news flash re property

rsalih


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 306

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 17:55

Humans rights court in Strasburg has dropped 1500 cases where greek cypriots have applied for compensation. They have been told they have to apply to northern cyprus commisıon for compensation

mags111



Joined: 17/08/2008
Posts: 251

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:01

good news!!

NoveltyBubble


Joined: 11/11/2009
Posts: 46

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:08

Any proof of this news or is it just rumour?

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:08

Any link to read in full

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:15

Yes any links please !!

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:19

Just checked on ECHR website.It is correct.If compensation is sought by the GC owner they must use IPC before resorting to ECHR otherwise their claim will fail.



The court states that the GC are not compelled to use this route they can wait for a solutuion to the Cyprus problem

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:26

Could you put a link on here please.

rsalih


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 306

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:32

sorry not that good at computers

brightlights



Joined: 09/11/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:34

http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?item=1&portal=hbkm&action=html&highlight=Cyprus&sessionid=48131573&skin=hudoc-pr-en



Try this



Best Regards



Diana

darrener2


Joined: 30/12/2008
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:34

http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?item=1&portal=hbkm&action=html&highlight=Cyprus&sessionid=48131573&skin=hudoc-pr-en

rsalih


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 306

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:35

There were news flashes on turkish television today, so definetly not a rumour

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:37

Due to lack of Greek funds the Turkish army are going to finish off the job which they half heartily did in 1974 and take the whole Island by then capturing the land registry office, which will pose no problems to who owns what! It all belongs to Turkey!



Richard

brightlights



Joined: 09/11/2009
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:39

Note the use of the word in the press release text...



...........did not live as such under the control of the “TRNC”,......





Best Regards



Diana

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:42

Just received this today form London and the Embargoed! office - who have been pushing from some time.



When I have the'details to follow' I will let you all have them.



"Just got word from Cyprus that the TRNC has won the landmark case on its Immovable Property Commission. Contrary to mega GC objections, the ECHR has ruled this is a valid local remedy. Details to follow...."



Good, innit?

billyboy1


Joined: 01/06/2009
Posts: 590

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:50

Seems to be going in our favour for once...about bloody time

NoveltyBubble


Joined: 11/11/2009
Posts: 46

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 18:58

OK, so now any GC claimants must go through the IPC and only if they are not satisfied with what they are offered by the IPC can they then go on to the ECHR?



What about the route Mr Apostildes took against the Orams? Is it still possible to go through the GC courts and have the decision enforced in another EU member state?

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 19:07

Decision of the Court



Article 1 of Protocol No. 1



The present eight cases are the first applications to be examined as to their admissibility following the pilot-judgment procedure in Xenides-Arestis v. Turkey. Although the Chamber in this case concluded that the remedy offered seemed adequate, its judgments did not include a detailed analysis of the points of principle and interpretation of the Convention and was not binding on the Grand Chamber.



As to whether the requirement to exhaust domestic remedies (Article 35 § 1) applied to the situation of Greek-Cypriot owners of property under the control of the “TRNC”



The Court maintained its view that pending resolution of the illegal occupation of northern Cyprus, it was crucial that individuals nonetheless continued to receive protection of their rights on a daily basis. Even if the applicants did not live as such under the control of the “TRNC”, if there was an effective remedy available for their complaints there, the r

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 19:20

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28921

kavenkoy


Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 1787

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 19:36

ok so for us in simple terms now ,lol.





what excatly does it mean ....real slowly and easy does it please .



message 16 sounds simple ,is this correct anybody



kav

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 20:41

http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com/2010/03/05/the-immovable-property-commission-is-vindicated/



GOOD ARTICLE

well done

twaddle


Joined: 06/07/2008
Posts: 245

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 20:42

Having read through the wording of the judgement, it would appear that any dispossessed GC land owner cannot now attempt to sue for loss of use or return of their property without first lodging an application with the IPC as this is now accepted by the ECHR as a suitable local resolution. They can only take a case to the ECHR if they have been made an offer by the IPC and they wish to reject such an offer as inappropriate. I am not sure that it would stop a GC court case with regard to trespass as with the Orams and would imagine that another case would need to go before the GC courts for argument that the IPC is a suitable local resolution. I wonder what 6xMs and Elko think??

greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 20:48

So if you have a property in Northern Cyprus is this ruling good or bad for you.Too much jargon for me to take in,

Grey.

natalie


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 323

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 20:53

This can only at long, long last be good news?

twaddle


Joined: 06/07/2008
Posts: 245

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 20:53

I think it is definately good!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 20:59

Twaddle



The only reason the Orams were on a loser from the word go was that the IPC route was not an option (didn't exist as a an accepted route at the time of the original decision). As it does exists now and is accepted as a viable local solution by the ECJ (not the ECHR) there is little chance the type of injustice the Orams have faced would be repeated without the appellant taking severe risks of financial ruin themselves..



If you are offered a settlement out of court and don't accept it and instead take the case to court - if the prosecution are awarded no improvement in the deal offered out of court, the costs have to be borne by the person brining the case not the defendant.



The idea is to discourage mendacious litigation where a suitable alternative exists and was offered already. No need for courts to be filled with things that can be negotiated via the IPC.



This is a big step forward for those with properties in the TRNC.

twaddle


Joined: 06/07/2008
Posts: 245

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 21:01

Thanks for that Groucho, perhaps we can all feel a little less vulnerable!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 21:09

This at least wrests control away form a kangaroo court in the south...

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 22:07

This is good news but does it stop GC owners going to the ROC courts and British courts to claim compensation and court costs for trespass? Is this mechanism only suitable for the GC's that desire financial compensation?



It will be interesting to see if the IPC returns property to those who do not wish a financial solution but still wish to return or retain ownership of their property. If this does not happen then cases can go to the ECHR having exhausted this remedy.

twaddle


Joined: 06/07/2008
Posts: 245

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 22:48

The Judgement says



"In the light of the many changes some 35 years after the properties were left, it would risk being arbitrary and injudicious for the Court to impose an obligation to effect restitution in all cases – which would result in the forcible eviction and rehousing of many men, women and children – even with the aim of vindicating the rights of victims of violations of the Convention"



I believe that this means that compensation may well be acceptable rather than the desired return of the property. Thus as per Groucho's comments earlier, the claimant would then risk paying substantial costs.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 23:38

well the penny has turned at long last, its about time. xx

twaddle


Joined: 06/07/2008
Posts: 245

Message Posted:
05/03/2010 23:50

Quote "well the penny has turned at long last, its about time. xx "



Yes...and the Worm has dropped! LOL!!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 07:32

And the metaphor has hit the fan! ROFL

jacktheladett


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 528

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 08:10

At last, the tide has turned, a sensible decision for a change.



I think estate agents will be sighing with relief this morning!!

Corbo



Joined: 13/09/2009
Posts: 627

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 08:33

With the penny turning and the worm dropping and good news on TRNC property have we entered the proverbial parallel Universe?

Deniz1


Joined: 28/07/2009
Posts: 3829

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 08:43

Wonderful idea

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 09:00

Lilli you are a true treasure

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 11:08

Good morning folks.. I awoke to find a Q re this case from 'TRNC' Vaughan and I responded that the ruling wasn't expected until May ! :0



This ruling 'legitimises' the IPC as TURKEY's obligation to provide a local remedy .. not 'TRNC's' - remedies that have to be exhausted before a GC can now 'go direct' to the ECHR.



Members will remember I have long said that the 'rump' RoC govt should have encouraged GCs to 'pile in' with petitions - as ( correct me if I'm wrong) there has yet to be a case where TR have returned a property that is occupied ......



This ruling is just as important as the Apostolides v Orams case .



I simply cannot understand WHY the 'rump' RoC govt ( esp the prev administration ) could pour scorn on TR having the opportunity to provide a local remedy and rejoice at other earlier ( pro GC plaintiff ) decisions .



