Turk/Greek conflict, '74

Chris


Joined: 26/03/2008
Posts: 454

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 00:25

If a country takes a country in times of conflict ( as in 74 ) why does the victor now have to compensate for Greeks that were escorted from the north?



Because in '74, it was tit for tat killings on both sides, and the Turkish govt, decided that enough was enough and sent its troops in to protect its people, which is exactly what the British did in Northern Island .



People did own property in that area, but it was an army that came in, approved by the Turkish govt, to protect its people.



So why are the Turkish Cypriots having to compensate to the Greek Cypriots what was taken from them in time of conflict?

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 00:44

Putting any blame aside, because all this does is stop all constructive dialogue, all TC and GC need to be compensated for the homes/land/business they lost. Governments make wars and their political decisions lead to the misery that ordinary everyday people have to live with. If you fled your home (for what ever reason) and someone simply moved into it, would you see it as theirs or yours? Who do you think should be the legal owner?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 00:47

Chris,

Even at times of war when one country invades, conquers, intervenes, they may take over the running of that country but they may not take over their property en masse. Hence all the ECHR rulings against Turkey. Of course one hundred yers ago or more, when a king conquered a piece of land he became the sole owner and he distributed it amongst his warlords. Now we have a different set of rules but it is still in the making.

ismet

Chris


Joined: 26/03/2008
Posts: 454

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 01:12

In reality to what happened, nobody took the property en masse, the buildings through the borders are still there, its proving who owned the land in the north, but the armed forces took the north because of the serious problems due to the civilian population continually fighting, so why should compensation be given to anybody as in reality Turkey was only protecting its people.



(John, Chris's partner)

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 07:09

Chris,

Under international law they have a right to keep their property and they do not have to ac cept compensation either. ECHR have granted compensation to them only for the lack of use so far. The Turkish side have muddled it up becaue of their disrespect for international law. Being in the right is not enough. You have to play it right too. The adviser to Denktash at the time was prof. Soysal, a constitutional law professor!!! He was saying that everything will be forgotten in 50 years time. He was not pleased at all when I challenged this at a confernce he was giving at EMU many years ago.

ismet

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 12:38

Hi Ismet.

The problem with international law is that the UN and other world powers use it when it suits them and ignore it when it does not. Unfortunately, they deem to ignore it too often when it comes to Turkey or the TRNC, hence their acceptance that the illegal government in the south – The self-styled Republic of Cyprus – is the sole legal government of Cyprus.

They forfeited that position in 1963.



Troodo.

Happy to live in the safe area.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 12:39

Hi Ismet.

The problem with international law is that the UN and other world powers use it when it suits them and ignore it when it does not. Unfortunately, they deem to ignore it to often when it comes to Turkey or the TRNC, hence their acceptance that the illegal government in the south – The self-styled Republic of Cyprus – is the sole legal government of Cyprus.

They forfeited that position in 1963.



Troodo.

Happy to live in the safe area.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 12:59

Troodo,

I hope I am not seeing double!!! I agree wtih you that in international politics there are always double standards. However two wrongs don't make a right in my book.

ismet

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 13:02

John and Chris,



There are several good books which can give you a better understanding of the historical framework if the Cyprus conflict, as well as the cause, purpose and effect of the Turkish invasion.



To say:



"but the armed forces took the north because of the serious problems due to the civilian population continually fighting, so why should compensation be given to anybody as in reality Turkey was only protecting its people."



is gross simplification and inaccurate. Turkey had a plan for partitioning Cyprus way back in the 1950s - years before the serious intercommunal fighting of 1963-64 and 1974. The Greek coup of July 15 1974 provided the perfect pretext to invade and partition by invoking the Treaty of Guarantee.



Why should compensation be paid? Because a sovereign country was attacked by a foreign state which went on to seize a third of the island, expelling the population and stealing their properties. Of course, war crimes like ethnic cleansing has meant cheap holiday homes for some that most decent people wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 13:55

PtePike.



Re your comment "decent people wouldn't touch it with a bargepole" may well be your view.

We came on holiday to enjoy "the jewel of the Medoterranean." We saw the property for sale just as one does, when in Spain, Florida Majorca and etc .Within the week( and somewhat foolishly you may argue) we had agreed to buy. Our decision was not a political one. We had not had the benefit of reading books for years on The Cyprus conflict or Turkish or Greek politics.



When people buy a holiday home in Florida do they read up the history of native Americans first? Incas, Mayans? The maoris in Australia.



Throughout history property seisure has been one of the spoils of war. Invariably compromise is reached , or some form of recompence is made by the disputing Governments. Land swap compensation etc, I have no doubt that will be the case with Cyprus, no doubt with the help and blessing of the EEC.



What I OBJECT TO is your postings accusing people of moral corruption in buying holiday homes. In most cases this is not as a result of a deliberate intent to deprive, but as a result of accepting the assurrances of Advocates and Estate Agents, who act with the full support of the Governments of the day.



WE WERE TOLD THAT IT WAS EXCHANGE LAND OR LAND ON WHICH COMPENSATION HAD OR WOULD BE PAID BY THE TRNC GOVERNMENT.



You are of course entitled to your views, but I would be most grateful if you would refrain

from calling me and many more like minded thouroughly decent people, "MORALLY

CORRUPT, when all we seek to do is act within the Laws of the Country, and with good

faith to the peoples therin. WE HAVE PAID A FAIR PRICE PLUS ALL ASSOCIATED TAXES AND DUTIES ON OUR VILLA, ALL UNDER INSTRUCTION OF OUR ADVOCATE, AND WITHIN THE LAWS OF THE TRNC.



I am not a political animal seeking to claim the moral high ground, because I had the time and interest to make The Cyprus Problem my pet subject. Just a normal decent people

going about our business within the laws of the land.



PERHAPS WE SHOULD ALL SIGN THE PETITION TO AMMEND THE SPECIC PERFORMANCE

LAW OF 1885 and make sure that there are no more victims of decency and fair play,



wynyardman

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 14:05

However you wish to look at it– the TC’s rebelled or were forced out at gun point – with the tearing up of the thirteen articles the GC’s stole Cyprus. The constitution signed in 1960 was for a partnership, legally binding in international law. You can not change a legal agreement without the co-signatories authorisation. Conversely if you can arrange for the co-signatories to disappear, then you are free to draw up another agreement and set it before the international community for approval. This was not done, yet still the GC’s claim to be the government of the whole of Cyprus.

Do not give me the argument that the thirteen articles were only suspended - for forty years? – that one won’t wash in any honest court of law.

What I am saying is that until this anomaly is put right - with or without the TC’s, they can go their on way – then the government of the south has no legal claim over any part of Cyprus and are in fact illegal squatters. A criminal offence I do believe.

So how can you call them a sovereign nation at the time of the intervention, let alone the fact that there had been a coup and there was no effective legal government at all?

Also who saved who? Turkey certainly saved the TC’s from attempted genocide but they also saved the GC’s from the Greeks, who invaded their homeland uninvited.

Nowadays it is becoming common practice to confiscate criminals’ assets and if you do not think what the GC’s did from the fifties onwards to the Turkish Cypriots was not criminal then we will have to differ. In the meanwhile I will enjoy my retirement with a clear conscience.

Troodo.

From the safe area.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 14:12

Hey Troodo,



Hear! Hear!

Chill man! Do you want to share my blood pressure medication?



wyn

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 14:33

No Wyn, thanks but my blood pressure is fine. I just can not understand these GC apologists; you usually find they have a hidden a gender. As for the so called ‘Republic of Cyprus’ there are plenty of law professors around the world who have stated that under international law it is illegal . Unfortunately, just like researchers and scientists who disagree about global warming and passive smoking, their voices are stifled. That is the way of the world today - pity – but it does not invalidate their claims.



Troodo

Happy in the safe area

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 14:48

Troodo,



I try to avoid the politics, but I do enjoy listening to the arguments and reading the boards



The only thing that annoys me is....LIKE MANY..........we bought in good faith.



some 2 years on I am £104,000 out of pocket, My builder is not speaking....Isee a painted



shell with no completion date in sight........ I am involved with a legal dispute with my



builder.....I am accused of moral corruption.......I am drawn into International politics



All I want is a few Efes........and a quiet life!.........strange that!



Do you ever feel that you made a mistake?



wyn

Chris


Joined: 26/03/2008
Posts: 454

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 15:14

Yeah, starting this subject!!



Chris

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 18:34

TROODO: "...find they have a hidden a gender."



No mate, I'm a definitely a bloke.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 18:50

Wyn,



Are you saying you went to north Cyprus and bought property without even doing the most basic of research? Are you asking me to believe you did not have the faintest idea about Cypriots being forced from their homes and the island being partitioned - against several UN resolutions - since 1974? And you were still none the wiser about whose property you were buying when you signed on the dotted line?



Your argument about ancient civilisations and the spoils of war don't wash. We're talking about 1974-76, when the Turkish army was clearing people out of their family homes in their thousands and stealing their possessions. It was publicised in all the world's media. Yet you were blissfully unaware. There are people on this BB and others who I consider friends who have had the good grace to accept they took a chance and would accept the consequences. But trying to justify the unjustifiable is in VERY poor taste.

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 20:04

ptepike

you would appear to be an interested party, perhaps having some family grevience, in which case you may understandably have more extreme views created by your own experience or version of events relayed to you.

However for the majority of the purchasers in the TRNC the only 'history of the conflict' they know at time of purchase is the version described by the TC estate agent or advocate and as such they proceed in good faith beleiving that version. It is only after your committed and your an interested party that you take more interest and learn both sides have different version of events.

I,m not going to be drawn into argument regarding the correct history or morals of the present property status, but must say your comments about purchasers of property in TRNC are actually unfounded, unjust and inflamatory.

perhaps thats your intention. Thats my rant over back to the football!

Have a good evening.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 21:26

Hi Pvt Pike,



You cannot deny history.



I acted in good faith ( somewhat naively maybe)



Something tells me that I am part of the silent majority ( Bradus very astutely identifies the

idiom.)



Pilgrim, equally astutely identifies your "modus operandi".



Now Pte Pike (aka Eric Seans) watch my lips. I WAS UNAWARE OF THE 1974 situation.

I bought en spec (maybe naively ) but in good faith nevertheless .Perhaps I should have known more about the Cyprus situation, but at that time, I was busy in the UK trying to earn a living for my family.



