Do you remember Jamie Bulger xxxx

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 16:13

Do you recal 1993 when two 1o year old boys took and tortured 3 year old Jamie. Then threw him onto a train line. The body was so bad that his mother was not allowed to identify him. Well this week Lady Justice Bulter Sloss has awarded anomymity to Jon Venableds and Robert Thompson . They are now young men and served just over half thier sentances. They are to leave custody early to be relocated to Austrila to a new life. What justice is this you can take a childs life and get yourself a new life at tax payers expense x

eager


Joined: 23/02/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 16:18

Tragic case, believe his parents split up and his father lives in NC

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 16:19

Lilli still think those young boys knew what they were doing. They were old enough to know right from wrong, again its making a mockery of our system.



My heart goes out to that poor mother of that dear little boy Jamie... xx

smithy


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 5301

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 16:20

I thought they had already been released, I think its dreadful after what they did, I believe they have already done photo's of what they look like now, lets hope they get their just rewards one way or another.

How can you ever forget that dear little boy. Why should they now live normal lives when little Jamie's life was cut short they knew what they were doing.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 16:24

Absolutely tragic what happened to that baby boy.

Blackie


Joined: 20/12/2007
Posts: 129

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 16:30

It is my understanding that they actually left custody some time ago. I read an interesting article about them recentely. It pointed out that they were taken out of a disfuctional environment when the only future they would have was a life of petty crime in a sink estate, they had no real future to look forward to. They were placed in an environment where they had very few negative influences and had an almost one to one education and all the support they required to succed in life. It was reported that they did very well educationaly. The conclusion that the article drew was that killing jamie was the best thing that could have happened to them. It is no justice whatsoever I only hope that especially if they have children of their own that the ghost of Jammie haunts them forever.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 16:31

Again the system is not for the victims but for the law breakers.....

parkview



Joined: 12/03/2009
Posts: 1123

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 16:34

I know what I would like to have done to them but could not say publically, some people are just born evil!

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 16:35

I thought they were released after serving just 8 years. They were 10 when it happened and were released when they reached 18. I assumed they were living in Australia. They must be in their middle to late twenties now. Probably married and got children of their own.

orangekazzie



Joined: 31/07/2007
Posts: 1091

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 16:52

God help their own children if they ever have any.

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 16:54

Although I agree that they did a terrible thing, these boys had been brought up on a diet of violent videos and were born in to dysfunctional families. I will never condone what they did but I do believe that their environment played a huge part in this. Why bring this up now, what purpose does it serve? You say 10 year olds know the difference from right and wrong, possibly if they were of above average intelligence but not if you are below it, as both these boys were when they committed this crime. They have served their time and both been rehabilated, lets hope they can do some good with the rest of their lives. I for one don't think they will ever forget what they did when they were ten, they were children, children are not born evil but only copy what they see around them.



The butlers wife

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 17:04

Hi Lilli. I totally agree what must the mother think , thats british justice for you.



Keith.

PeeCee


Joined: 16/03/2009
Posts: 133

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 17:08

Without doubt this was so tragic for everyone. Like others, I thought that the boys had been released sometime ago. We must accept that the prison service in the UK seeks to reform as well as punish. There is no reason to believe that those boys, now young men, will commit further crimes let alone murder or abuse children.

parkview



Joined: 12/03/2009
Posts: 1123

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 17:21

I can't believe you say these young men will not commit further crimes, have they not done enough already? have we forget how violent Jamie's death was. They have taken a child away from his parents. Those parents lives will never be the same again. They must live that nightmare night after night. And what chance did Jamie Bulgar have to go on and become a young man and have children, none! I am sick of hearing about children being excused for bad behaviour due to bad upbringing. I have friends with terrible backgrounds that knew right from wrong instinctively. This is what's wrong with the UK nowadays, children killing and mugging and blaming it on their poor backgrounds. Get a grip and grow up, life is not easy. My heart goes out to the family of Jamie.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 17:22

Hi all you could be right about the release date. It was on my email today. In am having trouble with my email and every so often throws up older mail. Im very sorry. However how do you cal that justice x

Harold2555



Joined: 19/04/2008
Posts: 1139

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 17:52

Lilli



Its not justice, because when they committed the killing they were below the age of Criminal reaponsibility. That is an arbitrary number but the system does not look for punishment for wrong doers below that age.



It's the downside of having written rules and laws, sometimes they seem to throw up ridiculous situations but they are there as a safety net to prevent arbitrary and possibly ill considered reactions (not saying that the reactions are ill considered here, its a general point).



One can only hope that the environment these two killers were placed in has allowed them to develop a proper sense of right and wrong and that wherever they are, in the quiet of night the enormity of their transgression haunts them forever.



