Hijaab, Burkha do others think

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 17:33

Hijaab or the veil, Burkha, do others feel or think this is oppression and control. As on a flight back to the UK, there were several women who wore the Hijaab on the plane. Whilst in London there seemed to be a lot of women now wearing this as a daily way of life on our streets of London.

Surely this way of dressing was meant for the desert way of life, as it was a way of keeping the dust and sand out of the clothing,hair etc going back thousands of years.....

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 17:35

Dizzy,

Wouldnt fancy ironing it,lol

Karanfil


Joined: 28/03/2009
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:16

I don't think the hijaab or burkha was a way of dressing designed for the desert. I think these were designed to protect women so that men were not tempted by their beauty, the covered parts only being visible to the wearer's husband in the privacy of their home. I think the Koran says something about women not outwardly displaying their beauty and the the word beauty is interpreted in different ways. Some people think its the eyes, the hair, the body or even the hands.



I personally wouldn't want to wear one but I think that the hijaab can look quite attractive on some women. I'd be forever tripping up in a burkha!

teatime


Joined: 20/10/2008
Posts: 852

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:25

I believe that if the women are happy to wear it then it's up to them..........If they are being forced to wear it, it's a different matter!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:29

Before judging - perhaps you should ask yourself why you think the way you do about Hijab and a woman's right to choose?



Here are some links that might, just might help you to understand - before you judge Enjoy



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG65b9ma-T8



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p54TF6rniro



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0SsYD2yRsk&feature=related (A non-Muslim woman wearing Hijab)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6AvYJih8A4



Of course if you want you can ignore these links and keep your stereotypical perspective.



If you are truly looking for answers as to why women who wear hijab and what they actually say about it then you will take the time to find out! If you choose not to look for answers and want to propagate your own stereotypcial perspective then ask why you think the way you think - and is imposing your stereotypical view on others a form of subjugation?



Enjoy

PaulW



Joined: 20/07/2009
Posts: 651

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:32

As pointed out in message 3 this has nothing to do with the desert. The definition of a hijab is a spatial curtain to divide or provide privacy. This then became a term for a head dress or veil.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:33

P.S.



Message 1



"...Whilst in London there seemed to be a lot of women now wearing this as a daily way of life on our streets of London...."



It is THEIR streets too



Do I detect a hint of US and THEM?

elkiton



Joined: 15/03/2009
Posts: 514

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:46

I guess it is all tied to how much these women want to retain their "culture" and customs. In Britain they are all "free" to abandon this mode of dress should they so choose, although they may have to abandon their menfolk along with their burkhas!

In the Esentepe supermarket last week there was an English lady who lives the Cypriot family way of life, not sure if I would suggest that she take her headscarf off lol

TonyE

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:48

Also...looks what coming to your beach soon....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_REva8U39ss&feature=related



And this is well...what can I say...worth a look



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIz-JaYRLdk



And finally...



Yvonne Ridley - yes...very well respected when she was a Christian Journalist working for the Daily Mail and now....?



http://yvonneridley.org/yvonne-ridley/articles/how-i-came-to-love-the-veil-4.html



Enjoy

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:50

This is very, very funny - watch it



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6AvYJih8A4



Enjoy

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:52

I don't think about this is the answer to your post, my wife is Sunni Muslim and has never worn either some of the family and some of her friends do but most don't through choice, yes they do have that personel choice in some places.

Some people have said to me Vinera does not look like a Muslim, which is probably one of the most stupid comments I get.

It never ceases to amaze me just how ignorant some people are.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 18:58

TheSaints:



"...It never ceases to amaze me just how ignorant some people are..."



On that we can totally agree

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:04

I once asked a Muslim colleague why, when men and women are allegedly equal in Islam, a woman was expected to cover herself from head to toe while her husband dressed in fashionable western clothing. The colleague could not answer me.



I can only assume then that females cover themselves because their husbands order them to do so. A form of opression. Here in Yorkshire you can go through parts of Dewsbury, Batley, Bradistan, etc and see so many females covered from head to foot that it makes you wonder which country you are in.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:15

DB msg 13



Ask my wife why she does not wear either then ask my wifes sister why she does and you will get the answer because I have the choice to wear what I want to wear.

My wifes sister wears western clothes in the house and outside she wears them underneath what you obviously see as a muslim uniform........I asked her why once and she told me because she wants to....



You assume incorrectly..........I would not like or wish for my wife to wear either but if she decided she wanted to who am I to stop her?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:20

Dusterbruce:



So you asked a question to one Muslim woman and did not get an answer - from you you deduce that it is because her husband told her to wear the Hijab? From your own assumption you then conclude - it is 'a form of oppression'?



Seems like you have your own view not based on fact but on your innate racism which is conformed when you conclude: "so many females covered from head to foot that it makes you wonder what country you are in".



Well, it is just as much their country as yours.



I don't recall the Indians or Africans looking at those from the British Empire and saying "so many half naked women - makes you wonder what country you are in".



This US and THEM mentality is what is truly oppressive!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:26

Itsme:



That is such a riduculous statement! Perhaps if you bothered to actually find out why Muslim women choose, yes, choose to wear the Hijab you wouldn't be so futile in your reasosning!



By the way - if you been to chuch at any point in your life - correct me if I am wrong - isn't the Virgin Mary always protrayed wearing a "Hijab"?



Perhaps there should be a Hijab for your innate prejuidice?



lol

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:31

In dressing like this in a western country they show that they refuse to integrate and create their own ghettos and barriers.



The Indians and West Indians that came here in the 1960's did at least integrate.



This is not as much their country as mine, I was born here, they or their forbears were born on another continent.



The woman that I asked the original question (yes it was a woman but that was your deduction not my admission) is not a burka-wearing oppressed female but one who has integrated into British society and is as modern as any western woman, although she probably does have higher moral values than many western women do.



