So much bad feeling

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 21:41

Hi all,

A couple of weeks ago we spent a brilliant week in Northern Cyprus,and planned to meet up with our daughter who works in the south.The plan was that she would meet us at one of the borders closest to napa and come accross to the north and spend some time with us.Unfortuanateley this never happened as the people who she works for refused point blank to give her a lift,or even give her directions to the border.Reason being "if you go accross to the dark side you will never come back alive".Will this hatred ever go away and is it the same between north and south,

Regards,

Paul.

Tatlisu4me


Joined: 26/01/2008
Posts: 436

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 21:46

It is the same in the TRNC Paul when I was looking for the border crossing at Gamagusta I asked a TC and he said the nearest was Nicosia, we found it in the end by chance.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 21:54

Hiya Paul,



sorry to hear that your daughter had to ne put through this kind of disgusting behaviour.



Sad people indeed. Although I have an interest in the North with hoping to live here, I consider myself to be a person that is open minded and fair in life.



I have friends in the south and also in England, I grew up with both GC & TC. I can honestly say that the majority of resentment is from the GC community/UK based who believe that the TC, through Turkey have robbed all their land and are basically non humans! Says a lot for a possible peace process.



Until they realise that the TC community deserve to be treated as human beings and equal partners then I am afraid they do not deserve to have the Island opened up to one and all. Lets hope attitudes can change.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 21:57

Hiya,



Thirsty anyone?



wyn

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 22:18

Mal,

You must have a nose like a blood hound to find the border,

Paul.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 22:50

Tiggy,

Thanks for that.We did manage to meet up.We drove to ledra left our car in the north.But coudnt get a hire car for a day in Nicosia so had to get a taxi to napa 120 euros round trip.Expensive day but had to see her,

Regards,

Paul.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 23:19

Yes Paul,

there certainly still remains a degree of bitterness on both sides. I suppose one could say that for the GC's 1974 was the beginning of their history (they seem to have a curiously selective memory for the preceding years) which read as invasion, disposession and expulsion. The TC's however saw 1974 as the end of their history so no more attacks, enclaves and disenfranchisement.

Sadly children of both communities are stilll taught to believe that their opposite numbers come equipped with horns and a tail. Classroom textbooks continue to fuel this feeling.Realistically it is hard to see a workable political solution until there is more trust, goodwill and hope.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 23:22

Yes Bradus. Not a lot will happen until both sides realize they share the blame just as much as they share the future.

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 23:33

In the early days before I was aware of resentment, I asked my solictor in UK whether he could recommend anyone to look at my sales contract for Cyprus purchase, he reccommended another local firm who had a cypriot lawyer, I called him and when I mentioned NC he cut me off. He was a greek cypriot!

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 23:37

Ever read Kufi Birinci's story? He wrote about his experience of the 1974 invasion/intervention when he was 16 years of age and his ending certainly sums up the current situation well.



"I write of this terrible experience to show everybody how war and nationalism are the worst enemy of mankind. Why do we Cypriots have to distinguish ourselves as Turkish or Greek? Cyprus our homeland has more than enough for both communities: all we have to do is recognise that it is our country and that we can share everything it offers us. We must stop running after other countries as our motherland: if we deny our real home in favour of other nations, then the day will come when we won't have a motherland of our own. Didn't the Turkish Cypriots already lose one part of it and the Greek Cypriots the other? If we don't come back to our senses one day soon we will lose all of it.

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
22/06/2008 23:57

absolutely Sue. I never specially asked for Turkish Cypriot solicitor at the time as in my ignorance, I classed all Cyprus people as cypriot.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 00:04

It is often said that time is a great healer but not sure it is true in the Cyprus context. Rather than putting so much energy into reunification I think much more work needs to be done at "street level" Not so sure there will be a happy ending with this one unless the ground works are sorted first. You need a solid concrete base to build from and I don't think the base is in place yet.

Susie


Joined: 06/06/2007
Posts: 87

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 00:09

When Cyprus joined EU a friend from TC staying in the UK received a letter from Home Office informing her that she did not have to continue with her application for status to live in UK as cyprus had joined EU. We telephoned the Home Office number on the letter, the person who took the call assured us that 'Cyprus' had joined EU and my friend had been identified as Cypriot! They made no distinction between Notrth and South! (this may have changed, it was in the early days of Cyprus joining EU)

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 07:42

Susie,

The whole of Cyprus was admitted to EU but the "Aquis commutatere" was suspended in the north i.e. all Cypriots are members of EU but in order to prove this they have to get idendity cards or passports from the south. I have the luxury to say "no thank you" but I have a British Passport.

ismet

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 11:40

Bradus,



I wholly agree with you about the levels of bitterness and emnity between the GCs and the TCs but I do not see your solution of more work at the" street level" will nescessarily help.