IF GCs HAD piled in.. we could have seen how realistic TR's rulings were - as when the ECHR ruled fdirect the awards were always higher than TR of

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 11:14

cont:



IF GCs HAD piled in.. we could have seen how realistic TR's rulings were - as when the ECHR ruled direct the awards were always higher than TR offered and the GCs retained the ownership of the property - they just accepted compo for 'loss of use'





This result, combined with the out of court settlement to the TC lady for her 1.5 properties in Larnaca ( 'rump' RoC accepted the 'unfairness' of the necessity to reside before pursuing a claim ) will hopefully mean that we can see negotiations proceed on the vexed property question.



Let no-one doubt that the ownership of many properties in 'TRNC' still resides with a GC.. We have yet to see how TR will deal with occupied properties and ultimately - how the ECHR views the fairness of awards.



The 'rump' RoC govt. have allowed an easy goal to be scored against them, but the 'game' has a long way to go, yet.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 12:47

Hi mmmmmm,



I wonder why the date was brought forward so far and seemingly without notice?



Did you pick up on the comment in the statement:

"In the light of the many changes some 35 years after the properties were left, it would risk being arbitrary and injudicious for the Court to impose an obligation to effect restitution in all cases – which would result in the forcible eviction and rehousing of many men, women and children – even with the aim of vindicating the rights of victims of violations of the Convention."



Your reading on this would be...?

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 12:55

ECHR

Let us fisrt get things straight this case involved legal cases against Turkey involving former G/C property owners who sought redress for the loss of the property from Turkey after the 1974 intervention. Their claims have been rejected by the (ECHR) which said that domestic remedies had not been fully exhausted and this should occur in the first instance. Instead, G/Cs whose property was lost during this period must first now go to the (IPC) which was established in 2005 to settle their cases and only if they cannot agree then apply to the to the European court for redress. I will dispense with the figures thus far you can see them in the links. The ECHR has ruled the İPC "provides an accessible and effective redress for G/Cs complaints about deprivation of property in theTRNc following 1974".The claiments complained they had been deprived of the use of their property and access to their homes in the TRNC.

Con...

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 12:57

con..

Their properties were said to include various plots of land, some cultivated and fully furnished houses or buildings. The court said that persons claiming their rights to immovable or movable property could bring claims to the IPC for a fee of 100 TL per application if they submitted their title deeds as evidence of ownership. This case still respected the right to protection of property and respect for home and discrimination still recognising the RoC as the legitimate government. However this ruling by ECHR also for the first time recognises an official institution of the TRNC by an international institution and is truely a historic decision.Firstly compensation if sought will be paid to G/C if requested and agreed by the IPC to G/C who produce their title deeds for land which has subsequently been sold, developed or still inhabited by T/C families of 74.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 12:58

con..In other words the expat, foreign and T/C communities who have purchased property or reside in or on these properties should now feel safer and forget about their assets being seized within other EU jurisdictions as there is no mention of trespass in the IPC’s decision. The ruling said the IPC was an appropriate domestic body for deciding the complex matters of property ownership in the island in terms of valuation and assessing financial compensation. The Court also stated it not an obligation on claiments to make use of the IPC. Claiments could chose to wait for a political solution. İf claiments could’nt agree with the IPC or wait for a political solution then it would be open to them to then apply to the European court for redress. İmportantly the IPCs valuation and its assessing of financial compensation will probably now be used as the benchmark for valuation in the TRNC and any subsequent EU cases.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 13:00

Con..The IPC will probably value land in its oringinal state at current market value any sebsequent development that has taken place will probabley be discounted as it will be argued by the IPC that G/Cs are not entitled to the benefits of development as that would be tantamount to unjust enrichment in the form of semi-completed or completed properties and commercial investments. The Court was not convinced by the allegation that IPC members lacked subjective impartiality, due among other things to the presence of Turkish military personnel or the appointment of members of the IPC by the “TRNC” President. Nor was it of the opinion that the sums of compensation awarded under Law 67/2005 would fall short of what could be regarded as reasonable compensation.



Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 13:01

Con..

Secondly the court stated ‘’In the light of the many changes some 35 years after the properties were left, it would risk being arbitrary and injudicious for the Court to impose an obligation to effect restitution in all cases – which would result in the forcible eviction and rehousing of many men, women and children – even with the aim of vindicating the rights of victims of violations of the Convention. This makes it extremly difficult to argue that the original G/C owners have final say which has be a fundamental stumbling block in negotiatons the rights of the present occupiers must now be respected. Crack open the champagne people..This ruling makes it more of an equal playing field now...



Con...

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 13:02

Con..

PS.

Moving away from the above. The recent floods were a mini catasrophe for all of us. During this whole peace process we have heard how christophias has constantly said we are all brothers and fellow cypriots and Cypriots alone together will find a solution. Yet they have not even offered us.. a blanket... not a biscuıt... nothing not even words of empathy for the many who have suffered. Where is all thıs brotherly love they have been pushing on the international stage to justify their argument making us out to be cold hearted rekindalled ottoman barbarians (the Terrible Turks). İf they had any modescom of humanitarianism in themselves they have just missed a golden opportunity to show us we have only now again witnessed their true emotions which is no emotions. And all these politicians believe they can sit down in a federal parliament and play lovie dovie politics... don’t make me laugh...

Winslow.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 13:49

Mark/border can you give us idiots a simple anwer...is it good news for home owners in the TRNC...a simple YES OR NO would suffice )))))

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 14:08

It looks to me that there is a some manouvering in the background to nudge both sides to coming to a political agreement, I would imagine that there will be more GC's wanting a political solution now to the property issue as Mark stated many times before the GC's were previously discouraged from using the IPC now will they use the IPC or will they push thier leadership for a political solution, the EHCR has given them the choice....

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 14:42

Greece is on its uppers there will be no financial aid from Athens for the ROC ! or political support with the Germans breathing down their neck for blood !



The ROC is on its own with no big mother country to support them in this crisis, they have never been more vulnerable or alone.



If there is a deal to be done now is the time for the TRNC to push the ROC to the limit and settle !

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 14:46

well i never,this will without doubt help talat with his negotiations now that the leaders are on a level playing field regarding property,the worm has finally turned,i still cant see them finding a solution though but now all displaced gcs will be pointed to the IPC first.I bet they'll be holding an emergency behind the scenes meeting soon in the south,i personally have always felt that the GCs should be compensated,also TCs for properties they owned in the south,but as for restitution now,this will no longer happen or be possible,this is in my view is the best news that all of you who own property in NC could have had.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 15:23

Hi 'TRNC' V



re msg 39



I expected the judgement in May and have no idea.. we may learn more.. my reading is it's 'common sense' but it doesn't rule out restitution - just not wholesale restitution !



re msg 40

Winslow -if you wish most of us to 'respect' your offerings kindly accept that the ECHR rule that they aren't 'formerly owned by' ---- they still ARE owned by ..



For sure the 'playing field levelled', and the govt of the RoC have 'shot themselves in the foot' .

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 15:32

Dear Dee,



if you are living on land / property owned by a GC noughts really changed.. I doubt you'll be 'kicked out' any time soon, but ultimately there will be a compromise and it will involve compo and / or possible reversion to leasehold - from freehold .



The FACT remains that a GC still owns the land / property until some ECHR approved remedy / political deal is agreed.



This ruling should focus minds and it will make many GCs wonder what the f**k President Liealotopulos was telling folk about a 'settlement based on EU norms' - he mislead his people when a deal COULD have been done, ( a better deal that any GC can expect, now) and by now many TR troops would have left, there'd have been a limit on TR nationals and the GC territory admin'd territory would include Morphou/ Guzelyurt(sp?) and Vorosha / Marash...

oldton


Joined: 25/05/2009
Posts: 12

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 15:50

I think after reading all this lot that it is good news ! Cheers everybody !!

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 16:34

Msg mmmm



I accept your view in the eyes of the international community yes many properties are still under the ownership of G/Cs who have pre 74 title deeds. I was speaking from a T/C prespective that recognises that these properties are now Turkish title after 74. This is out of respect for our past governments decision to issue Turkish title deeds. We have no choice in this mind set as this is what binds our community together. The belief that as a result of 74 the TRNC and all the land that it incompasses is Turkish. İf this mind set and belief was not apparent then no investment would take place on large amounts of land and many houses that belong to G/C would have laid idol and fallen into disrepair after 35 years. However many have been occpied by T/Cs and maintained with ther own financial investment it was only right that if T/C and others were making this commitment then they should have been issued with tiltle our lawful title. This is why we recognise.