Yes I am sometimes a little racist. That's because I hate to see what has happened to this country and the way we bend over backwards not to upset our 'guests', it doesnt matter how much we upset the indigenous population.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:32

Message 16



I have accompanied my husband around the world with his work to many Middle east countries and I tell you never have I worn Hijab and never have I walked behind my husband.





Vinera

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:35

DB



When we go to the Middle east is my husband expected to wear a Dish Dash and adopt thier culture No!

so why expect others to forget thier culture just to satisfy your racism?

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:39

Dusterbruce, last paragraph of your message 18. I am sure you speak for a lot of us; well, I, for one, would wholeheartedly agree with you.

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:42

I think that when you go to live in another country you are a guest in that country and should make some effort to integrate there and follow the customs of the country that welcomes you.



I listen to what people around me have to say, and believe me I am not the only white 'racist', there are many more, and one day this country will see such a backlash the likes of which has never been seen.



Also, do not forget that for every British racist there are as many foreign racists living here.



And no, I do not and will never vote BNP!

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:44

It looks as though this post has now done what it set out to do and stir up the old racist arguments, some of your comments/attitudes and ignorance have suprised me....





Mike

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:46

>Yvonne Ridley - yes...very well respected when she was a Christian Journalist working for the Daily Mail and now....?



1. Yes, very well respected when she was christian journalist by how many? less than a million or so Mail readers in UK. Well, now she is respected and a above all a role model by score of millions worlwide by just being a muslim woman. Her personal decision, and it was a personal decision, was a brave one and more so especially when in captivity at gun point the Talibans could not force her to take the lifestyle she has willingly taken up now.

2. The Burkha is totally a cultural thing just as much as as an english man may desire to get pissed out of his head and dance naked or knock a few heads after a footbal match. A bit harsh but that all the burkah is. \on the other hand the hijab is a recommendation in the Quran and many women have taken it up without coecion or threats as it is implied in some of the threads. I stand to be corrected but I .....

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:47

OK to go back to the original subject of the post, my opinion, and I know it is the opinion of many around me, is that the wearing of the Hijaab and Burkha is threatening and does not encourage integration of communities.

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:49

Jeannie msg 21



I know that a lot of people would agree with me, unfortunately many dare not express their opinions for fear of being accused of racism, exactly as I was.

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 19:52

the feeling that it is the crtics trying to impose their way of life on women. Incidently, it is the highly educated western white europeans that are taking up the Quranic recommendations in droves.

3. Finally, on a related issue, why must those who have made their home the UK or those who made N Cyprus their home be assimilated and integrated in the fashion stated. The British ruled India, how many British integrated into Indian society

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:05

Why threatening? and which majority? This is all about being open minded, respectful of other peoples opinion/cultures and above all toleration. It has nothing to do with integration or assimilation.

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:05

Moover321 msg 17



You would not be able to go into a church in Saudi Arabia because they are not allowed there!!!



Is is also not an oppression of women in that a female is not allowed to drive in Saudi?

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:06

msg 26



Again you are assuming, "many dare not express thier opinion for fear of being accused of racism" maybe they do not have an opinion either way as it really does not figure or matter to many people.

yes I accused you of racism just look at my posts and my wifes posts, your comments and you can ask yourself why...plain enough to see or is that just me expressing my opinion?

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:13

Again you are assuming, "many dare not express thier opinion for fear of being accused of racism" maybe they do not have an opinion either way as it really does not figure or matter to many people.



I am 'assuming' nothing. I am repeating what I HEAR people say.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:16

Again, a few people in the same mind set as you or have you conducted a national poll and consider it a majority opinion?

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:17

I used to work in a supermarket, I listened to customers' comments from a wide cross section of society and mainly from people that I did not know.



Who is the racist here, you or I?

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:20

Its come to something when a white English child is told to stop taking pork products in his school lunchbox in case he upsets his Muslim classmates.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:20

DB:



I regret that much of your rhetoric comes from behind the veil of ignorance and prejudice.



You think that the UK belongs to you and those of your ilk as you claim you were born there? Really - so a mere accident of birth gives you rights over and above others who also could equally have either been born there or chose to live there because it gives people the rights to live and dress as they choose.



That my dear friend is what we call democracy. It is not mob rule. It is not seated in deep ignorance of another culture. It is the rule of law based on demoratic principles.



The deabte is about the right of a woman to choose.



The fact that you assume that 'guests' should behave how you want them to behave means you miss the fact that whether you like it or not they are your equal.



Seems to me much of your rhetoric comes from behind the veil of ignorance laced in hypocrisy and iced with deep seated prejuidice of anyone who choses to be different to your norms

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:22

Not at all.



Just look at the way this country has been ruined over the last 50 years.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:23

I wouldn't wear one.

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:24

Nor me No1.

spanna


Joined: 12/01/2009
Posts: 544

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:29

I appreciate that everyone is entitled to their personal opinions and I respect that entitlement. I find it quite amusing at times to hear such blanket statements about women who wear the hijab or burkah, or about men who are married to women who do or don't!

I'm sure that as within any society or culture, there will be a whole myriad of reasons as to why people do or don't do particular things. It would be foolish to assume that because we ascertain that one individual wears a hijab under duress, that all women feel equally oppressed. I have many Muslim friends, some who do wear and some who don't and I'm sure there are numerous reasons as to why they make the choices they do.



As for 'integrating' in to the British/English way of life/ Culture... what exactly is that...? I love being English (sometimes) but really, how many of us can trace our ancestors right back and say hand on heart that we are 'truly English/British'... very few. Diversity is what makes life interesting!

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:32

Bill - oh, I don't know. I think it would look very fetching



J

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:32

DB:



Being white and eating pork does not make you British - neither does wearing a short skirt or walking around half naked for men to oggle at you.



