Ministry of Defence Bonusus

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 09:33

What are the feelings on here with the news that civilian workers at the Ministry of defence have receive £47 million in bonuses this year and since the war in Iraq started have received almost £300 million in bonuses ?

My feeling are that every politician and the civilian employee at MOD should be taken out to Afghanastan and used as human mine/IED detecters and in that way the can actually be serving the troops.

The person who permits this to happen must be the same one who gave the tax payers money to the banks so they could get their bonuses.

As an ex service veteran I get so angry when I read these things and even more so this week after having been to the Service at Waynes Keep and seen the rows of white crosses and the headstones.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 09:44

Hi Carndi I totally agree with you. It just beggars belief. It would be better spent equiping the milatary with the correct tools for the job x

beeches


Joined: 17/03/2009
Posts: 134

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 10:15

Everyone who works for the MOD contributes to carrying out UK defence policy throughout the world. Everyone deserves to be paid for the work they do. Civilian workers in the MOD are paid a lot less than their military counterparts and, in fact, many work in jobs that the military can't do. The bonus system is very unpopular with civilain workers and was introducd as a way of keeping main salaries low. You should be criticising the politicians who decide how much money is spent on equipment etc for soldiers rather than people who are trying to earn a living.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 10:23

I am sorry but I have to disagree. I have recently retired from the forces after 28 years and my wife was an MOD civil servant for almost 22 years. The 'bonuses' that are being referred to were introduced a few years ago in order to counter the ridiculously low pay increases that MOD civil servants were awarded. Not all civil servants are awarded them and they are based on meeting criteria above and beyond that normally expected. The use of the word 'bonus' is a very emotive term at the moment as just about everyone relates it to the huge awards given to bankers. The vast majority of the 'bonuses' awarded to MOD civil servants amount to £1000 before tax (about £750 after tax). Many lower grade civil servants are paid less than £12k a year and require tax credits to bolster their wages. These are just normal people who are doing a job to support their families and I find it very disappointing that people are jumping on the bandwagon of condemning anybody cont:

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 10:30

that receives a so called 'bonus' without researching the background first. It is very easy to jump to conclusions and is something that our politicians and press do much too often in the search for a good 'soundbite'. As for suggesting that these people should be shipped to Afghanistan to be used as human IED detectors, I find extremely distasteful.



Regards



Paul

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 11:04

Paul

Unfortunately people like to believe what they read in the papers and those that read certain English newspapers are rewarded with the kind of journalism that to me is totally irresponsible. If people have an interest in certain aspects of the news then they should further disseminate information from other sources to attain a more balanced appreciation of that particular situation rather than just believe a 'rag' that they feel mirrors their outlook on life.

AJ

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 11:42

I would agree that the word "bonus" is one,which should not be bandied around,when brave young men are being killed for dubious reasons. Civil servants have a pay scale and the ones at the lower end,may be rewarded for hard work,with such,and I dont disagree with that.

Civil servants at the other end of the scale,however,are a different matter. They already have huge salaries and to reward them beyond that is obscene.......especially when various reports have indicated that scrimping on front-line equipment has cost lives.

lovingcyprus


Joined: 02/03/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 11:45

re message 3 I have never read such a load of b------t



What jobs do these workers do that the military cannot?????????????????????

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 11:55

A bit of perspective is called for here I think! After 25 years military service I put in a further 17 years Civil Service, retiring at C2 grade. In my last year of service I received the top bonus award for the work I had performed throughout the past year. My job was that of IT Manager in support of over 4000 users on many diverse bases from North Scotland to the South coast of England. Control and responsibility for between 27 and 140 staff with a total budget of anything up to 6 million a year. A job that I enjoyed but which took its pound of flesh as any customer support job will. For this I had worked my way up the ranks of the Civil Service and was in my 7th year at the grade of C2 (Sqn Ldr/Maj equivalent) whilst being totally ignored by my service bosses as I was just one of those "Civilians".

My final years salary was 30,475 pounds the best I had ever got and my "Bonus" after tax came to 1,274 pounds - by the way I also supported the civilians in the front line!!!

teatime


Joined: 20/10/2008
Posts: 852

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 12:40

These so called bonuses were actually started back in 2003, which were instead of a proper pay rise. It saves the tax payer money in the long run as the 'bonuses' are not pensionable. The majority of staff in the MoD, who are on a very poor salary, compared to the private sector equivilant, actually recieved less than £500 for the year. It's a system that most in the MoD think it's a derisary system and would much rather have the correct rate of pay for the work done.

I received £1000 before tax this year, but for nine months of the year I was doing my own job and my Line Managers job, so I think the tax payer got good value for that £1000.

