More trouble ahead for the Greeks

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 10:26

Angela Merkel dashes Greek hopes of rescue bid.

German chancellor refuses to rescue Greece's ailing economy amid Berlin's domestic austerity. Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, mounted stiff resistance tonight to any swift bailout of Greece, as a rift opened up between European capitals over how best to tackle the risks posed to the euro.

Despite a show of Franco-German unity on the crisis and the first statement from EU leaders pledging to safeguard the currency's stability, hopes on the markets of a German-led rescue plan to shore up Greece's critical public finances were dashed by Merkel, who repeatedly emphasised that Athens would need to put its own house in order and brushed aside all questions of financial support.

"Germany is stepping totally on the brakes on financial assistance," said a senior EU diplomat. "On legal grounds, on constitutional grounds and on principle." Another senior diplomat said of the Germans: "They're not waving their chequebooks."

http://www.guard

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 10:28

Merkel and Sarkozy held a joint press conference after the summit to demonstrate Franco-German unity, but that masked fundamental differences over how to proceed.



"France and Germany cannot agree on anything," said a Brussels official. "They are not always on the same page."



Berlin and Paris have been at odds for the last week through several rounds of negotiations, with the French, backed by the Spanish, seeking a solution through lending to Greece. But Germany and the European Central Bank (ECB) took a hard line, arguing that the bigger risk to the euro's stability came from bailing out a profligate member state which has notched up a budget deficit of almost 13% and a national debt of nearly €300bn.

The split meant 16 finance ministers could not agree a common position before the summit. "Germany cannot justify its taxpayers having to finance the lovely lives of the Greeks," said a senior diplomat.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 10:30

Rather than bailing out Athens, Berlin is insisting on rigorous policing of the Greek austerity programme by a triple force from the commission, the ECB and the International Monetary Fund, an exercise never attempted in the eurozone.

Berlin also argues it has scant scope for manoeuvre legally as the German constitutional court would be likely to rule, under the terms of the Maastricht Treaty setting up the single currency, that Germany cannot come to the bilateral aid of a single currency country in trouble

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 10:34

What a German Newspaper said....



"Greece ... has no excuses. This country has benefited widely from European largesse since it joined in 1981. It fiddled its accounts to be let into the euro in 2001. It took advantage of general indifference to carry on cheating. The time has come to pay the bill. It is not acceptable that a country representing just 3% of the 27's gross product lead Europe into the abyss. Automatic solidarity is out of the question ... That said, only aid subject to the strictest of conditions can save Greece from itself, preserve the eurozone and stop the rot before it spreads"

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 11:16

The Euro federalists are - of course - pointing out that with only Monetary union - without political / fiscal union - this was 'bound' to happen !

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 11:27

Whereas the Germans – and the French – were traditionally allowed to break the EU's budget deficit rules with virtual immunity, Greece won't, and monitoring of its performance will be primarily be conducted by the EU's biggest country and economy, with a little help from the IMF in Washington. This reinforces the tendency for Berlin, sometimes with Paris, sometimes without it, to dictate the pace of eurozone development and that of the EU as a whole. And this is despite the fears voiced by one commentator in last week's Economist that, "If Germany steps in, there will be people on the Athens street who will say the Wehrmacht is back."



The outcome also reinforces the tendency for the UK to play an outsider role not only because it isn't a member of the eurozone but because it chooses to remain aloof.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 11:30

Dutch government yesterday: "Not one penny for Greece - until they have the house in order. And no subsidies - maybe just loans that have to be paid back".

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 11:35

I think this is the way forward Hans. Give them loans - with restrictions/sanctions.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 11:38

Msg 6. The outcome also reinforces the tendency for the UK to play an outsider role not only because it isn't a member of the eurozone but because it chooses to remain aloof.

And with bloody good reason it seems, so Britain's money men were exactly right when they gave their reasons for not wanting the Euro.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 11:40

Time to place embargoes on them until they pay up which would be never,

Paul.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 11:50

The Wall Street Journal, dated July 16, 2009 "Higher Greek Taxes Face Public Ire and Rampant Evasion", notes that:

1) The Greek government estimates the "shadow", or untaxed economy, is about 30% of the declared economy, among the largest black markets in the 16-member euro zone.

2) Greece, a country of 11 million people - only 3,125 people declared incomes of more than $280,000.