As you seem to speak for the 'silent majority' why don't we just abolish democracy appoint you as the 'knower of all' and let you do as you please with UK Plc.



In the 1930's it was the Jews who suffered at the hands of people like you in the UK and in Europe.



In the 1950's and 1960's it was the Afro-Caribbeans.



In the 1970's and 1980's it was the Asians from Uganda, Indai and Pakistan



And now it is the Muslims....



Do you see a pattern?



I can admire your honesty that you are 'a racist' sometimes. That is more than some others who hide behind the notion of keeping the so called 'British Values'. But that is no justifcation for taking away the rights of others. We have the rule of law and a system that gurantees these rights. It is what we fought against in WW2.



Cont'd..

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:33

DB



My wife cooks bacon butties for my breakfast does that make her a good integrated English wife now?

As you put it I am an Englishman born and bred too but I can not live in my own country peacefully with my wife when there are people like you with such stupid attitudes.

I respect and tolerate your opinions as you are entitled to them as I am entitled to mine but what I won't tolerate is petty racism.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:33

Do the men wear them commando? )

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 20:41

Cont'd



It gave us what we have today - what we call freedom under the law.



People choose to wear what they like - it is their right.



Some people choose a homosexual life - in the UK this was illegal for a long time and gradually it has changed.



Some people opposed same sex 'marriage' or civil partnership for a long time - but now it is part of our law.



Some people choose to wear a Hijab - it is their choice - and as long as they are not breaking any laws by wearing it - it is their perfect right to do so.



The fact that you may find it "threatening" says more about you then it does about the woman who chooses to wear a Hijab.



No doubt you will also find 'hoodies' threatening! Just imagine if we had only people like you to rely on to defend us against the Nazi's in WW2 - all what they would have to do is wear a Hijab and you would run lol



A persons choice to dress as she pleases is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! The fact that you think it should be is at best sad

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 21:21

moover321, I asked the question, and some on here have given good answers at how they see the hijaab etc in GB. I asked the question as I so amazed at how many women were wearing it in GB, as I live way out in the country we do not see muslims at all. It just struck me so strange after comming back from NC, a muslim country, and walking around London full of covered up women!

Didnt Turkey outlaw this code of dress many years ago?

What you say about being threatened by hoodies is very relevent as any one that hides behind hoodies, the veil can be scary to a lot of people.

At the airport, two veiled ladies simply pushed every one aside to get to the luggage first, every one just made room for them,they certainly looked threatening if nothing else, glaring through.

It seemed strange that most people adhere to the country they visit or come to live in. but it seems not so.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 21:31

Dizzycows:



Look at the links I have given in my early messages.



Also if you 'fear' such dress that says more about you then about a woman's right to choose how she dresses.



In the UK people have the 'right' to dress as they please providing it doesn't break the law.



If you walk naked on Oxford Street with just a pair of socks on - you are sure to be arrested.



The point I make is this:



1. Educate yourself on why women choose to wear the Hijab.



2. Mix with some women who wear the Hijab and your fear will fall away.



3. In the 1930's it was the Jews that were persecuted.



In the 1950's and 1960's it was the Afro-Caribbean people



In the 1970's and 1980's it was Indians, Pakistanis and Asiana



and now it is the Muslims?



Do you see a pattern?



Yes, the UK has changed - some changes we like others we don't. But change happens.



Cont'd...

taraspring


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 571

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 21:35

It would clash with the shoes, the handbag and never mind the red lipstick.



So, its a no for me.

Tx

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 21:39

Cont'd



Cont'd



What I object to is your stereotyping of women who wear Hijab (desert etc) and the fact that you seem to think that the streets of London belong to you.



Yes, there are some countries where the 'fear factor' has been hyped by the press and the media i.e. France.



But a woman wearing the Hijab is not really any of your business. As I said, the fact that he and of course you seem to think it is, is at best sad!



As I have said to you before - change is one of the facts of life - like tax and death.



Sooner or later we will be affected by it!



We can choose to bury our heads in our prejuidices or look at the change and embrace the great diversity we have in not just the UK but the world.



Sometimes we spend too much time worrying about the veils that other people wear - and fail to see the veil that covers our ignorance... Enjoy



I don't see your code of dressing as my business. If you choose to walk around half naked - that is really your choice!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 21:47

Dizzy:



When you say: "It seemed strange that most people adhere to the country they visit or come to live in. but it seems not so.."



Just what do you mean?



Have they broken some laws in the UK? Then get the police to prosecute them



I'm sorry that these women wearing Hijab don't conform to your standard or code of dress - and that you 'fear' them.



Perhaps you ought to approach some women wearing Hijab and see if they really bite as you imagine or if they are underneath their dress of modesty just as human, witty and full of life as you are



Your fear is based on what is 'different'.



Being different is not so bad! Think about it - people from your generation will recall homosexuality being 'wrong' and 'different' - and now it is accepted - as much as the Queen's Christmas speech!



We may not like change - but it will happen whether you like it or not! just learn to be a little more open minded and you find that people are much the same - hijab or mini skirt

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 22:00

moover321, why are you taking that stance, why do you think a I should need educating regarding a dress code?

I asked a question, you have answered to how you think we should all think, but unfortunatly others dont always feel comfortable with your answers!

Dont think I will be able mix as you say with muslim women that where the veil as do not see muslims in the south west! I only mix with muslim women whilst in NC ,or when I have visited Turkey! And these ladies are not at all threatening in their attitude, so my dear its not race as you try to make out!.....

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 22:09

Dizzy:



You obviously have not read ALL that I have written!



I simply ask why you feel so threatened by someone in Hijab. By the way - your idea of the Hijab is a bit strange - if they are wearing a 'veil' as you describe it - then it is a "Nikab" and NOT a Hijab!