Msg 8: "What jobs do these workers do that the military cannot????????????????????? " You woud be surprised! It's also a matter of allowing the military to do the jobs that they are trained for, although there does still seem to be a lot more of them doing the "Office" jobs, than what there used to be.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 12:45

LovingCyprus



The military USED to do many of the jobs that civil servants now do. The reason that they don't anymore is because the civil servants are paid much less than their military counterparts and it is therefore much cheaper - see Waddo's post, he was doing the job of a Major/Sqn Leader for £30475 p.a., his military counterpart would have been earning £50k+. Regardless of the fiscal aspect, the forces are so overstretched these days that we cannot afford to have potential frontline soldiers doing jobs that a civilian can do. Its a no brainer !!!!

lovingcyprus


Joined: 02/03/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 13:50

fiendispaul



message 3 said that civilians do jobs that the military cannot ------- that is rubbish.



I grant you that civilians now do some jobs that the military no longer carry out that is not the same as stated in message 3.



Did you know that there is 1 civil servant employed for every 2 serving military persons, that I think is totally wrong. Mind you it is the same with the NHS, police etc etc

teatime


Joined: 20/10/2008
Posts: 852

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 14:47

I think there is a serious misconception by the general public regarding civil servants...i.e. Spend all day drinking tea for huge salaries. Those days are long gone.

About 3 to 4 years ago I was managing over 200 civil servants in the MoD, 90% of these had to be given a rise as otherwise they would have been earning below the minimum wage.

Lovingcyprus: It takes a huge workforce to ensure the military get equipment, food, pay, pensions etc. etc. etc. That is why there is what seems like a disproportinate amount of civil servants to military. Take away the civil servants and then see how long it would be before the whole lot grinds to a halt!

lovingcyprus


Joined: 02/03/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 15:22

teatime: many of the services provided for the military are contracted out to civilian firms, most of the catering on UK bases is provided by civilian firms.



A lot of the training for pilots and the provision of helicopters for training is provided by civilian firms.



I think you could easily reduce the number of Civil Servants in the MOD by 50% this would not make any difference to the military. Too many bosses that is a major problem



Don't forget about the gold plated pensions Civil Servants are entitled to these easily outrip those payable in the private sector

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 16:20

lovingcyprus,

As an ex civil servant now existing on one of your famous Gold Plated pensions I ask a simple question of you.



Can you give me an example of what a Gold Plated pension would be for somebody who has spent 17 years in the civil service prior to retirement?



I look forward to your reply with great interest just to see how much I will still be owed by the government!

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 16:29

teatime

spot on.



As for labour bashing, Had to laugh at the tory politicians wheeled out to show their disgust,They failed to mention that it was them that started the bonus system in the MOD.The emplyees hate it ,so stop decrying them. Most people want a stand alone decent wage.A bonus of £700 on wage of £15,000 in some cases, shocking

Terible how their £250m would be better used by Army but not the Billions in bankers bonuses.



LovingCyprus.

Mod civil servants do a variety of jobs .I was a civil servant for a time with and wore a boiler,not pinstripe, suit.



Do you think the troops would be better served if all the researchers, scientists, technicians,munitions experts who work on the logistics and on the technical improvements to arms and equipment, left for better paid jobs in the private sector.

What if those in the Merchant Marine side decided to leave the MOD .



if we want to get rid of bonuses fine, but we cant be selective and say they are okay for the rich onl

teatime


Joined: 20/10/2008
Posts: 852

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 17:13

Don't confuse the Senior Civil Sevants with the majority of normal hard working low paid civil servants. The so called "Gold Plated" pension is not at all as good as many people who work in the private sector believe.



Lovingcyprus msg 14: " many of the services provided for the military are contracted out to civilian firms, most of the catering on UK bases is provided by civilian firms"

This is quite correct and these jobs were being done at a third of the price by civil servants, but it makes for good figures for the government i.e. less civil servants, to move these jobs to private contracting firms. I know many ex civil servants who are now doing the same job in the private sector and are earning far more for less hours.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 19:05

LovingCyprus



Re "Gold plated" pensions. You have been reading the Sun for too long and are getting MP's and civil servants confused !!



Fact: My wife was a MOD civil servant for 22 years. Her projected pension at the age of 60 (17 years time) is £3500 p.a. What a fantastic reward for 22 years unblemished service !!!



Paul

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 19:37

What amazes me is when Fiendish Paul states:

'Many lower grade civil servants are paid less than £12k a year and require tax credits to bolster their wages' Lots of Briish workers would lover to be in a job earning £12k a year. I have been working at a local authority and many of the staff there were on this as a wage without tax credits or bonuses. It is a good working wage to a lot of people and many of the unemployed would love to be in the position of earning £12k a year. Many Many people in the UK are working for less than that also with no bonuses or tax credits. My husband worked for the MOD for 11 years and was paid £149.50 per week. He drove all over Europe into all EU and British military bases in Europe. He was also a TA Military Transport Sargeant. At the same time I trained the unemployed and had a discussion with a young disabled girl who was training to do office work. She was single and getting £207.00 per week benefit. When she got pregnant she got a 3 bed

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 19:40

roomed house and her benefits went up to over £300 per week as a single Mam.

There is no room for paying bonuses to anyone, when our forces are without the men and equipment needed to do the job and to keep them safe.