We all except that there is possibly too much pain for some ever to forgive, likewise with the Palestinians and Jews, also the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland. Look what

has actually been achieved in Northern Ireland!! No one there has forgiven or forgotten, just a realisation that at some point in time,THINGS HAVE TO CHANGE, for people to move on.



Rarely do we hear of the silent majority of decent peaceloving GCs and TCs who are anxious

to move on and are more than happy to put the problems of the past behind them. I was

particularly moved by a posting from Ismet, where he had attended the funeral of a TC whose bones had been found down a well. The euology given by his son as he adressed his fathers coffin ,related how his father had been taken from his workplace, by his so called

workmates, never to return to his wife and family. What could be more difficult to forgive and forget, than that? But what did the son say on behalf of his family? His father would

not have wanted revenge, but offerred forgiveness to the perpetrators, and sought a peaceful future with the GC community.It is with such people, that the future of Cyprus lies.



I am sure that that family will never forget, but forgiveness is the key to a peaceful future



The leaders are discussing and no doubt recalling the horrors of the past. The record of that cannot be erased. It is fact! It can be manipulated and distorted (as so often heard on these boards) but that is not the route to a peaceful future. FORGIVENESS, treating the past as the past. is the route to a future peaceful coexistence.



Quite how Mr Talat and Mr Christophias will sort out the land problem. is why we have leaders. I have proposed in past postings that since 1974 there has been peace, so why alter that. The land was divided in 74, and to redistribute it again would cause much more dissent argument, hurt pain and injustice. What is needed is that ANYONE that was dispossed of their land be adequately and fully compensated (based on 1974 values)

I know that some will cry injustice, but to return to pre 1974 landholdings would be even more injustice. JUSTICE IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES IS BEST SERVED BY FAIR AND ADEQUATE COMPENSATION.



After this point in negotiation, what then is required is a catalyst. I have argued on many previous postings that I believe that the Catalyst in current circumstances will be water. The

whole Island of Cyprus is in a dire state with fresh water wells drying up. Things are critical.I have read posts where people are calling for builders, car wash businesses to be closed down. Massive fines for washing cars or watering your garden. Even a total ban on planting more trees and plants! According to the experts things are going to get worse.



There is a proposed water pipeline from Turkey. The infrastructure is even in place to receive it. Building time is estimated at two years. The Island of Cyprus is in the EEC. Are

they going to sit back, and watch it turn into a desert?



All that is required then, is a representaive Government for Cyprus with a proportionate vote for both the TC and GC population. The true Cypriots.



I contend therefore that all that is really required is FORGIVENESS, WATER, A LITTLE

COMPENSATION, AND A BIG PIPELINE, AND A LOT OF GOOD FAITH. Not exactly beyond the wit of man.



wynyardman



My views .........I an happy to debate others!



wyn

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 15:19

Hi All

I agree with most posts that what is needed is to end the bad feelings and move on.

But unfortunately the bad feelings and the continuation of resentment is shown mostly by GC people.

They have always thought in their schools that "A good Turk is a dead Turk"



This has been their understanding for a long time and this shows clearly in their will to show unification in the 2004 referandum.

It is very simple. They do not want to a change from the current situation.



It has always been the TC willing to talk and try and find a solution, but Greeks do not want to lose their status as the only recognised government. (helped by doubly standars and not keeping their promises by EU)



I will be interested to see if anyone has come across any eamples of hate from Turkish people towards Greeks in the same as Greeks have towards Turkish.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 18:06

Biker,



"They have always thought in their schools that "A good Turk is a dead Turk""



That's an extraordinary statement if it were true. If not, it is shameless demonising of the other side on a thread about reconciliation. However, I do recall some talk years ago of that slogan appearing on NG conscripts' T-shirts.



Just to keep things simple and factual, can you show the evidence of "A good Turk is a dead Turk" "always" being taught in GC schools?