I am a child of this universe, I wish no ill will to my fellow man . If I cant do my fellow man a good deed. I won't do him a bad one . Honi soit qui mal I pense!



My father( now deceased) used to say , that certain people are an annoyance to the soul.

I for one minute would not suggest that you fall into that category, but...." if the cap fits,

wear it."



Your jaundiced view of life, does not take into account, that the majority of decent hard working, tax paying. people operate on a level of honesty, decency and integrity. They are not international investors, looking to make the last Ytl out of the deal,



Allow the 'good guys" to have a say. They feel that their contribution to the TRNC economy is constructive. They seek friendship with their Turkish neighbours. They seek to abide by the law,



Not everyone seeks through research, mostly retrospectively. to adopt the moral high ground

and try to demean the genuine decency of the average holiday maker. They do not operate that way.



We all PVT Pike ( aka Eric Seans,) have a moral obligation. to the decent, hard working

tax paying, silent majority, that make the mistake, of buying a holiday home, for their families,....... to sign The Specific Performance Law of 1885 petition for ammendment, to

safeguard the savings of these decent people, and their decision to invest in the economy of the TRNC., will at least mitigate further harm to them



I have been cheated, robbed, demeaned, hoodwinked, denied justice. by trying to be part of this economy. I remain committed, but my heart bleeds for the poor people who have invested their lifetimes savings, who acted in equal good faith, who have been robbed of everything.



Your views offer little to help a settlement satisfactory to all.



wynyardman

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 21:32

Pilgrim,



My posts aren't intended to be "inflamatory" - merely my point of view. Maybe some of us have higher ideals about what's right and wrong than others. I certainly am not an interested party nor do I have a family grievance. I'm not a Greek Cypriot if that's what you mean, and with having a place in the north my friends and acquaintances are either Turkish Cypriot or expat. Stay with me on this.



You say that the first most buyers know about the history of the conflict is what the estate agents or advocates tell them. Correct. When my wife and I were looking at the property pictures in the window we were struck by how most said "TRNC title" but some had "Turkish title". The estate agent said the Greek Cypriots had "left" after 1974 and had "exchanged" their homes for TC ones in the south. Alarm bells started ringing. Why do they have TRNC title, we asked. Because the TRNC guarantees their validity, we were told. So an unrecognised state was "guaranteeing" other people's property. Even bigger alarm bells started ringing. "The Greeks will never be back," the estate agent laughed. He was wrong there. Checks back home (no Internet then) revealed the UN resolutions against Turkey and the reality of the situation. There had been no exchange - there had been an illegal land grab and we wanted no part of it.



So that's why we went for pre-74. Apart from the elderly or the terminally bewildered, I find it very hard to believe that any person of even average intelligence woild hand over their life savings without doing even the most basic of checks - especially in what they surely know is an illegal, breakaway state. Would they behave that way back home? What would they think of someone who occupied their family home after they were forced out of it. The truth is greed and self-indulgence can corrupt many people.



Enjoy the football

big d


Joined: 25/06/2007
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 21:36

hi , so do you think that pre 74 is the only or safest way to go? regards dave

norma jean



Joined: 29/05/2008
Posts: 191

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 21:46

Hi wynyardman, enjoyed reading you message no. 19. Cannot agree with you more. We bought off plan in 2004, moved in august 2005, not everything finished, but hey sold the house in England and had to live somewhere. We had builders electric, then our own meter, mains water so we were lucky. Why did we do this? We had no idea that there could be people out there that just wanted to screw people. We have been very lucky with our builder, few teething problems, but when we listen to other peoples problems we have had none at all. Would we do it all again, probably, this is a wonderful place to live. What more could I say.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 21:57

So when will the North get compensation for Land grabs in the south, when are the GC,s going to admit that Larnaca airport is built on TC land etc etc

There are 2 sides to this story.

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 22:23

As regards exchange land we were told there had actually been an agreed exchange with the greeks and it was based on a points system relative to the previous ownership. We only became aware of the truth when talking to a turkish Cypriot friend some 2 years later. This was pre cyprus44.

As we started looking in 2003 apartments were only 30k (not a life savings for many) and were similarly priced in Turkey, Bulgaria and Croatia, TRNC purchase was not just on price or greed.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 22:52

Pvt Pike, (Eric Seans)



You talk absolute nonesense.



Have you an objection to people buying in America or Australia?



Why doesnt my argument about ancient civilizations and the spoils of war count?

Because it suits your argument to disregard them, Such arrogance!



You assume (only because it suits your current position) that everyone that bought in the TRNC was...morally corrupt....terminally bewildered..below average intelligence......

greedy and self indulgent.



How much more did you pay for pre74 Turkish title land, over and above exchange land?



Very little I guess!



That seems to be the quantum of our greed!.



Mr Seans your views are just that, yours!



I strongly suggest that most people that bought in the TRNC bought on impulse, and because they sought to be part of the community that they bought in. I think it less than

likely that greed was their motivation. They paid the going rate.I do not think that they were

ALL, morally corrupt,terminally bewildered or self indulgent



There are better bargains to be had elsewhere...Turkish mainland....Croatia...Bulgaria

....Cape Verde to name but a few.If greed were the motivation, they would have bought elsewhere.



I repeat, most bought in good faith, without thought at that time for the politics of the situation. They have been sorely treated by the agencies of the TRNC.



The least that you can do is sign the petition for the ammendment to The Specific Performance Law of 1885., and in my opinion offer an apology to all of the decent people who bought in The TRNC, with the best of motivation, and in good faith, sharing the joys of

"the jewel of the Medtiteranean" with their neighbours.



Not everyone shares your jaundiced, small minded views, that you seem to believe reflect

the character of your fellow men.



Land grab? A figment of your imagination.It is not difficult to see why you have been banned from others BBs. You can hold views on a matter, without insulting people who hold differing views.



The bible says,....Give unto Ceasar, that which is ceasars!.......but it doesnt tell you who Ceasar took it off (by force, no doubt. in the first place)



Time for a reality check Mr Seans! Yours views are flawed, and your opinions of decent people need to be rexamined!



One can but hope!



wynyardman

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 23:09

I don't think Eric has answered Troodos's point re the legality of the Greek Cypriot regime in 1974 (Message 11).



If a government of a country sets aside its own constitution and goes to war against a minority of its own citizens, then it becomes an illegal state.



If in an ensuing conflict, it suffers an invasion and loss of sovereignty over some of its territory, then a new set of international rules and conventions come into play.



The Republic of Cyprus was very fortunate to have its conflict in 1974, a few decades later it may have found itself to be the Serbia of the Mediterranean, a country that became a shrunken isolated remnant of a larger country Yugoslavia with its breakaway territories internationally recognized.



I wonder how many Serbs used to own land in Slovenia? Just a thought.



Lem

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 23:29

PtePike,

I can assure you that many people do invest and hand over large amounts of money without doing any research on the property they are buying or the country and its history. It is unbelievable but people buy in the TRNC without having even visited the TRNC!! Our first visit we stayed in the British hotel down by the harbour. We met many who had bought on Seaterra and it was their first visit but their apartments were all but finished. Surprisingly when I raised the question of title deeds, many acted as though I was speaking a foreign language. Those that had done some research tended only to have clicked on "buying property in North Cyprus" and the only thing to come up was estate agent information or promotions from companies and advocates. They promoted buying exchange land in the TRNC as if it had been legally swapped with a GC.This led people to belive that there was a happy TC and GC for every property purchased on the island. A clever move to call title deeds "exchange" it certainly leads people away from the reality of the situation. I personally learnt more about the situation from going on forums, especially ones like Topix that give you a wake up call as to the real situation and the hatred and determination of the GC's to claim back their land (for many its a principle and no amount of compensation will suffice) or move back to the north and reside on their land that has been handed down for generations. Only by visiting this forum did I get a real picture of the situation. However the hatred and racism displayed on such forums just serves to make many dismiss the GC viewpoint or move on because of the language being used. The GC's still believe this whole mess started in 74 with Turkey deciding to invade. They have never admitted the part they have played in the problems and although they say they have not sold any TC houses, they have certainly cherry picked TC land for compulsory purchase so many TC Villages and homes no longer exist. I am not trying to defend peoples decisions for buying disputed land, I decided only to buy pre 74, but its not as straight forward as you would suggest and I respect peoples decisions to make their own choice,albeit an uninformed choice on some occasions. The fault lies not with the buyer but with the Law and governments that see £££££ rather than the cost of human suffering.



Enough sermons!!! Back to my Black Tower wine.

Sue

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 23:39

Sue,



Not Black Tower!

As usual your postings reflect moreso the actuality oh the situation, rather than bigoted opinion.



wyn

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 23:41

Yes Black Tower Wyn, I'm a cheap night out!

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
12/06/2008 23:47

sue and wyn

well said to you both.

more interested in your posts than the football!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 00:01

A cheap night out? Not you Sue!



I would hate to debate with you on a face to face basis. Too rational!



wyn

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 00:39

Wyn



Your absolutely spot on in your postings ...problem is your trying to enlighten a man that was notorious on other boards namely the TRNC villa owners site. I can recall many similar debates there and so it goes on here, best not to get too bothered about it just pour a large G&T and relax knowing that despite your builders problem you made the RIGHT decision in buying property here.



Jim.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 00:46

wackyjim,



Point noted but I am OK with this. Mr Seans reputation is known to me.



Sounds to me that he maybe needs a Black Pudding infusion.



wyn

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 00:47

Thats more like the Wyn I know!!!!!!!

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 15:38

I don't accept this is a black and white issue on a moral front



Looking at it objectively since 1963 the TC's were largely forced out of there villages / homes into very small enclaves that they precariously defended until 1974. They lived a highly restricted lives excluded from government , public service etc and controlled often at gunpoint by GC checkpoints etc. I accept that some GC's were adversly affected by this as well but largely the TC's bore the brunt of it. No international or domestic messures succeeded in resolving this issue of alienation of TC's from their civic rights and use of thier property and they were if the main not well provided for living in poor conditions.



Events in 1974 made even this unacceptable precarious existance untenable and with the Turkish invasion/ intervention they took reasonable steps to ensure their own survival through partition which unfortunately lead to many GC's being forced out of their properties in the North,



I believe that any community has the right to ensure its own survival in extreme circumstances and this principle has long been accepted in other conflicts including more recently Kosovo, Bosnia, Rwanda etc.



