Is it Orams back to ECJ?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
13/12/2009 18:00

There was an article in the daily Havadis referring to a news article in a daily Greek Cypriot newspaper about the growing possibility of UK Court of Appeal referring the case back to European Court of Justice. Unfortunately there is no more detail thus your guess is as good as mine. I can think of many possibilities but let us wait and see what will come of this news.

ismet

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
13/12/2009 18:26

ismet abi



i have always believed that this will happen ,we will indeed have to wait,i do not believe for one

minute the uk government will want to get involved ,we are bursting at the seams with our

own problems ,some problems which no one quite knows how to fix as of yet.





musin



long live the kktc

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
13/12/2009 20:09

I imagine it's pure newspaper speculation. As far as I know UK C of A judges don't go in for gossiping about cases they've yet to anounce a verdict on.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
13/12/2009 20:10

This is apossibility due to the complexity and potential Public interest repercusions.

Furthermore, the ECHR have yet to rule upon the seven claims by GC,s against Turkey. i.e. is the IPC an accepted and local remedy to property issues?

Both cases are linked and which one will be completed first is critical.

The whole legal and litigation route to a Cyprus solution is clearly not going to provide a peacfull, acceptable and fair outcome.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/12/2009 09:49

Dear Waz/ Warren



re msg 4



Reading you last line:



>>The whole legal and litigation route to a Cyprus solution is clearly not going to provide a peacfull, acceptable and fair outcome.<<



Do you know something we don't ? ;)

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
14/12/2009 17:48

dear mark message 5,



surely a sophisticated business gent like your good self,

doesn't really believe the road to any cyprus compromise agreement

involves endless **** a***** about in the courts en route?



I'd have thought less (litigation) is more (chance of an agreement),

if I may be permitted to recycle a phrase from george orwell



...after all, how would you feel if your home was at stake?



so we may conclude that while waz knows very little or nothing we don't

he does seem worldly-wise in a general sort of way

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
14/12/2009 19:42

Sensible Hector. No one knows - probably not even the judges themselves. They have probably shut down until the New Year when they will assemble and make a decision. Anything prior to that is rumour, speculation and most certainly NOT fact.



If the Orams are just sitting back and enjoying life without speculating, then maybe we all should. Otherwise Christmas will merely produce more grey hairs and worry lines. Not a good idea!

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
14/12/2009 21:15

mmmmmm



Msg 5.

No not really.

Litigation and legal wrangle is not at all conjusive to an acceptable, peacfull and fair outcome for the two parties. Cypriot litigation is no different and I only see a divergence of the two sides should the litigation bandwagon get really rolling.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
14/12/2009 22:42

spot on waz,

as a businessman, mmmmmm is perfectly aware that legal action is always a last resort:

whatever the rights and wrongs it is expensive, uncertain and extremely time-consuming

and if it involves family, former friends or even "neighbours" is conducive to bitterness

...not an ideal prescription for the much-touted all-cyprus agreement we hear so much of

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
15/12/2009 01:32

Dear Andre_514



It may have escaped your attention but some folks lost their lives .. and it has been legal action - at the ECHR that has pushed Turkey to negotiate at all ...



If it hadn't been for legal action the crossing points would still be closed and we wouldn't have ECHR rulings on property ownership.



Just to recap.. *I* don't think the Apostolides / Orams case outcome is as important as how the ECHR rule re the IPC's continued functioning.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
15/12/2009 01:47

mark message 10



a very fair reply



but the central point, legal manoevers and litigation

are bound to obstruct moves to a settlement*

...no real comment on that as far as I can see



andre



* if any

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
15/12/2009 01:55

Dear Andre_514,



so 'fair' that you seem to be [still?] raising the very point I covered ;) ...



FACT: legal action has driven the major progress in Cyprus, since 1974.. there are lessons to be learnt from that.. by all involved parties..

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
15/12/2009 13:55

message 12:



I can see the point you are making



yes, access across the green line for example,

it is perfectly respectable to call this progress ie for jobs, freedom of movement,

visiting properties formerly occupied etc etc



but hold: a few individuals would prefer this not to have happened at all,

perhaps they are mistaken, perhaps they have ulterior motives or whatever



and what of the "lessons to be learned"?



that overall, legal threats and litigation have delivered changes that,

allow you to build a case for calling it progress at least in the humanitarian sense



but what these one-sided initiatives don't deliver and certainly make more elusive is:

...hands up for the right answer!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
15/12/2009 17:00

and while on the subject of progress,

it is possible to argue that the effective ban on trnc exports to the eu (1996)

as well as the inhumane isolations and ban on direct flights

are progressive in the sense that may bring turkey/trnc to the negociating table



I'm quite prepared to accept you may choose to argue measures like these are progress, mark



but what they will not do, not ever, is to assist in obtaining the all island peace-agreement

you have often referred to as if it is a near or a realistic prospect



this is because turkey appears to have no intention of giving up on its involvement,

while the gc-controlled rump of cyprus

has yet to even vote "yes" to any such compromise agreement, remember the 2004 debacle