Maybe that answers your point on educating yourself?



If you took all the women in the whole of the UK wearing a 'Nikab' it wouldn't even fill the O2.



It wouldn't amount to a 'threat' to you let alone to the 60 Million plus in the UK who do not wear a Nikab!



As for Hijab - take a look at the links I have posted earlier - especially the one with Yvonne Ridley and those from women who became Muslims and chose to wear a Hijab!



It was DB who said he was 'sometimes racist' - that I can respect - but being sometimes racist is a little like being 'slightly pregnant' - a natural impossibility - but atleast he was honest!



If you feel threatened by someone's dress - maybe you should ask yourself why? Enjoy

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 22:15

Cont'd



If you as k yourself why, I have no doubt it will be because it is something 'different'! That says more about you than it does about their 'attitude'.



And how do you guage their attitude when you don't interact with them?



You may feel there are more people like you - and I have no doubt that there are - but what is really scary is that the underlying theme in your argument is that these Muslim women should dress like you or how you would like them to dress.



That, in anyone's book should be more oppressive and subjugating



What gives you or those who agree with you the right to tell another woman how she should dress?



It is NOT YOUR BUSINESS! Simple

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 22:26

moover321, thought the veil was the hijaab! you have put your points over, I respect that, but it still hasnt answered why the women in GB have taken to wearing this garment, and the more liberated women in Turkey and NC do not. No I havnt gone through all your links, started watching them but they tended to drone on and on.

Did Turkey out law the hijaab? think it did in the 30s, and do you know why they did?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 22:42

Dizzy:



I am amazed that you have not got your answer from the above.



Let me address the issues again.



"...but it still hasnt answered why the women in GB have taken to wearing this garment, and the more liberated women in Turkey and NC do not.."



If you are talking about the Hijab (without the veil) - people in NC, Turkey, UK and all over the world wear it. The reason they wear it - because it is their choice.



If you are talking of the Nikab / Noqab (Hijab plus the Veil) - then it has been 'outlawed' in Turkey and some other countries. Why? Because it wasn't regarded by these countries as a requirement of Islamic dress and it became a balle ground in their local politics!



As far as the UK is concerned - there is no law against wearing a Niqab except of course on your passpost / driver's licence photos.



The number of women who actually wear the Niqab is very, very small. Most Muslim women who choose and Islamic dress code take the Hijab!



Read Yvone Ridley Link

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 22:45

Oooppps



"Islamic dress and it became a balle ground in their local politics..."



I meant...and it became a "battle ground" in their local politics...

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 22:54

Dizzy:



You say "...No I havnt gone through all your links, started watching them but they tended to drone on and on......"



That is the problem isn't it - if you don't have the facts andd cannot be bothered to find out what Muslim women actually think then why are you so prepared to have a 'stereotypical' perspective on how others dress!



If you were to say for example, that all black or asian people are criminals, without knowing the facts or actually making an effort to find out because the fact finding would be too much effort and the links were just droning on and on....then your attitude would rightly be said to be racist! Not all criminals are black or asian and not all law abiding people are white!



The same goes for Muslims.



The reason I challenge you is that just repeating statements that others may say doesn't make it true! You need to educate yourself and think if something is right or wrong but on the facts not on opinion and conjecture Enjoy

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:00

Ah Ha now you have answered some of my question moover321! Turkey a muslim country outlawed the Hijaab and veil, because it was not required as a Islamic code of dress! In fact Turkey is right because where in the Koran does it say this is the code for Islamic women?

It does not state any where that a womans face, body should be covered up with black cloth.

So it is seen as a threat to a lot of western women moover321. You are not a woman so perhaps you would not feel threatened. But I can assure you that many British ladies certainly did feel this at the airport...

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:08

Dizzycows:



What are you on? Maybe you should pass it around



Turkey has NOT outlawed the Hijab! I'm sorry but you seem a little short on reading and / orunderstanding be it deliberate of otherwise!



The Hijab is an Islamic dress code and is worn by women of the Islamic faith out of choice.



The Nikab / Niqab is said by some countries like Turkey not to be part of the Islamic dress code as a part of their political battles.



The Qur'aan does say that the woman should be modestly dressed and the that is the Hijab.



Don't take this the wrong way but you really make a meal of following a simple arguement!



As for a threat - I have sisters, a mother, aunt and many many friends who are female. If they choose to wear the Hijab it is their choice and not mine. Why should that be a threat to me or to any other woman!



Your argument is baseless if not one sandwich short of a picnic! Enjoy but do engage your grey matter first

TheScarlets



Joined: 14/04/2009
Posts: 877

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:09

Back to the original posting, get them off at airports and on airplanes



Forget the b@ll@cks regarding laws and discrimination, the security of us all is paramount, nothing can be chanced



"If Only" is not something we don't want to hear

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:09

Some islamic scholars maintain that it is a requirement of the quran.



Others state categorically that it is either a matter of choice or a bye product of mens insecurities and need to oppress women in certain countries.



So there is no definitive answer.



Dizzycows has her own intolerate moments and is certainly not a good example of tolerance but calling her racist for daring to have her own views is................



Racist!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:11

DC:



If you feel threatened by someone wearing the Hijab - then you would be afraid of the Virgin Mary or a Nun



That is the Hijab.



The Niqab is different!



Do you understand?



If not why not invest in researching it on the Internet!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:17

Nescoop:



You knowledge of Islam is at best limited.



As for Dizzy being a racist - if someone makes an 'us and 'them' statement then you can cloud it all you like the argument is balck and white!



What does she mean by: "Whilst in London there seemed to be a lot of women now wearing this as a daily way of life on our streets of London..."



What is mant by 'OUR' in this sentence?



