The Orams lose - statement from David and Linda

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 12:20

the Orams have 'lost, and here is a statement from them received 5 mins ago. But there is hope which one can read from the last sentence. Chin up folks - this might not be the end.



"The result is very disappointing and a blow to us but we will not let it ruin our lives.



We believe that we unwittingly became entangled in an extremely complex political situation, the dispute between the Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities over property in Cyprus.



We know that the ruling will also be of great concern to the many foreign property-owners in Cyprus.



We will study the Judgment and consider whether there is anything further to be done. Failing that, we will have to take steps, as far as possible given the political situation in Cyprus, to comply with the Judgment.



We continue to believe that only a political settlement can resolve the property issue and we hope that the Judgment will not undermine that process. "

Vidal


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 867

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 12:30

Good luck to them. I feel quite emotional...



I think we all knew really but just hoped eh.

sloan



Joined: 24/02/2009
Posts: 808

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 12:32

My thoughts are with them, too. Can't help thinking 'What happens now? for them and others in a similar positin.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 12:34

I think we all feel quite emotional 'Vidal' but what I forgot to say in the first posting is that anyone wishes their feelings relayed to David and Linda, either write them here, or write to me at my e mail address (if you are a member of Cyprus 44 you wil find it), and I will glad pass them on, although they may well read this anyway.

I don't know, but would have thought that it would take a long time for a decision to be made as to HOW Apostolides can be recompensed for his 'great loss' (tongue in cheek), so the Orams willneed continuing strength. We are with them, though - aren't we?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 12:37

This is potentially bad news for all EU expats here with (im)movable possessions in the EU. I can hardly believe that this verdict in the UK will NOT undermine or even blow up "the Talks". How can Mr. Talat discuss the property problem any further now the Greek speaking Cypriots have "solved" this problem in TRNC (in their view)?!

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 12:39

I for one am certainly with them . But I would like to read the full report on this decision !!

everon


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 956

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 12:40

we have been thinking about them all morning! we would like to wish them "good luck" in whatever they decide to do with the rest of their lives xx

spangles


Joined: 22/10/2008
Posts: 411

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 12:41

Yes we are Marion. Please send our best wishes to them.

smithy


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 5301

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 12:48

please pass on my message to them Maria

How sad after such a long fight, god bless them, please wish them well in all that they do

sheila

gooligan


Joined: 30/01/2007
Posts: 1591

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 12:51

Ok so the Oram's are still appealling the original court desicion in the south citing they didn't have enough time to prepare a defense,translation of documents etc.What happens if they win that appeal?

All subsequent desicions have been based on the original court judgement in the south and therefore should crumble like a pack of cards if the original desicion is declared invalid.Just a thought.

Traveller0392


Joined: 21/03/2008
Posts: 186

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 12:54

Good morning to you Mr Dutch...



I didn't have you down as a gloom and doom monger .... however .... isn't it the same when everytime there is 'sensational' news, that everyone jumps on the 'bandwagon'. I do like your ability to make predictions, and would ask in 'your opinion'..... where is the common sense factor in all of this? The property complaints commission has been in place for a long time, however the Greek Cypriot government under the direction of Papadopulos, advised his citizens not to use it, whereby the situation we see today at the high court comes out of a private route to end what is in effect, a political situation. Who is running the show?.... a very dynamic situation and not one with a simple conclusion. If I am not reading the same news as you, please forgive me, but from my perspective, the talks have been 'long dead'..... ...

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:02

To Pipie, I would suggest that you will be able to find the whole court decision etc on line when they get around to posting. Just search David and Linda Orams and no doubt it will pop up.



As to the others like Dutch, I am sure the politicians will now have a field day, but someone has to decide what compensation, and we have all known for a while that any adverse decision will affect many EU peoples, and it could create a tsunami of court cases around the EU. The south should NEVER have been alloowed into the E.U but they were and now there are consequences.



As to good wishes, I will pass them all on and more, and it is good to see the flood of concern there is for David and Linda who have managed to remain sane! More than I think I would have done.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:09

Now we will see what the GC’s real intentions are. Could it be cases against all suppliers to the TRNC, down to the last nail and packet of crisps? The Orams, have been used as pawns in a far bigger game. I hope somewhere there will be justice for them, perhaps in this still outstanding case against the Roc court.



Troodo.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:10

The TRNC government has had 6 years to prepare for this verdict - and what has it done? ZILCH!