None of this is any consolation to Jamie's family and friends of course and they have my heartfelt sympathy.



Harold

smithy


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 5301

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 17:54

Parkview I agree 200% with you may they go on to have the most horrible lives and be haunted with what they have done, as Jamie's parents are now living with. God bless little Jamie

Whistler


Joined: 28/07/2008
Posts: 1332

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 18:24

I understand that after they killed Jamie they had actually got another child in a railway station when they were caught.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 18:39

I believe they went to Australia ages ago, and in spite of petitions asking for them not to be sent there - they ARE there. Australian peoples did not want them, and it puts the clock back to the days when Australia was colonised with English 'criminals' many of whom had merely stolen a sheep to feed their families.

This old e mail keeps cropping up, but started years ago when they were due to be released. It could have been when they were 18. But obviously I reckon they must be keeping their noses clean, or Australia would have caught them and slung them back to U.K.

Let's just hope that some good can come out of this awful evil that was perpetrated on poor little trusting Jamie. I guess also there is the possibility of 'there but for the grace of God go I'. None of us know what we might have been with different parents/backgrounds etc.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 18:40

I know from certain sources that they are now living with protected identities back in the UK in the Accrington area. These two horrifically evil individuals were old enough to torture and eventually murder...............so they are old enough to be "put down". Our "criminal justice system" is an abhorrent failure, and because of such, we as a society have failed to protect innocents. Nobody who was hanged EVER murdered anyone else.

clayton


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 1143

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 18:49

clarets

a drop of an adress in the right places would be nice

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 19:04

I don't believe anyone is born evil. Upbringing and socialization is vital in ensuring that children

develop into human beings, and it was sadly lacking in this case. Horrific though their crime was

I would not like to see a return to the dark days of children being executed. Two wrongs don't

make a right. We have all been capable of cruelty when young, and hopefully they will live with

guilt of this for the rest of their lives.

TheScarlets



Joined: 14/04/2009
Posts: 877

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 19:16

Let's hope they are given the respect they deserve and are dealt with severely!

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 19:23

Hi Clayton,much as I would feel inclined to do so.......alas, I cannot !

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 19:24

Phylray.....children have been executed....James Boulger for one,and the execution was not legal nor sanctioned by any state!

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 19:59

msg 11...i agree wholeheartedly with your post...but then i don't have children. I do find the whole psychology on child development absolutely riveting, as in i believe that anyone one of us, given the right circumstances 'could' have made a wrong turn in development....



Here is an interesting view on why kids kill...( i am very interested in this subject, hence the googling)



http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/22123899/why-kids-kill.htm



DD

clayton


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 1143

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 20:13

hi clarets

accrington not to far from the big cities.liverpool,manchester.someone will find them.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 21:21

To right Clarerts, these young individuals would know at the age of ten, and I wish people would not keep on harping on about its the way they were brought up,! Blame their enviroment, blame the parents, Christ when I was 5 I knew if I had hurt my brother and it was wrong! and he was 8yrs older than me.

They are plain evil and if it had been a 100 yrs ago they would have been hanged.

So it does not cut any ice with me, when people stick up for such a wrong doing......



I as a mother would wait for a hundred years to get at those two boys and rip them to shreds if it had happened to one of my sons...

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 21:26

I covered the case as part of a case study, some of the little boy's injuries were not even given to the parents as they were disgusting, detectives involved in the case still have counselling. Their age meant that they were considered to young to be responsible for their crimes and bearing in mind the totally inappropriate up bringing they had this to was taken into account when sentence was passed.

Such was the outrage at the case their was only ever two options, life imprisonment or a new identity because if not then somebody would surely have attempted to kill them upon their release. Believe you me no-body but a chosen few will know where these two are ever, the procedure of new identity is complex and top secret.

jinyx


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 22:19

So there we have it ...accrington....australia..... kingston upon thames..... ????? in other words you all know JACK SHIT. the nearest one with the truth is msg 29: This case was a sad sad reflection of modern times, and isn't helped by the hang em flog em brigade. What they did was so terrible it cant be absorbed into the average mind, and quite rightly. Jamies mother and father's hurt every day over what happened to their little beautiful toddler, Jamie, but as much as it hurts with the most terrible searing mental pain that non of you could ever imagine, they have got on with their lives, but will never never forget. One thing is for sure, seeing this , three thousand miles and 15/16 years from where and when it happened dosnt help them get over it, for gods sake let it rest for Jamies sake, and prey that no other parent or parents ever have to go through that terrible, never ending nightmare that people keep reminding them off. God bless you jamie and all those with you x

SandyBlackCat


Joined: 12/07/2008
Posts: 55

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 22:21

They were released in June 2001. There's an article in Snopes about these outdated e-mails that is worth a look at:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/bulger.asp

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 22:24

Thank you Blackpoolfan, for bearing out what I have always believed. That these two boys were a victim of their up bringing and were considered to young to be responsible for their actions. I repeat again that I do not condone what they did and as a mother and grandmother myself do not know how I would re-act if they had hurt one of mine. I will repeat that children are not born evil but only copy what they are allowed to see. People will always have their own thoughts on cases like this and no amount of dialogue will change their minds. Perhaps all the people who consider these two boys evil and want to string them up, should consider how they would feel if the boys were their sons, grandsons, nephews, cousins. Would they think the same, I think not?