...sometimes the truth is less, rather than more complicated to understand

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
15/12/2009 21:13

mmmmm

I do not think that legal action has driven major progress since 1974 as you state. Progress has been driven by: The justifiable desire for peace. International desire for settlement and Peace. Vindictive desire for political victory. Nationalistic hatred. Political aspirations of ROC, against TRNC and Turkey.I very much doubt that this aspiration will come to fruition without a deal of agressive backlash and defence

The Courts have had very little real effect upon progress. The use of the Courts is certainly a tool that the ROC intend to use increasingly towards political victory over the TRNC. This is even more clear now that they are in the EU and European law is at their disposal. I fear that this new found weapon will come back and bite them severeley as matters decline into turmoil and strife.

.



The legal route will not produce any sort of amicable solution.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
16/12/2009 05:39

waz your last line says it all



I really cannot see there is any basis for an amicable serttlement as you call it, however sad that is



the positions of the two sides are totally opposite,

and if anything after so many years there seems even less trust and partnership spirit than ever



a complicating factor and one of which the gc's are all too aware

is that turkey's stake is so great, only if that country were asleep could the roc take back the north



again you have to ask yourself:

why do so many postings on cyprus 44 seem to put their faith in a complete and unbelievable turnaround

is it naivity, wishful thinking or are they saying that's what they think they'd do if they were cypriots?



...and as the meetings enter their terminal phase, what if turkey's patience finally snaps like it did in '74?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/12/2009 11:25

re 15



Waz/Waren:



1/ What action opened the crossing points ? By whom and using what vehicle?



2/ What action saw a Cypriot prove she still owned her house in Kyrenia and had lost use of it ?



Did the latter action not bring about a 'local remedy' in the 'north' ?



It is time BOTH sides realised there are LEGAL solutions already in place - re property / freedom of movement.



Since April 2004 - Annan Vote - it is clear that TCs voted for an end to 'TRNC' and can't be 'punished' for a GC vote that actually perpetuated it.. The 'rump' RoC are making a mistake by failing to recognise this.



If you can help the EU, et al, to get around this legal 'road block' - suggestions welcome.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
16/12/2009 12:09

How many times, then, 6m's, do the 'EU, et al', need reminding that they have continued to renegue on their promises to TRNC?



EU expects Turkey to open its ports to Greek Cypriot vessels (meaning airports as well) and so we continue to have a 'stalemate' situation.



Then, of course, there's the 'Human Rights' factor, which EU claims to uphold and legislate on.



To my mind, the hypocrisy and double standards are, if they weren't so serious, utterly ludicrous and undermine any confidence any thinking person can have in the EU and its 'values'.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/12/2009 12:40

Dear 'tenakoutou'



The EU et al, can't renege on a misquoted 'promise' never made..



Do you mean to TCs.... ?



YES, the EU expects TR to obey a treaty it signed.. POST the ANNAn Vote.. TR knew exactly what it was signing.. there was no 'promise' to reciprocate, but I'm sure it was implied.. so WHAT is TR's 'problem'?



HR issues - were - esp up to 2003/4 - undoubtedly not an issue you want to raise -if double stds is your 'worry'....



The main reason the CY prob is STILL a prob is the HR issue over right of return to use one's property...

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
16/12/2009 19:28

message 19:



know an elderly guy forced to live on a brokendown smallholding in a north cyprus villiage

he had to move from his extensive lands and large house near limasol, now taken by former neighbours

fevzi still hopes to return one day: his human rights have obviously been harmed



from your extensive knowledge of the political and legal situation in cyprus mark,

how would you rate his chances?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/12/2009 19:51

Dear Andre_514



If Fevzi, can prove he owns that land / property, he can live in the 'rump' RoC and request back his assets from the Guardian of Properties.. ( personally speaking - I think the six month residency Rule sucks and should be tested in law.. ultimately at the ECHR)



What would YOU say about a GC from Bogaz(i) who helped his TC mate get his land / home back in the 'rump' RoC - but his land has been developed for housing...?

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
16/12/2009 20:01

Mark

' If Fevzi, can prove he owns that land / property,'

Now how would he do that Mark?

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
16/12/2009 20:09

message 21:



and your comment about the chap from bogaz:



does he think he will ever get to live on his former property again?



andre

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/12/2009 22:53

Dear AJ,





re msg 22: I'm sure he has something to prove that.. why are you asking ME? He can visit the records office for his district in Nicosia or Famagusta...



Dear Andre



Strangely, enough, *yes*.. ! *I'm* not sure he was being realistic, as he did talk about demolishing every property built on his land.