Winslow.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 16:53

msg 53;

In the eyes of international law,there has been NO settlement between TCs and GCs since 1974.

Providing,WE accept that as a fact,the rest is "s**t talk".eg.my wiew,your wiew...

Partitionist(myself) or not, no one can stand against what is owned legaly by who.How the immovable property issue is solved is another matter.



Squatters rights is what springs to mind from your comments.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 18:16

Msg 54

You are right there is no settlement and as far as we as a turkish community and myself are concerned our title deeds are legally binding and the TRNC should be recognised by the international communıty. But we cannot ignor the fact that until the international community recognises us and our legitamacy these titles will only have a place here within the TRNC. That is why this discision is so important because it allows for a remedy via the (IPC) that we most importantly control and not the G/Cs or some foriegn entity. For all those claiments who wish to take this route eventually and are compensated they will withdraw thus finally leaving current owners with our title and possesion as the legally now recognised owners on the internationl stage.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 18:18

Con..

This will help our economy and instill confidence in future investment for the benefit of our people and is an important step to recognition. This ruling by ECHR for the first time recognises an official institution of the TRNC by an international institution and is truely a historic decision we must respect this Yorgozlu in our fight for recognition and the end to our unjust isolation. Believe me I share the same views as you whole heartedly.

Winslow.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 21:17

The only historic decision for me would be the day TRNC is recognised worldwide.

As far as ECHR's latest decision is concerned,it is just telling Cypriots to sort their problems WITHIN before going further.However, I too welcomed the decision as it would stop the oportunists!

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 23:54

Yorgozlu

This ruling by ECHR recognises an institution of the TRNC and in terms of what happened with the Annan plan Orams and CTA we must respect this in our fight for recognition it is significant. We need (FDI) and that only comes with confidence in the belief that investment by multı-nationals and individuals are safe from the possible wrath of other jurisdictions such as with the Orams. The new Karpas marina is a prime example of risk now they can move forward safe in the knowledge that the IPC is deemed as an appropriate domestic body for deciding the complex matters of property ownership in the island in terms of valuation and assessing financial compensation if a claiment appears.

Con...

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
06/03/2010 23:55

Con.

G/Cs will not be entitled to the benefits of development as that would be tantamount to unjust enrichment probably the land in its original state at todays market price within the TRNC. And they will no longer hold the upper hand in sabotaging investment with threats of legal redress through the EU courts with their retoric.

Yorgozlu its all gone quiet over there…lets see how they react in the coming weeks.



Winslow.

millzer


Joined: 12/04/2007
Posts: 978

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 02:19

winslow, message 58; "This ruling by ECHR recognises an institution of the TRNC "



I'm not sure that is correct! My understanding is that the ECHR recognises the IPC as an institution of Turkey, not "TRNC"

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 12:15

Mark thankyou for the clarification...well sort of lol.. ))))))

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 13:10

Msg Millzer

winslow, message 58; "This ruling by ECHR recognises an institution of the TRNC "

I'm not sure that is correct! My understanding is that the ECHR recognises the IPC as an institution of Turkey, not "TRNC"



The European Court of Human Rights ruling on Friday ruled that the Immovable Property Commission (2005) the (IPC) of the TRNC (KKTC) is a valid domestic judicial remedy whose jurisdiction extends to G/C. G/Cs will not be able to launch court cases against Turkey at the European court prior to seeking redress with the TRNC (IPC). The ruling is significant in the fact that for the first time a Turkish Cypriot commission has been recognized by Europe's top human rights court, legitimising this instuitıons the (IPCs) TRNCs international legitimacy. The İPC was devised so as to administer international law and remove pressure from the EU.



Con...

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 13:12

Con..

The TRNC authorities mandated the commission (the IPC) to examine applications under İnternational law and to decide on restitution, exchange or payment of compensation in appropriate cases. It consists of 5 / 7 members 2 of whom are foreign. İt also grants rights of appeals to the TRNC High Administrative Court and also to the ECHR.

Further more On March 5th see Demepoulos and Others v Turkey, the court agreed with Turkish propositions that G/C claiments claims should first be directed to the potential remedies available at the (IPC) TRNC where their cases had not yet been declared admissible.

For sure the provenance of the funds to pay compensation is obviously from Turkey. However this is a TRNC commision with the appointment of members of the IPC by the “TRNC” President.

İ hope this clarfies matters.

Winslow.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 13:16

re msg 58



Winslow



>>This ruling by ECHR recognises an institution of the TRNC <<



??



Can you tell us how you came to that conclusion?... the institution is a TURKISH remedy to a ECHR ruling... Could you please refer to the ruling and how 'TRNC' is referred to in inverted commas

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 16:35

Msg 58 mmm



‘’Can you tell us how you came to that conclusion?... the institution is a TURKISH remedy to a ECHR ruling... Could you please refer to the ruling and how 'TRNC' is referred to in inverted commas’’



I will dispense with quoting you the ruling as I am sure you have read it extensively. There are many points within the rulıng that lead me and many others to the conclusion I have outlined. The Immovable Property Commission was set up under the Immovable Property Law (number 67/2005) in accordance with the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights in the case of Xenides-Arestis v. Turkey. The purpose of this measure was to establish an effective domestic remedy for claims relating to abandoned properties in Northern Cyprus.



My conclusion from the above is that although not in inverted commas the main basis apart from the others ‘’The Court reiterated that an appropriate domestic body the IPC’’ (domestic) I take to mean the TRNC



Con...

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 16:37

Con..

It is the ECHR directing claimants to first seek compensation from the IPC as an effective remedy recognising its legitmacy within the Jurisdiction of the TRNC as a part of its state organ.



Also the RoC government and all political parties yesterday expressed their deep disappointment over the European Court of Human Rights’ decision to ‘’recognise the Immovable Property Commission (IPC) in the occupied areas as an effective domestic remedy of Turkey.

Said government spokesman Stefanos Stefanou. (Although they quote Turkey they would do).



Any agreed claims buy this instıution and claimants can only be conducted via a contractual obligation whereby the two parties argree to respect eachothers rights to compensation and ownership. Buy delivering up title deeds and recieveing compensation legimacey is invoked as the remedy has been enforced to the satisfaction of both parties.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 16:38

Con..



Claimants cannot accept compensation neither can the IPC accept pre74 title deeds unless this premiss exsists... Therefore for the (avoidance of any doubt) it can be no other way that the legimacy of this instuıton within the TRNC is invoked.



Winslow.

millzer


Joined: 12/04/2007
Posts: 978

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 18:46

winslow I think you are missing the point! ECHR is referring to the IPC (and the 'TRNC') as an organ controlled and as a part of TURKEY and not as a seperate (and recognised) state, much as I would like to see the TRNC recognised. A bit like the fact that Wales is a part of the UK and therefore is an EU member state because it as a part of the UK.

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 18:52

6 Ms



I think the ruling also states that if an applicant to the IPC wishes to appeal a decision then this done through the TRNC high administrative court before then taking it back to ECHR



As a court is an organ of a state then it would appear that ECHR have de jure recognised that a legal system independant of the RoC exists in the North

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 19:08

as usual mark displays his extensive knowledge of the property claims culture



and he is perfectly correct that nothing implies recognition of the trnc,

...it's only an accident of geography if the IPC is situated on the island



so that's it then? well, not quite



without my making assertions about posession and ownership thereof,

until and as when former greek cypriot properties are transferred,

(and none have ever been yet and aristophedes will never live in lapta, sorry!)

their market value as "greek cypriot" is minimal,

ie a former houselder could only expect a token payment when "selling" ownership,

whereas the actual resident might look forward to receiving a hundred grand or more



but mmmmmm already makes adequate provision for this tiresome contradiction:

in his much-touted but elusive cyprus security/land compromise or "reunification deal"

former gc occupants would surely expect to get hold of these properties in the future



or not as the case may be

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 19:30

Heres a link to the decision in full - http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?item=1&portal=hbkm&action=html&highlight=&sessionid=48263087&skin=hudoc-en

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 21:42

Msg Milzer

‘’an organ controlled and as a part of TURKEY’’

This is not about that it is about. The ECHRs veiw that this instiution of the TRNC is an autonomous domestically capabable organ with the ability to effect remedy and its recognition that ciaimants can also appeal to theTRNC High Administrative Court and also to the ECHR. This is the acceptance that they exsist. The TRNC has a democratically elected goverment and president who have been elected by the will of our people and it is the president who appoints the memebers of the IPC. The ECHR makes no reference to any adminastrative organ in Turkey to approach only domestically within the TRNC. Yes the provenance of the funds will eminate from Turkey but the amounts will be agreed by the members of the commıttee. I would also draw yourattention to the fact that Turkey grants us some 500m$ a year and allows the Government to adminster these funds. Why could not the same model be applied here in respect of the IPC.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 21:43

Con....