It is equally the streets of all those who live in the UK be they balck, whicte, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Atheist, Hetrosexual, Homosexual....etc.,



Seems like to challenge someone's comment is to be a racist - looks like your knowledge of the meaning of the term is as limited as your understanding of Islam!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:20

TheScarlets:



If it is security you are concerned with - then you need a reality check if you think wearing a Hijab is a security threat! Just imagine undressing all those nuns coming from Rome - now wouldn't that be a sorrt sight!



Sorry but it seems that DC has taken my advice and passed the stuff she is on to you Enjoy

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:21

To put is quite simply:



How a woman choses to dress is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS Period!



Now which part of that is hard for you to understand?

TheScarlets



Joined: 14/04/2009
Posts: 877

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:33

Mower I don't disagree with some of your points but at airports showing faces at every security point is a must

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
30/12/2009 23:42

TheScarlets:



At the airport they have to show their faces before boarding if asked to. It is the law.



Just like they can strip search anyone if they think you have something smuggled on your person or even swallowed or otherwise placed in the 'nether' region or are a security risk.



Wearing a Hijab is the equivalent of wearing a scarf.



Wearing a 'Niqab' I can imagine poses some questions but think of it this way - if you were one of a few wearing a niqab you would stand out like a sore thumb and for security it would be quite easy to 'pick you out'



If you are worried about security then the bigger concern would be those that 'blend' in with the background!



That is why the next big issue will be 'behaviour profiling'.



This is not profiling based on your colour or religion or whether you wear a Hijab or not but based on how you behave during checkin...security...and thereafter.



Enjoy

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 00:05

Methinks Moover321 doth protest too much!!



The reason that the Hijaab and Burkha are worn 'by choice' is because it is the husband's choice.



It also seems that if you do not want to be accused of being a racist by Moover 321 you are not allowed to have opinions that differ from his. In his mind you are not allowed to think for yourself.



Mention was made of the British who colonised India all those years ago and had children there. They or their offspring would never say that the country was theirs as much as the Indians like you are saying the UK belongs as much to our Muslim brethren as it does to me. Utter rubbish.



As I say, if I do not agree with you or your ilk you say I am a racist? Rubbish!

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 00:09

Moover321;



My knowledge of Islam is indeed limited.



I only pointed out that not all islamists agree on the dress code as is (or is not) written in the quran



Sorry mate but if you think that disagreeing with you makes a person racist then you need to look in the mirror.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 00:12

db



You do not seem to be able to understand, I am a Muslim woman I do not wear Hijab or Burka and that is my choice, my husband would not even try to make me wear them and I think that I know more muslim women in the same position than you would.

I am certainly not oppressed by my religion or by my Husband but then you will not believe that as you know more about it than me after all what would I know? I am only a Muslim woman..........

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 00:15

The Saints



I am basing my comments on what I see and what I am told here in UK.



No more, no less.



I object to being called a racist by someone just because my comments or thoughts do not agree with theirs.



I am after all entitled to have my opinions as much as the next person.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 00:25

db



You see but you do not read or you read but you do not understand or you understand but are blinkered by your ignorance.

According to you I have no choice and I am oppressed by religion and by my husband yet I have told you this is not true and you still can not accept this as a fact.

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 01:06

The Saints;



Actually db isn't singling you out and you do have an english husband so coercion doesn't come into the equation.



Now if you had a muslim husband?

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 01:16

what like my many friends and family that have Muslim husbands and also have the same choices as me?

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 09:32

I converted to Islam before my marriage by choice some 37yrs ago . My husband nor my in-laws has ever expected me to change the way i dress , the only time i cover myself is by when i visit my in-laws , and that is out of respect for them , nothing else , me personally have no problems with the Burka or Hijab , my personal experience of people who do wear the the Niqab is different , i have some friends who do wear the Niqab , but not to please their husbands , far from it , for personal choice , when asked why , they say they do it for modesty reasons , their husbands have no say in it . But it is a little hypocritical , when we are at gatherings they take it off , even though there are men there they don't know ?? . In my professional capacity and personal experience , i found them to be a barrier , on a few occasions , the same person i did a new patient screen came back and registered under different names , hence applying for more benefits and houses under different names ----

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 09:55

con't . Then went on to rent out the houses . She was caught and was shown to be a pre -existing patient of many years that was a muslim . So i can see it from both sides so to speak and for different reasons . But the Niqab does indeed have origins to the desert in pre Islamic times by both sexes . It was mean't to keep out the sand when they travelled over the desert . It was also used by the women only when they were being raided , so the raiders couldn't see the women , as these raiders often took the women of child bearing age .

Happy New Year , Simbas

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 10:45

Moover, your tirade is indeed a little tiresome, and certainly arrogant, and your knowledge isn't quite as profound as you think. The Koran STATES only that a woman should cover her breasts and be clothed with modesty. It is the OPINION of others, as outlined in various haddiths, that that means wearing black abayas with hijabs, nicabs and full head veils. Whether they are strong or weak haddiths is open to question, and that can only be decided by recognised Islamic scholars.



Mrs Saints, this discussion really isn't all about you, and I don't think DB said so. It's about wearing the hijab in general, and of course it should be a woman's right to choose whether to do so or not. Unfortunately, in Saudi Arabia, where I live, it isn't. As absolute rulers of every household, the men are in TOTAL control.



There is very little threatening in a hijab. But a woman in a black abaya, hijab, nicab and veil can be concealing almost anything, even a man. And this is very much a threat.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 12:12

Simbas your post is how I understood these garments for. I put up the post as we have another thread on here re the hanging in China, and comments made regarding how we all respect other countries ways, trying not to offend others !



Moover32 does not answer questions back that are pointed, he just 'skirted ' over them, with his blah blah blah.

It struck me as being very threatening at the airport, and several people commented on how these 'ladies' portrayed themselves. Then when I went walk about in London, it seemed I had landed in Saudi Arabia! I am not racist, just very curious to how others think as well.......

