How moral is your Disposal?

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 20:02

Reading that several Brits are panicking and selling up , presumably to the lowest bidder, I could not but help thing that:



a. Will they sell to fellow Brits to allow them the privilege of losing everything?

b. Are they bring the value of all the properties down?



There is one person who has been critical of the Orams (from time to time)who is now offering their wonderful villa in Lapta to some lucky soul as they are now going to France after sevenhappy years in 'paradise'. Willpeople such as they sell only to non Europeans?



What do others feel the right thing to do might be - or is it the survival of the fittest?

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 20:50

Stay calm and stay put would be my advice,

Paul.

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 22:58

I agree newlad . The only way is up

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:02

Anyone who thinks the Orams decision will bring about the total collapse of the housing market is being to hasty the old GC may have won the battle but he ain't won the war!!!! sit tight.............

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:09

I agree with you all, but I still question the morality of those who are panicking and selling up who are desperate to sell and think little of the potentialconsequences to the purchasers.



I am happy to ride the storm (if there is one!) as for me, this is my home and my life, but were I in the situation of having property assets in U.K, would I be tempted to get out? And if I did, would I care to whom I sold as long as I got some money and could run away? I can't answer that for myself, because I am not doing it. But would I be right?



I have to agree that justice will prevail - it seems to me that the Scales of Justice have slipped a bitg, and it is about time that the lady took off her blindfold, and re-adjusted the balances.

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:17

Marie B

Where is the morality in all this mess? does one fight fire with fire? Or do we sit back poor another glass of wine and live for today and each day there after. If it happens then it happens it could be worse we could of been one of those poor b*stards whose house came down on top of them in the recent earthquake. Sit tight and hope the grim reaper (GC) Don't come a knocking....................

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:25

I agree with you all, but I still question the morality of those who are panicking and selling up who are desperate to sell and think little of the potentialconsequences to the purchasers.



Marie. Anyone purchasing here now must surely be aware of the current state of play. Are you suggesting that anyone selling should in fact make the potential purchasers aware of the current issues?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:27

I agree with the recommendation to sit tight. Somethings got to give soon.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:32

To answer you, No.1 Doyen - I think anyone purchasing now is very aware of what is what here, and can make a positive choice to risk their money as the benefits of being here are important to them.

What I do question is the ones who are panicking and selling up so they cannot lose their assetts, and don't care to whom they sell.

I don't think I could sell to a European, and particularly to a Brit as my conscienc\e would not let me.

As I said at the outset, there is someone who was criticising the Orams on occasions on a web page, but who is now selling up his beautiful villa (and it IS beautiful) at a good bargain price, but they know it is on former Greek Cypriot land.

I am not here to judge, but I question whether it is moral to land someone else in the mire because of fear of oneself landing in the mire. 'Love your neighbour as yourself' ????

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:34

the other side read this forum , stay calm , why would you want to sell , remember this theyre economy is failling since they joined the euro , on the back of grece , turkeys economy is growing , sit tight and enjoy , KKTC will still be here long after most of us have departed to that big oasis in the sky .

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:36

Marie. Morally it is not acceptable to sell in the knowledge that you are not the rightful owner, knowing also that the rightful owner could come knocking on your door.

eager


Joined: 23/02/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:40

So then No 1 .... are you admitting that you are not the rightful owner ?

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:41

sorry no1 i had to do this , knock knock knocking on heavens door , guns and roses version .

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:42

I am probably being naive or stupid (or, indeed, both) here. Why have so many assumed that their properties are all built on land previously owned by GC's? Surely, some of us must have purchased land that, in fact, was owned by TC's? There must have been quite a few of us who went over and had a look at the RC forum whilst 44 was down? I must admit, I do it periodically. There are around 6 regular contributors on certain threads (in the main, the 'demise' of 44). Are any of you taking these morons seriously? They would have you believe that JCB's are rolling over the border to relieve all of us 'Carpetbaggers' of our properties. It smacks of "I'll meet you in the bike shed - mine's the one with the red saddle bag". Their comments are, at best, peurile, and basically, school playground stuff. The point is, the more certain members on here show a defeatist attitude, the more they love it. You only need to read a few messages to tell you what sort of mentality they possess.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:47

hi jeannie, IMHO ,you are neither , and when they try to bring the jcbs over i will stand arm in arm with you and we will send them back to where they belong .