I am glad that you also would like to see our Island and T/C recognised. I do believe sincerely that this is recognition of an organ and important step towards that if it can be buılt on.



MSg 69

‘’it would appear that ECHR have de jure recognised that a legal system independant of the RoC exists in the North’’

Abosolutley correct you cannot direct claimants to the IPC and theTRNC High Administrative Court and deny its exsistence that would be hypocritical. İ am glad you agree this is just common sense. İt can be no other way.

Winslow.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 22:17

Msg Milzer



''A bit like the fact that Wales is a part of the UK and therefore is an EU member state because it as a part of the UK'''.



İ would like to just add you cannot draw this correlation as we do have a democratically elected governement by the will of the people with an autonomous parliament. Where as Wales does not it has devolution (National Assembly for Wales) if I am correct.

Winslow

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
07/03/2010 22:50

Wales is devolved but not as devolved as Scotland

sorry for this aside:-

Scotland may go for a referendum of independence if the salmond has his way next election

salmond also had the view that he was part of the celtic tiger economies ESI(Eire Scotland Iceland)



Iceland bankrupt Eire going that way scotland banks were bankrupt rbs bos

Most of the north & scotland employment is uk government dhss tax and other ministry staff

he ho mr salmond will the uk need those staff in a foreign country

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 01:00

The Judgment passed by the ECHR is indeed good news. I have said this on another thread. Similarly the judgment could not have possibly gone any other way. The IPC has shown itself to be a suitable local remedy.



Of corse the Orams judgment was important and that ownership precedent has now been set and must be accepted. Fridays ECHR judgment has reduced the risk of Orams type claim to TRNC title holders significantly.

There is far more monetary gain to be secured by an application to the IPC. Those displaced persons that select to wait for a comprehensive settlement face a very uncertain gamble. I predict a big increase in IPC applications. The silence after the Orams is deafening. Full marks to Turkey and TRNC for minimising t



Yes this judgment is indeed good news. Combined with Mr Talats forthcomming audience with Mrs Clinton, the TRNC is on a positive roll. I sense some real change comming this year. The GC side has almost exhausted its bag of tricks to erradicate the TRNC

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 01:26

wanderer



Most of Scotlands employment is not with DHSS and Tax offices. Working population of Scotland is about 2.4 million are you suggesting more than 1.2 million work for DHSS and Centre 1 Tax Office.



Bit like a Scot saying everyone is the South Of England is a banker or spiv.



Alex Salmond does not have the view that Scotland is part of the celtic tiger economy. Celtic tiger economy was a term applied to the Republic of Ireland alone.He has said in the past that Scotland has the qualities that could enable it to become another celtic economy, like Ireland, should it get independance.

The Scottish economy is part of the UK's at the moment.

Dont see the connection with Iceland ,while there are some celtic connections most people there consider themselves Norse .



RBS and BOS are international and did not nearly fail because they were Scottish based,same as Lehmans did not fail because they were American.The international banking system failed as a whole.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 02:52

reading the latest cyprus mail editorial on the echr decision,

this is a permanent setback for the anti-trnc campaign,

and a much-needed boost for the status of north cypriots

...since the court has now started referring to "the passage of time"

and "not wishing to disposess" any new set of individuals



with the relentless passing of the years,

always a ticking timebomb for would-be claimants

notwithstanding any particular rights and wrongs,

any property claim is bound to weaken over the succeeding generations,

as ex-residents fade away and documents are lost, their validity disputed

or are even subject to multiple historical interpretations



take eastern europe's experience for example, wherever borders changed

and stayed changed, here claimants have generally faced disappointment



it is the lot of genuine gc unfortunates that their obdurate leadership

has probably frittered away all chance of any worthwhile compromise

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 07:33

As I have said before, the most significant thing about this 'judgement' is that it would appear to wrest control away from ROC and their kangaroo court. They must have loved the idea that they were in total control and able to ignore natural justice and replace it with bluster and summary judgement.



If a case, having exhausted the IPC route, ends up before the ECJ it will be interesting to see what their take on this decision by the ECHR is...



My hope is that the IPC will become an effective remedy; i.e. be used and work, rather just exist and be largely ignored, and the cases will be settled out of court.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 09:58

If Turkey charged as responsible for paying out IPC claims, then surely Greece, who started the trouble with their 'Enosis' inspired military coup should pay out the displaced TC's.



However, it must be said that from gettting independence, RoC started systematically violating its own constitution; so, in light of this fact, should the RoC compensate the TC's?



Obviously, disaffected TC's should band together and press for their claims - 'Strike while the iron's hot!'



But, are they too apathetic to do so?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 11:27

Winslow,



re msg 65

>>My conclusion from the above is that although not in inverted commas the main basis apart from the others ‘’The Court reiterated that an appropriate domestic body the IPC’’ (domestic) I take to mean the TRNC <<



*You* might take it to mean that, but [once again - sighs ] the Judgement is PERFECTLY clear.. this is TURKEY's 'local remedy'.. ergo Turkey is held responsible ..



There is nothing open to misinterpretation .... Displaced GCs / Armenians, etc. are applying to *Turkey* ..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 16:10

Msg 81 mmmmmm

‘’Turkey is held responsible’’.



We have always knownTurkey has been unfairly held responsible. The intervention of 1974 was a direct response to eleven years of oppression and agression of Turkish Cypriots by Greek Cypriots. We have as you know constantly agrued that the‘Akritas’ plan and the massacres of 1963/64 were genocide And as such left Turkey no other choice as neither the US, UK, UN, nor anyone, other than Turkey eleven years later in1974 took effective action under the terms of guarantee to prevent enosis and the final chapter which would have been the demise of the Turkish Cypriots. Now I ask you what would you have done if it was your people? Holding us responsible is in our veiw a ‘cop out’ and a denial of the failings of the international community of the time to protect our people from the fate which we would have recieved.which I leave to your imagination. Mmmmm.

Con...

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 16:11

Con..



I know by accepting through the IPC is a recognition of the property rights of G/Cs but it will work both ways for that will be satisfactory.

As to the interpration ‘’YOU’’I think we will have to agree to disagree. But from our prespective I am not the only only.



Sunday, March 7, 2010

BARÇIN YİNANÇ

ISTANBUL - Hürriyet Daily News

‘’With an international court officially recognizing a Turkish Cypriot state institution on Friday’’



Todays Zaman

06 March 2010, Saturday

AYŞE KARABAT ANKARA

‘’The ruling is also significant in that for the first time a Turkish Cypriot commission has been recognized by Europe's top human rights court, boosting the international legitimacy of the KKTC’’. Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu.



Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 16:12

Con..

Cyprus Mail

By Alexia Saoulli Published on March 7, 2010

‘’THE government and all political parties yesterday expressed their deep disappointment over the European Court of Human Rights’ decision to recognise the Immovable Property Commission (IPC) in the occupied areas as an effective domestic remedy of Turkey. Note the word ‘’recognise’’ although they have no chioce but also to say’’ Turkey’’ they are in denial



These are the two prespectives we can therefore agree to disagree. For us and I don’t pretain to be a fan of the EU the fact that for the first time in our history we have finally won a ruling in our favour albeit the EU is something we thought we would never see.

Winslow.

Lincsman



Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 16:58

It seems that your friends on the "dark side" cyprus-forum see this as a reason to take all property compensation claims through the ROC courts.

