and force people to earn money as opposed to sit back and wait for the property market to move up (speculation)!



Perhaps I dream too much? lol

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 08:27

If I may dream on....



Imagine...getting your title deeds in 6-8 weeks....the legal system working for the victim and not the perpetrator...no need for PTP....judges who cannot be bought or influenced....speeding cameras that actually work....people driving within the law....no more power cuts...water 24/7/365....telephone lines for any one who wants them....internet working at the speed paid for and uninterrupted....



....Utopia

MartinM


Joined: 03/10/2009
Posts: 166

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 09:19

Dream on

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 09:32

MSG Moover321

You do not dream you make very valid points apart from the internal mechanisms of the İsland which we should set aside for the moment as any change will only come with some from of resiloution.

The issue is Turkey’s real drive with its ‘Zero policy’ İ am in shock at all this reconcilition all over the place it is unprecedented. We are used to more nationalistic hardline approachs from Turkey. This is uncharted territory. Erdogun is a charasmatic P/M and Turkish and muslim orater he know’s exactly how to push the buttons of the populace. Ankara has improved relations with Syria, İraq the (PKK), Baku’s for the Nabucco pipeline project. Nagorno-Karabakh, and Armenia signing protocals.But relations with Israel have flounderd Davos and Arms. With this back drop Turkey’s military might and strategic importance for global energy Ankara only has to persuade its elite, judges, generals and bussines that its aim is to become a regional leader that the talk they li

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 09:35

they like..

Con

Where does that leave us in a very strong position. RoC cannot bung that old chestnut Turkey doesn’t want peace. İts looking really like whoever if there is no solution under the difined parameters gets up and walks away will be made the viilan of the peace so to speak. The wounded party will gain the moral high ground. İn light of Ankara Zero Policy and the new administration in Greece no one is going to get up. So it could well be that the final outcome will be a form of agreement left to the people to decide at a referendum which will be a close call if there is an agreement as it draws closer.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 10:07

Winslow:



1. I agree that Turkey has a 'Zero Policy'. It has adopted this 'changed' foreign policy agenda with the Armenian, Kurdish and TRNC issues.



2. That the adoption of this policy will inevitably show that Turkey has been 'proactive' in finding a solution to the Cyprus problem.



3. If, and it is a BIG IF - they reach agreement - it will go to a referendum. Here, I disagree with you. I do not believe that either side TCs or GCs will want unification. TCs because they were thwarted at the alter in 2004 and the GCs because they want nothing less than the total capitulation of TCs on the land and property issue.



4. When the dust settles, the ONLY viable alternative will be for an annexation (in what form is still open) but the upshot is that the TRNC will have the embargo lifted by many countries.



The question is whether the TRNC is ready to stand on its own feet without Turkey's financial support? IMHO, at the moment it is an emphatic NO! For the reasons I gave above

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 10:09

The TC's are in a 'cleft stick', whichever way one looks at this mess - they are getting so outnumbered by mainlanders, whom most wish 'to Hell and gone', but the 'rising tide of Turkification' must surely soon swamp them.



How much longer can Turkey continue to bankroll successive TRNC governments to the tune to which they've become so smugly accustomed?



Moover21's pragmatic assessment of a 'Utopian TRNC' is precisely what this new government should be legislating towards immediate implementation - failure to act now will 'close the lid on the coffin' for TRNC, as it currently exists in their temporary 'fools' paradise'.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 10:14

The TRNC will be in a strong position with respect to ROC on the issue of unification, but sadly, it will be in a weaker position to deal with the new realities on the ground!



If the TRNC was open to business for all on an open, transparent and fair basis - this part of the island will flourish - if it decided to keep its current policies of protectionism, croniasm, nepotism then sadly it will be much, much weaker!



I simply cannot see the current TRNC government taking the radical and necessary steps to open up the economy. May be they do not have the capacity, but IMHO they also do not have the will as they have deep seated self-interest and the interest of a few very influential TC business people!



Yes, I would like the dream to be a dream that can be realised as described in my earlier messages - but I simply cannot see this as a reality at least in the short to medium term!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 10:42

On the subject of 'reunification'; apart from anything else, it's doubtful that the Greek Cypriots are prepared, or willing, to share diminishing EU 'handouts' with the TC's - the GC's all need their latest Mercs and Porsche 'Cayenne's' as well - short answer: a quick referendum will surely 'put the kybosh' on this whole perennial farce.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 10:48

Tenakoutou:



Good point! But the EU will give a 'huge' amount to the TRNC if it was a 'yes' referandum vote But the GCs will want a piece of that too



I understand that even if there is a 'no' vote the TRNC citizens will be part of the EU and that money may be given for projects in the TRNC subject to changes in the system of governance! Seems like the EU is also dreaming

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 12:29

Moover



Subject to changes in governance. Given the choice would the establishment prefer aid which benifits all or the status quo that benefits they themselves.

As for the huge amount of aid, I think the EU taxpayer might have something to say about financially supporting a system as it stands in the TRNC without as you say, changes.

As for actually joining the EU, that could only be done if TRNC breaks from Turkey, and as I said before I dont think a population as small as Cyprus could take up two seats in EU.Think of all the bickering tween ROC and TRNC in future.