Whilst individually many GC's were inoccent of direct involvement in the conflict of the 1960/70's collectively they bear as much responsibilty as other aggressive regimes such as Serbia, Nazi Germany Fascist Italy etc. In all of these cases large territorial adjustments were made after conflicts wer respolved forcing many innocent people out of their homes. Most people today would not even be aware that East Prussia a large section of prewar Germany controlled by them for hundreds of years since the Teutonic Knights seized it was transferred entirely to Russia less than 30 years before 1974 without any rights of remaining/ compensation (I imagine this more than the equvalent of the UK losing Scitland and Wales). Personally some of my ancestors lost land in Russia when the communists took power with no prospect of ever getting this back.



The 1948 establishment of Israel caused similar issue with Palestinians today I saw several being recently interviewed on TV with their pre 1948 title deeds which were reissued mostly to Jewish famililies. Even in the most wildly optimistic Middle East settlement proposals don't contemplate any territorial return before the 1967 war so all of the land gained in 1948 and 1956 war will remain part of Israel.



To bring this back to the TRNC the position here is actually more equitable as TC have generally given up a large probably fairly similar amount of property in the South which to the best of my knowledge hasn't happend in the equivalent partition/ territorial annexures above. To say they could have stayed in the South is to deny the reality of the situation in the 1970's and even today the veneer of civilisation can quickly break down under the influence of propoganda and age old emnities especially when one group is overwhelmingly dominant in terms of number influence ect.



Effectively proponents of not recognising exchange land title are saying that all of the TC's in the north are still refugees with no rights to the land they own/ occupy on a purely temporary basis. By extension you would imply they should go back to their largely (deliberately ?) ruined or confiscated properties such as Larnaca airport with no real assurance as to their long term rights or safety to allow GC's to return.



Why shouldn't they after 34 years be able to have some permanance and the rights that almost every other civilised country grants to sell their propreties as they see fit.



The GC's should be properly compensated for their loss and given some genuine permanence in their new homes in the South as well.



Even the Annan plan envisaged only limited rights of return to GC arround 10% in TRNC territory excluded the bits

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 15:59

Aussie,



Precisely! Very well written!



wynyardman

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 16:08

Thanks Wynyardman



I strongly feel the full implications of the current and historic situation still aren't well understood.



Its much easier to just focus on the loss of individual GC's who were forced out/ left their land in the north rather than why it happened and the issues of the TC losses and the bigger picture of the Cyprus problem.



Aussie

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 16:27

Aussie,

Thanks for that, the best summary I have seen for a long time. Are you a journalist or historian by any chance?

ismet

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 17:54

PtePike

Greeks were not forced out of their houses. They simply ran for their lives. Same as what most of the Turkish people living in the south have done. I am a person born in the south and have been forced to move to the north as everyone was scared of their lives and have seen many examples of whole villages being shot dead..

If they could not stomach the consequences then they should not have started any of these.

Turkey had every right to intervene and protect its people and will do so until a fair settlement is reached which after all these years can only be done by compensation.

Any other scenario is just a dream.

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 19:30

Ismet



Thanks



I am not a journalist and only have an amature interest in History. I used to write a lot of reports and analyse companies etc when I worked in Corporate Banking etc plus wrote a few articles and I guess am used to looking and writing on a lot of different subjects.



Maybe I could write for the Cyprus Star (lol) as I don't think I could do worse than a lot of the columnists.



On a more serious note originally I only heard the Greek side of the Cyprus story up until arround 10 years ago after an extended visit to Turkey and read a lot on the subject since. I had a lot of Greek and GC friends in Australia and even today a lot of them weren't aware you can cross the border into the TRNC let alone the background of the conflict here.



Its a great pity the TC side wasn't able to hammer home to the world what was going on in the 1960s and 70s being largely drowned out by GC propaganda as this may have prevented a lot of the adverse UN resolutions and isolation etc.



If it happened now with the internet, utube home videos etc a lot more people would be aware of it which is half the battle in winning understanding and support.



Aussie

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 19:58

Aussie.



A good article. Well researched and very sympathetically presented.



wyn

Ediz M


Joined: 29/01/2008
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 20:35

biker well said compensation is the only way forward and anything else is just like you say ,just a dream. my fathers home was in larnaca and they have both properties and land ,but i have never heard him say he is going back to reclaim anything.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 21:25

Hi Chris,



Great thread! Well done.



wyn

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 23:40

Lem,



Obviously Cyprus was largely run by the GCs for the GCs from 1960 to 1974 and I've had the "pleasure" of the company of some of the letter-year despots including Nicos Sampson, Mr Third Choice.



The thrust of what I'm saying is there is no justification for complete outsiders benefiting from the suffering and misfortune of others - especially when they then try and justify it by invoking someone else's history.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 23:46

Bradus,



Good post. It's quite ironic to see the praise from some people - even after you pointed out the stupidity of so many TRNC property investors and the hatred and racism of some of the TRNC BBs. Irony is lost on so many.



I'd be keen to know more of the many TC villages in the south which no longer exist. If you could name a few I'd like to see what the UN and ECHR have had to say about it.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 23:53

WACKYJIM: "... trying to enlighten a man that was notorious on other boards namely the TRNC villa owners site."



That's right Jim. For instance, I was notorious on BBs for warning people not to touch anything from Gary Robb. I used to get hateful posts from guys like you and was banned from the forum. Then it became obvious that some members were getting commission on sales. What happened? The buyers lost everything as predicted. That's why I get MIGHTY suspicious about the motives of some who try to silence me.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/06/2008 23:56

Wyn: "Sounds to me that he maybe needs a Black Pudding infusion."



Make sure the black pudding really belongs to you before you grease it up. ;)

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 01:39

Following are the translations of articles completed so far about the villages that have been visited in the south. The translations of articles on the remaining villages in the South will be added once they are completed.



SAKARYA



Turkish name of village : SAKARYA



Old name of village : KUKLA



Present name of village in the map: KOUKLIA



Population according to 1960 census:



TURKISH: 419 GREEK CYPRIOT:622



Turkish population in 1968 : 425



Many Turkish houses in the village of Sakarya were destroyed and razed to the ground. In 1974, Greek Cypriots settled in the Turkish houses, which were in very good condition, but today these houses are in ruins since no repairs have been carried out. House belonging to Nazım CEVDET, was demolished. At Turkish house, which was in very good condition and belonged to Hasan MUHARREM before 1974, now, Greek Cypriots are living and it is in very bad condition.



Turkish houses belonging to Osman TOSUN and Ramadan ALİ FUNDO were demolished and turned into a car park. Surrounding houses are also neglected Turkish houses. In the empty field seen at the villages square, before 1974 there used to be houses belonging to Ahmet TÜCCAR and Mehmet Salih EMİN but now they are all razed to the ground.



KANDU (ÇANAKKALE), CIVILYA (ALSANDIK) AND MALYA (BAGLARBASI)



Within the framework of the visits organized for members of the press by the TRNC Foreign Affairs and Defence Ministry’s Public Information Office to Turkish villages in South Cyprus, on 20 July 2003, a journalist group and a correpondent for the KIBRIS newspaper, visited Kandu (Çanakkale), Civilya (Alsandık) and Malya (Bağlarbaşı) villages in South Cyprus. In the above mentioned Turkish villages, which are attached to Limasol, special investigations were carried out in the former Turkish schools, mosques, cemeteries and houses. During the visits, it was observed that the Turkish school in Kandu (Çanakkale), which is about 15 kilometers west of Limasol and which was totally a Turkish village before 1974, was turned into a Greek Cypriot school, the Turkish cemetery was demolished, and the village’s coffee shop is still running.



Currently, Greek Cypriot refugees from Gazimağusa, Serdarlı and some other villages from the Northern part of the island are living in the village.



Another Turkish village known as Aşağı Civilya (Alsandık) is located 25 kilometers northwest of Limasol. Nobody is living in the village now, where previously 168 Turks used to live before 1974, and all the Turkish houses in the village have been demolished.



In Malya (Bağlarbaşı), where the Turks and Greek Cypriots used to live together before 1974, there are 700 Greek Cypriots living there today and the old Turkish school and mosque are now being used by the Greek Cypriots.



YOLÜSTÜ (KOLONİ)



Turkish name of village : YOLÜSTÜ



Old name of village : KOLONİ



Present name of village in the map: KOLONİ



Population according to 1960 census:



TURKS: 101 GREEK CYPRIOTS: 0



Turkish population in 1968 : 157



Many of the Turkish houses in the village of Yolüstü (Koloni) were demolished and razed to the ground. Houses which were in very good condition in 1974, today, are in very bad condition because no repairs have been carried out. Turkish school in Yolüstü village is in extremely bad condition. The cemetery in the village of Yolüstü has been completely destroyed and no longer exists. Turkish houses in the village of Yolüstü are in ruins and are being used as stables. Greek Cypriots who tried to eliminate the Turkish existence in the village, first destroyed and razed to the ground the Turkish cemetery.



TABANLI (İSTİNCO)



Mehmet Güçlü



Under these conditions, it is impossible return to South Cyprus.



It has been 15 days since I vis

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 08:02

Sue,



Very profound. Thank you for posting. I guess this is the best justification for The TRNC it is possible to see. It seems to have bought 34 years of peace.



I guess its a case of "why fix it if it isn't broke!"



An excellent posting!



wyn

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 10:35

Sue



An excellent post with a lot of detail. A lot has been made of the GC churches etc that have not been maintained/ preserved in the TRNC (which is unfortunate) and its useful to hear of the other side as it appears a lot more of the destruction was wilful rather than mere neglect.



The ROC has also had a lot more money and resources which could have been used to properly maintain and manage most of the TC properties if there was the will to do so.