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 15:44

DB / Newscoop:



We know where you stand.



What you both fail to understand is how a woman chooses to dress is HER business and her business alone



Perhaps you spend more time looking after yours and your own if you are worried about crime and other issues of what's happening in the UK



I do not need to protest as you make it out.



I simply stated the facts.



What right do you have to tell another person how to dress.



If it scares you that says something about your fear and nothing about a WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE.



Please those who believe that a husband can Islamically force his wife to wear Hijab - bring forward your evidence based on Islamic law / Qur'aan and Hadith.



The fact is you do not have any factual base save what you read in the red tops.



You guys simply choose to live behind a veil of ignorance but yet feel qualified to quote the Qur'aan when you ahve probably never even open a copy let alone read and understood it



Enjoy

awellwisher


Joined: 12/04/2009
Posts: 28

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 15:58

I do not mind as long as it doesn't compromise security. If I thought that they could pass through imigration without removing the veil I would be tempted to go through wearing a batman outfit. And yes, I would look different.



AWW

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 15:58

Rottolover:



I don't presume your lack of knowledge of Islam, and as you say the Qur'aan should be read in conjunction with the Hadith and Sunnah.



You say you quote from the Qur'aan - then you should also know in the Qur'aan itself it states that the reading of Qur'aanic injunctions should be read with Hadith & Sunnah. It is up to each woman how she inacts these requirements -it is between her and her God! No man CAN FORCE HER



If you can get off your high horse for a moment and actually read what I have written I have said one consistent theme.



How a woman chooses to drees is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.



Whether it s a Muslim or a non-Muslim woman it is her right to wear what she wants as long as it does not break the law SEE LINKS



What is TIRESOME is people on this forum who think that because they are born and bred (read white) in the UK they have the RIGHT to tell women how they should dress.



They do not.



And if a woman chooses to wear a Hijab it is her CHOICE:

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:08

Itsme:



That's what I have said. Read carefully A woman is free to dress as she wants as long as it is permissable under the law!



You mix up the right of a woman to wear what she wants with what a Muslim woman chooses to wear what she wants in terms of the Qur'aan.



1. Any woman Muslim or NOT is free to wear what she wants within the law - and it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what she chooses to wear.



2. A Muslim woman can wear a Hijab as she sees fit - it is between her and her God and no man or woman for that matter can tell her what she should wear



3. The deabte here fails to distinguish the above two points.



If point 1 is a fact point 2 is irrelevant as a woman's right under Islamic injunctions is between her and her God!



So what is the point of the Qur'aanic discussion?



1930's it was the Jews

1950's / 60's It was the Afro-Caribbean

1970's / 80's It was the Asians, Pakistanis and Indians



Now it is Muslims... See the pattern?



Enjoy

Pippie


Joined: 02/12/2009
Posts: 1288

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:13

Actually in the later books of the New Testament in the Bible, it is said that women should cover their head when praying something I asked my local vicar back home and he told me that although it doesn't tend to happen nowadays, until 10 or 20 years ago, women always tended to wear a headscarf when going to church. I've now adopted the habit of covering my head when I pray - my choice.



Out in public I wouldn't, but that's also my choice. I wasn't brought up to cover my head and I would feel uncomfortable if I did. I think it varies from community to community, and family to family as to whether it has been the girl's choice or not to cover up. I think it's wrong if a girl is being made to feel she has to cover up but if she chooses to do so then that IS her choice and we should respect that. Anyway, aren't we all living here in NC in a Muslim country. It's not our place to try to dictate anything to anyone. The locals don't dictate to us about how we should dress.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:19

Pippie:



Nicely put and well said. I wish there were more people here with a balanced perspective!





Unfortunately there are some here who think that because they were born in the UK they have a greater right -they are sadly mistaken.



Fortunately, the British Democratic process equates the rights of all its citizens irrespective of their colour, religion or gender!



If a woman chooses to wear a Hijab or walk round half naked (within the law) it is their perogative and their right.



Simply: IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS



The question you should be asking yourself is WHY is a woman's right to wear a Hijab so difficult for some to accept? If they were to dictate what could or should be worn - that would be subjugation and oppression!



Enjoy

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:39

"quite often women choose to dress like this to break the law, men also dress like this to break the law !!



How ignorant and narrow minded can one get - are you mentally sound to make such a comment? So you are telling us the millions of sisters and mothers, say only Turkey, quite often wear ... to choose to dress like this because they are criminals? ,,,, men also!!!



Millions also wear them in Afghanistan and Pakistan .... three burqa clad 'women' have so far used it in suicide attacks but that does not make the millions criminals or suicide bombers.



At the final analysis, and this is what this thread is about, is about 'us' and 'them' becuse 'them' have decided, for whatever reasons, to dress differently. But there is more to it. It is about intolerence, and bygone bigoted days but still imported into this beutiful island and by those who have increasingly found themselves even islolated in their own countries. Threatening ? in one word: crap!!

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:46

Msg 85



That is like saying you are IRISH therefore you must be a Terrorist.....

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:46

God it must be unbearable doing the ironing whilst dressed in that garb.



Each to their own.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:47

Msg 88



It is not worn in the privacy of your own home, ignorance is bliss eh....



Mike

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:50

Ok so let's stop celebrating Christmas and New Year as in your own words "IT IS TRADITION AND LIKE ALL TRADITIONS THERE IS A TIME TO MODERNISE AND MOVE ON...............