The butlers wife

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 23:02

This is, understandably, another very emotive subject and there will be many differing points of view. I appreciate that the two boys came from dysfunctional families and basically did not have the best beginnings in their lives; of that, there is no doubt. However (and I know this will annoy people) I am a great believer of nature over nurture. Some have said that children are not born evil; the same people have said these children came from highly dysfunctional families. Now, you have a child - it looks like you/it's other parent, as is to be expected. Where do children get their 'personalities' from? Obviously, from the man/woman made them. Ergo, you have parents who are not 'good' people - you are made from your parents' genes - so what gene pool are their offspring from? We all see traits in our children/grandchildren that we see in ourselves. I agree that these 2 boys MAY have had a better chance in life had their upbringing been better, but I firmly believe (cont'd)

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 23:06

that the acts carried out by the boys were evil (as I think is backed up by Blackpoolfan's post - the repercussions are evident). This was not a childhood prank, a bit of mischief. It was an act of depravity. I appreciate kids copy their parents' behaviour - my God, what ever did they experience in their (till then) short lives, to prompt such an act?



Whatever people's beliefs, it will not bring the poor little soul back.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 23:09

butlers wife, I do not know how I would feel, but I cannot feel pity for any one that takes a babs life like they did....

On the reason that these boys had copyied someone and didnt know the difference, what you are saying is these boys saw a child being tortured and mutilated? so they copied? In that case there should be a lot more boys doing what they did as the vidio games that are around now are 100 times more violent.....

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 23:18

dizzycows,



The evidence is on the streets of London everyday, with at least one fatal stabbing or shooting. Life is now very cheap. Why???





The butlers wife

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 23:30

I don't think we will ever forget this little boy and the sad pictures though. I watched a programme

recently in which his mother recalled the nightmare and how she has survived, somehow.

If these boys identities are secreted then surely any girl who might get involved with them should

have a right to know what their past is.

jinyx


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 23:31

I'm sorry I have to do this, I'll have to put it quite simply, someone very near to this sad subject might ,and just more than might, be reading this, so for gods sake and theirs, let it drop and close this post, let it rest please, let people get on with their lives without reminding them of the part of their life they will never, never, ever forget. God bless, (and has) you little J x

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 23:39

phylray - I seem to remember (I may well be wrong) reading somewhere, at the time, that neither of these boys showed any remorse for what they had done. Now, it was put forward that they were too young to comprehend their actions. When my son was 10, he what was wrong and what was right. 10 years old is not too young to know right from wrong, surely.



With regard to your point about any girl/woman becoming involved with either of them - how can either of these 2 kids live with what they have done (that is, of course, assuming they have consciences?).



Regards.



Jean

YeniTom


Joined: 29/12/2009
Posts: 198

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 23:42

Ref the last post.



You are quite right jinyx, this post should be closed. Debating this after all these years does no good.



What would have done some good would have been to keep the evil two in prison until they were eighteen and then hang them Then discussions would have finished years ago.



I'm sorry this post is hard but having been around for a few years I've listened to many people saying that society etc. is to blame. No it's not.



People like that know exactly what they are doing and should pay the price.

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
08/01/2010 23:56

We all judge by what we see and to a lesser extent what we read in the papers. Children are not born murderers or thieves so if you read about a child who had been convicted of numerous thefts or shoplifting offences in the paper you may well think just another scum bag or druggy. The reason this 9 year old boy had been stealing was to fund his mother's drug habit and his father's alcohol.

If the boy did not steal then he and his 6 year old sister did not eat and his father would beat him with a metal buckled belt. Can you begin to understand the pressure that boy was under and the emotional damage this will cause in later life, believe you me in 85% of cases look no further than the PARENTS for it is them who are responsible. We then go in remove the children place them with loving foster parents and then get slagged off by the family for breaking them up, its a no win situation the shame of it is their are hundreds of other cases out there.........

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
09/01/2010

jinyx -I am assuming, from the tone of your post, that you know someone close to the subject matter. For myself, I apologise if any distress has been caused. However, I'm afraid to say that it will be talked about for many years to come. Sadly.



I will say that I hope the poor little soul rests in peace. (I'm sure he does, bless him).