It is not the end. How can it be?



Outside of the 10 or 15 thousand foreign owners the vast majority of properties in the TRNC are owned / occupied by the TCs.



Cannot see the GCs coming with EU writs to move 150,000 TCs out of their homes.



Also a significant portion of the land in the south is owned by TCs.



The final solution can be and will be a 'Political' one.



The problem TCs and others are now faced with is what incentive is there for the GC to compromise?



It will affect the economy. House prices will inevitably challenge further lows.



My question as always is this: What has the TRNC government done to protect investors in its country?



Sadly, therein lies the biggest problem - too much greed and self-vested interest by the TCs has put most of the foreign owners with EU assets at a huge risk. Since they cannot vote - they don't really seem to count for the politi

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:10

As I say need to read full report but it just states by BBC NEWS that the Orams have been ordered to demolish there forein home no mention of any consequences to there UK property.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:11

...Cont'd



they don't seem to count for the politcial elite.



It will lead to a fall off in investment. It will in turn affect the wider economy as 30% of the economy is reliant on the property and construction sector.



More job losses, more uncertainty....less investment.



The issue is one of CONFIDENCE and unfortunately the TRNC government does not inspire (at least to date) any confidence in what they are prepared to do to counter this potential sunami heading towards the north of Cyprus!

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:15

As the talks have been effectively dead since they began, I don't think "the decision" will alter a thing.



But as to "the decision", just exactly what is it (in non-legal understandspeak) that the Orams now must do? Have they been told to get out of their villa and demolish it? Have they been told they must pay compensation to Apostolides? If so, how much? Have they been told to hand over what property they own in Britain to Apostolides?



What if they respectfully decline to do anything?

petez


Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 560

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:17

here is a story from the Cyprus Mail...



http://www.cyprus-mail.com/node/69591

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:18

Are you all still happy to support the Greek Cypriot economy by spending your money in their shops hotels and restaurants and using their airports when they treat foreign residents and property owners of the TRNC in this way?

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:19

Geez, Moover, a "sunami (sic) heading towards the north of Cyprus!"



What tsunami would that be exactly?



Talk about gloom and doom...what exactly, realistically, do you think is now going to change?

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:19

It was alleged at the London hearing that Judge Skouris had close links with the President of Cyprus, who had bestowed the island's highest honour on him.

sloan



Joined: 24/02/2009
Posts: 808

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:21

THe GC are already gloating:



http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus28232.html

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:23

Msg 17, this may answer your question.



Cease trespassing on the land belonging to Apostolides;



- Deliver up possession of the land to Apostolides;



- Pay ‘mesne profits’ (effectively, rent) to Apostolides in respect of the period of their occupation;



- Knock down the villa and fencing they had built on the land; and



- Pay certain sums in respect of Apostolides’s costs of the proceedings.



The Orams will also be ordered to pay the legal fees incurred by Apostolides, regarding the London and Luxembourg proceedings.

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:23

Did thE orams ever receive any deeds ?

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:25

Thanks The Saints.



Now could you also answer my last question too?

tarry67


Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 1053

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:25

I didnt think that greeks could own any land or property here in the trnc, as this was the law a couple of years ago. If he pulls the villa down which builder here would be brave enough to build another or which agent would be brave enough to advertise it. Would he ever be able to live in it..!!!!!!

My uk friends in the Pafos just called me and said it is like new years eve in the street next to them with the celebrations going on.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:28

Rotolover:



They have to 'obey' the ROC judgement.



If they fail they will have their UK assets seized and could be helpd in 'contempt of court'.



The ROC ordered them to do the following:



Cease trespassing on the land belonging to Apostolides;



- Deliver up possession of the land to Apostolides;



- Pay ‘mesne profits’ (effectively, rent) to Apostolides in respect of the period of their occupation;



- Knock down the villa and fencing they had built on the land; and



- Pay certain sums in respect of Apostolides’s costs of the proceedings.



The Orams will also be ordered to pay the legal fees incurred by Apostolides, regarding the London and Luxembourg proceedings.



Don't worry the Orams have been 'backed' by vested interests in the TRNC so it is likely they will get some support in all of this.



However, the TRNC govt by doing nothing to counter this sunami heading this way for the last 6+ years has left EU investors in the TRNC 'hanging out to dry' for any GC

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:30

Oppps Tsunami Apologies - typos galore with outrage

stockiefan


Joined: 04/05/2009
Posts: 574

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:30

I would rather set fire to it than hand it over!! (accidently of course)

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:34

well the decision was expected. it was not about justice or fairness. once again it was only about whether a court judgement in one EU country can be enforced in another EU memebr country - that is all but the case was not defended in the ROC courts.