Fred8


Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:51

And in respect of this other word 'oppresson' thrown and bandied about by those who have 'spoken to people in the supermarkets" or to "friends" or what they have seen in Saudi Arabia (a very large proportion of the muslim world indeed!). It took my wife nearly a year, after long debate and study, to take the hijab up. And she is a highly qualified professional individual at one of the best organisation in the UK. Her own decsion. So much for oppression. My daughter when she is old enough will have to make up her own mind and she has been told so even though she wishes to wear one now at the age of 11.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:54

Itsme:



Sorry - you are totally deluded - There are enough whites bombing innocent civillians all over the world - some are so cowarly they use drones to bomb wedding parties whilst sitting in a bunker thousands of miles away!



But that is not the point here!



This post is about a woman's right to wear what she wants - be it a Hijab or anything else as long as it is legal



If you cannot accept that - well quite frankly that is your problem.



What a woman chooses to wear within the law is A WOMAN'S CHOICE - AND NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!



If your question is about security - perhaps you should spend a moment and read through this thread - you'll se it has been addressed - but then you are not worried about that really are you? You just want women who wear Hijab (and not all are Muslims) to be subjugated to your whims!



Sorry, being white and born in the UK doesn't give you that right - as hard as that might seem to you to believe



ENJOY

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:54

Mike,



Ironing is sometimes done outside..... I was just being a little lighthearted.



so don't be so ignorant & rude please.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 16:59

Itsme:



The only thing we can be sure of reading your posts is that you are not afraid to hide your IGNORANCE



Maybe you should put a veil around your ignorance and spare us all from such irrelevance!



If you care to read - seems you have an innate probelm with that



1. Any woman Muslim or NOT is free to wear what she wants within the law - and it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what she chooses to wear.



2. A Muslim woman can wear a Hijab as she sees fit - it is between her and her God and no man or woman for that matter can tell her what she should wear



3. The deabte here fails to distinguish the above two points.



If point 1 is a fact point 2 is irrelevant as a woman's right under Islamic injunctions is between her and her God!



So what is the point of the Qur'aanic discussion?



1930's it was the Jews



1950's / 60's It was the Afro-Caribbean



1970's / 80's It was the Asians, Pakistanis and Indians



Now it is Muslims... See the pattern?



ENJOY

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:00

Tiggy



I have never seen ironing being done outside, your supposed lightheartedness can not cloak the racist undertones of the comment wether intentional or not.



Rude and ignorant not in this instance, sometimes I suppose we all are but racist I am not, not even in Jest.



Mike

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:05

Tiggy:



You past posts betray you claim to 'innocent jest'.



You know what you are and from your posts so do we.



The least you can be honest to yourself if to no one else.



I have more respect for people like DusterBruce - who can admit that he can be racist.



You hide behind the so called niceties of humour!



You are a sad person!



Hope you will enjoy your New Year and at least make a resolution to spread goodwill.



Hope is better than FEAR and HATRED - Remember?



ENJOY

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:10

My partner irons outside in the shade whilst we are in Cyprus.



Please do not put your PC crap on me and brand me a racist. easy to make the statement but difficult to defend it.



You are indeed a Saint........ a clean soul.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:10

What about the Irish extremists, they Bombed the streets of Britain, Disco's, Killed women and Children



Or have you missed them out because they are Christian terrorists which of course make all the difference to a racist.



Mike

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:12

Tiggy



I refer you to message 97.



Mike

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:13

Itisme:



You are not very smart are you?



So you blame the the entire Muslim population for the actions of a few?



Tell me all the actions of the IRA in the UK and in Ireland were done in the name of Christianity?



The Crusades were done in the name of Christianity?



Please if you want to balme 1.6 billion people fpr the actions of a few then start by looking at the actions of the USA and the UK who have started more wars, killied more INNOCENT people than any other nation on this planet!



Please - get a handle on your own history before you make such absurd comments!



The pattern is clear you are whether you like it or not deeply anti-Muslim and that in my book is racist!



Perhaps the admin people should look at your postings and see if they conform to the standard required here!



The only thing you have established here is you IGNORANCE



ENJOY



HOPE IS BETTER THAN HATRED Something you ought to resolve to learn for New Year lol

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:15

So the Catholic and Protestants never comitted attricities to each other in NI get real.....





Mike

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:19

Itsme:



So you are here for an education as well as to show how shallow and ridiculous you can be in debating?



The Crusades were not doing it in the name of religion? Really?



The Anti-Sematic actions were not based on religion?



The war on Iraq - was according to G W Bush a 'Crusade' quote



Like I said keep on writing - the more you write the clearer all will see your deep rooted hatred of Muslims and your racist ignorance



ENJOY

awellwisher


Joined: 12/04/2009
Posts: 28

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:30

At least in the UK they have a choice. It annoys me to see our Queen and Maggie Thatcher covering their heads when in Saudi Arabia. Funy how the most repressive people seem to want the most choice for themselves. PC's in the UK will say it is the custom in that country; why can't we have customs in the UK.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:31

Itsme:



The thread is about the Hijab.



It is a woman's right to choose what she wears within the law.



It has become in the eyes of some - like you a vilification of Muslims.



Wearing the Hijab is LEGAL.



And if a woman choses towear one it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS - NOW WHICH APRT OF THAT IS SO DIFFICULT FOR YOU?



The fact that you choose to say that a few fantatics commit acts of terror the entire community should be blamed?



From this I asked you - should all Christians be responsibe for the Crusades?1930's it was the Jews



1950's / 60's It was the Afro-Caribbean



1970's / 80's It was the Asians, Pakistanis and Indians



Now it is Muslims... See the pattern?



So now we should blame 1.6 billion Muslims for the act of a few?



Your reasoning would be sad if it wasn't so pathethic.



It is people like you who villified the Jews, Blacks and Asians and now it is the Muslims.



There will always be a reason in your eyes!



Hope is better than hatred

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:34

So is msg 2 rascist?



Moover & Saints you seem to be teamed up together and slinging racist tags on several peolpe here.



sometimes it is easy to hide behind a PC, would like to see how people behave face to face. From the amount of reply's the pair of you have made I can see they will not be the last of your garbage. this will be mine.