Aussie

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 13:14

The beauty of the above report is that once one knows the names of the lost villages you can do further research to gain a before and after picture of many of the Cypriot villages. The noticeable difference if you research this is that the TRNC tends to have claimed and newly built on GC land whereas the GC's on TC land in the South has tended to bulldoze or leave to rot TC houses. Many of the old TC villages have made way for new infrastructures like Government buildings and motorways. Guess you could say one has used the back door approach removing much that was TC under the guise of compulsory purchase and the other has done it in more of an "in your face" way. Although some TC houses have been inhabited and rented by displaced GC's little has been done to these properties. I use the term displaced because I feel that the South given the time lapse and wealth of the government and some GC's, there really should be no "refugees" in its true sense. What is evident is that propoganda exists on both sides and "housing" corruption is rife. As usual the real suffers are the people caught up in this tangled web, which had there been the willpower from the governments, could have been settled long ago.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 13:46

Bradus,



The difficulty is the article you posted is, as you concede, a propaganda piece organised as a press facility by the TRNC authorities. The write-ups don't even say anything about the authors or who they represent. There is no international or impartial input whatsoever. I asked for evidence of the "many TC villages" which no longer exist, as you said in your earlier post. Why is there nothing from the UN or ECHR claiming this has happened? Turkey would have lost no time exploiting this issue - if it were true. Anyone in their right minds knows that derelict abandoned buildings - especially dangerous ones built of mud and straw - are pulled down as a legal building control requirement all over Europe. But I still see nothing anywhere - even in your article - about entire villages being wiped from the map.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 14:01

Wyn,



Times Online did a piece about a couple who were ripped off in the TRNC.

http://property.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/property/overseas/article2543384.ece I wonder what you think of some of the comments from readers:



"Let me get this straight. You go to an illegal "state", and buy a piece of property to be built on stolen land, and then you wonder why you get ripped off? As one wise man said, if something sounds too good to be true, it usually is! People looking for a clever deal usually end up feeling pretty stupid."



Andrew Gartside, Nicosia (the free side!), Cyprus





"There was no attempted genocide in Cyprus ericdayi and Mary, UN investigations into the events of Cyprus made no mention of the word genocide.



Not once.



Which more than I can say for the Turks and the Armenian Genocide, it's widely accepted around the world as fact, despite Turkey's efforts at denial.



What you laughingly call Greek Cypriot 'propaganda' is actually established fact accepted by the UN and the EU through their own investigations into the Cyprus debacle.



As for the human rights and 'misery and hardship' you bemoan, I suggest you take a look at the treatment Turkey's Kurds have received over the last few decades.



'The Genocide Files' by Harry Gibbons was even mentioned, page after page of allegations, yet, not one page of references, not even a solitary line stating where he got these cold hard 'facts' from.



So, impartial UN reports are Greek Cypriot 'propaganda' and unreferenced trash like 'The Genocide Files' are 'facts'.



What a strange world you people inhabit."



Nick L, London,



"I agree, my parents own properties near Kyrenia and lost everything in 1974. All these people who buy properties in the northern Cyprus know very well that they are buying land that legally will never belong to them. No court will compensate them, as they do not have the legal documents and titile deeds. They get what they deserve and they should expect no sympathy, but be ashamed of themeselves trying to benefit from someone's else's misery and suffering."



Terry, Sydney,



"british conmen involved . they have tarnished the trnc"



chris, london, england



"They went looking for a cheap deal, on occupied lands, on property legally belonging to a refugee who was kicked out of his/her home and land by the Turkish army in 1974.



Typical parasites that they are, they tried to have a cheap home on stolen land but got robbed instead. Serves them right!!!"



Dino, Toronto, Canada

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 14:39

Pvt Pke,



Me thinks I smell the toxic trail of Scaramanger.



wyn

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 14:46

Pvt Pke,



Is Eric Sean an anagram?



wyn

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 14:49

" Why should compensation be paid? Because a sovereign country was attacked by a foreign state which went on to seize a third of the island, expelling the population and stealing their properties. Of course, war crimes like ethnic cleansing has meant cheap holiday homes for some that most decent people wouldn't touch with a bargepole. "



What about poland its lost loads of land to germany ?

Oh palastine ?



hmmm little island down under brits sent all its convicts there then there is the other place that ethnicly cleaned a country of almost all its indiginous native indians..

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 15:18

Littlenige,



I felt that the subject had been well debated on this thread.

There is an old expression....The first victim of war is truth.

I guess that this thread proves the point.

There is always two sides to every story, without anyone having resort to personal insults!



My opinion, that is all.



wynyardman

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 15:35

I feel that by being so selective ES you have rather shot yourself in the foot. I respect some of the opinions above but surely you must see that horors were committed on both sides and that it is evident to most that research Cyprus history well, the GC'S have a tendency to only look at history from 1974.All history before this period is strongly denied. I totally agree with you that the article I used above is not a good source but I was careful to say that it named many of the TC Villages which then allowed you to do a literature search to look at the villages history.This then helps you form your own opinion. There are now too many reliable sources to reach any other conclusion other than call it genocide or that not many attrocities were commited by the Greeks and GC's throughout the 1960's. The UK Commons Select Committee found that "there is little doubt that much of the violence which the Turkish Cypriots claim led to the total or partial destruction of 103 Turkish villages and the displacement of about a quarter of the total Turkish Cypriot population was either directly inspired by, or connived at, by the Greek Cypriot leadership."



The UN secretary-general reported to the Security Council: "When the disturbances broke out in December 1963 and continued during the first part of 1964, thousands of Turkish Cypriots fled their homes, taking with them only what they could drive or carry, and sought refuge in safer villages and areas."



I could supply even more evidence from reliable sources like the Red Cross, Washington Post and many other European newspapers like The Guardian, Dail Express, Daily Herald, Daily Telegraph and more. The first Western reporters there were all to state "we have seen sights too frightful to be described in print. Horror was so extreme that the people seemed stunned beyond tears." British paatrols have alos contributed to the evidence. In 1964 a British Patrol found armed Greek Cypriots attacking Ayios Sozomenos( one of those villages mentioned earlier). They were unable to stop this attack but it is well documented.

With regards to the coment above "UN investigations into the events of Cyprus made no mention of the word genocide" Well theres a surprise! Are we just playing with words here Eric? Cannot massacre have the same meaning?



Lets face it the United Nations not only failed to condemn the forcible usurpation of the legal order in Cyprus, but actually rewarded it by treating the by then wholly Greek Cypriot administration as if it were the government of Cyprus (Security Council Res. 186 of 1964). This acceptance has continued to the present day, and reflects no credit upon the United Nations, nor upon Britain, nor the other countries who have acquiesced.



On Aug. 12, 1964, the UK representative to the United Nations wrote to his government in London as follows:



"What is our policy and true feelings about the future of Cyprus and about Makarios? Judging from the English newspapers and many others, the feeling is very strong indeed against Makarios and his so-called government, and nothing would please the British people more than to see him toppled and the Cyprus problem solved by the direct dealings between the Turks and the Greeks. We are of course supporting the latter course, but I have never seen any expression of the official disapproval in public against Makarios and his evil doings. Is there an official view about this, and what do we think we should do in the long run? Sometimes it seems that the obsession of some people with "the Commonwealth" blinds us to everything else and it would be high treason to take more active line against Makarios and his henchmen. At other times the dominant feature seems to be concern lest active opposition against Makarios should lead to direct conflict with the Cypriots and end up with our losing our bases."

More recently Gearge B

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 15:40

Don't panic mr manering

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 15:44

Sorry for the mistakes...must read what I have put before posting. Trying to look as if I'm doing some house-work when really intermittently blogging on here. Must do one or the other. But .....any excuse not to do it.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 17:27

Bradus,



One common factor on many TRNC BBs is when someone has been proved wrong, they then attempt a diversion by changing the subject. I asked you for evidence of the "many" Turkish villages in the south that were wiped from the map and you've yet to provide any. Nobody asked for a GC atrocity count or a list of historic injustices against TCs. I'm well aware of them - and I read those newspaper cuttings years ago. Buzz words in certain jobs don't impress me. Suffice to say in my line of work comment is free but facts are sacred. Let's have some facts about the missing villages.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 17:29

RTC: "Don't panic mr manering"



Uncle Arthur...

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 17:58

Biker: "Greeks were not forced out of their houses."



The rest of the world begs to differ. I've the greatest respect for refugees from both sides. GCs and TCs should all be compensated for their losses (with the exception of those allocated another refugee's property which was then sold on). But I think most reasonable people would accept the decisions of international courts rather than assorted BB members occupying refugee property who are clearly are compromised. As this latest rukling shows:



ECHR orders Turkey to pay up in new Cyprus property case



23/04/2008



The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) has ordered Turkey to pay 835.000 euros within three months to Greek Cypriot refugee Ioannis Demades for the loss of use of his property in Kyrenia, occupied by Turkish troops since 1974.



In its principle judgment the Court found Turkey guilty of continuous violations of the European Convention of Human Rights by reason of complete denial of the rights of the applicant with respect to his home and the peaceful enjoyment of his property in Kyrenia.



Displaced Greek Cypriots like the applicant cannot be deemed to have lost title to their property and compensation to be awarded by this Court in such cases is confined to losses emanating from the denial of access and loss of control, use and enjoyment of his property, the decision added.



John Demades, who dies in 2006, submitted his application against Turkey in 1990. His heirs later pursued the application.



Greek Cypriot lawyer Achilleas Demetriades, described the Court’s decision as very important, saying that the decision reaffirms that the Greek Cypriots are the sole owners of their properties in the Turkish occupied areas.



He added that the Court’s decision is important since it gives an estimation of the cost of occupation of the Greek Cypriot properties in Kyrenia.



If Turkey does not pay the compensation in three months, it will be charged with an additional 8% interest per year.



Demades’ home, a two storey house with garden near the sea, is now occupied by a high ranking Turkish officer. The area around the house is a Turkish military zone.



The Greek Cypriot lawyer expressed the view that the Demades case marks the end of the first round of cases.



“The Demades case is the third successful case dealing with compensations from Turkey in matters of property rights. The first was the Loizidou case when the right of property was secured, the second was the Xenidi - Aresti case when the cost of occupation in the fenced off city of Famagusta was determined and the third is the Demades case which determined the cost of occupation in Kyrenia”.



In all, 32 petitions of Greek Cypriot refugees against Turkey have been accepted by the Court and will be examined soon. Eight more applications will follow, which, according to Demetriades, are considered as pilot cases which may determine the future of the so-called compensation committee, set up in the Turkish occupied areas of Cyprus and seeking to be considered as an effective domestic remedy to which Greek Cypriots must apply first with regard to claims on their property.