It will certainly have an effect on property and the talks. Anyone buying other than pre-74 clear title property must be prepared to lose their investment just like gambling. They can also invest if they do not have any assets in any EU country. So the message is very clear.



I would like to see the Turkish government introduce cheap flights into the north and take away all the tourist trade from the southern airports - that would be a good start!

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 13:35

There will be some elements of the judgement that they may not be able to comply with, will the TRNC government actually give permission to knock the house/fences etc down? I don't think so, what happens then?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
19/01/2010 14:03

What will change?



Immediately not a lot. The TRNC will still be here in the morning and so will many of the EU investors.



It does give GC the right to pursue more EU foreigners through the ROC courts.



It removes the incentive for the GC to 'settle' with the TCs.



But it will impact on house prices as those who want to sell start a 'dutch auction' and of course fewer investors from the EU who have assets to protect.



For the Orams they 'will' have to take the actions required by the ROC or be held in contempt of court.



Maybe, just maybe it will force the TRNC government to look after everyone here and not just the elite and well connected or those who are TC by an accident of birth!

kathy88


Joined: 01/12/2009
Posts: 39

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 15:25

its sad and i feel sorry for the orams...but on the bright side now the turkish cy can buy back all the land and house s ect they sold !! for a price they can once agin afford........

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 15:28

http://www.famagusta-gazette.com/default.asp?sourceid=&smenu=69&twindow=Default&mad=No&sdetail=10086&wpage=&skeyword=&sidate=&ccat=&ccatm=&restate=&restatus=&reoption=&retype=&repmin=&repmax=&rebed=&rebath=&subname=&pform=&sc=2350&hn=famagusta-gazette&he=.com



AJ

dutty


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 75

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 16:51

I am sure this will have been covered in the previous postings on this subject, but haven't got time to read them all







If the Oram's property is built on exchange land what are the legal implications for the people who now have built a property on the land in the south that has been exchanged for the Oram's land (does that make sense)

dutty


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 75

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 16:52

I am sure this has also been asked before







What are the implications for the GC gov in respect to Larnaca airport and why has a TC not started a court action on this?

dutty


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 75

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 16:54

In fact why has no TC started an action against a GC as surely the land in the south is worth more than the land in the north?



Or have they?

vincehugo


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 17:37

As I understand it, it is illegal, under TRNC law, to attempt to reclaim land in the South which you have signed over as part of an Es Deger agreement. Maybe this is why there is little action from TC's. If the Larnaca airport land was "exchanged" then the same would apply here.

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 18:36

Nice to see it back!



As always - you don't know what you've got till its gone



I prefered North Cyprus Free Press - couldn't look at that absurd reasoning on the 'otherside' forums!



Give Mal and co a look from time to time - it's worthwhile if only to see that the stereotypical GC propaganda is alive and well



http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com



My main point is this:



Okay, the Oramses have lost. The TRNC government has not done itself any favours by its lack of having a plan B. However, "POSSESSION IS AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN 9/10THS OF THE LAW".



Mr A has won his case - but I do not anticipate him coming to Lapta anytime soon to have a G&T (Gin and Tonic NOT Greeks and Turks) on 'his' land!



The eventual outcome will be a 'POLITICAL SOLUTION' - however, what struck me about the vaious GC responses was their total focus on 'land & property' and NOTHING about PEACE, SECURITY & RECONCILIATION!



I guess that will tell you all you need to know about GCs

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 18:37

If you are an EU citizen with property in the EU (whether expat or TC) you can take action now to protect your assets in the EU. A trust or some other form of disposal may help you.



If you are an EU citizen but with no assets in the EU - there is no reaon to worry at all - until a settlement is reached and the outcome is known.



Even take the case of Oramses. If they take reasonable steps to implement the judgement and the TRNC refuses to dmolish the villa or hand back the land to Mr A - & at the sametime offers Mr A a solution via the IPC - what will the UK courts do then?



Although we cannot say for certain - it is likely that having taken all reasonable steps to implement the judgement of the ROC courts - the UK courts will not hold the Oramses in 'contempt of court'.



In which case - what has the judgement achieved for Mr A? Some rent, damages, publicity but NOT "his" land.