To join the EU one has to sign up to certain rules, what about discrimination for example ,in trnc it is institutionalised and will require major changes at the core of government,not easy to do overnight.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 13:13

Girne_29:



Correct. The EU will not give aid without specific changes in the system that the present TRNC government runs. However, politics is politics. After the failure of the Annan plan in 2004, the EU has "invested" some 259 Million Euros here - through its own agencies - but and it is an important but how much can be done here with the current system? So, there is benefit to those with vested interest irrepective of EU rules!



If the EU were to allow the TRNC to join the EU I think the ROC will veto it - or stifle it as it has support from Greece and others! It is not a question of how many people are here - but EU membership will mean open borders and much besides - which the ROC will not find acceptable!



Changes in the TRNC will be required in any case - and this is what I mean when I say the those currently in power and position of influence do not have the capacity nor the will to invoke the radical change needed to bring the TRNC to the requires standards

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 13:30

Msg 103. greylag. The result of the meeting Friday. Christofias said: The talks will continue for some weeks it is not a simple matter, we have made a move forward but still a lot to be done.

" I don't mean that has been progress but there is a certain convergence"

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 14:49

MSG M321 G29 Ten

The first thing that must take place before any of the senarios you all mention is to know were we stand vis-à-vis. Agreement. Yes or no what a difference a day make’s if you asked me this question last week İ would have said its a no..no..noway. But now İ am not so sure. My opinion is this.

Cyprus has become a thorn in the side of both Greece and Turkey they have left it to the respective parties in the main to find there own way within the guidlines they have set them. But they can’t get it together. İ believe if in some form all four sit down together Gr Tu TC RoC the two big boys having a lot to prove for their own political aspirations will do the trick. Papandreou has staked his political carrer on his foriengn policy objectivesİf Greece prompts RoC it will get the solution it wants in the Agean and the opening of ports. A major coup for him. Then Turkey will remove a major hurdle and gain more support for accesion if it continues its EU ag

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 14:50

agenda cementing its links as an energy hub and able to deal with big energy suppliers in Europe. İt will be able to sell energy form countries that have difficultly in the region the consumate middleman and reduce its who economically burden as a net importer of energy. Then the Europeans can sell it to their perspective electorate in instead of all the negative muslim swamping retoric. İf RoC and T/C don’t pay attention to the bigger picture. And its a bostonlefkosa tea party turnout they they run the risk of getting six of the best. So the conculsion is if the four sit down there will be agreement if not its a bostonlefkosa tea party.. watch this space...

con

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 14:51

As for malfeasance in office that can be dealt with as time goes on…first we have to know where we stand. İ have to disagree with you many in our government are highly educated and are fully aware of the need for more transparancy in government. They have a burning desire to make things better that does not mean to get rid of the old guard it just means making things better and rebuılding the reputation that has been so severley damaged. The old guard has protected us all… all be it at a price. İ cannot emphasise this point enough that we are all seen as usurpers and worse are the ex-pats and others who have taken advantage. Left to RoC it would be… by your leave.. good night vienna. Do not berate the old guard to much they are not perfect and you may say they were protecting there own interests but all yours were… throw in to boot…. But İ do agree they have run their course it is time for change…we will have a better idea as time moves on as to… where we stand.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 15:12

Winslow:



I see the argument you make but I regret there is just not the will or the popular support on either side of the divide and all parties G / T/ TC / GC know this! They simple cannot get two parties who have an intense dislike for each other at best - to be partners. The wedding was over in 1960's. It took till 1974 to get the separation order and despite all the help of the UN marriage couselling service there is really no basis on which the mariage of TC and GC can be resurrected without sowing the seeds for future problems!



The 'only' solution of a marriage of a kind is 'two state solution' with a federal government. Even that seems at best illusionary at this juncture!



If you want to know where each party stands just look at what happened in 2004. Nothing much has changed since then except that the 'bribes' which the EU enticed TC to vote yes, never materialised!The result of any referandum will be a negative on one or other if not both sides!







Cont'd...

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 15:15

Cont'd..



"Old gurad protecting my interest" - Somehow that is just too hard to swallow! As a foreigner here - I have to pay more for just about everything and then get cheated out of my property by the banks, the developers, and yes, by TCs! Luckily, this doesn't apply to me directly - as I am renting before deciding whether to invest here or not!



But I know of enough people who have lost their life's fortune to those of the old guard and their cohorts - and I cannot see them seeing it the way you do!



It is not just time for the old gurad to go, but for there to be a root and branch reform of the whole system!



I can understand from a TC perspective that in the early days they needed to have the tough love to protect them and get through the upheaval with the GC!



But that was 35 years ago not yesterday!



For the last 10 years change was on the agenda and what have the TRNC govenment done - Nothing!



As for the younger people - cont'd...

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 15:23

Cont'd...



As for the younger people - just take a good look around you and you will see what they value - fast cars (which they don't know how to drive), lazy afternoons in the cafes, half-day jobs, designer clothes and a total materialistic outlook!



I cannot see the young well educated you mention taking the radical steps to change the culture of TCs which is live for today, take what you can get, however you can get it and F*** the rest!



I cannot see the TC old gurad or the young guard protecting interests of anyone besides themselves!



As for what would happen to ex-pats if ROC took over - well, that is a bit of a red herring! I cannot imagine they would be in any worse position than many are in already!



The only way that the TRNC government will change is when there is enough 'pain' and that can only come from Turkey saying no more handouts and foreign investors saying we will not invest here until you get your act together!