Apart from the above cases, 1,500 additional petitions are pending before the ECHR. The Court decided to freeze them in view of the decisions to be taken regarding the eight pilot cases, Demetriades said.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 19:33

ES,

Would you like to hazard a guess about what Turkey will do with these awards? Do you think she will pay up? I say she will not.

ismet

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 19:44

PtePike,

I am not changing the subject. The point I am trying to make is that the attrocities described are proof that this resulted in the loss and destruction of TC villages. I quote.

The UK Commons Select Committee found that "there is little doubt that much of the violence which the Turkish Cypriots claim led to the total or partial destruction of 103 Turkish villages was either directly inspired by, or connived at, by the Greek Cypriot leadership." I then supported some of what the TC's were claiming by giving evidence from other sources (media, army patrols, red cross) as to these events. Most reporting that the TC's fled due to the massacres therefore losing their villages and homes.

Total destruction and abandonment of a village to me means that it has been lost. If you want some names of villages that were purely TC villages try looking at Aktepe which was majority Tc but is now green belt. I'd say that is a lost village wouldn't you? Sogucak(mamundali) was solely TC until 64 and Kavakli (Ay Yorgi) which is 20 km from Paphos was only TC inhabited. Aydogan (Stavrogonna) was also only inhabited by TC before 1974. Your criticism of my term evidence based remark is unjust I was making the point that I would only try to quote from reliable well researched articles. You said the same but in a different way.Talking about diversions I note you have not answered my question at the very end of my thread. Must admit I find your evident distaste for the English that buy properties in the North somewhat strange. I could follow your arguement if you had not purchased in the TRNC yourself. Although you have purchased pre 74 property, with such an obvious disgust in the"illegal" TRNC government and a high regard for the "legal" south why would you prop up such a regime if your principles are so high? Are you not supporting the regime through your taxes, purchases and general living expenses? Your sentiments would be more valued if you had actually decided not to purchase there because of your principles.



However if you think the grass is greener on the other side, its only a short walk down Ledra Street now!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 20:33

Dear Bradus,



I never sought to argue history. I do not consider that I know enough.



I try to debate on morality, I will not allow anyone to say that I am morally corrupt, that I have no consideration for my fellow man, because that is not so.



Yet again, when we bought, it was after a weeks holiday. We saw glossy brochures in an Estate Agents window (much as we saw in Florida,Greece, Majorca, Minorca, Marbella) We were seduced by the silver tongued estate agent, we were lied to.



The builder made promises and somewhat foolishly enterered a LEGAL contract, that he knew well he had no chance of fulfilling. We were hoodwinked! The builder knew well that he and his smart a_____sed lawyer would not have to perform, because he knew that the legal system was so weak, that they could drive a coach and horses through it.



Lets stop at this point, and ask the question, Who is the victim?



Now then as I was told, and as I understand it the Turks of Cyprus were marginalised. They were gradually shut out of mainstream politics, and there fore basic existense



.Eaoka I word that I heard my father murmer, and then Enosis. NOW in retrospect I understand.



Bradus, I find is the pureist of souls. She cares for her fellow man. She argues her story with passion, and a sense of justice. I find her arguments convincing.



PVT Pke, aka Scaramanger, Eric Sean, argues that only the Greeks were victims. He puts forward a very rational argument, and speaks with an educated tongue. Who do you believe? I was bought up to believe that there were two sides to every argument. I guess, then that its game set and match to Bradus.



i could go on, but it has been said many times before. There are two sides to every argument .Both sides have been debated on this thread with a great deal of eloquence.

Both sides have valid points!



My argument is, those of us that bought in good faith, did just that, bought in good faith.

We were not aware of the politics.(perhaps somewhat naively) We did not seek to buy cheaply the homes of the disposessed. We did not seek to take advantage of the spoils of war.



For my part I thought that I was contributing to a fledgeling economy. I thought that I was doing my bit! I understood the division to North and South Cyprus, I thought that I understood why! I thought property had been exchanged and that compensation had been given. I understood that it was a compromise, but I equally understood that compromise was the way of the world.



NOW THEN MR SEAN AND LITTLENIGE, watch my lips! I care for my fellow man, whatever his/her race or creed. I respect their right to life. If I can't do them a good turn, then I certainly won't do them a bad one. I steal or take advantage of no ones misfortune.



I bought on the advice of my advocate, and Estate Agent. Officers of this government.



I WISH I HAD NOT!...I have been lied to, cheated, involved in tax evasion. I have been ignored, left in the dark, mislead. I have met some of the most distorted ,mislead misunderstood, mean spirited people, on the planet. If that incudes you Mr Seans and you

littlenige, so be it!



But........I have been introduced to The Turkish people, kindly. caring,and with values we in then UK long alone lost. I have met Brabus, Chris, Francine, Turtle and Marion Stokes,

all people that have been badly abused by this system called the TRNC, but who stick in there, because they have higher ideals. THEY are true children of the Universe!.



Some 2 years ago I signed a contract. I abided by my part. I have paid to date £104,000.



My builder(when he was last speaking, told me my property was worth £170.000 of anyones money. I had got a bargain! I WILL TELL YOU WHAT. the first one that offers me my money back, plus Bank deposit interest, can have it.



Would I be disappointed. I will give up the dream

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 20:57

In short Wyn,



to make claims for one side when much the same could also be said about the other, says much about partisanship, but litle about objectivity.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 21:32

SUE,



I may be wrong, but something tells me that there will be no happiness in debating this issue with Pvt Pike. As my old father used to say....Be on good terms with all people, even the dull and ignorant, they too have their story.



wyn

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 21:40

Sound advice Wyn.

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 22:53

The argument about whether the GC's acts pre 1974 committed Genocide is a matter of debatet for the sake of illustration the Wikidepia definition is as follows



"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.



While precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Article 2, of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."[1]





I think in large part the UN etc was able to avoid the thorny issue of considering the matter one of Genocide by 2 main factors



1 confusion or lack of decisive proof as to the level of official government involvement and the endemic nature of the acts committed at the time. I think the various calls by Makarios etc at times for the cessation of violence (while probably encouraging it unofficially) helped cloud the issue



2 The TC's were able to mount a reasonably effective defence preventing a larger scale slaughter plus inflicting many casualties on the GC side as well



Both of these points I think made it possible to argue the conflict was "a normal civil conflict or war" appear avoiding the "undesirable" tag of Genocide which would potentially have forced the UN and international community to take more decisive action than they wanted (although its notable in the Rwandan Genocide they did little to try prevent it).



The degree of acts required for genocide is debatable and difficult to to differentiate, hence the popularity of terms like ethnic cleansing used to describe acts by several different groups in the breakup of the former Yugoslavia.



In some ways I think it makes more sense to talk of attempted genocide when the aims are ultimately not largely successful rather like attempted murder etc.



Genocide its largely a matter of opinion and political expediency as even in the case of the Jewish holocaust/ gencide (probably the most widely accepted example) this is still denied by countries like Iran and the Armenian position was originally denied by Israel and Jewish groups but now supported as it has become a popular issue internationally. In ancient or even more recent history it was a much easier thing to pinpoint as the massacre of entire tribes or racial groups was unfortunately relatively frequently done.



Overall I don't think its necessary to definatively prove a GC genocide to argue that large numbers of TC were killed and forced into substandard living conditions as a result of the conflict.





Aussie

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
14/06/2008 23:27

Aussie,



Very thought provoking!



wyn

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
15/06/2008 00:38

ES,

Would you like to hazard a guess about what Turkey will do with these awards? Do you think she will pay up? I say she will not.

ismet

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
15/06/2008 00:54

At the end of the day it does not matter what any of us say, What will be, will be.



Problem is too many immigrants to this island have blinkers on, prefering to think that the British Raj still exists. Oh Dear, they have a big fall coming and the EU will not save them.

Ediz M


Joined: 29/01/2008
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
15/06/2008 16:13

PIKEY DO YOU BLAME THE TURKISH CYPRIOTS OR TURKEY FOR THE DIVEDED CYPRUS

Lincsman



Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
15/06/2008 21:58

I think the most telling statistic of the period from 1963-1974 is that the Turkish Cypriots approx 28% of the population ended up living within only 4% of the land mass area of Cyprus notably areas they could defend against attack. Now they didn't do this by choice they were sytematically driven out of their homes.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
15/06/2008 22:13

Lincsman,



A very telling statistic, very telling indeed!



wynyardman

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
15/06/2008 22:54

Elko,



You know the mindset of the Orient (not my "mentor" Mr Sabri's Orient). Club EU will not disappear and I think despite distractions on The Lisbon Treaty front, a repidly modernising Turkey will pay up eventually so she can join. Then "anavatar" and "yavruvatar" won't be quite so important, and not before time. Cyprus for the Cypriots.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
15/06/2008 22:58

Lincsman,



Have you ever heard about a politician called Denktas, a policy called seperatism, and a fascist group called TMT? Do some reading up on all the fcats to find out who assisted the GCs in herding the TCs into ghettos.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
15/06/2008 23:03

Ediz,



I blame Greece and Turkey and their local proxies for the divided Cyprus, with a little help from outside forces via the US State Department and CIA. Britain also played its part in a blundering colonial way.



Gonnae no shout at me, BTW.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
15/06/2008 23:20

Bradus,



It's always better to stick to established fact rather than what you think you know, or what you assume. You claim I have an obvious high regard for the GC regime. Again, I have to ask you where is the evidence? I've often described both leaderships as being as bad as the other and sharing the blame for the ongoing conflict, as longer established members of the TRNC BBs will know. What I do have a respect for is international law and court decisions, including those which slate both sides in Cyprus, not just Turkey. Can you say the same? Another assumption you seem to make is how much time I spend in north Cyprus. The longer and more self-indulgent the posts, the easier it is to get carried away. ;)

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 00:33

Sue

don't think anyones ever going to win against this one.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 08:35

In 1929 the TC's made up fifty one percent of the population and owned sixty eight percent of the land. What the hell happend after that?



Troodo.

Happy in the safe area.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 08:42

Troodo,



Another telling statistic! It paints a very clear picture, when taken in conjunction Lincsmans

posting!



wynyardman

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 12:40

biker,



we do agree with you - my husband family from limassol had to leave with one suit case full of tittle deeds and pictures - the house is still there occupied by someone else - life was more important than material things but after so many years TC PREFERED to live in peace with turkey -GC missed their chance in 2004 - too late now

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 13:05

Sylvie,



I couldn't agree more. The GCs voted like sheep in 2004. The election of Papadopoulos after Clerides was a tragedy for all Cypriots.