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:47

I came here to live not make a profit, this should clear the woods for the trees.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:52

I remember being told that exchange land was fine, and even if a GC does come along and claim it, you'll only have to pay a small sum in compensation and to buy the land. What happened to that gem?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:54

Eager. If I were selling a property here I would sell via an agent. It's their problem to disclose any issues with prospective purchasers - not mine.

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
29/01/2010 23:57

rowlo - thank you very much for your support. I'll tell you what, if it ever happens (which it won't) I'll be more than happy to stand with you



I feel a bit of the old 'Dunkirk Spirit' coming on here - what about you? We've had our differences, but, when push comes to shove....................



Thanks again.



Jean

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 00:01

We need a 'Churchill'.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 00:05

'Exchange land'! Many people were told it was O.K. But now it seems that the Greeks are saying it is not, and yet they have Exchange land over there, and no one is screaming at them as being thieves etc.

Yes, many people have bought on former TC land, and also what is called 'English title' and not everyone is on former GC land, and I believe most were told it was 'Exchange Land' and would be no prob.

Something got lost along the way.

As to the question as to whether I am admitting something - Ihave not even said that I actually own anything, I am hypothesising on morality.

It is rather odd that a list of hotels was issued for information to German tourist companies, such list emanating from the south. The Germans are asked not to use hotels which are either formerly G.C owned such as The Dome, or even built on GC land (THE LIST DOES NOT SAY WHICH IS WHICH.

Onar Village is listed as G.C, but it was built in 1991 on exchange land, and the land is up a mountain. Reading the list o

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 00:09

.(I've done it agai....) Reading the list there is no mention of Exchange Land which was at one time accepted. So why has the definition and understanding suddenly changed. It is commonly understood that Exchange land was agreed on as perfectly valid for those who left the south to be given here and vice versa. Now certain people are saying it was theft!

And so to Doyen's question about being the rightful owner. Thousands of Brits thought they were, but now they are being told they are not. They bought in good faith, were given Title Deeds bya country THEY recognised. To them, they are the rightful owner, just as the Orams believed they were, b uying from a TC!!!!!!

So, guys, all sit tight and wait for a glorious tomorrow - for everyone whether north or south and believe that tgrue justice will prevail. Or is she just too blind for words.

Oleander


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 01:00

There are quite clear warnings about buying property built on 'exchange' land or whatever else the unrecognised TRNC authorities decided to call it, printed on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website and on many REPUTABLE estate agent websites.



It is said over and over that the only really SAFE title is PRE 1974 TURKISH TITLE. Just a quick look at how much more properties with safe title cost should tell anyone there is a DIFFERENCE!

Oleander


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 01:04

Here you go - a snippet from the F&C Office website re CYPRUS:



Property owners and potential purchasers should also consider that a future settlement of the Cyprus problem could have serious consequences for property they purchase (including the possible restitution of the property to its original owners). In particular, prospective purchasers should consider the implications of any future settlement on land / property:





* in the north that was Greek Cypriot owned

* that was subsequently classified as exchange land / property by the Turkish Cypriot "authorities".



The leaders of both communities started settlement negotiations in September 2008. Property issues forma key part of these negotiations. Until those negotiations are concluded and a comprehensive settlement agreed, the issues and risks identified above will continue to apply.



full details here:

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel-advice-by-country/country-profile/europe/cyprus/?prof

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 01:13

There is no such thing as EXCHANGE land or ESDEGER as it was known they changed the title, there is however now only one deed title it is TRNC Freehold this is to be shown on all new deeds issued I believe from May 2009 irrespective of what the old deed said.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 07:34

What is the point of selling, who is going to buy unless at a stupid price??