Then maybe you will get real CHANGE

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 17:20

MSG M321

Let me just say İ want a two state solution we cannot live or work to together on this İsland at any level. İ have never wanted a marriage. But if Turkey and Greece continue we are going to get a shotgun wedding of some sort like it or not. The Annan plan is history people are only interest in their self interests of today refering to it now is a waste of time in the eyes of many And don’t forget the RoC signed it and then campained against it.

Once these politicans start opening their gobs and singing their praises of how things will change İ know my lot the cash register brain will kick into affect. As you say they are learning materialism at an extreme pace its treatening the laid back idealic lifestyle we are all here for. Flashing the TLLLLLLLL signs at people is a big motivator and the possibility of Turkey removing the troops will remove the biggest fear the otherside have.They will sleep safe in their beds at night something they have not done in

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 17:21

years.

con

Protecting interests many people have come to this İsland for many reasons if they had problems in the UK or other countries. ‘Bring your cash and we will stash’ in the main any paper work went straight over a shoulder and into the bin. Here no questions were asked and when authorities came a knocking they were told f…off. No extradition unless it was really an extreme one. İt dosent make it right but we had to take what we could get. Many people have been riped off yes and İ have said İ went through it to and went to war to get it back. And you fail to realise many came here and have done well thank you very much. You just got to have your wits about you and when in Rome do as the Romans. Reform is required we have a young population and a growing education industry. Education is a cultural thing here to do well in education is expected. İt is a bit off a taboo not to do well.

con

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/11/2009 17:22

con

And when İ say young in government İ mean in their 40/50. on top of their Turkish education they are British uni all the way to Oxford and Cambridge. You will always get the delingquents hanging around but the dedicated ones that may come through with an educated social justice view as a result of the growth in education and modern technology will engendar social change in the future. Turkey to wants us to stand on our own two feet and so do we but economically isolated dosen’t help.Yes people have become accustomed to the hand outs And they have been warned it can’t go on forever Turkey isn’t callıng for an end to isolation for political correctness purposes on the world stage only. İt wants to balance the books and save the million of dollars it sends. And the last point investors you say large multi nationals your Mcdonalds to your M&S are put off investing here İ say they are not allowed to invest as a result of embargoes.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 09:12

Winslow:



Of course the embargoes have affected whether people invest here or not. However, ask yourself this question once the embargoes have been lifted - foreign investors will be free to invest here - and what will they see? Corruption? Petty minded government officials? More red tape than there are TL notes in circulation? A legal system that has grown fat on kickbacks and bribes? Infrastruacture that is at best creaking at the margins if not completely obsolete? Attitude of the TC that they have a 'special citizen status? Unfair employment practices? Service quality that would make the old Soviet Union look good? Investment regulations which would be better suited to the stone age than the 21st Century? Banks which spend more time chatting with friends on the telephone than attending to clients? And greed that would put Greko to shame?



I think you maybe do not want to see that the TRNC and the TC here are simply not ready for the lifting of the embargo!



Cont'd...

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 09:19

Cont'd...



The TRNC and the TC are simply fooling themselves if they think that investors will come here rather than say the Far East which offers better regulation, hard working labour force, more security, less corruption, better service quality ethic etc.;



I don't want to sound totally negative but outside of natural features - location, climate and geography I see little that the TRNC government or TC have to offer to prospective investors!



You said that many foreign business investors have done well here - can you name them?



I would suggest you could proably count them on the fingers of two hands at the most outside of those who came here to money launder and escape criminal prosecution overseas!



I have said it is attitude and NOT aptitude which gives you altitude.



The TC may have the education but as for the attitude - I think we are a long, long way from true radical change which is what is needed



I want the TRNC to succeed, but I cannot see how

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 12:35

MSG M321

İf embargoes are lifted the TRNC will change social change is a natural phenomana and in this instance a definate for instance some kind of agreement will force external change in internal Government and the economy to what extent and where remains to be seen but it will force change that is the whole point of this. These are my beliefs whether they can be adopted by our government İ will always campagain for this. And the more that do the more chance of success.

Off course infasturcture quality is creeking there has been limited investment we have been reliant on Turkey to balance the books as the tax revenue is insuffient in terms of expenditure. Most goes on wage and pensions. İn yes big beauracratic central government. But the people are feed up with this and there is debate that’s why the last administration lost.

con

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 12:37

And in the past officials weren’t so bothered if they were sacked for malpractice they were still entitled now they lose their pensions so they are more careful. İt hasn’t solved the problem and İ to get fustrated at simple tarkes that can and should be done on time aren’t when there are three people to do a one man job. The people are ready for the lifting of embargoes it is the infasturcture and legislation that will have to be brought up to speed.

