trespass penalty loophole

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
01/03/2010 21:34

Probably going over old ground. but

The penalty the Orams had to pay was for trespass for the years they used the land the villa was on.

What if you bought and sold a villa every few years or exchanged with friends.? You could live 40 years there but would only be liable for the length of stay in your last purchase(trespass)

professoregit


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 381

Message Posted:
02/03/2010 08:51

Yes, but you would be liable for the relevant purchase and transfer (VAT) taxes for each transaction. Think

best scenario would be to put it in someone's name who does not have seizeble UK assets. Yes, you would be liable for trespass but not so for pulling the house down and relinquishing the property to previous "owner".

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
02/03/2010 09:03

But you would still have to move out.

Another idea is for groups of people from different countries to join together and form a house exchange group. For example if 6 people were in the group and were given the numbers 1-6 the idea is that the person issued the writ would exchange with the next person in the group, e.g. if it was number 1 they would exchange with 2. If No.1 was from the UK then No.2 would have to be non-UK. If No.2 was TC all the better. The TRNC government would of course refuse to give permission to demolish the property.

If the houses were all similar, e.g. 3 bed with pool on 1 donum it might be nice to have a house swap every now and then.

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
02/03/2010 10:21

Mal, why would you have to move out?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
02/03/2010 10:27

You would be in contempt of court if you did not

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
02/03/2010 10:31

That would be contempt of the ROC and UK courts, I guess?



Dear me.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
02/03/2010 14:05

Mal



You would have to move out,correct. but what I am saying is the penalty is only based on how long you stayed in that property,and you would be moving out anyway every 5 years say.



If you moved every few years ,in the unlikely event of a property being targeted what are the chances of you being there at the wrong time . If taxes were paid each time then it wouldnt be worth it, so as you say a trust and swap would be the way.



On another point ,it would appear that if I buy a villa but never stay in it ,I cant be penalised.

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
02/03/2010 16:40

Prefessoregit's point seemed to be that if the villa was put in the name of someone who sisn't have any seizable assets in a EU country, what penalty could there be?



And what penalty could be enforced if one were in contempt of court?

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
02/03/2010 17:50

Rottolover



If you didnt have assets in the EU ,good enough, but even if you did, it would not be worth it to go to the bother of putting those assets in another name or trust.Just pay the penalty for trespass for living in your mates villa, you couldnt be asked to pull it down cos you didnt put it there.when ordered to leave just swap again.



It looks like a lot of the Orams trouble was that they bought the land and had a villa built on it.



You you bought villa ready built ,.The only title in your name is TRNC .The ROC do not recognise such title therefore cannot recognise you as being the owner. The Orams were done, not for owning the villa, but for building it.



It would appear that any future court case will mean the plaintiff will have to initiate 3 separate actions.

1. Against you for trespass .

2. Against the builder to return the land to its original and for denying use of said land .

3. Against TRNC/Turkey for denying access.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
02/03/2010 18:10

In my mind, if you don't contest the writ and therefore don't have legal fees then the costs would be minimal if you have not "damaged" the land by building on it. Could even be no costs if you left as soon as the owner issued the writ.

professoregit


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 381

Message Posted:
02/03/2010 19:24

So, putting the deeds in somebody else's name would in fact cloudy the waters so to speak. Therefore, would a potential litigant really want to pursue action against:

1. TRNC deeded owner of said land/house with nono seizable assets.

2. "Trespasser" of said land, for say a period of 3 years @ what would seem like a nominal penalty?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
03/03/2010 10:28

'ownership / 'deeds' were irrelevant in the Apostolides v Orams case.. it was who was USING the property...

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
03/03/2010 11:23

m



Exactly, within 24 hours of Orams case there was an estate agent ambulance chasing and offering to set up trusts, and if following the norm in Cyprus ,no doubt for a cost that would bear no relation to legal work involved.



The cost would be in the loss of the property you were staying in ,as if after being done for trespass you returned, then that would be in contempt.Anyone with large stake might want the security of some sort of sharing arrangement,but from what I read it would be like wanting security from a meteor hitting.



A GC cannot use the ECHR to get compensation from TRNC or any non eu defendant,but the TC ,as in Sofi case, can as GC/ROC are in EU.Also, the TC can get property in the south back but the GC cant get his.

The ECHR ruling while appearing one sided to GC's might have the opposite effect .Money and land out of ROC without ability to get similar from NC.



Needs sorted,quickly, both economies ruined is no use to anyone.The lawyers will just move on.

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
03/03/2010 12:30

I already have so much contempt for the RoC court that a little bit more wouldnt make any difference!



Just dont accept any papers from anyone and report them and their car number to the police as they are acting illegally. Also if you get stuck with any ppapers do not go to court in RoC as this was the major mistake in the Orams case.