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 13:16

PtePike

All this talk about "established facts". How much do yourself know about Cyprus problem and have you lived through it or are you just brain washed with the greek propaganda?

Or are you just a GC putting your point of view?

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 13:34

biker,



you know, we know because you or relatives lived thoses times - i was sorry when they said no because i was hoping they've changed - my husband told me that i was too naive to expect them to change - so from now on for the sake of the TC it is much better like than - by the way - wich place where you from.?

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 14:03

Hi Sylvie

I was born in Tatlısu (Mari - greek name) which was an all Turkish village. One of the biggest in the area about 15 files before you reach Limassol.

This place is now occupied by GC and half the houses have been completely demolished. I went to see the house I was born in and it is knocked down and there is not trace that there ever was a house there.

Most of the nearby villagers came to Tatlisu when the coup was done in 74 as it was thought safer. Then the greeks started bomb shelling the village from all directions until the people their surrendered.

I also read another story in the newspaper last week as civil greek police started beating a few Turkish people working in the south at a building site.

Then without giving any explanation or charging them with something left them as they all laughed.

Not much has changed in the last 45 years then.

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 14:25

biker,



there is nothing to expect that we don't have already, war lives people with sorrow and sometimes anger but hate will not bring any good especially with people not willing to accept their faults in the past - france keep asking turkey to apologize about armenians and france didn't want to apologize until recently about VICHY during the last war - never mind ! Ncyprus is beautiful so are the ncypriots!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 20:50

Biker,



I know a fair amount about the Cyprus problem. I've been on the front line of it over the years. I'm not a Greek Cypriot or a Turkish Cypriot so I haven't had to live through it. I'm experienced enough to recognise the propaganda from both sides. Neither is all that different from the other and it usually boils down to the blame game or who started what. Both communities have to share a collective responsibility for the politicians they have elected, who at different stages in recent history have been puppets for Greece and Turkey and have shown more interest in foreign "motherlands" than Cyprus the homeland. I'm not tainted with the prejudice and suspicion endemic in some people just because they happened to be somewhere at a certain time in history. Nor do I have much time for the groupies who patronise these people to try and boost their own sense of belonging.



What about you? What roles are you playing helping to shape a better future for the children of Cyprus?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 21:02

Pte Pike,



Hardly impartial from your postings.



Why don't you respond to the postings of Lincsman and troodos if you wish your postings to



be treated with any credibility.



Scaramanger, Eric Seans , my friend, your reputation precedes you, on most boards, and



now this one.



wynyardman

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 21:12

PtePike



Perhaps given your arguments above you could briefly outline what you consider the security/ safety, political and social participation of the TC to have been from say 1964 to 1974 and whether you would have considered this acceptable if you were in the same position.



What course of action do you think the TC and Turkey should have taken given the events of the time ?



This would better assist in understanding your position in the matter



Aussie

Ediz M


Joined: 29/01/2008
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 21:14

PIKEY I HAVE TAKEN MY FATHER TO THE SOUTH TO SEE HIS HOME AND TO TAKE PICTURES OF GRAVES FOR HIS RELATIVES ,AND THE TEARS THAT HE SHED WAS ENOUGH FOR ME ,SO MY FRIEND I DONT CARE WHO DID WHAT, GREEK CYPRIOTS CAN STAY IN THE SOUTH AND TURKISH CYPRIOTS IN THE NORTH. RIGHT OR WRONG ,THEY DONT WANT TO MIX US THEY JUST WANT TO CONTROL US ,AND THAT IS FAR TOO LATE.BIKER IS RIGHT I DONT THINK YOU REALLY DO UNDERSTAND AND I DONT BLAME YOU BECOUSE GREEK CYPRIOTS ARE FAR TOO DIPLOMATIC FOR TURKISH CYPRIOTS

Lincsman



Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 22:03

To Pte Pike. Now I don't profess to be an expert on this subject but I certainly have "read up on it" and yes I'm aware of the TMT and the others and their role within the troubles. I am not saying that one side is totally to blame and the other is totally blameless. In any conflict there is bound to be good and bad on both sides. The point I was making is that by sheer weight of statistics the Turkish Cypriots were the most oppressed,this is why they ended up primarily within the defensible "enclaves" and consequently why they ended up only occupying 4% of the land area.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 22:12

Pte Pike, or Eric or whoever,

you are obviously an Agent Provocateur, whose raison d'etre is to wind up people on various forums by flippantly dismissing any comments or opinions, however valid, which do not tally with your own narrow and often misguided viewpoint. As PAUL rightly commented there is little point continuing to discuss or debate these matters with you as you appear to be totally intransigient.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 22:50

Wyn,



Show me anything that is biased in my last post. I don't need lessons in credibility from someone who came to the TRNC with no background knowledge then trusted the word of an estate agent. Point a finger at me and you'll see three pointing at youself. And they're all burned.

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 22:58

thread title seems accurate for one as 'conflict' appears to be optimum agenda.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 23:10

Aussie,



The TCs set up a parallel administration after 1963 and the official policy was one of separatism. Taksim was in the agenda from the 1950s, not 1974. Whether they withdrew from the government of Cyprus or were forced from it has never been properly agreed. They needed to protect themselves from the EOKA thugs but equally they were controlled by Turkish officers whose word had to be obeyed. So their social and political participation was compromised from the start. I think the TCs deserved a better leader than Denktas, who like Makarios was never really sincere about power-sharing in Cyprus. Equally, Turkey showed little flexibility over the "soft underbelly" issue and Greece learned the lessons of hardball rather late in the day. There's so much more to this than one long paragraph but I hope you can detect sincerity in my position.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 23:14

Ediz,



I'm sorry for the suffering of your family. But if you allow bitterness and recrimination to control your whole outlook, then no lessons can be learned from history. Are you in Cyprus or London?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 23:17

Pvt Pike,



I did not accuse you of bias in your last post.



I invited you to respond to the statistics provided by Lincsman and troodos.



I invited you not to accuse people of wrong doing who bought property in good faith and with the full connivance of The Government. I invite you not to be offensive to people who hold differing opinions to those that you hold.



I hope a satisfactory conclusion can be negotiated by Mr Talat and Mr Christophos. to the

Cyprus problem, and that both sides can bury the emnity that has for so long promoted the hatred and hurt.,on which you seem to thrive.



In short Mr Seans, I hope for peace for all.



wynyardman

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 23:19

Lincsman,



I agree with you. The Turkish Cypriots were the most oppressed of the two communities. It's how this issue was dealt with/exploited by their own leadership and outside proxies that shaped their destiny.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 23:20

Bradus,



OK then, bye bye.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 23:25

Bradus,



maybe its my sense of humour, but much of this sounds as if it is from Hannibal Lektor.



At least that was an entertaining film.



wyn

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 23:32

Wyn,



If you read back you'll see I actually DID reply to Lincsman and have done so again. Troodo quoted some unreferenced figures and did not address his post to me, so I don't know what you expect. I'm staying on topic so I think your comments about buying proiperty in good faith are irrelevant. And where am I being offensive, simply by holding different views? I also hope for peace (although you've got the GC president's name wrong). You have a real cheek claiming I thrive on conflict when you are the one occupying the property of a war victim. In fact, you seem keen to keep arguing with me. And are you suggesting you can be a member of more than one board but I cannot? Perhaps you are "in your cups".

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 23:36

WYN: "...much of this sounds as if it is from Hannibal Lektor."



Well if we eat YOUR liver then we're all going to get p*ssed.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 23:41

Bradus,



I guess its time to bolt the door!



wyn

Ediz M


Joined: 29/01/2008
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
16/06/2008 23:56

PIKEY THERE IS NO BITTERNESS I DONT CARE ABOUT THE POLITICS ,PEACE = NORTH FOR THE TURKS SOUTH FOR THE GREEKS ,

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 00:33

Door bolted Wyn.

I wonder if the rest of the "groupies" and "those tainted with prejudice and suspicion because they happened to be somewhere at a certain time in history" along with the "complete outsiders benefiting from the suffering and misfortune of others" but not forgetting those of you who have "bought cheap holiday homes that most decent people wouldn't touch with a bargepole" or the "elderly or the terminally bewildered" and people that "think they know but are just assuming" and finally (could go on but yawn yawn seems he's said it all before) the self-indulgent one, will be so happy it is firmly bolted.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 00:45

Bradus, Take care,



Goodbye, PVT Pike aka Scaramanger aka Rifleman Fisher aka Eric Seans



or is it....Just plain old .......... Campbell Thomas. You've all been warned!



Your reputation precedes you! Goodnight all!





wyn

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 12:51

How's the old head this morning, Wyn?

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 17:58

PtePike

You said in your previous post :

"I know a fair amount about the Cyprus problem. I've been on the front line of it over the years. I'm not a Greek Cypriot or a Turkish Cypriot so I haven't had to live through "

If yor stated age is correct (38) then you have not lived through any of the Cyprus problems therefore what you know is what you have heard or read.



I have lived through all and I am first degree witness to what was happening.

I suggest you ONLY put forward your opinion on matters that you have first hand experince on.

How long have you lived on this island if at all?

Biker

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 18:52

biker,



it is amazing i notice that people trust more what they heards from someone who knows someone who knows someone than witnesses of event !!! i dont know why !!!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 18:54

Biker,



So what you're saying is nobody is qualified to comment upon or analyse any aspect of the Cyprus conflict unless they have actually heard shots fired in anger? With the greatest of respect, I have to disagree with you. If that were the case you may as well send home all the United Nations people - the ones who have kept Cypriots from each others' throats since 1964 - as well as dismiss out of hand the respected authors who have written extensively about Cyprus. And I suppose the diplomats who have brokered peace deals only to have them rejected - yet again - by the Cypriots themselves are of no interest to you either. You will have read the most cited books and papers, surely?



You don't need to have first hand experience of an issue to discuss it - just the established facts at hand and the ability to examine from all angles. Some of the least reliable commentators can be those who claim to have "been there" but were nowhere near the place. Others, perhaps like youself, use the fact that they were there as some kind of badge that says they are the only ones qualified to comment. These people should be putting their experiences to good use by engaging in confidence-building with the other side and bi-communal development work. What part are you playing in shaping a better Cyprus for the children of today and tomorrow?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 19:04

Quite!



There goes the voice of experience.