İnvestors the new Marina being built the Lewis family İ believe. Credit West bank and Alpet garages Altinbas Family originally from Turkey. Many banks and offshore banks have foriengn investors. The New Merit Hotel Chain Other Hotel and casinos have foriengn investors. The new Savoy Brithish partners. Nicosia Betting they are British as are other betting chains many 100s of Restuarants and clothing retailers certain beach clubs the new bowling complex invested aparently 5 million they have come from the UK.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 12:38

con

There are lots more that have done well and are investng hoping to do well. İ agree a lot more investment is needed that’s why the ‘invisible hand’with the correct legislation in place will always prevail. İn bussines as in property you do your research and invest in bussiness best suited to the economical enviroment. İt would be pointless for instance to invest in an iron and steel plant where would you source? So you invest to the strenghts. As a small İsland it means certain industries are not needed. It may seem like over capacity in others..Market forces will determine.You identify a need in the market and fufill that market for the purposes of profit. And this is what will drives primary investment now and in the future.



con

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 12:39

con

Greed yes but greed is everywhere and as we have said so is corruption. İ really agree with you about stamping out the bearucratic mess. İ sincerely hope this new government will make strides they are trying in some respects but it is a slow process of evoulution. Aptitude is an inate chracteristic those that have it will pay the price there are a lot of people who do not have it. Radical can be dangerous and cause more problems as certain aspects are untested and may not suit. Change will come….nothing stays the same…we move on somethings are here to stay and some are not.



winslow

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 14:51

Wow, I have to say that this is one of the most interesting and informative threads I have ever seen on Cyprus44. I have learnt a lot. Thank you to Winslow and Moover in particular. You guys know lots.



I just will throw a few bits in to the mix. I agree whole heartily with Moover about the potential solutions i.e openness and transparency, competition etc, but I do think that it has been hard for the TRNC.



To develop a strong country you need a sense of certainty. Certitude that you exist now and that you will continue to endure. How can you move forward or plan with any indubitableness

, when you are not recognised by other countries and your demise is all but imminent. For example, if you live in Guzelyert how can you plan for a future. In 2004 those living in the region were packing their bags, then they were staying and now they have no idea about what their future looks like.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 14:53

Many TC’s live in properties which they know are not theirs. They have no idea if they will be uprooted or not. Under these circumstances, psychological cultural development becomes more difficult and it is more likely that people will live for the moment and nepotism will rule.



Opportunities in the TRNC are few and far between. If you have any talent you realise that you achieve your potential only by living abroad. TRNC has suffered from a brain drain.



I suspect only a few have benefited from the property market. Those who have are not putting their money back in to the TRNC economy, they are investing their money abroad. You can’t blame them but it makes it harder for the TRNC to develop. When South Korea developed it’s economy it did so by developing a protectionist policy. They did so against Western advice. One of the things that South Korea did was to punish people by death if they moved their capital out of the country. A bit extreme but it worked.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 14:54

I also suspect that there is real confusion around the property issue. 76% of TC’s feel that GC land should not have been sold to foreigners. Again, how can you build a strong infrastructure when there is guilt around ownership of the land and you know that most of the land is not yours. At the same time if you are a TC you probably don’t want foreigners to have the best land. This would be true for every country. All countries fear foreigners and long for a real sense of their own community.



It’s a bit unfair to compare the TRNC to Taiwain. Taiwain have more certainty about their future because they have Western support. Taiwain doesn’t suffer the embargoes that the TRNC suffers from. Taiwain can even trade with China. In fact, 25% of it’s exports are to China and 18% to Hong Kong.

At the same time, due to their history East Asians have an exceptional appetite for knowledge. 40% of students at Berkley university are East Asian yet they only make up 4% of the US population.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 14:54

Taiwain has some of the highest literary rates in the world, higher than Turkey.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 15:31

This is one of the best threads that I have ever read on here, as ilovecyprus has said, moover321 and winslow know an awful lot about NC, and you are right about Taiwain ilovecyprus, they have been able to trade with the biggie China for several years..

Keep it comming all of you as its good to read others knowledge on how they think or know how NC will develope or not in the future.....

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 16:36

So after this interesting thread are we any wiser as to what will happen to the TRNC when the talks have failed? Sadly I think that things will get worse before they get better. Over the years I have often found that what happens in Southern Cyprus is mirrored by the North. Not surprising as both areas are using the same draconian legal system responsible for not safeguarding or promoting any investment to the island and certainly making buying property a risky adventure. Both have been seen as being unable or unwilling to act when the most blatant corruption in the property sector has occurred.





Whilst most are aware that the title deed scam in the South has been widely publicised both within Cyprus and Britain, what is also alarming is that the GC's are also accused of having a similar attitude to the one often described by uses of this forum.

See "financial Ruin is just a rip off away" on



http://www.cyprus-property-action-group.net/press/Financial-ruin.html



cont

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 16:44

The results of this action? (or should I say inaction)



According to the Land Registry Department, property sales have nose-dived 52% in the first eight months of this year. The end-of-year outlook is unlikely to change with Cyprus suffering its worse slump in over a decade.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 17:39

Winslow:



I understand that as a TC and a person who has lived through some hard times here it is important for non-TC to keep things in perspective and I hope I have tried to do that - albeit with success on others can judge!



Regarding the 'invisible hand'! If I may say that I have studied macro-economics at Master's level and am quite conversant with the approach you have taken, economics in the end is very good at explaining the past but seldom is it an accurate predictor of the future! If you have 3 economists in a room, you would probaly have 5 opinions all based on assumptions! Economic modelling is more of an art than a science especially when the mix is with socio-political issues.



To that extent I would caution the notion that 'the invisible hand' can change much! It is people that make policy. It is people who were and are responsible for the world recession we are currently experiencing glabally and it is people who made the TRNC what it is today!



Cont'd...

