My recent experience with Kibtek

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 17:15

My son complained that the voltage in his house began shooting up to 320-350 volts for a few seconds and then back to normal. He found out that the whole apartment experienced the same problem and one had her tv set break down.

I complained to Kibtek and explained that the common neutral connection was loose or bad. The repair team went there three times and reported back that everything is fine and there must be something wrong with my wiring!!



The poor young graduate engineer in charge of the team who is afraid to get up from his desk agreed to let me go with the team. I let them check everything and they said that everything is fine, there is no fault. It was my turn to intervene. I asked them to unlock the connection box again and I got the torch from them to have a good look at the neutral connection. I could see small drops of molten metal frozen on the wire. there it was. I got them to touch the wire and we could here the arcing noise. I left them at that point and let them get on with the tightening up of the screws.

ismet

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 17:19

Blinking heck Elko2 is there no end to your talents, ... think we need you in GB to sort out BT!.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 17:26

Fortunately my son was using a voltage regulator which cut off the output when it exceeded 250 volts so his expensive electronic equipment were protected but even so the fridge, the microwave etc. were all under risk. Now I bought him a small programmable relay which operates when the voltage goes outside set limits and will cause the earth fault to trip and cut off the supply to the whole house. It is simply plugged into any socket of the house. Simple. I do not know how much the programmable relay costs because I have not paid for it yet. It should be well under 100 TL. I hope!!

ismet

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 18:29

Where did you buy this regulator please Elko2, it is something that most of us could do with as the power surges are quite regular in NC....

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 19:16

Dizzycows,

As we say in Turkish, even the deaf sultan in Egypt heard about it, how come you did not?



You can protect your electronic equipment by using individual small regulators but if you want to protect the whole house, you have to install a larger one for the whole house. You can buy one from Tektan or get Vaughan to obtain and install one for you.

See http://www.elkocyprus.com

ismet

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 19:51

Gladys - This is Ismet's proffesion and there is not much chance of anyone in Cyprus (either side) knowing more than him.



He imports voltage regulation and can advise you on what will best protect you, your home and possesions. go to his web site http://www.elkocyprus.com to learn more.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 19:59

Thanks Elko and flightholiday, would want one to protect all the house not just individual surge for each peice of equip,



will look at the web later.....

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 20:12

Ismet

Forget your voltage surges, when are you going to 'spark' off your 'electric' personality and 'arc' yourself by 'amp'lifing the merits of your Presidency, 'watt' is the delay?!!!



Richard

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 20:52

Richard,

I am 100% behind Talat.

ismet

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 21:32

ismet

I am confused. The Neutral connection is the reference for the live AC feed (single phase or 3 phase), without a Neutral connection then you have no power. If you have an intermittent Neutral connection then your power is either on or off and I am not quite sure where 320/350 volts comes into it. The Neutral should be as close as possible to physical earth but depending on where the Neutral is bonded in the power distribution system then you will always have a small voltage differential between Neutral and Earth. If in fact your son has measured these voltages over a few seconds firstly how did he measure it? It takes expensive equipment to capture short term voltage surges accurately.

AJ

catalkoykid


Joined: 15/02/2009
Posts: 1190

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 21:39

wow gosh over to you ismet,i of course new all the above but didn't want to say anything lol

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 21:54

msg 10

AJ

Thanks for the questions. I am sure many may have same questions in their minds. Here we go:



As you know the frequency of our supply is 50 Hertz i.e. it is an alternating current going positive and then negative 50 times in a second. If we consider one whole cycle as 360 degrees, as the voltage in one phase begins to rise, the second phase is 120 degrees behind and the third phase 240 degrees behind. Thus the three phases go up and down smoothly but spread in time equally.



Now comes the crunch. The neutral wire is kept as close to earth (zero) as possible and for all intents and purposes let us say it is kept at zero. The effective voltage between each phase and the neutral is nominally 240 volts but the voltage between two phases is 415 volts. I will explain this difference more fully if anybody is interested.