Biker. Cant you see reality means nothing to this man.

As you so nobley say, " Peace" May it eventually be yours!



wyn

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 19:06

SYLVIE: "it is amazing i notice that people trust more what they heards from someone who knows someone who knows someone than witnesses of event !!! i dont know why !!!"



If you've spent any time in Cyprus you should know this is exactly the way a large number of the population get their "information" - and then go on to peddle coffee shop gossip as fact. C'est vrais, n'est-ce pas?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 19:09

Wyn,



Exposing people's personal details on a public internet forum without their consent is a serious matter gets people into trouble. What do you have to say?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 19:14

PP ,



I say go away PP.



You sir, are an annoyance to the soul.



Again, Goodnight Campbell.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 19:35

Drunk or not, that kind of behaviour will do you no favours, Wyn.

Ediz M


Joined: 29/01/2008
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 19:38

PIKEY I HAD TO LAUGH WHEN YOU QUOTED THE UN KEEPING PEACE ,PLEASE IT,S TURKEY THAT KEEPS THE PEACE, JUST BY IT,S HUGE PRESENCE.DOES ANYONE REALLY RESPECT THE UNITED NATIONS ,LOOK WHAT THE ISRALIES DID LAST YEAR ,OH BY THE WAY MAYBE YOU CAN ANSWER THIS QUESTION ,WHERE WAS BRITAIN AT THE 74 COUP THEY SIGNED A TREATY ALONG WITH TURKEY AND GREECE JUST FOR SUCH ATROCITIES. ONLY TURKEY KEPT ITS PROMISE,BRITAIN AND GREECE BOTH BROKE INTERNATIONAL LAWS.TURKEYS INTERVENTION WAS FOR PEACE AND YOU CAN,T DISAGREE SO FAR SO GOOD ,SO COME ON GIVE PEACE A CHANCE.

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 19:56

PTITE PIKE,



malheureusement vrai !!!! unfortunatly true ! but believe me i know cyprus very well since over 35 years from the south to the north and you must accept that people who were in the conflict have so much to say comparing to people having news from gossips , propaganda or pseudo historical books !!!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 20:18

Ediz,



If you favour Turkey over the UN for peacekeeping in Cyprus, why has the European Court of Human Rights found Turkey guilty of so many war crimes in Cyprus? Is that called keeping the peace? Is the ECHR wrong as well as the rest of the international community? Do a small number of BB members know better than everybody else in the world?

cruggs


Joined: 06/04/2008
Posts: 498

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 20:21

bradus wyn and others,you can not reason with self opionated people as on this topic. the more people that reply to their comments,the bigger a buzz they get. the easy way to put the fire out is too not feed it and it will go out on its

own.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 20:34

EDIZ, WOULD YOU REALLY FEEL SECURE WITH THE UN'S TRACK RECORD? JUST A FEW OF THEIR SERIOUS FAILURES TO MAINTAIN SECURITY ARE:

Failure to prevent the 1994 Rwandan Genocide, which resulted in the killings of nearly a million people, due to the refusal of Security Council members to approve any military action.

Failure by MONUC (UNSC Resolution 1291) to effectively intervene during the Second Congo War, which claimed nearly five million people in the Democratic Republic of the Congo 1998-2002, and in carrying out and distributing humanitarian aid.

Failure to intervene in the 1995 Srebrenica massacre: despite the fact that the UN designated Srebrenica a "safe haven" for refugees and assigned 600 Dutch peacekeepers to protect it, the peacekeeping force was not authorised to use force.

Failure to successfully deliver food to starving people in Somalia; the food was instead usually seized by local warlords. A U.S./UN attempt to apprehend the warlords seizing these shipments resulted in the 1993 Battle of Mogadishu

Failure to implement provisions of United Nations Security Council Resolutions related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Failed to prevent or help sufficiently in the area of Darfur genocide: and this crisis still exists in that area.

Ediz M


Joined: 29/01/2008
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 20:43

PIKEY DO YOU OR DONT YOU HAVE AN ANSWER AS TO WHY GREECE AND BRITAIN DID NOT CARRY OUT THEIR INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATIONS IN THE 1974 COUP AS THEY SHOULD HAVE AND ONLY LEFT IT TO TURKEY,ITS EASY TO SEE THAT TURKEY HAS ACHIEVED PEACE OTHERWISE YOU WOULD,NT BE LIVING THERE ,WOULD YOU NOW.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 20:47

Sylvie,



I'm glad you accept the coffee shop analogy. Naturally, people who have been caught up in conflict make good witnesses - but it doesn't give them carte blanche to be the voice of reason. Au contraire, many are extremely bitter, nationalistic and unforgiving of the other side. You've heard it on the Greek side and on the Turkish side, I am sure. And yet history had shown that the only way to progress is to embrace your former enemies. South Africa and Northern Ireland have proved capable of doing this. Malheuresement, Cyprus has not. So I think more people in Cyprus should be looking in the mirror.



BTW, I wish I was petit but I'm certainement not petite, mon ami. ;)

Ediz M


Joined: 29/01/2008
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 20:53

SUE recent history has shown us that the united nations are just observers

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 20:56

Ediz,



How could Greece have fulfilled its obligations under the Treaty of Guarantee when it had attacked Cyprus through the coup just five days before the Turkish invasion? Greece was one of the bad guys. The Cyprus National Guard was controleld and officered by Greece. The only thing that united the pro-Makarios faction and EOKA-B was the Turkish invasion. As for Britain it did not have the stomach to go to war with Turkey. Surely you know your Cyprus history?

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 21:01

we all need to take a deep breath and calm down on this one ,

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 21:09

Bradus,



So much for your departure from the debate - less than 24 hours.



Again, you veer away from the subject and go down other avenues. Nobody was asking about the efficacy of United Nations missions anywhere else in the world apart from Cyprus. Why not seek out people to impress on Bosnian or Rwandan forums? The fact remains that UNFICYP is the longest established and most successful peacekeeping mission in the history of the UN. You should go to the mess some time. You may hear one of their favourite ditties on the jukebox: "Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with you."

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 21:15

Cruggs msg 122,



Pretty searing analysis of the subject matter of the thread, I have to say. A valuable contribition.





ps , you really need to calm down , your posts are being monitered and will be removed if you continue in this aggressive manner

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 21:27

I quote "little point continuing to discuss or debate these matters with YOU"

My post was to Ediz.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 21:33

Ediz,



Considering the number of Turkish Cypriot lives saved by direct actions of the United Nations, I'm surprised you dismiss tham as "observers". Please don't take this the wrong way, but I really don't think you know much about Cyprus.

windy


Joined: 29/04/2008
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 21:35

Why does everyone always say re Turkish invasion> surely it was intervention

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 21:40

ptitepike,



i do not understand what you mean by " i am glad you accept the coffee shop "

mais, (but)



i must tell you i never heard any hate from the turkish side about the greeks, just fact and TC were going to accept change by voting in favour of the anan plan by 76% si je me souviens bien (if i remember ) - my husband and i always tought tolerance and forginess but you must say the GC vote "oxi" by a very large majority - they just show they haven't change and will not with the TC - i can understand today why the TC who said yes do not want any changes today - it is better for everyone -



PETITE IS feminin are you a women ? if not you must call yourself petitpike -



i have been discussing of this for years into an other forum before 2004 - i had hope and then i feel disapointement and today i feel relieve !

Ediz M


Joined: 29/01/2008
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 21:48

pikey so we do agree that greece attacked cyprus but what you dont mention is why i suspect you know why,i,m half turkish cypriot and half irish ,are you greek .as for britain not having the stomach to go to war with turkey ,i dont think you have understood they were supposed to go in as allies ,as it was greece who broke the treaty as peace keepers.once again you could say it was a u turn we have had a few of them lately

Ediz M


Joined: 29/01/2008
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 22:03

pikey yes i am aware how many lives they saved ,but what you are not aware of is that many more turkish lives were saved by greek cypriots and visa versa becouse they were friends and neighbours and why let me spell it out for you again becouse of greece .in your defence though you were not there you just quote what you read. thank you and goodbye.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 22:45

Windy,



It was an intervention in the form of an amphibious and airborne military invasion. So yes, it was an invasion whichever way you look at it. It would be laughable if people spoke about the Allied Intervention of Normandy. Or the Coalition Intervention of Iraq. Or the Argentinian Intervention of the Falklands. They were all invasions.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 22:51

Sylvie,



I already said the GCs voted like sheep by rejecting Annan so there's no disagreement there. It was almost as big an own goal as the 1974 coup. Exactly, what sort of message did it send out to the TCs? For years it was Denktas screwing up the peace process and just when Clerides was about to do a deal Papadopolous got voted in. Only in Cyprus. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose...

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
17/06/2008 23:04

Ediz,



How can you be sure about how many lives were saved by whom and who saved the most? What does it matter? Take it from me that the UN saved many, many Turkish Cypriot lives and communities from 1964 to 1974 and beyond. If you're half Irish and half TC then there's a good chance you may be part GC as well, though from how you come across I doubt anyone has ever told you that in London. Perhaps the Irish part of you should be looking at how two divided communities overcame their differences and now live in peace.



No, I am not Greek as you asked and I said so earlier in this thread. Love their food though - almost as good as Turkish. Ethnic suspicion is common among people who have been brought up on nationalistic propaganda far from the reality and the island. I gained most of my knowledge about Cyprus on the Green Line, not in Green Lanes, if you know what I mean. ;)

meddmale


Joined: 19/11/2007
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
18/06/2008 15:48

So America is going to be given back to the Native Americans and Australia back to the aborigines, at what pointing time did all this gentlemanly behaviour start?



Has some one has forgotten to tell Israel ? which has no sanctions like we do in the north



So when is the UK going to give back its land basses on Cyprus or does the UK own them?



This would free up lots of “occupied” Land



I suppose if the Greeks agreed to reinstate the original constitution signed up to on independence they could make some sort of case



Who ruled the island before the British clamed it after WWI (They did not take any of Germany)? So as I believe that the Turkish are the rightful government on then island the Turkish are being graceful in allowing the Greeks to stay



After all these are the same people that attempted genocide against us then they were EOAKA terrorists now they are poor innocent peaceful villagers who have been disposed

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
18/06/2008 16:53

Petitte Pike

As everyone else agrees form that your opinions not shared by any other on this form. Is it not time to pack your bags and go.