I would feel extremely guilty taking a bonus of £1000 when I hear that British troops have died because of a lack of equipment to fight with and protect them

Jetski


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 584

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 19:59

"our forces are without the men and equipment needed to do the job and to keep them safe. "



Katy - our forces are never 'safe'.... that's the job they do and they are recompensed for it. The Civil Service behind them do an admirable job supporting the huge number of functions necessary to have a well equipped and ready fighting force. Count yourself lucky.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 20:07

My son is one of the British Forces -

He pays tax - even when abroad (as in my Son's case) and when they are on active duty - this is then being paid to desk attendants in the MOD as bonues or whatever you wish to call them.

We have a duty to keep our troops as 'SAFE' as possible, with the best equipment available to do the job. I count myself lucky but I count our troops as unlucky in this respect

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 21:02

Katy



"At the same time I trained the unemployed and had a discussion with a young disabled girl who was training to do office work. She was single and getting £207.00 per week benefit. When she got pregnant she got a 3 bed roomed house and her benefits went up to over £300 per week as a single Mam"



Maybe this is where you should focus your attention as to where your son's tax (and mine for that matter) is being spent rather than targetting people who work hard and also pay tax on their earnings. The pay for the MOD civil service was agreed in the last governmental pay round and has absolutely no effect on the money earmarked for expenditure on the armed forces.



I agree that we have a duty to keep our troops as safe as possible (I was one of 'our' troops for 28 years until last December) so you are preaching to the converted, however to jump onto the media bandwagon and criticise MOD civil servants is not the right way to go about it.



Regards



Paul

lovingcyprus


Joined: 02/03/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 23:17

Message 15 said "Can you give me an example of what a Gold Plated pension would be for somebody who has spent 17 years in the civil service prior to retirement?"



The Civil Service Pension Scheme (CSPS) after 17 years service with your final salary being £20,000 you would have a pension of £4,250p.a + tax free cash of £12750. The scheme is what is known as a Final Salary Scheme(FS) The pension would increase every year. If you die before pension age 2x salary is paid out. The cost to the employee is Zero.



With a private sector pension to secure a pension of £4250 p.a. you would have to pay £465 p.m. before tax relief for 17 years. The arrangement is what is called a Money Purchase arrangement basically the actual pension payable depends on what you pay and how the investment grows in the 17 years.



If we were looking at a FS scheme in the private sector it could produce a similar pension to the CSPS but the employee would pay 5%+ of salary. These schemes are being phased out

lovingcyprus


Joined: 02/03/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
13/11/2009 23:24

fiendispaul



If you look at the pension statement your wife was given on leaving service that is probably the pension she has secured as at the date of leaving. That will increase (probably at 3% p.a.) between now and her retirement in 17 years

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 08:54

lovingcyprus,

Difficult to respond with accurate figures at this time, however, would you care to quote me a poor servicemans pension following 22 years service as well - just so that we have a sound comparison here?



After all we are talking about the Civil Service bonus degrading the fighting capability of the serviceman and that Civil Service can not do the work of the serviceman - if that be so then I expect the pensions to show a marked difference.



As a small example for you I was in charge of servicemen from Cpl up to WO and even on my top pay at end of service the Cpl's were getting paid more than me - so I expect their pensions, which we all pay for in our taxes, to be platinum plated!!

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 09:11

Lovingcyprus



Re the pension forecast



Yes you are right.



However my point is that the media led preconception of huge 'bonuses' and pensions for MOD civil servants is so far from the truth as to be laughable. The vast majority of MOD civil servants receiving performance related 'bonuses' earn around £12k a year (just above the minimum wage based on a 38 hour week @ £5.80 per hour). Unfortunately too many people assume that what they see in the papers is gospel and immediately jump on the bandwagon without checking the facts.



To put the 43 million spent on MOD 'bonuses' into perspective, this equates to 0.1% of the MOD budget of £32 billion for 2009. Maybe it is worth looking at where the other 99.9% was spent ?



Regards



Paul

kaysera


Joined: 14/07/2009
Posts: 103

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 09:19

Msg 24: "The cost to the employee is Zero."



Get your facts right! Employees do contribute to this pension and they receive lower than 'Private Sector' pay to balance the difference.

lovingcyprus


Joined: 02/03/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 11:53

kaysera



Your message 28 in which you said Get your facts right! Employees do contribute to this pension and they receive lower than 'Private Sector' pay to balance the difference.



Take a look at the following:-



http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/Assets/Your%20classic%20pension%20benefits%20explained%20May%202009_tcm6-1884.pdf



Take a look at page 6

kaysera


Joined: 14/07/2009
Posts: 103

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 14:31

Msg 29: Yes, I've read it. 1.5% contribution, and that is on the older 'Classic' system. I pay 3.5% towards mine.

lovingcyprus


Joined: 02/03/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
14/11/2009 15:29

kaysera



You only pay 1.5% of your salary per annum if you want your wife to have a pension should you pre-decease her. In the examples I gave in message 24 neither included a widows pension. I would guess that the extra cost to provide a widows pension in a private sector scheme would be about the same as the 1.5% payable in Classic scheme



You are obviously in the premium scheme because you had previously been in the Classic scheme and left the Civil service or an employer covered by the Civil Service pension arrangements and then rejoined.