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 19:51

PETITE PIKE



come on, biker wrote they have always been taught - past of to teach -



my husband agree with him - he heard it some many time while walking in the streets of limassol when he was a teenager -

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 19:52

PETITE PIKE



come on, biker wrote they have always been though- -



my husband agree with him - he heard it some many time while walking in the streets of limassol when he was a teenager -

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 20:32

Biker,



My posting was about the future for the Island. It offerred an optomistic future.



Believe me, my heart bleeds for ALL the victims of The Cyprus Dispute........



BUT.................................my friend that is yesterday!



If we are to move forward, we have to put aside (however painful, the memories of the past) Your article was written with passion, and you very clearly outlined your inherited pain. I respect you for writing it.................but if I had been quoting a GC the inherited pain, distrust and heart rending fact, would have been just as graphic.



YOU HAVE TO MOVE ON....You have leaders that have come to the table, intent on finding a solution. You should salute them both. They too are aware of the pain and distrust felt by their people. THEY HAVE GREATER IDEALS,



BURY THE PAST AND GIVE PEACE A CHANCE!. THERE IS A ROADMAP...........my advice to you all TC and GC a like, is encompass the moment!.



Within the postings of Pvt.Pike......I smell the toxic stench of dissent of Scaramanger!

There is no solution to be found in his postings, no happiness, no future. Just the constant

repeat of the emnity of the past, and dissent that he seeks to promote in the future.

The constant drip feed of anger, that seeks to consume the good faith of the optomistic



Move on my friends TC and GC alike. A brave new future awaits you.



Good Luck



wyn

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 02:34

WYN:



"Within the postings of Pvt.Pike......I smell the toxic stench of dissent of Scaramanger! There is no solution to be found in his postings, no happiness, no future. Just the constant repeat of the emnity of the past, and dissent that he seeks to promote in the future. The constant drip feed of anger, that seeks to consume the good faith of the optomistic."



Seriously, try and lay off the stuff long enough to read my post and understand it. This is a time for reconcilitation, not Efes-inspired ramblings. Wise up.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 10:18

Pvt Pike,



If you read MY postings above you will see that it is ME that is pleading for reconciliation.

It is YOU that people are increasingly refusing to debate with. It is you that continue to post

personal insults and criticisms.



wynyardman

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 10:43

Wyn,



Then why do you find it necessary to butt in when I urge another member to be more conciliatory and show evidence of his claim?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 11:00

Pvt Pike,



I have made my point very clearly on this board. Your postings are there for all to see.



You have been banned from other boards, and now you have the decent peace loving members

of this board, refusing to debate with you. Why?



wynyardman

jock1



Joined: 06/01/2008
Posts: 3786

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 11:07

wyn ! ! !

count to 10...............

Mouse


Joined: 21/05/2008
Posts: 58

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 11:16

wyn,

Oops, someone is getting a little tetchy. I thought your post made very good reading but maybe someone thought differently.

Tomorrow is another day, yesterday is the past, lets try and look forward.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 11:28

Quite relaxed guys, here in the UK (I wish it was the TRNC right now, rain here)



Just had my cornflakes, milk on them though, not Gin!



wyn

jock1



Joined: 06/01/2008
Posts: 3786

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 11:31

Not good enough wyn you must be devastated............

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 11:40

Milks cheaper Jock! I must be turning into a Scotsman!



I would like to see what your mate wackyjim has on his melon slices, as he shrivels by the pool



wyn

jock1



Joined: 06/01/2008
Posts: 3786

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 11:46

Wyn

It will take more than that to make you Scot's, one thing laughter is universal and you certainly make me laugh.

regards Graham

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 11:49

Wyn,



What you're forgetting is people get banned from boards for unacceptable behaviour, such as posting a member's personal details as you did with me. It's a cowardly and despicable thing to do. You should be capable of arguing your points without losing the plot. If someone gets banned from a BB simply because the moderators don't like his point of view, it shows how weak the mods are. This BB doesn't seem to run that way. I have no problem with harmless board banter, but someone's already been warned for making personal attacks and I suggest you take note.

jock1



Joined: 06/01/2008
Posts: 3786

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 11:57

I hope it's a £100 note.

Mouse


Joined: 21/05/2008
Posts: 58

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 12:00

Come on ... time to lighten up a bit, in fact it's not very light here with dark clouds hanging around!

New to this board and forgot to add my name.

Yvonne (from a dark and lousy scotland this morning)

jock1



Joined: 06/01/2008
Posts: 3786

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 12:08

Yvonne it's fine down by the shore Edinburgh.

kind regards Graham

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 12:13

And brightening up in Killie.