The peacekeepers are the Turkish Army since 74 as UN was not able to do their job. In fact there was belief that they were actually helping greeks to achieve their ambitions of 'Magalo Idea'.

Now it is more understandable as what you have been doing on the green line as well.

Turkey had a right to Intervene to protect its people. Therefore invasion is not quite right reight is it?

Turkey did not claim to come to look for "Weapons of Mass Destruction" or any other fashionable excuse as "fighting with terrorism" as US says where most of the people involved in 9/11 was from Saudis but they carry on selling them weapons and instead go and invade other countries.

Maybe they should deploy you serve in Iraq so that you understand about the realities in life and not the propagandas.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/06/2008 19:25

Biker,



When you lose an argument do you never do so with good grace?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/06/2008 19:38

Meddmale,



You can't seriously compare US and Australian history with what's happening in Cyprus today. Are you trying to justify illegal occupation in Europe with cowboys and Indians analogies? Turkey has been found guilty by the ECHR of numerous war crimes in Cyprus and has several UN resolutions against it demanding withdrawal and the upholding of human rights. I go along with the world view.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
18/06/2008 20:09

Biker and Meddmale,

Like many on the forum, you may have realised that a certain person(I wonder who) is more concerned with victory than the truth. Look over this post and it soon becomes evident that this particular person, debates by evading questions with counter questions and diversive tactics. Failing this they become personal, insulting and rude as soon as they perceive that other people have the upper hand. In becoming personal they unfortunately leave the subject altogether and turn their attack on the other people by remarks of an offensive nature and spiteful character. Actually this is a very well known tactic because it takes so little skill to put it into effect.

Perhaps we should have listened to Cruggs who rightly pointed out that "you cannot reason with self opionated people, as on this topic. the more people that reply to their comments,the bigger a buzz they get. the easy way to put the fire out is too not feed it and it will go out on its own."

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/06/2008 23:53

Bradus,



This thread was started by someone who wanted to debate the Turk/Greek conflict. I am only one contributor to the thread. If you feel out of your depth or upset because there are people in the world who disagree with you, best to stick to what you know, surelyl. There are safer threads out there.

Chris


Joined: 26/03/2008
Posts: 454

Message Posted:
19/06/2008 01:02

Yes,



I started this thread, and I personally think it should now end!!!!!



Chris

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
19/06/2008 01:39

As I said on Message 117.



And some fell on stoney ground!



wynyardman

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
19/06/2008 23:04

I agree with you Sylvie. His French is as bad as his Gaelic.

I lived & worked 3 years in Turkey & never heard one word against the Greeks

but was 2 weeks in Greek island of Corfu when I was invited by a very

handsome young man to visit Corfu town where he displayed the most racist

and shocking reference to a Turkish family who were there. Put me right off

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
20/06/2008 08:14

PtePike.

Stupid boy.



Troodo

happy to live in the safe area.

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
20/06/2008 09:31

experience my dear make you to realize how human being can be - as we should be equal you still find some believing they are the king of the world !!! it must be a complex of inferiority which make them to deny others and don't see any other reason !!!! have a good day

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/06/2008 11:42

phyray,



You're supposed to be a teacher yet your post lacks context and sense. What is the Corfu link? All Greeks are racist because you met one? Does that mean you think Greek Cypriots are Greek? Would you care to point out the mistakes in Gaelic and French? Perhaps GTCS registration does not extend to everyone applicable down here in sunny Ayrshire.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/06/2008 11:59

Bradus





Joined: 25/02/2007

Posts: 556





Message Posted:

11/06/2008 22:56

Reply Message 50 of 62 in Discussion



Some real good debating has taken place over the last few weeks on this forum. Listening to other peoples opinions can be a very positive learning experience. Sometimes we don't like what we hear but we do usually enjoy the challenge it presents and continue to reflect on important issues. It would be a real shame if we started to turn constructive debate into a slanging match. The beauty of this forum has always been that people can say exactly what they think without being attacked and treated in a rude and unfriendly way. I have every faith this will continue knowing most of the bloggers.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
20/06/2008 16:03

PP,



I could not agree more with the sentiments outlined in 152, however upon analysis , it appears to be your postings which bring dissent and personal insults to the thread.



It may be a good start therefore, if you showed a little more respect to your fellow posters, who may hold differing views, from those that you may hold.



You are right that this is a very friendly Board , and we must not lose that.



wyn

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
20/06/2008 19:32

Good afternoon PP,

Lets please just end this now. Surely you agree its getting a little boring? I stand by my sentiments identified in message 152. These were directed at posters that I know well and have always been friendly, polite and well mannered and have made this board into one of the most helpful and friendliest boards in Cyprus. Members that have my upmost respect. I also wrote the above because I had no knowledge of who you were and thought it somewhat rude to be dismissive of you before you had even had the opportunity to debate and discuss with the forum members. The problem is that you didn't really debate or discuss. Whilst I'm saying what a shame it would be to turn this debate into a slanging match rather than a constructive debate you immediately used inflammatory language (see post 108) insulted people and not so much debated as criticised and belittled people. I really would have welcomed and enjoyed a constructive bebate. There is nothing better than someone challenging your thoughts and making you reflect. But Eric surely you can see, not just from this forum but from some of the other forums you post on, people find your manner threatening and your whole attitude to discussion dissmissive. I say this not to provoke a response or retaliation but to be truthful about why people respond the way they do. I am not out of my depth, nor am I upset but I am disappointed that you turned, what could have been a constructive interesting debate into nothing more than a confrontational session. Yes I admit I played my part in that, and for all those who suggested that I should have stopped, its easy on reflection to see that this would have been the best move and I should have taken your advice.

The whole episode is sad really Eric, because what has been achieved, except a lot of bad feeling? I wish you well and hope that you don't respond in a defensive, rude manner to my post but I thought I should explain why I no longer wish to respond to your posts (unless you do them in a more acceptable manner then I would of course enjoy even if our opinions differed)

Shall we just put an end to this tit for tat and say that we will depart this thread with dignity.



Bradus.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
20/06/2008 20:13

Bradus,



No one could fault your logic and decency. You are truly a child of the universe!



The debate SHOULD NOT STOP. Healthy it is, until personal insults raise their evil heads!



I invite you to share in the thread Talat v Christophias. Please be constructive!



Purim Facit!



Good debating!



wyn

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/06/2008 20:49

Bradus,



The thread should have ended at post 146 but some people just couldn't help themselves. They obviously wanted to continue the debate. You posted a message on another thread about "slanging matches" - then took part in one youself on this thread. What has become apparent is the selectively thin skin some people have when they encounter a different point of view. I believe in international law and, being the legal owner of pre-74 property, I am on the moral highground.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
20/06/2008 22:09

PP.



Sad....I think yiou may really believe it!



wyn

lovelife


Joined: 07/07/2007
Posts: 231

Message Posted:
20/06/2008 22:33

I think that people should agree to disagree, this is an emotive subject and people who have posted clearly have strong opinions on it.

The positive aspect of this forum is that people's opinions are respected by those on the forum, even if they do not necessarily agree with them.



The serious issues should be debated on the forum but it does not need to descend into a slanging match.



Yes the forum is friendly and I have gained a great deal of information from people who are good enough to share their knowledge and experience's on this forum, long may it continue and develop.



LL

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
20/06/2008 23:22

PtePike



I am only relating my own experience. I did not say 'all'

Sylvie has already corrected your French. I posted you on another

heading as I thought this was too long (and getting boring) about the

Gaelic, as I am learning the language & wanted to know if you are

learning it or if you are a native speaker? You obviously didn't get it

I did not understand why you are asking me about seeing a sheep the night before?

Yes, I am still teaching at present & have taught in Scotland from Caithness

to Dumfries, in Istanbul, U.A.E. Bahrain & also managed an Arab school for

a while, as well as Cyprus, and am also qualified by Cambridge Uni. for

examining both oral and written work in English.

You seem to take a delight in trying to insult people. If you are a Scot I am

ashamed for you.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
21/06/2008 12:36

phylray,



Being a teacher, I thought you would point out exactly where the mistakes were in French and Gaelic and a direct answer would be appreciated. The thing about seeing a sheep the night before is based on a concept most people understand as "humour". It didn't need a reply if you didn't get it. You speak about shame, but most Scots have a very strong sense of justice and fair play. We don't like the idea of people benefiting from others' misfortune. If you have an interest in the Gàidhealtachd and its history, where men, women and children were burned out of their homes so others could profit, you may understand the low regard most of us hold for those individuals who would occupy the properties of refugees in Cyprus.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 11:27

As most of you will be aware, I was out of order on another posing for aiming a frustrating swipe at PtPike. This frustration was born from many weary battles with this person.

I was disappointed that he enetred into this forum because to debate with him is just a waste of ones energy. You just go around and around in circles. I have learnt that the best thing to do is to ignore his comments. He gets euphorically high on winding people up.

Yes, he is entitled to his opinion but I do not have to engage with him.



I have come to believe that if this man had the power and authority, he would gladly evict all exchange and TMD land holders and would probably put you on trial. At the same time I would not debate with a person who considers me and other exchange holders scum and being less than human.

To enter in to a debate with someone I do not expect them to agree with me but I do expect them to honour me as a human being.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 11:43

ilovecyprus,



An honest and forthright posting!



I formed a similar opinion some time back! Oh well Cest la vie!



wyn

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 11:48

ILC,



My last post was addressed to Phylray who has yet to respond, but I'll answer you anyway. This is only the internet - it's not the real world. Don't let your anger at another member's differing opinions explode into anger. There are far more subtle ways to pick holes in arguments. When you see a group of adult individuals behaving like playground bullies on a debate forum it would suggest they have lost the debate. Like it or not, my opinions represent those of the moral majority - but not on a TRNC BB for obvious reasons. Don't worry, I wouldn't put anyone on trial for their misdeeds - maybe community service to give them an idea of community. Also, there is a big difference between holding someone in "low regard", as I said, and considering them "scum and less than human" as you said. You appear to have adopted the Cypriot trait of fantasy and distortion.

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 12:05

je pense que le sujet est clos !!! inutule de poursuivre, cela ne changera pas la face du monde - bonne journée à tous -

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 13:20

Sorry ILC,



What can I say? Sometimes you learn the hard way.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 13:28

That's no problem Bradus. You know I have very high regard for you

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 23:25

Group hug?