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 17:49

msge 150



Hi Bradus



Hope you are well



It must be a strange position for Southern Cypriots to be in. Much of their livelihood, the tourist and property trade is financed by British Nationals (as well as other nationals). For Cypriots to survive and prosper they have to allow foreign nationals to tread freely on their soil. To Cypriots this might feel like a foreign invasion. Most countries dont take kindly to prosporous foreigners treating ones home as a playground. It doesn't help that the British have interefered in their history and the Cypriots have to rely on us to feed them. It just heightens the injustice and their feeling of insignificance. I am not trying to defend the Cypriots, just trying to understand why they do what they do.



At the end of the day, it might need the 'whole deck of cards to come tumbling down' in order that the system can eventually flourish. Anyway, it looks like it is heading for a fall and climate change is only going to add to their woes.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 17:49

Cont'd...



I know that the TRNC had a hard time from the 1970's and under an embargo is not easy. However, the TRNC had more than a helping (real) hand from Turkey. Goods come to the TRNC via Turkey. It has had a huge influx of relatively cheap labour from the mainland. It has a well educated TC population. It has a great geographical location, climate. These are real resources. If necessity is the mother of invention then NC has had good reason to be really successful!



Why is it that after 35 years we are still addressing the current situation in the context of what happened then? Yes, we need to take cognisance of the past, but we also need to plan for the future and any government worth its weight would have done a lot more than that which have been achieved by the TRNC!



If I am being critical it is constructive critiscism. I am saying that the TRNC and the TC need to wake up and smell the coffee! Success is something which is earned and not an entitlement!



Cont'd...

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 18:06

Cont'd...



The current situation requires a proactive appraoch by those in power and places of influence and all what we have got is the same rhetoric as we have heard for the last 35 years!



Now on the issue of foreign investment. You list a few "successful" investors...but you need to unravel each of these and look at what that investment actually brings to the TRNC? And given that you list 5,6,7,8 or so over 35 years I think should tell you all you need to know about the true foreign investment climate here.



If you were to take the TRNC governments own figures you will see most of the inward investment has come in the form of property (land and fixed assets) and most of that has been from the expat community.



You can check the information here: http://www.devplan.org/Frame-eng.html



Take away the ex-pat investment and the subsidy from the Turkish government and you are left with a very sad picture of the economy! If you adjust for their total spend.. cont'd

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 18:13

Cont'd...



...i.e. if you include their expenditure on other goods and services the situation looks more bleak! Further, if you look at the value of that investment - it has fallen sharply. Not just because of the global credit crisis but simply because the 2003-2005 rise in prices was a classic asset bubble stimulated by the Annan plan!



Real investment in real GDP terms has been falling (Consumer Price Index in 2006 alone was at 19.6%)!



My argument has never been about numbers and I am sure you will have an alternative perspective on the same. Nonetheless, the real question should be to ask those who have invested here what they feel about their investment and has it grown in real terms! Sadly, the answer to that question emotions aside, is a a categorical, NO!



This is what I meant when you allude to many foreigners have found success here.



If you unravelled the deals made with the likes of those on 'big' infrastructure projects...cont'd

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 18:21

Cont'd..



..you are likely to find the terms of trade are heavily weighted in favour of such large investors. How that benefits the real economy is hard to see. It may have a local impact on prices of land / property around the project but that is all! The real question which remains the elephant in the room is what was paid and by whom to get the necessary approval! Here we are back to square one!



You assumption that it is market forces at work here in the TRNC is IMHO a false premise.



Just given the political nature of what the TRNC represents as a 'country' embargoed - by and large if there are any market forces they are surely distorted and heavily politicised and if I may say, IMHO inherently corrupt!



TRNC has limited resources is true. How these have been utilised over the last 35 years and particularly in the last 10 years has been to the benefit of a few and to the detriment of many, including foreign investors and not least to the detriment in the long term of TCs

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 18:29

So what should we do?



1. When you are in a hole the first thing you do is to stop digging. You say that a radical change is 'uncertain' in its outcome, I say continuing on the present path has been proven to be fatal to the long term interests of all in the TRNC save a few who have a "special status" here! Just take a look at the TRNC's own figures and you will see what I mean!



2. You need a new strategic direction. Policies like having transparency, accountability, legitimacy and responsibilty are not as radical as they sound. They have been tried and tested many times over. It only feels like it is radical when we are starting from our current position in the TRNC



3. TCs need to ask themselves where do they see themselves in 5, 10, 15 years from now? Just by asking this you will change the shape and nature of the debate.



4. TRNC needs to plan for a future without protectionism, croniasm and nepostism. This is a minimum.



5. Politicians MUST be held to account Cont'd

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 18:37

IloveCyprus:



Oddly, I love Cyprus too



There are only 3 certainties in life 1. Death; 2. Tax; 3. Change.



I am sure most will agree with 1 and 2.



However 3 is the most important in living life and dealing with issues as they come.



Granted the TRNC had a 'tough time' and the issue of property and the guilt surrounding the same may have contributed to the behaviour of the TC's, but that said, nothing that has happened could not have been predicted and that the longer the process of isolation continued the more certain it should have been to anyone that at some point they needed a strategic plan to deal with the issues.



Instead of using the uncertainty as a catalyst for constructive policy, it has been used as an excuse to allow corruption to flourish and exploit all and sundry who are not TCs and even in many cases to exploit TC's who are lower down the pecking order



I do not buy for a moment that what has happened to the TRNC over say the last 10 years...cont'd

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 18:49

Cont'd..