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 17:56

Posts 27 & 28 & Mark (6ms)



Individuals can still claim through the courts in the south and if successful the current owner/occupiers will be in the same situation as the Orams.



However, most GCs do not want to return to their property and are therefore likely to use the IPC to get compensation. They cannot claim for trespass and to get it they must relinquish all former rights to the property. After the ECHR ruling that the IPC is an effective remedy, surely this is indirect recognition of TRNC title deeds.



Mark, the IPC will not return any property that is occupied or was purchased according to TRNC laws.



Irrespective of the wording/packaging of the ECHR ruling, the TRNC has achieved some recognition. The timing is interesting - nothing to do with the current talks and the imminent election of the TRNC president of course!!

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 18:49

Lincsman

''take all property compensation claims through the ROC courts''.

They can do that but the RoC court will have no chioce but to instruct them first to seek compensation from the IPC and Adminstrative Court as of the ruling. Only when this route is exhuasted can they apply to allernative instuitıtions namely RoC and ECHR.

Winslow.

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 19:32

having read the above I thank you all for the infor, I want to know if british investors have stopped buying in North cyprus and I see loads of ex pats selling , the market value seems the same and property for sale prices have remained the same as a year ago there are some who have decided to sell up to avoid future issues due to their property risk in the UK, just wondered if property investment for retirement is on hold until further notice or are people still coming here to retire regardless of investment risk, having mentioned Risk,are we in North Cyprus investments at risk or do you feel secure with all this news thanks

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 19:49

We have never felt at risk, political swings and roundabouts don't worry me and never have.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 19:51

Basheer and all.

As a result of the ruling investments on the TRNC side are much safer because if compensation agreements are agreed even at ECHR level it will still be the responsability of the IPC to adher and pay. In doing so assets in foriegn Juristictions are safer. The payment of the compensation at any level will annul any right to seek further recompense.

Winslow.

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 20:10

thanks Winslow even though I have been relaxed about the whole thing since the Oram's case there was in the back of my mind what if! however for some selling up seems what's happening from I see in the agents for sale properties,what came to my attention were (worded greek)homes for sale, seems they have decided to cut their losses and go back home regardless of the outcome but as for me from the above post and others I feel secure in this matter, does anyone have an idea when this settlement is going to happen and decision reached thanks

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 20:20

Dear Winslow



re msg 82



Thanks for your response..



It *is* clear you also read the ECHR ruling so WHY you waste you time arguing what is defined is a mystery to me.



You clearly need 'pinning down' so WHO is 'the government' in the context of the respondent in this case, which brought about the ruling... ?



Answer : TURKEY...

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 21:51

Msg mmmmmm 92

Thank you also for your response mmmm.. your posts always make valid points..

Yes you are right ..Turkey as the cases were brought againts Turkey. But the ground the ECHR has referred the claiments in the first instance to the IPC and The High Administrative Court of the TRNC. For us T/Cs this is recognition from our prespective. So lets just say both our prespective are correct. We as T/Cs interpretate in this way. As T/Cs We must buıld on this now. That does not mean gloat hopefully in the next few years it will strengten our hand towards some form of recognition. İt will depend on if this instuition can show itself to be an effective remedy in the context of the property issue. İf so it will inhance our fight to end the unjust isolation that we suffer.

Winslow.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 21:54

Should read

''but on the ground who is''

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 22:41

winslow;

Are you a TC?

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
08/03/2010 23:19

Yes

Yorgozlu I am.

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
09/03/2010

Winslow

Being dyslexic I think the penny's just dropped does your name read Win Slow but sure ?

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 00:13

Wanderer Msg 97



Winslow wanderer you spelt it correct firstly.

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 01:51

Sorry Winslow no offence meant

Your comments on this have been spot on regarding this post

This verdict may not be the end but the beginning of the end of of the embargoes against the TRNC

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 08:23

Msg Wanderer

No offence taken wanderer..of course you are hopefully absolutely correct. As T/Cs and many others who live here this is what we hope for. I am also relieved for many of the ex-pat and others who have invested much of their live savings through many years of hard work to purchase their retirement homes here in the TRNC. This ruling alleviates them of the burden of having to personally compensate G/Cs for the loss of their properties after 74 and also sets precedence for T/Cs to use in their claims against the RoC for the return or compensation of properties that they lost in 74. İt would not be surprising if we witness some form of identical institution being formed in the RoC to meet the claims of T/Cs. All who claim will have to be realistic as claims it could take many years to investigate the authenticity of the claim. We also have to be realistic regarding the embargoes they will not be lifted overnight.

Con...

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 08:24

Con..



It will still take many years perhaps and the impact if it occurs which I sincerely hope it will, will be gradual as FDI impacts on the economy. This is a step in the right direction.

Winslow.

professoregit


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 381

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 09:10

Msg 86 "Individuals can still claim through the courts in the south and if successful the current owners/occupiers will be in the same situation as the Orams"



Would like some clarification on this very important point. In my view, going via the south side

judicial system would obviously be a formality but any ruling would then have to be enforced by

the domicile EU country. In such case, is said EU country not bound by this ruling to refer the case

to the IPC?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 10:01

Dear Prof



re msg 102



The Apostolides v Orams cases was about damages for continued trespass - as well as an unenforcible order to demolish



In theory, any respondent in a future case should offer the IPC as a defence [ i.e. why am I here as there is a prescribed route ?]



I have long said that this ECHR ruling would be FAR more important than the Orams' and that the 'rump' RoC govts did NOT want/ encourage Mr Apostolides ..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 11:22

Msg mmmmmm

Just to let you know you have probably seen this if you have not...



Attorney General on Cyprus ECHR ruling

FAMAGUSTA GAZETTE 09.MAR.10

Cyprus Attorney General Petros Clerides has described as a “negative development” a decision by the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), which recognises the self-styled immovable property commission (IPC), in Turkish occupied Cyprus, from a legal point of view as well as from a political one.



Msg professoregit

I will post later on your question with my opinion it will take time because it is complicated.

Winslow.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 11:45

After Orams the pendulum has swung the other way. This is a very significant judgement for the following reasons:

1.So far the GC side argued that the GC owner of the land in the north must have the final say and is not obliged to accept compensation or accept another land in exchange. Now ECHR says that compensation and exchange are also acceptable remedies and recognized the rights of people who have been using it for years or have developed it i.e. built on it. So this decision will allow Christofias to change his position and thus progres on the lines suggested by the TC side will be possible.



2. GCs will be very reluctant to have another Orams type case because it is likely to backfire on them this time round. It will inevitably end up at ECJ again and this time they are most likely to take into account the ruling of ECHR and not accept to enforce ROC courts decisions in other EU countries. They will stand no chance of success in this respect.



ctd.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 11:51

ctd.

3. The GCs will have to cooperate with the IPC in regard with their decisions to offer exchange i.e. give the GCs land in the south that previously belonged to TCs. In this respect, any claim by TCs in the ROC courts will have to be checked by IPC to see if exchange land was given to that TC in the north. So cooperation is essential, otherwise the GCs will find themselves in a position of having to pay compensation and yet the same land offered to a GC claimant as an exchange option.

ismet

McSteviet



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1089

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 14:47

So does any of this give the Orams any room to have their situation reassessed?



Seems unfair if they havn't?



Mc

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 17:41

Msg professorgeit Mcstevit and others.

Msg 86 "Individuals can still claim through the courts in the south’’ and Orams.



Professorgeit I am no expert this is only my opinion to your question.



Firstly the ruling of Friday 5th March is explicit ‘’That the Immovable Property Commission (2005) the (IPC) of the TRNC (KKTC) is a valid domestic judicial remedy whose jurisdiction extends to G/C.



1.All claimants must now seek redress with the TRNC (IPC) first prior to seeking at any other level.

2.All instuitutions including RoC UK and European court will have no allternative if G/Cs attempt to bypass the IPC but to refer all claimants back to the IPC and only if agreement cannot be reached will claims be registered listed and able to progress ultimatley to the EU.

3. G/Cs will have to show why the amount of compensation or unwillingness to accept compensation is deterimental to their individual circumstance.



Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 17:43

Con..



4. The IPC would have to probably dispatch it own legal team to show why they believe their offer should surfice based on examples of others that they have reached agreement with in simaliar circumstances.

5.İt will then be left ultimately to the EU to make the final judgement in each individaul case of this nature. As each agreement is reached it serves to strenghten the hand of the IPC with regards any such cases. Alternatively there is also the option to wait for a political solution if one arises.



Orams

İt would be important to explore in the case of the Orams possible differing scenarios as this seems to be a frequently asked question.

Firstly I say this sadly but at present I do not believe it will impact on their individual case as it stands based on the ECJ opinion of 28th April 2009. The UK Court of Appeal decided to enforce the judgment of Mr Meletis Apostolides secured at The ECJ.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 17:44

Con..

This judgment preceded 5th March ruling. The Orams at present are locked in the process of enforcement and must go through the procedure laid out by the Judgment of the court otherwise they will be held in contempt as per their ruling as there is Mr Meletis Apostolides to consider as the aggrieved party. He has a right to compensation after his securing this judgment against the Orams as the possessor’s pre-1974 and rights to ownership.



Orams what to do?

1. In my opinion must seek in a sense to go through the back door entering into evidence as they have no right to personal right to appeal. During and at their hearings regarding their ability to comply with the Apostolides judgment that has been secured against them. Their legal team must really fight and present an argument such as..

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 17:46

Con..

as ’’5th March Judgment was not available to the court at the time of the Apostolides ruling and is new evidence which if had been available at the time would have had a direct bearing on the judgment of the court’’ if the court accepts this into evidence as new then it will be sent back via the court to the Appeals Court and the Orams are home free so to speak.



2.İf not then Mr Apostolides must have a change of heart and waive his rights to the judgment and apply directly to the IPC I doubt this very much as he most definitely will argue his rights having secured the Judgment.



3.İf all else fails the Orams can go through the motions and once completed the way is open for themselves to apply to the IPC for compensation as an exceptional circumstance having been burdened with having to compensate Mr Apostolides as a result of the 5th of March ruling now being the accepted route it should have been the responsibility of the IPC.



Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
09/03/2010 17:47

Con..

They would have a good chance as Mr Apostolides would not be able to make a further claim having already secured his judgment and the return of his property and had it not been for the Orams it would have been left to the IPC to compensate Mr Apostolides. Therefore the Orams should be recompensed. İt would also be used as an example that if any other Orams style cases are listed purchasers that have to go through the same will feel confident that they will also ultimately be compensated.

Winslow.

professoregit


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 381

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 07:27

Thank you Winslow. I'm sure many people have been thinking along these lines but as per usual, you have been objective and concise in your well laid out opinion. I am also of the opinion that the judgement is pretty clear therefore, unless someone can come up with a counter arguement, the bottom line is - NO MORE ORAMS CASES.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 08:21

Msg Professoregit



Yes no more Orams.. they must go IPC first. Even if they succeed it will be argued the IPC must ultımately foot the bill. I estimate cases at IPC level to take between 2 to 7 years deepending on complications and then ECHR.

Winslow

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 08:53

Who, actually, did foot the Orams' legal bill, and if they went to the IPC would compensation also include their not inconsiderable legal expenses?

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 09:21

Tenakoutou

There has been much talk of who has is or will foot the expenses. I have myself no İdea ..only the Orams and their legals know the answer to that. Whats important is they continue the fight ...by hook or by crook. There is nothing to stop them if they do themselves end up having to try the IPC route from claiming legal fees. İt will be an IPC decision as to whether to award. İf the Orams can have it deemed part of the unfair burden inflicted on them by the Apostolides ruling in the context of the property issue of the TRNC prior to the ruling of 5th March.

Winslow

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 13:14

Looking at this from another angle, won't the value of TRNC property other than Turkish Title start to close the gap now?

It would seem that since this latest ECHR/IPC ruling, "refugee" GCs will apply to the IPC regarding "their" property in the North. The IPC is unlikely to "evict" the present occupier and it will be the IPC that will pay compensation to the GC, not the present occupier.

This effectively gives TMD and "exchange" land an almost equal level of protection that TT land currently enjoys.

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 13:28

wwwcyprus-mail.com to day article says property issues will be resolved by negotiations not by court, says the President.

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 13:29

www.cyprus-mail.com

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 14:42

Sauce for the Goose?



"Government spokesman Stefanos Stefanou said the court should have taken into consideration the ongoing negotiations between the two sides on the island.

Exactly what the TRNC said at the time of the Orams case but believe that Mr A's team argued that the political situation could not be taken into account on a judgement deciding a matter of legal enforcement.



“Considering that we are in negotiations … the court should have been more careful and taken this fact into consideration,” Stefanou said."

The court should have been more careful now that a decision is not to your liking?,dont remember these words about "negotiations" being spoken after the Orams decision. All I read, was of dancing in the streets and the emphasis being more on how the TRNC would have to concede more at the table,



It might be asked, why is the ROC so upset that is has been forced to use negotiations to agree a settlement, instead of legal means to force one?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 14:50

Vaughan, one other alternative is that Turkey could hold the title deeds and lease back to the Brits who thought they were buying freehold. They could use that ploy to persuade Brits to fork out some of the compensation in exchange for a clean title. There's plenty of twists and turns left yet.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 19:46

Msg Girne 29

Absolutely correct...Niether do I remember the words about "negotiations" being spoken after the Orams decision.

To all others on this tread. During all this there was this also...if any one noticed.



Turkish Cypriot daily alleges that the UN is considering of punishing the Greek Cypriots and of withdrawing the position for a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation, if the negotiations come to a dead-end again

Under the title Warning for the day after, Turkish Cypriot daily Kibrisli newspaper (08.03.10) reports that UN officials and the international community believe that serious developments could be secured and a result could be achieved in the Cyprus talks in April and warn that nothing will be the same in case this opportunity is also lost. The paper writes, inter alia, the following;

The sources, which stressed the unwillingness of the Greek Cypriots on the issue of the negotiations and the solution, note that if the negotiations come to a dead-end again.



Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 19:48

Con..



The UN is considering of withdrawing from the table the position for a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation. The diplomatic sources are drawing the attention to the fact that the position expressed by Alvaro de Soto that the Turkish and Greek Cypriots do not want a federal solution will be proved to be right and that the launching of new solution quests for Cyprus will be inevitable after the negotiations enter into an impasse. Warnings are made that after the negotiations enter into an impasse the lifting of the isolations and the options of the integration of north Cyprus with Turkey or the recognition will come onto the agenda.Moreover, the UN officials started saying that in case of an impasse, the withdrawal of the soldiers of the Peace Force is on the agenda. If the negotiations enter again into an impasse, the Greek Cypriots will be forced to pay the price of the non-solution this time.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 19:50

Con..



All these developments show the concrete results of the pro-solution policy followed by Turkey and Talat in the negotiating process and register a great political success.

Winslow.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 20:30

Thankyou winslow for all your opinion, it is always a pleasure to read what you have to say, put over very well.



Thanks to Elko2, both have so much knowledge on these issues.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 20:35

Also thanks to mmmmmmmm, as I can now read your posts without going giddy, all those>>>>>>> used to make my eyes crossed......

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 21:18

Dizzydukes..

Thank you dizzycows I always try to give a balanced view. I am flattered by yours and others comments. The reason for the really honestly limited knowledge that I have in my mind is this is our home our people we must protect this for our children as best we can so I speak from the integrity of my heart.



Msg Vaugan and malshank



‘’This effectively gives TMD and "exchange" land an almost equal level of protection that TT land currently enjoys’’. ‘’Turkey could hold the title deeds and lease back to the Brits’’

Yes it does effectively give an equal level of protection there was never ever a chance that any Orams style Judgment could ever be enforced here and if there was its permanately buried now.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 21:19

con..

As to value as it stands the TRNC is still unrecognised values should equalise as confidence grows intially within the TRNC and news spreads it will still be at a premium to the RoC and the rest of the med. İf and when some form of recognition is gained then as a result of FDI and market forces over time this will drive prices higher. I cannot see Turkey holding title deeds and leasing back within the context of finacial gain. I my self wonder what remedy the IPC are going to come up with once the IPC have compensated the G/Cs who have accepted. How the IPC will proceed at this point needs considering.