3) Greece's tax revenue is among the lowest in the European Union, 19.8% of GDP compared to an E.U. average of 26.1%. -- Italy's take is 29.1%, Portugal's 24.5%, Spain's 20.7%. Only a handful of E.U. countries: the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Romania do worse. And none of them use the euro.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 11:51

tattlad. message 9. I agree. I'm glad we never went in.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 11:55

France and Switzerland have more exposure to Greek debt than any other countries in the world, and more than twice as much as Germany – perhaps adding fuel to the hesitance of the Germans to help bail out the troubled country.



France and Switzerland have $79bn (£50bn) each of exposure to Greece, according to American-sourced data from the Bank for International Settlements analysed by the Swiss bank UBS. Germany's exposure is $43bn

spondoolics


Joined: 13/06/2009
Posts: 73

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 12:02

This is a purely clever ploy by the Federalists, including UK to show that problems occur if still seperated outside a fully United States of Europe. And Turkey want to join this lot - must be mad.

LOvegod


Joined: 22/03/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 13:11

I dont think Turkey is daft enough to join this bunch of euro losers. Thank God we are not in it despite our 3 main parties trying to drag us in by stealth.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 14:10

No1Doyen.



What specifically is the benifit at the present moment of Britain being out.

When the UK currency has gained the 25% against the Euro,that it lost by staying out, then perhaps we can cheer.



You say that we are better off out with your statement" France and Switzerland have more exposure to Greek debt than any other countries in the world"

Switzerland is NOT in the Euro.!

A sixth of our GDP is invested with PIGS only 3% less than Germany who is in the Euro .We should stop talking about the Euro or sterling .Its the economy of Europe that is at risk ,and like it or not we are part of Europe.

Quite frankly if the s--t hits the fan and more people are laid off and more pension funds collapse,its only the most patriotic of us that will get any satisfaction from having the Queens head on our reduced pension pot or dole money ,instead of the Euro.

Brits constantly wanting the EU to fail must be getting tiresome for rest of Europe.Beware a backlash when patience runs out

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 15:06

Girne. The main argument in favour of joining is to gain currency stability. However the pound is the world's fourth most important reserve currency and is stronger than the euro.

Were Britain in the euro, it would have to accept a one-size-fits-all monetary policy. UK interest rates have been slashed to fight recession. By contrast, the ECB continues to cut eurozone rates very slowly.



I never said that I wanted the EU to fail neither that we were better off out.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 16:53

UK had to sacrifice her interersts in the Commonwealth and especially sacrificed Australia and New Zealand. Furthermore had to accept to subsidize the inefficient French agriculture. If Eurozone fails, the writing will be on the wall for EU to fail and they may be back to the core of six but without Italy this time.

ismet

trnc55


Joined: 28/11/2009
Posts: 14

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 17:02

It is a shame turkey did not offer to help out with strings of course

TheScarlets



Joined: 14/04/2009
Posts: 877

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 17:20

Lets put sanctions on the Greeks, it shows how efficient the EU are by accepting the lies of the Greeks without any form financial inspection and allowing them into the EU



I hope they suffer and also those south of our border



Makes me proud to be part of TRNC

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 18:45

Well done to Tony Blair,Gordon Brown and John Prescott for hanging on to the pound.TAKE COVER!!!!!!!!!

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 19:03

spondoolics Msg 14.

I think you'll find Turkey are not bothered one way or another about joining the EU, it's America that want them in there, Oh and the EU of course so they can run a pipeline through it instead of being held to ransom by Russia.

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 21:18

Paul. Today's paper. Lord Mandleson last night called for Britain to adopt the euro despite the financial chaos gripping Europe. "I think in the longer term it would be in Britain's interests to be part of the euro zone" he described the euro as a "remarkable success". Tory euro-sceptic said "he has clearly been spending too much time in the Greek sun".

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 21:35

Not much sun in Greece at the moment.Plenty of storm clouds though,

Paul.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 21:36

if i,m not mistaken ,they will review the situation again in march ,could be to late .



the larger the eu becomes ,the harder it becomes to run efficiently .





musin



long live the kktc

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
12/02/2010 22:20

Musin

How are you doing?



' the larger the eu becomes ,the harder it becomes to run efficiently .'



Efficiency and the EU have never been bedmates. How the EU can castigate Greece when they cannot get their own books in order beggars belief.



The EU is in disarray both financially and morally.



It is going to take some drastic measures to pull the whole thing back into shape again and as a result it is going to be a very bumpy ride for EU member states.



AJ