...was unpredictable. Politicians are elected to do a job and a part of that job entails making hard decisions about the future and having policies in place that can effectively deal with issues and changes as they appear on the horizon!



Clearly, the political elite have been more concerned about their own interests then the collective interest.



If the issue of property is a problem now, it was also a problem in 1974, 1984, 1994, 2004 etc.;



Is it not the job of elected officials to deal with such issues? Could they have not envisaged that the GC may claim for the "apparent" rights at some point and to plan accordingly?



Giving vast tract of such land as was not designated to others sowed the seeds of destruction of the TRNC whilst lining the pockets of a few TCs and those in positions of power and influence! Creating a system that exploits ex-pats wholesale!



This is not policy - it is suicide!



Given that we are where we are the question is what next...?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 18:58

IloveCyprus:



Cont'd... What next...



I have outlined what I think is likely to happen next (see above) and would add that to an extent Bradus is correct is saying 'there will be greater pain in the short run before any improvement'.



The question isn't that we should compare the TRNC to Taiwan - it was a comment on what the politicians have themselves been saying should the current talks fail!



My argument was that to be like Taiwan we need radical change and that if the words of the politcal elite matched their actions then the TRNC may stand a chance!



You do not need certainty to plan. You need flexibility in your plans to deal with uncertainties.



I would say - "No one plans to fail, but most of us fail to plan" and that in a nutshell has been the "crime" (aside of the endemic corruption) of successive TRNC governments with the collusion of Turkey to an extent!



The TRNC can have any policy it likes - but at the moment it has no policy at all!



If the talks fail..

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 19:09

Cont'd ...



So we come full circle.



If the talks fail what is the policy of the TRNC government? What is plan 'B' or 'C'?



Has it got any idea what to do next? If Turkey and Greece decide to divide the island - and the embargo is lifted - how will the TRNC cope? What if the Turkish government refused more subsidies? Can the TRNC go it alone? What are its 5, 10, 15 year goals?



Shouldn't any government think about such issues and the future of its people?



Maybe they have a plan, I don't know.



However, if their past performance is anything to go by it will be more fire fighting - higher taxes, protectionism, nepotism, 'ripping off' any small foreign investor, wining and dining any 'big' investor the knowledge of a 'pay off' somewhere down the line....just more of the same.



What will happen to the GC land? How many more court actions will there be? How many more expats will leave? How many more dreams will be shattered?



I hope I am wrong...but I fear I may be right

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 19:51

msge 159



We agree on our love of Cyprus. I suspect we concur on a lot more too



I subscribe to your view. All of your suggestions are first class and I find myself agreeing with much of your analysis and all your suggestions for change. In addition, I would also add that I would love to see the TRNC develop the Toyota model of 'Purpose, method and measure'. That way they can make dramatic improvements to their government services and at the same time make enormous cost savings.



To not change is suicide for the TRNC, however, there have been lots of highly educated and well meaning Northern Europeans telling the world what to do, but we have greatly underestimated where people are in their evolutionary development. We force democracy on to countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, countries that have had no history of democracy and expect them to change overnight.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 19:52

We push rational western models in to Africa but we fail to understand the African mentality. Voodoo spirits and the magical world is the real reality for many African people. Rasit Pertev the NC politician recommends the same changes as you, but he has also described the NC government as being closer to an African government than a Western one.



You are right you don’t need certainty to plan, you need flexibility, but flexibility is a mindset. The American and Northern European mind has embraced flexibility by giving up certainty (well some have, certainly not all have). In many parts of the world certainty is where they want to be. Many want the certainty that comes from worshipping god and Allah . I am not saying this is right, I’m just saying we need to be very aware of what we are dealing with and we need to pace their experiences before moving them to what we consider to be a better way of living.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 19:54

Psychological development, one where the individual develops to a new level of morality, to grasp ones potential, to chart new waters and to realise the enormous potential from building strong foundations often starts with an epiphany. Unfortunately, to achieve such a breakthrough normally you have to experience that your present way of thinking and behaving causes you immense misery and pain. Unfortunately too, many in the TRNC have not had exposure to foreign travel which encourages new ways of thinking.



Moover, I am with you and I really really wish you were running the TRNC. I think things would start to look very positive indeed

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 20:31

Thank you everyone for your comments lets just say we are all contributing to this debate and İ to have learned a lot from all of your postings İ am deeply honared to participate. So many points have been mentioned today İ don’t Know where to start again so..İ will do this one..

M321 says

Economics in the end is very good at explaining the past but seldom is it an accurate predictor of the future! Economic modelling is more of an art than a science especially when the mix is with socio-political issues. To that extent I would caution the notion that 'the invisible hand' can change much! IMHO inherently corrupt

Las Vagas and Adlantic ciity developed as an industry based on rackatering during prohibition mob money created and industry today that generates billıons in tax revenues and empolyes thousands not only that it is now owned by multı nationals MGM, harrra and individuals such Wim Ross and Trump who are lauded for their investment.