Mouse


Joined: 21/05/2008
Posts: 58

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 12:13

Thanks for that Graham, I'm only in Kirknewton - not far from the shore but have to go to work shortly so will have to give it a miss today.

Yvonne

Mouse


Joined: 21/05/2008
Posts: 58

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 12:20

Wow, I have just been given a Gold Star, it's been a long time since I was ever given one of those. I think the sun may even begin to shine here in Kirknewton!

Yvonne

Mouse


Joined: 21/05/2008
Posts: 58

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 12:43

ptepike

forgive my ignorance, is Killie short for Kilmarnock or am I way off?

have a good day and hope the sun shines for you too and everyone else for that matter. I really had better think about getting ready to go to work need the pennies to pay for the apartment in the sun.

yvonne

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 12:46

Hi Pvt Pike,



I only published information, that was already in the public domain.



My thoughts and hopes for a happy resolution to The Cyprus problem are well known on

this board and are consistent throughout. There rests my case!



wynyardman

Hot Hornet


Joined: 03/06/2008
Posts: 343

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 13:04

perhaps if you lived here you may see more evidence of the GC attitude - slogans graffitied in places - so and so (a TC) is a gay etc etc - TC kids attending schools in the South and fights happening, signs about Occupation, The Missing etc etc. Reconciliation has to happen from both sides, and one side chooses not to from what I can see.

There does, from talking to people here, seem to be a bitterness that is bred into the GC youngsters - its instilled into them from a very early age, so that nothing is fogotten about how 'hard it was for them all' etc.

I am not biased at all, but when I first arrived here I was shocked at the South being so 'open' about their view of things, whereas the Turkish Cyps were certainly more quiet about it all.

My friends nenne (granny) has told me (translated by friend) about her brother, they were based in Paphos originally, being killed and literally cut into pieces, and she found him like that. Yet, she has no bitterness in her, and even has GC's who are visiting Karaman, stop off at the restaurant, and they all have a chat in Greek!

So, I believe that the elders, due to the fact that they grew up alongside Turkish Cyps, and made many friends among them, are sometimes happy to mingle, whereas the middle aged and youth do not.

Just my thoughts.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 13:35

HH,



So do you think that things should be left as they are? No attempts at reconciliation.



I think the TRNC deserve better!



My view, thats all!



wyn

Mouse


Joined: 21/05/2008
Posts: 58

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 13:53

Agree with a few of the points you mentioned HH. I do think a lot of the older people are happier to talk and mingle as you say, but I was very surprised at the response we had after talking to younger people (admin staff) on our complex when we asked if they did any shopping etc in the south. They looked horrified that we should ask such a question so I still think there may be some horror stories being handed down by some Turkish Cyps to their offsprings. This has just been my observations but thought I would share it anyway.

Have a good day. I really am on my way to work now!!

Hot Hornet


Joined: 03/06/2008
Posts: 343

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 14:11

Wynny mate

its not up to us to decide though is it really! I really do not have an opinion as I don't feel I have a right to one - its the Cypriots issue, so we need to be asking them. Most cypriots I know are happy with the way things are - they are not bothered one way or another!



Mouse - yes you are probably right, I just don't know any! have a good day!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 20:53

Hi Mouse,



Yep, It's Killiemarnock where I've just been attacked outside court by the brother of a postmistress who stole £68,000 from the till (no recovery) and got 300 hours community service (I write about these lovely people).



I reckon the youngsters at your complex who looked horrified at the suggestion they went shopping in the south have been briefed to give this response to newbies. Either that or they didn't understand. Hundreds if not thousands of Turkish Cypriots work or go shopping in the south every day. It's utterly normal - and it's their Cyprus too. Only the idiots and the ignorant - on both sides - keep going on about the blame game. It's a barrier to settlement and this has been reflected on the record after failed reunification talks.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 20:57

Moose,



Missed out the most important bit. The young staff members quite possibly looked horrified at the suggestion of going to the south because they were Turkish citizens and are not allowed to cross over. Almost all hospitality industry staff in N Cyprus are Turks, not Cypriots, and their entry into the TU is controlled.

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 21:14

H.H.

