Federalism and the Cyprus Peace Talks

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
13/02/2010 18:20

I attended a conference last night in Famagusta given in English and Turkish with simultaneous translation. The speakers were Dr. Reinold Herber from “Forum of Federations” in Canada and Dr. Tufan Erhürman, a lecturer at EMU in Law and also a legal adviser to President Talat.

Basically, with federations the Federal Government has a say in matters specified in the Constitution and the rest belongs to the constituent States. As far as the outside world is concerned it is a single entity. there are 24 or 25 Federations in the world and the same number of different systems i.e. each federation is unique. The Confederations are made up of completely independent States and the Confederal Government has powers in matters agreed between the States.

So in the case of Cyprus, both sides had agreed many years ago that the solution will be on the lines of a Federal Government, bi-communal and bi-zonal.

ctd.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
13/02/2010 18:21

However neither side really accepted this and GCs tried to make it as unitary as possible and the TCs tried to make it as near to Confederation as possible. Hence they talked and talked for years without getting anywhere.

When Christofias and Talat came to power at the same time, they agreed to talk on these principles in earnest and the current talks began. Talat conceded that there will be a single idendity, a single Foreign Minister and so on, i.e. accepted the norms of a Federal Government. Then it was the turn of Christofias to concede and there was progress on many matters.

At Federal level there will be two houses. At the lower house I think the representation will be in accordance with the population but at the higher house, the Senate, the representation will be equal. At the Senate, decisions will be taken by a qualified majority i.e. at least a quarter of the senators from the other side must vote with the majority.

ctd.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
13/02/2010 18:22

Decisions in the lower house will be by a qualified majority too and at least 25 or 30% of the other side must agree. This percentage is under discussion but not much difference on this point.



There is no agreement on the question of guarantees. However, the current guarantees are based on international treaties and it is really up to the Guarantor Powers UK, Greece and Turkey to agree on this point. This looks simple enough once the other matters are resolved.



The question of property seems to be the hardest to solve. Christofias insists that the original owner must have the final say and is trying to hide behind the decisions of ECHR and the ECJ. Reading between the lines, it seems that the way forward will be like this: Some GCs will get their land back but if anything is built on it he will be compensated much like in the Anna Plan. Probably the owners of the houses will have to contribute towards the compensation.

ctd.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
13/02/2010 18:23

Of course in this event the value of the houses will shoot up, so it will be a win-win situation. My personal view is that uncle Sam will get a military base in Karpas and will help financially to smooth the way to a settlement.



So the Property issue is a difficult one but it can be overcome. We will see.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
13/02/2010 18:34

Oh the funniest anecdote was the negotiations about Flight Information Region, known as "FIR". The Turkish side wanted to have two FIRs, one on each side and Christofias rejected this adamantly. Eventually it dawned on them that Christofias was objecting because he thought that FIR was a measure of sovereignty over the air. Indeed I thought the same thing but apparently it has nothing to do with sovereignty. FIR lines normally follow the busiest routes in the air. One such line begins in England and goes as far as the middle of France. Eery time a plane passes overhead, the pilot gets directions from the control centre and whoever is controlling that line automatically earns some money. TRNC has invested a good deal of money in technical equipment and wants to use them as a good money earner. Once it was understood properly, Christofias withrew his objection on the matter. So as the saying goes, "Parties have to agree before hey disagree" i.e. you have to agree on what you are talking about before you can disagree on the issue.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
13/02/2010 18:37

I thought I saw a comment by AJ on the property issue and its gone, did I really see it?

ismet

Marvo


Joined: 30/04/2007
Posts: 194

Message Posted:
13/02/2010 18:42

That sounds reasonable Ismet, but in reality if you are sitting without your PTP and your builder hasn't finished the development, are going to contribute to any financial settlement ?.



Only if you can be guaranteed you will get your title deeds are you going to compensate anyone.