J

YeniTom


Joined: 29/12/2009
Posts: 198

Message Posted:
09/01/2010 00:02

Msg 41. Typically leftist fogging Blackpool fan.



I don't believe the evil two were treated in this way. They did what they did out of evil and not pressure.

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
09/01/2010 00:02

jinx, couldn't agree more. I did ask in msg11 why this had been dragged up again. Time to put it to bed, as it is not doing any good raking over this.







The butlers wife

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
09/01/2010 00:05

Message 39,

You miss the point, children who are bought up correctly in a stable loving home as i am sure your children were are taught right from wrong its part of good parenting skills.

Therefore those that aren't brought up in a stable normal envoirement usually don't know right from wrong that's when the problems begin.............

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
09/01/2010 00:09

Yenitom,

" leftist fogging" dont understand your reply?? I will hazard a guess you are taking the p*ss and are therfore devoid of any compassion........

YeniTom


Joined: 29/12/2009
Posts: 198

Message Posted:
09/01/2010 00:27

Msg 46



Blackpool fan. I am not trying to take the p*ss and I am not devoid of compassion - where it is deserved. In my opinion, as hard as it is cold blooded, premeditiated, uncompassionate acts do not deserve it.

jinyx


Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
09/01/2010 00:27

Jeannie, your more than right...... thanks x

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
09/01/2010 01:08

jinyx - you're welcome (if that's the right expression). I'm sure you know what I mean.



Warm regards.



Jean

x

PeeCee


Joined: 16/03/2009
Posts: 133

Message Posted:
09/01/2010 14:08

You're right - this post should be closed. It is neither helpful or constructive. All life is precious and young life even more so. Young child on child murders are rare. It is far more common for young children to loose their lives at the hands of their parents or parent's lovers/friends; dog owners who can't control their so called pets; as innocent bystanders in war and conflict ( countless thousands in Afganistan; Iraq; Gaza); because of some crazed gun/axe man; through the action of fanatics who blow themselves up and don't care who they take with them; drunk/speeding motorists; because politics gets in the way for getting medicines to cure and food to nourish them. Need I go one. Weep but please weep for them all.

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
09/01/2010 22:50

Jeannie Yes, I agree that at 10 our children do know right from wrong, but that is because

we have taught them, and to value all life, and to feel for other, particularly the weak and helpless

but these kids haven't been taught that. The parents must accept blame here, and maybe they do

as I remember one of the fathers crying in court. I did teach for a time in a List D (delinquent)

school and listening to some of the boys' stories I felt the parents should have been in there instead

of them. They had not committed murders (there was a special unit for rapists & murders) but

they were some of the most difficult children in Scotland, and yet most of them were very likeable.



regards

BoTanica


Joined: 22/12/2009
Posts: 714

Message Posted:
09/01/2010 22:58

One of those boys (cant remember which one) sobbed and threw his arms around a detectives waist whilst being questioned. The boys were 10 years old, What they did was awful but they were children. Something went wrong , very wrong somewhere, but I dont think any of us are qualified to say what that was......

Vidal


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 867

Message Posted:
09/01/2010 23:12

Re mess 41 'Children are not born murderers or thieves'



I believe the opposite. A very young child does not know how to share, they will see something pretty and take it, they will squeeze a pet too hard, or bite, scratch or pinch a playmate. If there are not loving parents around to teach them the right way to do things, to wait for your turn, not to take things that dont belong to you and to be kind to smaller weaker creatures or people, then how will they know. There are children who are left to bring themselves up and some are survivors and come into adulthood as decent human beings... some are not so lucky.

clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
10/01/2010 12:09

I totally disagree with Blackpoolfans comment about parental pressure casuing these two evil bas**** to do what they did. Whilst I agree that their parents should have been sterilised(so should anyone who commits grievous crimes)Thompson and Venables did what they did because they wanted to......nobody forced those atrocities on them ! They do now live in Accrington.....despite all the empty supposition on here. Had James Boulger been my child.......I would have hunted those two down until drawing my last breath,to make certain they knew real terror before their executions. They are far worse than animals and should be executed. Criminals age of resposibility is an arbitrary age chosen by people who know nothing about child development nor plain right & wrong. Those two knew exactly what they were doing and that it was evil. If you know what you are doing and know it is still wrong, you should be prepared to have the ultimate sanction thrown at you.

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
10/01/2010 13:51

Clarets,

You are of course entitled to your opinion, radical and inappropriate as it is coming from a GP. You talk of sterilisation and execution and allow your emotions as a parent to take over. These two should have been locked up for ever for what they did,and who knows why they did it and whether their upbringing and the environment they lived in had anything to do with it. As for Accrington i am sure Plod would be very interested as to how you came by this information, you must be right if you say so after all you are a gp........................