Winslow

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 21:41

Dear Winslow



As we know Turkey is providing the local remedy and paying out compo - would you agree that this makes it all the more likely that TR would like to encourage a political solution?

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 22:50

Dear mmmmm



‘’As we know Turkey is providing the local remedy and paying out compo - would you agree that this makes it all the more likely that TR would like to encourage a political solution?



Yes Turkey does genuinely want a solution it is most definately being dictated by the policies that were formulated between Gul,Erdogan and especially Davidoglu who is the main driving force and architect of many these iniatives ‘zero’ the rising star of the AKP so to speak. US magazine ‘’Foreign Policy’’, lists Turkish FM as 'new Kissinger' Ahmet Davutoğlu as one of four world figures in its “Kissingers” list. (Washington Post-Newsweek group). After the the adoption of the resolution of Armenians’ claims of genocide by the Foreign Affairs Committee of the U S House of Representatives Turkey needs to show any single example of its success in its ‘’zero problem with neigbours policy’’

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 22:51

Con..



İn the context of the TRNC what type of political solution that is the question which none of us really have a crystal ball to predict it is still to early to say. İt just seems to be changing by the minute.. will it... won’t it.... I think by the end of the year as certain events take place we will have a clearer indication. We will have to wait and see.

Winslow

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
10/03/2010 23:43

The Cypriots still have to vote on any solution proposal... Will it be palatable to both GC & TCs... that's going to be the acid test.

millzer


Joined: 12/04/2007
Posts: 978

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 00:25

Will be interesting to see if the TC proposals re property at the talks differ in any way from the basic way in which the IPC will deal with any property claims from Greek Cypriots.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 00:29

Dear Winslow



Davidoglu as a rsing star..



was the use of Kissinger - you must surely know he is the Bete noir - of GCs - deliberate ???!!!

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 01:34

Dear mmmm



Every single Turk is a ''dark beast'' Bete noir ın the eyes of the GCs. The point is that kissınger was responsible for U S foreign policy, he halted the Vietnam War, Paris Peace Accords, détente with the USSR & China. Also a controversial figure but a political scientist who won the Nobel Peace Prize.

Kissinger could'nt please everyone but still had an illustreous career. For Ahmet Davutoğlu to be thougth of in the same vain so to speak is an achievement. He still has a lot to do and it is very early days for him. Whether or not the G/Cs view him that way or not I do not know they will have to live with it. He has the respect now of many foriegn diplomats. A sort of new acceptable face of Turkey. Where once in the past there was nobody who could translay any acceptable foreign policy argument in a confident and articulate manner.

Winslow

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 13:52

Hi Winslow,



I think you also know that 'our Henry' was the guy behind encouraging the Greek Military Junta to organise a coup - implying US 'support' whilst also knowing that the Turks had the 'consent' to invade Cyprus and even showed and agreed how much territory would be taken..



When The British looked like they would stop the TR invasion/ peace movement in 74 - by blockading - as had been done before - to 'calm things down' - Mr Callaghan got a phone call suggesting the Royal Naval withdrew....



I hope Mr



Mr Kissinger referred to Archbishop Makarios as a "Commie in a Cassock" ... but I guess you knew all this ;)



Ironic, don't you think, that a guy awarded a prize for peace should be informed in a process that involved a large number of innocent folk dying and a huge cover up that only our Grandchildren can read about...



I hope you will be more careful about role models for Mr Davutoğlu :D

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 15:33

mmmmmm



Have to agree with you on this one.Dont know how the man ever got the Peace Prize.





Wikipedia,

Kissinger quote on destabilising Chile "the issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves" and "I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go Communist due to the irresponsibility of its people."



Thought the same about Argentinian electorate when ordering CIA to help army to overthrow elected Peron

Obviously the democratic will of the people is not one of his favourites , so hardly a role model we need when tryng to go forward in Cyprus.



Secretly bombing Cambodia and allowing the Khmer Rouge to commit genocide ,another of his fights for peace!.





Man is a war criminal, pure and simple.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 20:51

Hello mmmm & Girne 29



I think I have been misunderstood or I failed to explain properly. I was not implying Kissinger should be Ahmet Davutoğlu role model he has his own character and beliefs to be sure. Firstly I did say Kissinger was a ‘’controversial figure’’. İt was the (Washington Post-Newsweek group) who awarded him this comparison. The magazine holds a rıght wing neo-con prospective. Kissinger to this element is still held in high asteem and an icon for his fight against the USAs paranoia of communisam ‘’the demon of its time’’ as is the war on terror in present today US. I was merely saying that Kissinger for his era was responsible for formulating foreign policy and very active as you have both pointed out in persuing those policies which do contrast quiet rightly with how he won the peace prize.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 20:52

Con..

The ‘’achivement’’ is Ahmet Davutoğlu is being recognised in many diplomatic circles even by these and others in foriegn relations. Davutoğlu will not be able to please everybody but history will judge his ‘’zero policies’’ as it has judged Kissinger ‘’realpolik’’.

About Makarios a believer in enosis he argued for the principle of self-determination to be applied to Cyprus. Makarios had links with EOKA leader George Grivas but denied any involvement in violence by EOKA. Yes it is true Kissinger was instrumental and cunning in Persuading Ioannidis to organise the 1974 coup to overthrow Makarios and Grivas who were a communist menace in the making in Kissingers view. Yes and then he prompted Turkey an allie of the US to intervene and partition Cyprus. Which in response led to the downfall of the Greek Junta democracy restored to Greece and communists out of Cyprus a master stroke in the eyes of the neo-cons.

Winslow

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 21:48

we have wandered very far from the original thread...

"news flash re property"

to be lured into the comfortable but distant territory of "times past"



it has been suggested that yearning for an imaginery clear-cut past

disguises a most confusing present-day reality:

how fortunate then that the echr local remedy judgement,

is so clear-cut in favour of a rational future for north cyprus



andre

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
12/03/2010 11:27

Dear andre 514

‘’distant territory of’’ "times past"

Kissinger and Markarious are relative to this thread because it was their policies that led to the intervention of Turkey resulting in partition and the involvement of the ECHR ın present day. İf 74 did not occur we would not be on this forum having this discussion and the ECHR discision would not exsist.



Msg to all ECHR

For G/Cs who lost properties and businesses in 74 property negotiations “Who gets their property back, who gets another property in exchange, who gets compensation is what matters to them. The ECHR found acceptable the mechanism (IPC) established by the TRNC where G/C refugees can sue for the return of their property or compensation for it. ECHR recommended formula as this is what people are also wondering I have been informed will be something like this.

Con...

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
12/03/2010 11:29

Con..Formula for compensation.



1.İt would be valued on the day of the occupation.(74)



2.The the loss of any income over time.



3.The increase in value of the land to present day.(2010)



4.İf claimants had been awarded property of a T/Cs in RoC the value of the land or income would be deducted from the sum of the compensation.



5.The ECHR also recommended that G/Cs apply for a settlement or to wait for a political solution.

The decision by the ECHR in Strasbourg it is hoped will speed up the negotiation. Instead of G/Cs taking cases straight to Strasbourg, G/C must first apply to the IPC which has the power to restore property or compensation.

I hope this is of help.



Winslow.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
12/03/2010 21:21

winslow,



as regards your (possibly accurate) comments about black mak and killinger:

"it was their policies" etc, but please let's look behind and beyond as it were!



behind...

if it wasn't this particular pair wouldn't it have been two other "names"

acting in the interests of the usa elite and greek cypriot nationalism?



beyond...

remember, it is now safe to invest in north cyprus again!

reading our postings in late january there seemed every inducement to jump in the canal

now the worst that can happen is gc chancers get ensnared with the ipc for many a year,

and it's poor old turkey that may in the end have to pay them off



good news or not young man?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
13/03/2010 00:31

Of course I think this is all nonsense, given this decision, they would never end up in ECHR now, they might end up at the ECJ if the IPC route did not lead to a satisfactory settlement in the view of the claimant. But they would have to be sure that the ECJ costs would not fall to them should the judgement of the ECJ not improve the previously tabled offer.