POSSESSION IS AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN 9/10THS OF THE LAW!



The status quo will be kept

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 18:39

The main purpose of this action was threefold:



1. To put pressure on the TRNC at the negotiating table.



2. To weaken the already fragile TRNC economy by creating 'fear'.



3. To get publicity for the GC narrative on the Cyprus Prollem.



To a greater or lesser extent they will have succeeded on all three counts - BUT ONLY IN THE SHORT TERM!



In the medium to long term - they may well have scuppered any chance of peace and reconciliation for some years ahead and increased the likelihood of the TCs now wanting out of the settlement process.



As far as the prooperty market is concerned - in the short run there will be a negative impact. In the medium term the 'uncertainty and risk' will be factored in to the price and the market will return to some kind of equilibrium.



The TRNC can once the talks have failed - start to look at recognition from OIC (organisation of Islamic Countries) and already Syria and Qatar have indicated they would do this

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 18:40

The dust will settle and in time - a solution will emerge.



It should be expected that the GC will take more and more high profile cases to the courts - but each case has its own process and will take time and effort on the parts of the GC.



If they win these cases, the question of enforcement will be exactly as above i.e. Oramses. Unless the TRNC accepts these judgements it is unlikely that the GC will get any satisfaction.



Finally, this is a thought to ease some fears. It is not just expats who have been targeted but also TCs with property in the EU.



Some say that 80% of the land and property around Girne was or is GC land. Let's assume this is true. At present some 80% of people living in and around Girne are TCs - can you see the GCs pushing out tens of thousands of TCs whilst a line of GCs come from the south to occupy the land / property? Unlikely at best.



The solution will in the end be POLITICAL - based on peace, security & reconciliation



Enjoy

gates


Joined: 08/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 18:46

why from day one did they fight if they hadnt there would be no case and would not have gone this far if you get a letter throw it away we have been expecting lots of letters but they never got here dont get it in this island dont reply or you are your worst enamy as this case has shown

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 19:04

Gates:



They didn't contest the ROC case. They only did when Mr A won the judgement by default. If they didn't take t on from there the Judgement would have been taken to the UK irrespective for enforcement under the 2000 / 2001 RU Directives / Regulations regarding enforcement. This simply stipulates that judgements from Member states are enforceable and makes no mention of 'justice' or 'fairness' of the process in the court issuing the judgement.



The assumption is the High Court in the UK is equal to the High Court in Romania, Bulgaria, Germany, ROC etc.,



Enjoy

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 19:11

The further threat to sue holidaymakers staying in a former GC owned hotel (The Dome was quoted, along with the fact they have 60 names & addresses) or presumably built on GC land could cripple the tourist industry.



I'm dismayed that the TRNC Government whilst saying they will look after the Orams (and others who find themselves in the same situation), a replacement villa for the Orams was mentioned, ministers then say that they can't afford to pay the £1.5m legal costs. Rather a mixed message there. Hardly a 'Keep calm and carry on' message is it?

Moover321


Joined: 11/04/2009
Posts: 649

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 19:20

Hector:



I agree. The TRNC government has not done its people nor the ex-pat community any favours. I regret to say, I wouldn't hold my breadth for the TRNC government being 'proactive' in the current situation.



As far as the threat to 'tourists' staying at the Dome is concerned - I would suggest it is more rhetoric than fact.



Let's suppose they take this action - they will undoubtedly get a judgement in the ROC as a default judgement as it is unlikely that any tourists on their 'hit' list will appear.



What then? What will the penalty be? Let's say it is for trespass for a week's stay - a fine equal to a week's stay? And what will it cost the ROC and the alleged owners?



I would suggest outside of the legal costs it would also lead to adverse publicity for their actions as being petty and punitive.



The aim of this claim is to undermine the tourist industry such as is in the TRNC.



Enjoy

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
28/01/2010 19:29

"The aim of this claim is to undermine the tourist industry such as is in the TRNC."



Of course it is. How many people do you know who would pay good money to go on holiday, stay in a hotel and then face the possibility of being sued & all the aggravation that entails, when they got home? I wouldn't. There are too many other great places to go on holiday (plus possibly less aggro to fly to & arguably cheaper & with less litter) than North Cyprus. Who wants to be drawn into a political argument just by going on holiday? Not a receipe for a relaxing holiday. The mere threat of being sued in the air will probably be enough to do the damage.