If this government is as short of cash as it makes out, surely it must realize that if it extracted the digit regarding PTP then there must be millions in purchase tax just waiting to be paid.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
14/02/2010 23:05

I can't, for the life of me, understand why the government don't simply capitulate and scrap this nonsensical PTP and rake the millions due into their coffers .



Of course, they would have to chivvy up the builders to release a sh1tload of title deeds, but if nepotism currently precludes this course of action, surely they could come to some agreement, like covertly sharing the proceeds.



They know that TRNC 'Title Deeds' aren't Internationally recognised, therefore worthless, but most of the Brits 'whoop' with joy and break out the Champagne when they get their worthless piece of bumph - rather like investing in 'junk bonds'.



But......whatever makes people happy, I guess!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
15/02/2010 13:38

Good post, Ismet !



Annan never really went away ;)

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
15/02/2010 14:33

"As far as the outside world is concerned it is a single entity. there are 24 or 25 Federations in the world and the same number of different systems i.e. each federation is unique. The Confederations are made up of completely independent States and the Confederal Government has powers in matters agreed between the States."

Ismet

Of those 24/5 Federal countries how many have been divided as Cyprus has by religious and civil strife

Or are they all USA/ Canadian type new world countries ?

Yugoslavia had an Orthodox Muslim split and was former Otterman Empire

The Czech and Slovaks divorced their republic very amicably

The dream of a united Cyprus in nice but were there always two countries on the island

paul90


Joined: 07/11/2007
Posts: 350

Message Posted:
15/02/2010 15:28

Ismet - ref message 4 " My personal view is that uncle Sam will get a military base in Karpas and will help financially to smooth the way to a settlement."



Was any mention made of another sticking point in these negotiations - the presence of Turkish troops on the island and whether or not they might stay?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
15/02/2010 15:44

re msg 10 >>... were there always two countries on the island<<



??



Who taught you history ? ;)

jay76


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 532

Message Posted:
15/02/2010 16:08

The mess has got to messy.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
15/02/2010 20:17

Msg İsmet

İsmet thank you for your post it was very informative. However the tone of your post seems to be one of a done deal. So the only thing you failed to mention is the date for the..big picnic that we are all going to be having. Your post seems optimistic that a negotiated settlement will be reached along federal or even confederel lines. These scholars can be as scholified as they like and know all the differing types of federal or confederal models that exsist. But it is not them that are going to have to coexsist on a daily basis in government and on the street. This is a crucial time now for negotiations İn terms of make or break. How they expect to resolve issues with 4 more meetings prior to the presidential election you should tell me because.. I am at a loss. We were told break throughs had been made where are they? And to touch on a point regarding property that you mention.



Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
15/02/2010 20:19

Con..

What happens to people who cannot afford to pay towards compensation who have families and are fearful of debt? Will they be evicted on to the street?

With the backdrop of the forthcoming elections which you know it is widely expected Eroglu will be elected and you must know as a T/C he will accept absolutely nothing that has been agreed to. You should not forget there was a reason T/C voted 'hardline nationalists', at the general elections and that was not only economics it was also that not everybody desires reunification. Many do not trust the EU anymore and many do not care about this sense of urgency on both sides.

People say Turkey will instruct Eroglu on what is agreeable if he wins... this is true. But Turkey will not automatically ignor the opinions of the people of the TRNC which is fast becoming anti reunification and Europe.



Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
15/02/2010 20:21

Con..

Obviously it is Turkey with the last say but at present you can see many statements from so many politicians in Turkey that openly support us here in the TRNC. And as a result of the EU recent report it has now become all the more apparent that Erdogan is angst that accession for Turkey is being thwarted and is quoted as saying ‘’İt includes baseless and unacceptable elements’’. As I have said before it is also and,, I do not accuse you ... acceptable to portray those opposing these negotiations along these lines to be made out to be fighting democracy there are allternatives. Political theological dreamers who believe that ethnic and historical cultural divdes can be cemented together with a federal plaster while wielding power for their own circle is undemocartic.



Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
15/02/2010 20:22

Con...