Suppose my house is connected between the Red phase and the Neutral and suppose your house next door is connected between the yellow phase and the

ctd.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 21:59

neutral. Now imagine our neutrals are connected but its broken to the main neutral. As a result your house and my house will be connected in series between the Red and the Yellow phases. Thus your house and my house will share the 415 volts but not equally. If you have a heavy load and I have a light load, you may get 50 volts and I will get 365 volts to complete the 415 volts. In such a situation the neutral will not stay at zero but it will be floating and will aproach the phase with the heavier load.



I hope I could explain it. with no means of having drawings it is not so easy to make it very clear. How did you find it?

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 22:04

Oh I forgot about the measurement of surges. Yes you are right, you need expensive eqwuipment to measure very short surges like recording by computer or in the old days we used to have ultra violet recorders with sensitive paper, so we could record about one metre long of paper in one second. so surges lasting micro or milliseconds are recorded like that but here I am talking about surges lasting as long as 2-3 seconds and that is enough to read the digital voltmeter without any difficulty. Apart from that the florescent lamps were making great noise (the ballasts going into saturation).

ismet

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 22:19

ismet

' Now imagine our neutrals are connected but its broken to the main neutral.'



OK I understand the scenario but individual neutrals are not connected to each other, it is the same as earth connections, each consumer has separate earth and neutral connections to the Grid.

Ismet I think I am missing something here.

AJ

Tootie


Joined: 28/08/2008
Posts: 2037

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 22:19

Bugger,

Once again ismet you beat me to it. I was just about to say the same thing.... the ballasts going into saturation



Tootie

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 22:31

Aj,

In one village the neutral wire near the transformer was severed and 50-60 houses had serious problems in the same street due to high voltage. In our particular case it was a four storey building with 3 flats at each floor. The neutral from each house is connected to a common bronze block (connector) and the main neutral is connected to the same block. The screws holding the main neutral was loose. Thus the neutrals from all the falts were connected to the bronze block but not to the main neutral. Hence the neutrals going into the flats was free to float.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 22:35

ah yes, in UK the neutral wire is earthe at every three poıles but here in Cyprus it is only earthed at the transformer. That is one reason why we have earth fault trips (RCCB) Residual current circuit breakers but not essential in UK except for sockets near the garden.

In UK the neutral is used as earth wire too but here in Cyprus each house or apartment has a separate earth in the form of a copper rod driven into earth. the earth is not connected to the grid.

ismet

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 22:48

Ismet

OK I am slowly beginning to understand where you are coming from but even with this common Neutral problem I understand that the block of flats should be equally distributed if 'x' amount of flats are on one phase and 'x' on another and so on then why would anyone have a problem with excess voltage?

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 22:51

Ismet

Now, as to being neutral but giving your 100% support behind Talat, who happens to be AC/DC xenophobic orientated depending which way the wind 'currently' blows, are you not 'main' enough to stand on your own two 'rubber' feet?



Richard

Tootie


Joined: 28/08/2008
Posts: 2037

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 22:55

ismet,

I have some high end audio equipment here in Cyprus, Could you please advise me on the best surge equipment I should buy from you to protect them before I plug anything in!!?



I have 5 of these amplifiers in 5 single free standing speaker units, each have there own 3pin 240 supply....

http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/files/solutions/icepower1000a.pdf



Many thanks Tootie

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 22:58

Ismet

'In UK the neutral is used as earth wire too but here in Cyprus each house or apartment has a separate earth in the form of a copper rod driven into earth. the earth is not connected to the grid.'



No the Neutral is not used as an earth wire in the UK and it is the same in most other countries in that the earth connection is taken directly down to 'earth' and the neutral is taken back as far as possible to the point of electricity generation.