As for exchange land, when we bought 5 years ago we were given and read all the (now apparent) garbage by estate agents. They were the ones that promoted the safe fact in order to make mega bucks, which most have. We did a lot more digging and actually posed the question as to how safe and got the real answer. We bought as we felt it was still worth the price to live here.



We live here permanently, sold up completely in UK and we are going nowhere. THIS IS HOME!!!!!!

bazilbrush


Joined: 29/03/2008
Posts: 404

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 09:01

Of course there was a points system which became known as exchange land or property. The problem is that some were greedy and claimed in some instances far more points than they should of originally been given so the figures never tallied up at the end of the day. Some cypriots still have points they never used and now probably won't bother.

I think you are safe with your property if you have never been visited by a greek family saying they lived there before. Its only a minority that are seeking some form of compensation which is only fair if they were never given anything in return, but any monies should be paid by the trnc as they once said they were our guarantors if you remember. There was a time when we were also told that if we were ever sued by the greeks then we should then sue the trnc government for giving us a kocan(title deed). My how things change when it becomes a reality.............!!!!!!!!

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 09:20

In fairness to the couple who are selling up and moving to France they did have their house on the market well before the Orams decision was announced and in my opinion their morals should not be questioned on a public forum whether or not they criticised the Orams, not everyone agreed with the decision that Linda and David Oram made and that is everyones right.

I have no connection with these people but do feel that it is unfair to single them out in this way, there are plenty of people who are trying to sell their property for a variety of reasons and if they are fortunate enough to find a buyer I'm sure they will accept any reasonable offers, the onus is surely on the buyer to find out the facts for themselves, as we all did before buying here.

I have no assets in the UK and have no intention of moving anywhere, we need to keep a grip on reality here and stop panicking, that is my choice and others are entitled to stay or go as they see fit without being pilloried for that.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 09:36

RE msg 1, MarieB: (...) There is one person who has been critical of the Orams (from time to time)who is now offering their wonderful villa in Lapta to some lucky soul as they are now going to France after sevenhappy years in 'paradise'. (...)

=> Marion, I think I know who you are talking about: Frank and Joan Gillins. Am I right? Why not name them? OK, name them but also tell the complete truth: Frank and Joan's villa has been for sale for years now and NOT just after "the verdict". Your suggestion is not fair - unless we are talking about a different person?

dalartokat


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 734

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 10:41

Just got to the bottom of reading this thread and was intending to comment. Totally agree with DutchCrusader and Hattikins. Frank and Joan have always been clear as to why they were selling up and its there for all to read that it was for health reasons, certainly nothing to do with the Orams...........and if it was....................................?? Green eyed monster looming somewhere in first posting.

parkview



Joined: 12/03/2009
Posts: 1123

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 10:54

I think many of us brought here not to make profit but for a better way of life, I have lived here for 15 years and intend to do so for quite some time. I think people are having a knee jerk reaction about the orams so if nothing else the GC's are winning just by the threat of what they may or may not do. Do not panic! if so they have won. I personally am more concerned with people not getting there deeds due to mortgages on their land as we have, this is a bigger problem. But still I sit here and love the country and every so often read UK papers and realise my whole reason for being here. This island will have a solution one way or another, personally I never wanted it to become part of EU. Much better to become a state of Turkey and I think this is the way it will go. I am sure that is why so many Mainlanders are starting to settle here, are the GC's going to evict them, I don't think so.

jacktheladett


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 528

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 11:01

Is crux of the matter is 'choice'.



If there are reasons why you have to leave, (work, family etc) then you have no choice, so whether it's morally right or not, probably makes no difference.

There really can't be anyone left that doesn't know the 'situation,' and seeing as property was cheap enough before, if I was buying from someone willing to take another £50K drop, I would certainly be asking questions!

vincehugo


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 11:14

Saint, Re Msg 25,

Sorry but there definitely is such a thing as an Es Deger deed ie. there are deeds with Es Deger written on them. And the title Es Deger does relate to an Exchange. However the exchange of deeds was not, as some people were led to believe, an exchange agreed between a TC and GC but rather an exchange agreed between a TC and the TRNC Government.