It is strange to me that you find the young/middle aged less willing to forgive

etc. While teaching in 99/2000 in Gazimagusa I had to accompany children to

a handball match in Lefkosa. One the way the teacher in charge insisted they

went to the "Martyrs Graves" - a village on the way that was wiped out with

only one survivor who spoke to the children. They were sad, but went on to

their match as they do. It was definitey a case by this older woman of "Do not

forget this" which I can understand. However, several young students in the

college were writing essays for the Fulbright (American) prize for opposing communities to win a scholarship to study together with their "enemies" in America & the essays were very optimistic & showed a real interest & desire to

be free to meet the other side & to know them. Maybe they were only a few but still...

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 21:43

Phylray,

Thanks for your post and to everyone who put in their sixpenneth,cant beat a proper debate to get the blood pumping around the body.Nothing at all wrong about being passionate about your beliefs.



I have friends who live in Northern Ireland who grew up with the divides in their country and were not allowed to play in the street with catholics and protestant friends who were not allowed to mix with catholics.And from early school age they where brainwashed into thinking that "the enemy" were evil and this was taught to them in the classroom by so called educated people.I am glad to say that the scripture has now changed in the irish schools.And the country has become a more united front.



Atrocities were committed by both sides in Cyprus,as they have been over the years by most countries with the biggest perpertrators probably being the british.I wouldnt for one minute suggest that loved ones be forgotten about,no way,but i do feel that now is the time to either say cyprus will unite or have two seperate countries and get on with getting each others house in order,



Regards,

Paul.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 22:07

Pvt Pike,



It wasn't me outside the court in Killiemarnock. I have been with witnesses all day!

Sober too!



wyn

Mouse


Joined: 21/05/2008
Posts: 58

Message Posted:
25/06/2008 01:23

ptepike



Hope you were not hurt in the attack, I know what I would like to do to those kind of people(I'm being very polite here) Didn't know the borders were not open to certain people, sorry really showing my ignorance, but now you mention it I did read somewhere about who can and cannot cross. Thanks for that info though. Have friends in Kilmarnock, in fact one was just through yesterday.



HH - thanks, did have a good day at work.

Yvonne

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
25/06/2008 11:31

Mouse,



I'm OK thanks. He very helpfully said who is was as he waded in and it should all be on CCTV. That's my third Purple Heart.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/06/2008 11:44

I think you can expect that any group of people who have split off from each other are more inclined to take a negative view of the other, particularly if they infrequently make contact with each other, to experience the humanity of the other side. This would happen even if there hadn't been a war as there was in 74.

Humans have a design flaw in the modern world, which is we don't tolerate differences very well. We defend against difference and maintain the status quo (resist change) and project our fears on to the other group. The other group holds our fears so we don't have to change. We feel safer in our own group who are considered normal.

This sort of thing happens all the time. You see it in business i.e the marketing see's the sales team as a bunch of wallies and vice versa.



A big problem in Cyprus is that if you don't make contact with the other commmunity you don't get to know the other community and you depersonify them. You can turn them in to non humans. Studies show that often people get bullied because they don't speak up for themselves. The bully can't get to see and experience the person and tends to depersonify the victim and continue the bullying. The best thing a victim can do is to show aspects of their personality. This allows the two parties to integrate.



Christofias has been very clever. He has been shouting the message that we are all Cypriots. This can help to personify the other group and include it. (Christofias also needs to sever the norths ties with Turkey). I think Talat has been talking a different language which is that we are two different people.

Christofias was also bold to say that we should solve this problem as Cypriots, not with any outside help, however he seems to have made a fatal flaw, which is to do the opposite and bring in the UK. This seems to have dented the trust, and this may now be difficult to repair.



Although Christofias has been clever in talking in terms of one people, a negotaition of this size and magnitude has to involve a neutral 3rd party. The differences between the groups i.e their wants and needs, if too large which it probably is, is unlikley to be contained within the group. It needs to be held by this 3rd party. Big differences mean they will firstly try to convert each other, if that doesn't work they will then push very hard and then they will split and then we are back to square one.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/06/2008 13:10

Justice needed to happen, but I am astonished by the timing of this.



Taken from Cyprus Mail



'ANKARA has been ordered to pay hundreds of thousands of euros in compensation to the families of two Greek Cypriots after the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) found Turkey responsible for their deaths.



Tassos Isaak and Solomos Solomou were killed by Turkish forces and Turkish Cypriot police during separate anti-occupation demonstrations in Dherynia in August 1996.'

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
25/06/2008 14:26

Just read the post titled Ikea and it is very clear where the bad feelings are.



Biker

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/06/2008 14:43

I had not read the Ikea posting Biker. That's bad news