con

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 20:32

İ dont see anyone telling them they are wrong considering its development. Lets go a little bit closer to home the development of the Costa Del sol Where did that all eminate from British crimnals in the 60s who committed armed robberies in the UK and feld there with suitcases full of cash. İ never saw the Spanish authorities arrest them at Malaga airport and send them back they where protected. They invested their money in property construction and their villas and look what happened to there legacy. Thousands followed and have holiday homes there. The Algarve dont tell me all those golf courses and marinas where built with donations from the Church of England. What about Leictenstien & Switzerlands Banking İndustry and tax evasion. What about İsle of man Jersey and Guernsay Crown dependancies with Billions of offshore trusts protecting Corporate tax Evasion with the Classic adage ‘İts not tax evasion just a little of tax avoidance’ to jusify themselves.

con

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 20:33

The Oligarchs such as Abramovich who now reside in the Uk who obtained the licences during the Yeltsin era for a pıtence made billions. When Abramovich flew over London in his helicopter and said ’İ want that one i don’t care how much’ reffering to Chelsea no one bated an eyelid in the UK establishment about the provinance of his funds so long as he stashed the cash in Uk banks. He is a hero in the eyes of the chelsea faithfull. He started this whole football revoulution in the British national game. So you see if we here model ourselves using these as exammples. İt is possible the the future of these industry based on funds that owe there provinance to the underworld will enchance our İsland and you better belief that the past administrations knew this and you better believe they would take no lectures from other countries that have industries that have developed this way.

con

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 20:34

The ‘invisable hand’ coupled with legislation being implemented over time legitimising these industries will help them grow. İt does not justify these industry but whats good for them is good for us. We will take FDİ in any way shape or form when we have to try and sustain our economy and people while embargoes are in place we have no chioce its a cruel world at times. İt may be that the fruits of all this fall to a select few but they do create empolyment and other froms of stakeholders. Which is better than nothing. People cannot walk around waring rose coloured tinted glasess hoping the heavens will open up and pour billions into their economies you play the cards you are dealt when in times of need at micro and macro levels. That is the way you survive...

Ps İ would vote for you to M321.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 20:59

166 - 169



Winslow, I enjoyed your post



Tax evasion is a major problem around the world. Conservative estimates have suggested that the worlds richest have 11.5 trillion sitting in off shore accounts. This has allowed them to avoid 250 billion dollars each year in tax. We could solve quite a few problems if this tax was made available for social problems. Governments like France have made a fuss about closing these off shore accounts but not much action as yet. Britain controls many off these off shore accounts - virgin, cayman islands, Jersey etc



Perhaps the TRNC could learn a few tricks from Jersey. Much trade passes through Jersey, partly in order to shift profits offshore but also to disguise the true ownership of the companies involved in the trade. The British government now reckons that at least half of the worlds trade now passes - on paper - through tax havens. There are some people getting very very rich and not paying anything back to society - take, take take

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 21:35

Hi All,

When i started this post i didnt expect so many constructive comments and it has been a pleasure to read them.Time and time again postings on the talks and the islands history turn in to slanging matches and are removed.Thus far this posting has been allowed to run and long may it continue.So what will happen then,



Paul.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 23:06

Thanks to all for your comments and thougtful responses and to Paul for starting the debate and Winslow and IloveCyprus in particular.



Problems shared are often problems halved



I don't see myself standing for elections in the TRNC or elsewhere. The trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected



I prefer to ask the difficult questions and float solutions



Sometimes people say, 'if it ain't broke, why fix it?' My reply is quite simple - if you don't break it you will never know the possibilities



Often a system continues long after its sell by date - and those in power and positions of influence continue simply because they have been 'institutionalised'. Not because they are doing a good job - but because the alternative, if there is one, is no better!



As Einstein has said: "Insanity: is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result".



Change is difficult but it can be achieved. You just need to have the will / desire

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
08/11/2009 23:30

newlad, its been a pleasure to read and learn from this thread, well done for starting it, and thanks.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 02:16

I would like to suggest an alternative solution to the cyprus problem

it is that there is...no solution as such, yet surprisingly, life continues



less cynical than it sounds and certainly not intended to be fatuous,

just like very many of the world's most popular issues,

the division of cyprus may not be "resolvable" in the forseeable future



this is not to say that there is a complete absence of goodwill,

only that the two sides have very different objectives don't they?

funnily enough this is also why the talks were hobbled before they started

not that such knowledge gives me any kind of warm glow



I do not feel it right and proper to aportion blame for who has been intransigent:

but as my late headmaster bitterly remarked over a particularly graphic mural on the loo wall,

"we may never catch them but they know who they are"



micro state? you got one

turkish takeover? possible, but probability unknown

trnc stumbling on? rather likely

taiwanisation? eventually

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 20:54

MSG 171Posible Allernatives

1.Total partition all borders closed RoC in EU TRNC isolated.

2.A continuation of the status quo as is today.

3.A form of Cyprusiation modeled from aspects of Twanisation and Kosoviastion.

4.Agreement unification RoC TRNC Bi Communial Federation all in EU.

5.Two separate soveriengn states independent.

1 view

Politically Christofias and Talat are negotiators with identical left wing ideological backgrounds and can forge a settlement. From this prespective İ have no doubt these leaders are committed to a settlement because Christofias and Talat would be the first to hold presidencies or they will both lose elections and be replaced by hardliners who will partition the island. The election victory of Papandreou has added to the impteus in culmination with Erdogans zero policy. The the Aegean ports and EU accession will all be up for grabs giving settlement momentum and an added dimension.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 20:57

con

The EU deadline T/Cypriot elections will also act as a catalyst.