It is established legal precedent that turning down an offer later judged to have been fair and reasonable makes the claimant liable for additional costs of both parties... this could easily be many times the value of the property involved.



So settle if the IPC makes a good offer or risk it all... do the math!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
13/03/2010 03:47

...erm, so it's good news for us or not?



really, this all seems terribly hard work!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
13/03/2010 09:55

The 'proof will be in the pudding' - i.e., will 'Ech' property sales and values escalate now that the 'trespass' and 'compensation from UK assets' factors are reported to be now removed from the risk of purchase?



However, the high risk factor still remains due to the apparent reticence of the government to implement the necessary safeguards vital towards 'buyer assurity'.

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
13/03/2010 11:21

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/cyprus/government-gets-legal-opinion-echr-ruling/20100313

roc seeks legal opinion re 8 pending cases

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
13/03/2010 13:18

Msg andre 514

’’good news or not young man’’? Well rationally balanced my opinion

The ECHR has just done the biggist U turn in its history regarding the property issue in the TRNC. In the Loizidou case, the court found in favour and instructed Turkey to pay compensation of $1 million to Ms. Loizidou, indicating this compensation was’nt awarded for the property but for denial of ownership and useage Loizidou still retains legal ownership. In this case 5th March the ECHR rules there is nothing wrong in GCs losing their property in exchange for compensation by the IPC. A juxtapositon in the two judgments that cannot simultaneously be legally correct an anomaly.

Theories as to why this switch are; Its allternative case workload; the 1,500 GCs pending cases; by this Judgement all these cases in The TRNC were struct out releiving the workload;



Con...

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
13/03/2010 13:19

Con..

the GCs rejection of the Annan plan they were punished and finally to stop GCs using the ECHR as a platform to air their grevancies on a national level.

My interpation is the problem cannot be resolved by international pressure it must be in negotiations otherwise there may be permanant partition which the RoC do not want they will get nothing and the TRNC will have an end to isolation. The UN is considering withdrawing if the negotiations enter into an impasse. Warnings are made the options of integration of TRNC with Turkey or the recognition will come onto the agenda and withdrawal of the the Peace Force. If the negotiations enter again into an impasse, the Greek Cypriots will be forced to pay the price of the non-solution this time. The IPC is a positive step for G/Cs as it recognises GCs property rights and a move forward in negotiations if the RoC accept this.

Con...

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
13/03/2010 13:20

Con...

Msg Groucho



‘’be sure that the ECJ costs would not fall to them should the judgement of the ECJ not improve the previously tabled offer. So settle if the IPC makes a good offer or risk it all... do the math!



I suppose that will have to be an individual discision of every G/C and T/C who is claiming compensation or restitution. We cannot put ourselves in these peoples shoes as we are not cliamants it is not our properties at stake. For sure they will have to take into account costs and time each indivıdual will ‘’yes’’ have to do their own personal maths.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
13/03/2010 13:22

Con..Msg Tenakoutou

'Ech' property sales and values escalate now that the 'trespass' and 'compensation from UK assets'



Value as it stands the TRNC is still unrecognised values should equalise as confidence grows within the TRNC and news spreads. When some form of recognition is gained then we should see an influx of FDI over time this will augment prices.



‘’Rrisk factor still remains due to the apparent reticence of the government'.



Yes alot of work still needs to be done regards effective legislation it does need it.



Msg Wanderer

''Roc seeks legal opinion re 8 pending cases''



They would say that they have no choice. Their people are dismayed at the result they have never had anything like this after 74 it is unrelatable to them they need direction from their leadership now as they feel agrevied. For us it is the first time and has totally changed the landscape of negotiations.



Winslow.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
14/03/2010 11:23

Winslow/Msg 151: 'Yes alot of work still needs to be done regards effective legislation it does need it.'



That must rate as 'The Euphemism of 2010'!



The government obviously must know so, too, but daren't risk 'upsetting the apple cart'.

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
14/03/2010 13:38

Tenakoutou Msg



İ think everyone is aware that there is a problem with regards legislation in the construction industry. İt is not only the ex-pat community in the north and south that have had problems but also T/Cs here. To my mind this all came about because of the initial expolsions in the property boom triggered in prıor anticipation of the Anna plan. This moved the industry faster than legislation. More importantly the government has to recognise that changes in technology, business practices and lifestyles have to be addressed by laws. Social change as a consequence of time and globalisation throws up new challenges for societies and governments its just the way it is. Therefore governments and society have to address these changes. Remember also that.. law is a social construct... and then brought before parliament. As a consequence of the needs and beliefs of the people and not as a result of the few in power to serve their own interests.

Winslow.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
14/03/2010 20:53

hmmm...



granted that property buyers from the uk

are still nursing their wounds from the both credit crunch and all the scams,

the market almost everywhere to the "south" of europe is pretty much dead



but yes, judging by how upset gc opinion seems to be over this decision,

it seems most likely to be very good news for north cyprus in the long run



whether the un would dare withdraw their peacekeepers I wouldn't know

but would they leave the darksiders to be supervised by the turkish army?

I wonder!



it would be interesting to hear more from mark about possible outcomes,

since only he's pointed out for months how crucial the echr/ipc decision would be

...if he can tear himself away from reminiscencing that is



andre

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
15/03/2010 10:19

Msg 153: 'As a consequence of the needs and beliefs of the people and not as a result of the few in power to serve their own interests.' Winslow.



So, as a TC, no doubt with relatives, or friends, in 'high places', do you really believe that there is adequate political, or social, will in any party, or government, to act for the benefit of the whole country, or are most of them so selfish that they intend to allow the 'status quo' of unethical sharp practices and laws to drift on?



Are they incapable of realising that they need, urgently and desperately, to woo potential overseas homebuyers and investors?



The distribution of glossy brochures and magazines containing self-congratulary 'awards' simply is not enough!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
15/03/2010 10:25

Msg 155: Whoops - that should have been spelled 'self-congratulatory' - pardonnez-moi!

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
15/03/2010 16:14

Dear Tenakoutou

Well what can I say that is always the way. You will always have individuals within governments and institutions or on the periferies that will expliot the system one way or another it does occur here and elsewhere. For instance look at the UK the expenses fiasco where three British Labour MPs and a Conservative peer are facing criminal charges over their alleged false expenses claims and lord Ascroft deputy chairman of conservative party where Ashcroft need only be a "long-term resident" a deal struck allowing Ashcroft non-domiciled status for tax purposes avoiding millions of pounds in UK income tax where the majority have to pay for all of this. Expenses are in principal abuse of power in a positon of trust and Ascroft in his case non declaration. I am sure he would love the current system to continue and their are probably many more that we don’t know about that don’t want change or their personal and financial comfort zones will be iradicated.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
15/03/2010 16:15

Con..

But one must never fall into the trap of sterotyping every body as a result of the few. Many people have moral and ethical standards here and in the Uk and do try their best for the good of the electorate and their own conscience. They will not abuse the system but in instances can be powerlees to do things or effect change. As the system strains then that is where the will of the people has to play its part. Although it can be a slow process and reliant on transparancey it eventually overides the desires of the few. This context can be applied in all even in the ECHR recent decision as a result of the slow negotiations 35 years and the hole melting pot of past and recent legal issues, time and resolutions something had to give in the end and no doubt in the future there will be more.

Con..

winslow


Joined: 09/04/2009
Posts: 332

Message Posted:
15/03/2010 16:16

Con..

As for individuals and large investors my only argument can be that each investment or descision has to be taken on its own merits by each individual or corporation based on their research and willingness to invest. Every investmest large or small is a risk you have to have your wits about you. There are people and others who will also in the private sector who will and try to expliot. İts just a dog eat dog world at times you cannot trust anyone and if you do from a bussines point you must hold all the cards otherwise your house of cards can come tumbling down. You have to be careful where ever you invest or what ever you invest into and who you deal with. The ECHR will have a positive influence on investment in the TRNC but will also open up new oppotunities for again the desires of the few who will want to expliot its all relative.

Winslow