I long for an agreement but true democracy is the will and desire of the majority of the people and not the desire of the few with the same political aspirations to succeed for their own political and personal goals. İf we ever get to a stage of completed negotiations only a referendum.. will be the defining moment.



Winslow.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
15/02/2010 21:09

Let me make it absolutely clear that there is no movement on the property issue and it will be left to the end.It is only my expectation that if there is an agreement at all, it will have to be very much in line with Annan but it is already agreed that this five letter word cannot be used during the negotiations. They pretend that it does not exist.

ismet

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
15/02/2010 22:59

ismet abi ,sorry ,but i have too agree with winslow on this one,we were very quick too give away far too much

in the annan plan and the gc,s still said no ,so there,s your answer .....no change .



i do know one thing the tc,s will not give away so much ever again.



so on that basis alone ,i cannot see a settlement, whatever the politicians tell us.



musin



long live the kktc

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
15/02/2010 23:32

Hey Ismet !



we should introduce Musim to Ersi [ a GC lady on a long running cross community site ] .. they both seem to think that their respective leaders have 'given too much'

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
16/02/2010 00:07

Hey Mark !



Are you the new peacemaker?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2010 00:30

Hi Yorg!



I've been a Annan 'fan' all these years.. noughts changed ..

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
16/02/2010 10:23

mark





i suggest you introduce yourself yo reality ,it may help you.



musin



LONG LIVE THE KKTC

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
16/02/2010 10:31

Mark;

"peacemaker" and "Annan fan" are two different things.Cyprus problem could only be sorted out by the Cypriots.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
16/02/2010 11:43

My opinon..

When on Febuary 11 the General Assembly of the European Parliament approved the report it claimed to have based it on an evaluation of political and legal reforms in Turkey and also primarly about the Cyprus issue. The report raised eyebrows in Turkey to say the least across all political divides and strong reactions at national and international levels. The main points were that Turkey withdraw its troops immediately address the issue of the settlers and to deal with the issue of property under European rulings. İt made no mention of how the EU could add to the process and assit in formulating a solution.



İn my mind this was a unilateral declaration. Wereby we should of had a more multılateral understanding. This declaration does not recognise the social and political implications. İt came at a crucial time while the negotiations continue in terms of a solution of the problem.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
16/02/2010 11:45

Con..

The European Union had an oppotunity to approach the problem realistically with perhaps suggestions on how the Island could be unified if it truly belived that it wanted a unified Island within the EU by understanding both parties fustrations.



This declaration by the EU is grossly bias. The reports was much more critical than in the past with its language harsher undertone. This is unacceptable to Turkey and the TRNC. The report will only make the compromise on a solution all the more difficult as both parties will draw the negative and positives in terms of their own prospectives the TRNC the negatives. The Roc will benchmark this decision and others justifying their negotiating postion along these lines. It is important not to forget this report is as a result of the attachment of The ROC to the EU and its voice in the decision making process within the institution of the EU.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
16/02/2010 11:46

Con...

Turkey believes that some member states and their institutions are using the Cyprus issue to enhance their own national interests rather than assisting in accession and negotaitons.



The international community are aware that the Turkish side said ‘yes’ to the Annan Plan but this has been ignored by the European Union. The EU, Greece and South Cyprus are sadly mistaken if they believe they will reach a solution by forcing Turkey with this declaration. The unfilled commitments of the EU and its attitudes put the EU in some circles in a compromising position regarding it role on the international stage. The EU’s aim to position its self as a leader can only be effective if it assist and facilitates solutions rather than blocking them to the detrament of non EU members.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
16/02/2010 11:47

Con..

If the members of the EU want Turkey in the Union and a cypus solution they should end their opposition and behave according to international law. Turkey will not bow and make any more concessions regarding Cyprus without the fulfillment of commitments that have been promised in the past. Turkey and the TRNC will not accept the allegation that it has not attempted to resolve the problems of Cyprus.

Any further steps by the EU without its promised commitments I now believe behind the scences will only serve to push the negotiation to breaking point and perhaps over the edge.

Winslow.