Vince

Oleander


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 11:37

Yes vince - you said it. This 'esdeger' stuff is an invention of the TRNC and only recognised by them.



As for "There really can't be anyone left that doesn't know the 'situation,' and seeing as property was cheap enough before, if I was buying from someone willing to take another £50K drop, I would certainly be asking questions!"



Anywhere other than in the TRNC it seems, so would any prospective purchaser be asking questions about the low cost of housing purchase there (especially off plan and especially any 'title' compared with 'pre 74 Turkish Title'. Even before any further reductions in price.

Oleander


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 11:39

They would be alerted by the striking difference in price between a house just S of the Green Line and one a few kilometres away on the other side of it. In the same way that they would be if they were viewing property in the UK and saw vast differences in price in the same region. The first thing they'd think was that there 'must be some problem or something wrong' with the much cheaper property.



Alas it must either be true that Brits buying in TRNC 'leave their brains on the plane' and believe any old rubbish estate agents or developers hand out to them (two highly untrusted professions in the UK), or true that they know EXACTLY why it is so cheap and are prepared to take a chance and go ahead anyway. The Orams themselves (and others) have said as much. They took a chance.



If you gamble, you must be prepared to lose.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 11:48

Oleander from Larnaca, there's a fine, South based Bulletin Board where the input of British people like you is most welcome. If you didn't buy here, why don't you stay there - physically and in your thoughts. It's my pleasure to point you in the right direction: http://www.cyprus-forum.com/

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 12:36

Oleander. I doubt there is much difference in the potential lose between an expat buying in the South, with the drastic price slump and 100,000 missing deeds. I understand that many are desperate to get out. Some are even coming to buy over here.

bazilbrush


Joined: 29/03/2008
Posts: 404

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 14:31

Have the orams lost, I have not seen any handover of deeds or cash to date have you. Greeks just want to ruin the infustructure in the north, there not really about property issues, they still want to persecute their fellow cypriots so nothing has changed really over the years.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 14:50

Property owners and potential purchasers should also consider that a future settlement of the Cyprus problem could have serious consequences for property they purchase (including the possible restitution of the property to its original owners). In particular, prospective purchasers should consider the implications of any future settlement on land / property:



The Key words here are a future settlement of the Cyprus problem. When and if, there will be a political solution, which wil include fair compensation. This court-grabing feasco only make a solution more impossible. But then the GC's know this.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 16:00

Interesting comments above, but one in particular that interests me. I know that of recent times there have been warnings by the FoC re purchasing in the north, but as one person said, they believed what the Estate Agents said. But when DID the Foreign office actually start warning peole about the risks inpurchasing in the north. During the past five years or earlier?



I seem to think (and I could be wrong - I often am) that 10 years ago or more, no warnings were issued and the few Brits/Europeans that were coming here to buy believed what the Estate Agents said - why should they not. The reason prices were lower was because of where the property was.



So does anyone know the EXACT date when people were warned.



Final comment is that there are still people who feel this is a far less dangerous place to live than U.K and that is why they are coming!

Dawnie1


Joined: 27/09/2008
Posts: 217

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 17:37

Marion when we bought there was no Foreign Office warnings & that was in 2002.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 18:37

Thanks Dawnie, that is what I thought, too.l Anyone buying around that time and indeed around the Annan Plan time received no warnings, only encouragements, and it is these people who may be feeling a bit let down by developments.

Also anyone who has had their home up for sale for a while (whatever the title) have only been faced with an unexpected nasty now, because of the fright that has been caused by the CVourts ruling over the Orams.

And one of my questions really is whether it is moral to proceed on the same lines, knowing that SHOULD you have property on 'dodgy' land, is it right to sell to another European who could possibly be faced with an Orams case.

It is so difficult to know whether self-preservation and survival is uppermost, or whether one should stand by and see the least amount of harm done to others.