Economically RoC and TRNc have been negatively affected by the global crisis the holiday tourist and property market have declined. Unemployment is 5.5% in RoC T/C is also suffering. İ will also say in this scenario reunification will enhance tourism other industries and investment across the whole İsland. The short-term costs would be minimal compared to the long term benefits for RoC and T/C companies.The property deadlock would be resolved allowing domestic and foreign investment predominantly in the north.

2.view

44 meetings have led to no progress they are still no closer in discussing many issues property, government sharing of power security settlers, Opinion on our side is waning against reunification Talat will be defeated in April Eroglou, will assume the helm and go for a two-state solution.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 20:59

con

Christofias has his own problems from within his party and the centrist Democratic party and influential individuals. And RoC joining the EU in 2004 has had a negative affect on the TRNC populace

Deadlines are being bounded about which RoC are rejecting and is unhelpfull at this juncture. G/Cypriots aren’t convinced of benefits of a federal state they would have to finance a large portion per capita income is double in the south. Any form of exchange implies “recognition” in certain circles. The property issue who takes precedence former or present. Settler RoC call it a “massive colonisation’ to change the demograpy “Turkifying” the İsland and the 30/40.000 troops Will not be resolved. Neither leader is willing to a compromise as the ramifications in there community would be far to great

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 21:00

con

İ personally opt for a blend 3 & 5 for TRNC. We could debate each option but it would take hours simplistically a blend of option 3 & 5 offers the chance for our community to be administered solely by our community preventing any potential by partisam infighting and bickering that will surely arise from nationalists on both sides of the divide if there is reunification. Greek Cypriots are not interested in reunifying extending Turkish Cypriots the benefits in their minds to be derived from membership in the European Union at this juncture.

How will we know what’s happening well this is the clue. İf we see a flurry of activity up and down the diplomatic mediteraen morter way with green and red lights flashing then you can bet they will both be coherst into agreement or some sort of joint settlement. İf the diplomat gocart parks up then were both going it alone...

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 21:03

VOTE FOR ME, YOUR NEW KIWI PRESIDENT TO RESOLVE ALL TRNC PROBLEMS WITHIN ONE YEAR!



Richard

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 21:13

Sorry Guys.



Everything points to..... a microstate as a protectorate of Turkey.



Look up in Wikopedia microstate and protectorate.........Now in the absense of a positive alternative...



and given that the International Community, are sick to their high teeth. with The Cyprus Problem......



and America want Turkey in the EU. And the importance of Turkey as a buffer between East and West.



And Turkey have the strategically important, water pipeline.......Give me a break!



Microstate TRNC (Internationally recognised) but a Protectorate of Turkey. (exchange land and compensation all round)





wynyardman (Just my views, thats all)

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 21:21

This is how i see it panning out.Christofias and Talat will carry on with the talks (and good on em) fortunateley or unfortunateley,depending on which way you view the situation.The talks will carry on until April 2010.Talat will then lose the election to the guy that is more hard line (sorry his name escapes me)two states will then be created.End of story.Just my opinion,anyone agree,

Paul.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 21:29

Looks like a win,win situation Wyn,

Paul.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 21:33

A wyn wyn situation Paulie.



Trust me!!



wyn

andy-f


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 1256

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 22:34

my brother inlaw lives just over the pond from our place in the TRNC a place called balek. he has lived in mainland turkey for a year . when he popped over to blighty last week he told me that northern cyprus is in the news all the time and that he had started to follow it with interst scince we decided to buy here. his view is it will end up part or in some part of turkey, he also said most turks dont want to be in the EU?



there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge before any outcome to this long drawn out problem, last week it was reported a pro group of greek americans have filed a lawsuite in the US high court for billions of dollers compo because the US sold the military hardware used to invade the northern third of cyprus.



andy

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
09/11/2009 23:56

Winslow, Andy-f, IloveCyprus:



I guess we will all know soon enough what the outcome will be!



The question I would like to be addressed is whatever the outcome - is the TRNC ready for the change?



What do you guys think of the preparedness of the TRNC for the new realities?

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
10/11/2009 14:10

MSG 321question I would like to be addressed is whatever the outcome - is the TRNC ready for the change?



For me this is the biggest parradox how will change influence the traditional values that binds our society and İsland together that many of us love so much and will be errored by an influx of westernisation.

Many of us at present can not only think about the villages that we owe our ancestry to but still go there and talk with relatives and see where our forefathers were born. There is something surreal in this a sense of peace a sense of belonging it is like time has stood still. İt must be the same for the ex-pat community when you return to the UK to visit friends and family. İ can only say that the UK developes much faster and it is constantly said that people no longer know their nieghbour ‘the countries gone to pot its time to move’ is the adage as daily social change occurs.İ suppose the older generation need peace and solitude after years of hardwo

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
10/11/2009 14:11

hardwork. That’s why they look for the idilic peace and solitude İslands like ours offer. They are buttrest from the hustle and bustle. Please do not get me wrong industrial societies are just as important to make the human race function. But there comes a time when enought is enought for some.

The populace here and in many simmilar İslands are constantly bombared by the immages of westernisation and are being introduced to its materialism. İt is not a question of is TRNC ready for the change? change is being trust upon us leaving us no allternative but to change. One as an individual can only retain as much of his or her heritage for when it is gone it is extinct a sad prospect....



What do you guys think of the preparedness of the TRNC for the new realities?

con

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
10/11/2009 14:13