AJ

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 23:04

msg. 19,

Aj,

You made a very good point. The problem repeatedly arose about 11 pm when the load in general is very light. So imagine a water pump goint into action on one of the other phases. The starting current is usually very high for a couple of seconds compared to other light loads at the time. Thus for a couple of seconds the voltages on the other two phases will shoot up. My son was using a regulator which could hold the output at 220 volts while the input could vary from 150-260 volts and yet the output was about 320 volts. That means the input was at least 360 volts. Fortunately the regulator was programmed to cut off the output at 251 volts but the meter on it would show the output all the same.



msg. 20

Richard,

Thanks for your confidence in me but I believe Talat is the best man for the job.

ismet

cyprusjoker


Joined: 29/08/2009
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 23:05

Can i ask you a question Elko, i think your voltage regulators are great and i have them all around the house, however when you designed them why did you put the 110v and 240v plug sockets so close to the bottom. What it is is that you cant rest the regulator properly because the cable of the plug you put into it lifts it up off of the floor. A great product thou.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 23:09

msg. 24

cyprusjoker,

That problem has been solved on the new models and especially the SCR and the JJW models have much greater safety features built in i.e. overvoltage, overcurrent and over temperature cut offs.

ismet

Tootie


Joined: 28/08/2008
Posts: 2037

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 23:12

ismet, please excuse or ignore msg 16.

Msg 21 is a genuine question.



Thanks Tootie.

cyprusjoker


Joined: 29/08/2009
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 23:14

Thank you for your answear.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 23:24

Elko2 just looked at your web site and wow, did not realise that you had this business, no wonder you know so much about surges and electrics, ...... Really had no idea when I asked you where you could by this equipement.....

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 23:28

msg 16 and 21

tootsie,

Sorry I missed your question. In your case I will recommend the JJW static type regulator whcih adjusts the voltage almost instantly (at the first cycle) and also has a very powerful filter which is essential for sound equipment. Recording studios are now using this type of equipment.

ismet

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 23:34

oooops buy not by ......missed out the u.....

Tootie


Joined: 28/08/2008
Posts: 2037

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 23:44

Thank you ismet,

What KVA would you recommend I should have? I only really protecting the AV Equipment as I have been here a while & so far, touch wood have had no problems with anything but a few burnt out light bulbs.

But I dont want to take the risk as I think these Amplifiers are very voltage sensitive?

From the spec I posted could you tell me?

Thanks tootie

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
11/03/2010 23:56

msg. 22

AJ,

I just noticed msg 22. In UK the neutral wire is connected all through to the neutral point on the transformer and it is also earthed at every three poles. So the neutral wire is well earthed along the way. Thus there are no separate earth connections in the houses and the earth wire in the house is connected to the neutral. In Cyprus the earth wire in the house is connected to the earth rod for that house or apartment.

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
12/03/2010 00:09

msg 31

Tootie,

I looked at the specifications for the amplifiers but the 1000 watt output for sound does not indicate the real power consumption. I would really like to know what is your maximum current consumption. On the power supply please check the nameplate and somewhere it should say so many amperes or "A" for short.Once I know that figure I can work out your requirement.

ismet

sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
12/03/2010 00:41

blimey tootie,are you running a nightclub,bet your neighbours love you. lol.

Tootie


Joined: 28/08/2008
Posts: 2037

Message Posted:
12/03/2010 00:45

Ok Thanks ismet, I will get the true power consumption and email you of board through your website.

Many thanks for the help.



Tootie

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
12/03/2010 10:03

AJ:

Obviously you know a great deal about electricity and I have been playing with bulbs and batteries since the age of 5. I built my first crystal radio at the age of 12 and the valve radio at 15. When I graduated from University in 1965 we studied the theory of transistors but we had only one sample locked up in the cupboard. When I was doing research and development work for Central Electricity Generating Board in 1966 I had the honour to obtain the first integrated circuit sample from Mullards (the OMY series, simple flip flop) and I used it to trace very short surges on the new 400KV cable under test. I was a very young graduate but I became the hero of the day because the other much older engineers had no idea what to do. Good old days !!!

ismet

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
12/03/2010 10:31

If anyone is interested in seeing and talking about an Elko whole house voltage regulator, we have one on show at our office near HSBC.



Vaughan

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