If only you pair knew how to celebrate.



Mike shall I keep a lookout for a new iron for vinera in the sales?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:35

Awellwisher:



Your leaders bow to these despots becasue it protects defence jobs and energy intersts for the UK.



Sure have your culture - change the laws democratically - ban hijab - and then sit alone at home with a candle and no energy and no jobs!



This world is inter connected. many things we don't like - but we put up with for the greater good.



One of those things is the rule of law in a democratic system.



The Hijab is a legal dress code - if any woman chooses to wear it be it a Muslim or a non-Muslim it is their choice and quite frankly - none of your business



ENJOY

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:43

Tiggy:



Happy New Year to you too )



Here's hoping that hope will grow in your soul and that colour, religion and gender will not be a basis for your crass attempts at humour.



Yes, I do not how to celebrate - but it is usually with people who know how to respect others and not inflict their prejuidice view of life on others.



You may call it PC - I prefer to call is being part of the HUMAN RACE



Not to judge or be judged because you happen to be a black, asian, white or any other colour under the rainbow....nor on their religion....code of dress or their culture etc.,



I have worked in many countries and have learnt that people are much the same everywhere - family, friends, work, and with aspirations to do better with whatever they have



I have also learnt that there are always a few who get their kicks from knocking a minority because of their colour, culture, religion or even code of dress!



I wonder in which category you and your ilk fall in?



ENJOY

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:43

Deleted as per rule 3 (be polite)

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:43

Hi in the koran it says lower their gaze or something similar to both sexers

most muslim countries dont wear it and respect the opposite sex

until some understand that meaning they will wear it it's mostly made customery by men in some states ie soudi arabia ensuring they were in control of their women and their status as second class citizens

in the times of the Prophet he had to control men and their habits and the 5 times prayers were to keep thier minds focussed and so would not have time to become evil doers you know what I mean!

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 17:51

Tiggy:



As far as being called a racist - I would simply say this - Personally I do not known your inner thoughts or how you live your life. What I do know is what you have said here and on other threads.



If the cap fits - wear it!



If you believe in equality and justice - and not judging an entire nation by the acts of a few - that you have tollerance and an openess to learn and accept that life has always changed and will continue to change and as much as we would like to return to the 'so called good ol' days' those days were not as good as we recall...and change is not all bad



Then there is much to be discussed and debated to help the world in which all live!



But when the focus is 'our streets' (message1) and a deep rooted hatred of Muslim women who choose to wear hijab loosely disguised as issues of security - then there is a serious problem.



The trouble is there are some here who easily fall in to 'group think' and cannot see how offensive they are!



ENJOY

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 18:09

May your god go with you &, bless you 2 R Souls.



I'm soon off to the BNP's New years fancy dress bash, must not forget to iron my white linen sheet.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 18:14

More to be pittied than scolded, a perfect example of the failings of the care in the community policy..........

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 18:20

Tiggy:



Enjoy your bash - just remember when you get back .... we'll still be here!



Here to stay - here to fight!



Hope is better than hatred



Happy New Year to NG too - if you happen to bump in to him in the dark...don't mistaken him for a genuine Brit But give him a big hug from me and all the other UK citizens who happen not to be like you



ENJOY

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 18:24

Basheer:



You are correct.



The Qur'aan implores BOTH sexes to lower their gaze. The issue of dress modestly applies equally to men and women.



The point of this thread is not about women in Islam.



It is about women in the UK wearing Hijab and what others here on the forum think about it!



Some believe they have the right to tell women what they can and cannot wear - i.e. Dizzycows, DB, Newscoop because it is 'frightening', because of the security risks and others such as Itsme who want to make this a deabte about Muslims and terrorism.



They simply cannot see that they want someone to change how they dress to appease them and this is the ultimate form of subjugation and oppression. Their fear and prejuidice dictates what other should be allowed to wear!



My argument is simple.



What ANY woman chooses to wear is her business as long as it is legal.



The question I would ask is why has this become an issue of Islam?



I think you can draw your own conclusions

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 18:28

Sorry if this causes unrest , but i do this after careful consideration , { and i mean careful } It has caused upset and insult to people , and that is not what this forum is about .

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 18:29

This thread is now closed. Reason: Thread was serving no purpose.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 18:49

(...) The war on Iraq - was according to G W Bush a 'Crusade' (...)

=> Mr. Bush didn't know what he was talking about - like some gentlefolk in this thread. For your historical information: an armed Roman Catholic pilgrimage, usually meant to liberate one of the holy places from infidels (the first one called for in 1095 by Pope Urban II, centuries later called a "Crusade"): such an enterprise needed the written blessing of the Pope. There are seven (some historians say eight) main, official Crusades and hundreds of less important Crusades throughout the centuries. In the Levant, in Southern France, in Spain, in Eastern Europe - but no Pope blessed the American/UK attack of Iraq. Conclusion: Mr. Bush spoke historical nonsense. Let's not imitate him in this thread.

NanaJan



Joined: 15/10/2009
Posts: 90

Message Posted:
31/12/2009 19:41

I travel to Saudi Arabia on business and did live there for many years with my husband who did business there.



I wore the abaya and headscarf when going out to the shops because I felt more comfortable doing that even though we are both Christians. The abaya's are light and cool in the heat and these days they have the most lovely embroidery on them and look really feminine.



Inside the house the Saudi women dress smartly and some of the nightwear that they sell over there would make the Ann Summers party ladies blush. They are not oppressed but happy doing what they have always done.



They tell me they feel sorry for the Western ladies because they have to do their own housework whilst most of them have maids to do their work like ironing and cleaning. Also they have cars and drivers to take them to where they want to go for lunch because they do not work but are provided for by their husbands and families. They have children but have maids to look after them. Oppressed I don't