Hence my question in the first place.

As to Hans quesiton as to whom I am referring, I would NEVER mention names, that ain't fair! With the number of people who re

Oleander


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 22:46

Yes Troodo - I know people who have properties both North and South and also people who opted for TRNC residency and then changed to RoC residency.



Dutch Crusader - at one time, due to your attitude I mistakenly thought you were the site owner of CYPRUS44. Who are you to tell me or anyone else where to post? I see no requirement on this forum that you have to be a property OWNER in the TRNC to be able to post here?



There are some message boards that do require you to be the owner on certain developments to join up. I belonged to one when I lived on Hilltop for a while.

Oleander


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 22:48

DC - I suggest you read the Home page of this website.



The North Cyprus Guide



Northern Cyprus Holidays



All you need to know



etc.



How I found this site in the first place. I have taken more than 20 N. Cyprus Holidays of varying lengths and travelled to every inch of it that I am allowed to go to.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
30/01/2010 23:02

RWE msg 43, Oleander from LARNACA: (...) Dutch Crusader - at one time, due to your attitude I mistakenly thought you were the site owner of CYPRUS44. Who are you to tell me or anyone else where to post? I see no requirement on this forum that you have to be a property OWNER in the TRNC to be able to post here? (...)

=> Whatever you say or think. I spoke and speak for myself and tell you that I don't need another (British) fifth columnist from the South on this board. We in the North understand what's going on and we certainly don't need "I told you so lessons" from renegade Brits in the South, unashamed to celebrate the Pyrrus victory in the Orams (your fellow Brits!) case. Long live TRNC.

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
31/01/2010 09:32

Hey Oleander,



I guess you know that an oleander is described as "attractive flowers concealing a seriously poisonous bush"...



I don't mind you posting on this board, as long as you don't mind me replying.



The fact that "I have taken more than 20 N. Cyprus Holidays of varying lengths and travelled to every inch of it that I am allowed to go to." is supposed to demonstrate what, exactly?

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
31/01/2010 11:44

Come on guys, don'[t ';house sling' from south to north. Both sides have their problems in terms of property purchase and mainly Brits (although other nationals are involved).

Oleander is a much loved flower and so are roses and they can scratch awfully, so perhaps the Greek Oleanders and the English roses can respect each other without poisoning or scratching.

Bella domenica

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
31/01/2010 19:30

Oleander.... It makes complete sense that if you have the massive population movement that was experienced here North-South-North, that the land required to live and exist on is exchanged. It's an asset that is required for existence. This causes as much "angst" in the North as in the South where previous Turkish Cypriot owned land is given away or used by their administration. The Oram's type case may well be a double edged sword !



DutchCrusader....You don't miss a chance to knock the British do you ? Your racist attitude does you no favours. And Oleander has as much right as you to post here as long as he keeps within the rules. Other's opinions are just as valid as yours.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/01/2010 19:48

RE msg 48, Geejay: (...) DutchCrusader....You don't miss a chance to knock the British do you ? (...)

=> I heard this several times before and replied, but I'll do it again, because it's nonsense. I oppose anyone who talks the TRNC down, whether they are British or any other nationality. In the past weeks I strongly opposed certain British people, mainly living in the South, who even dared celebrate the misfortune of the Orams couple. British people against fellow Brits! Or rubbed it in with useless "I told you so" posts. And I can't help it that it's British people who did and do it. You call that racist attitude?! You'd better wake up and target your anger at the culprits - not at the messenger. I'm not against opinions - I'm against low level perverse delight.

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
31/01/2010 20:21

DC...... If you've heard it before (your anti-British attitude) then it's probably true. I suggest you apply some introspection (soul searching) on this. But then of course, one isn't the best person to know oneself is one ?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/01/2010 20:34

RE msg 50, Geejay: Whatever you say, Sir. I've nothing to add to my post number 49.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
31/01/2010 22:35

"RE msg 50, Geejay: Whatever you say, Sir. I've nothing to add to my post number 49. "



Oh, good.