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A Complaint, freedom of speech denied

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Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 16:17

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Message 1 of 46 in Discussion

I wrote a rather informative thread earlier regarding circumcision or genital mutilation and asked for members to explain the need for such an operation to be carried out on young boys here in the TRNC.



I think that Izzet has revoked the thread which is a shame.



Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 16:30

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Message 2 of 46 in Discussion

The thread explained the reasons behind the foreskin and how it protects the head of the penis and lets the smegma glands at it base do there job in cleansing the skin, if you remove the foreskin you are left with an open wound for life and spend the majority of time itching an adjusting your parts through your trousers while walking up the high street which I mentioned is quite an unpleasant sight for both females and males alike, I also mentioned that bribing a child with a new playstation or money is a very sad state of events, and the fact that this the poor boy post-op is then placed on a donkey or horse and paraded through the streets is something you would have expected to see in the bronze age.



elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 16:49

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Message 3 of 46 in Discussion

Aslan,

Whatever the rights and the wrongs of the case, a moderator is a moderator and trying to get in again through the back door is wrong. I am a moderator myself on another board and I would not allow such behaviour.



Remember the motto: A boss is not always right but a boss is always a boss and without one it would be chaos.

ismet



sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 16:50

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Message 4 of 46 in Discussion

aslan,



you are uting your finger into the wrong place, are you a doctor ? even if you are i don't think it is the right forum to discuss about circoncision or excission !!! i wont make any more comments about it -



McSteviet



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1089

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 17:02

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Message 5 of 46 in Discussion

Aslan,



This is not a subject that we need to see or discuss on this forum, sorry.



Please refrain from posting more of the same or similar subject matter.



Regards



MC



Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 17:05

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Message 6 of 46 in Discussion

ismetbey,

my sincere apologises to you, I didn't think my thread was of bad behaviour, it is just an observation that I thought you and other like minded intelligent people might be able to explain to me, I am not and never have been in a position to ask my father, brothers and othe male relatives and friends as to the meaning of this practice.

Obviously my own thoughts on this practice can be observed and I guess that if one wishes to keep this practice behind closed doors and unexplained then so be it.



Dear sylvie,

my deepest apologises go out to you also, I thought the sole purpose of this forum was for residents to explain our culture to its readers regardless of the content. I will will take this thread to a forum that is willing to share one of the most beautiful or traumatic moments of a boys childhood.



Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 17:30

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Message 7 of 46 in Discussion

Sorry MC,

just not cricket is it!

I guess the forum should stick to discussing the poisoning of pets and other similar subject matter, as that really happens and is more important!



cruggs


Joined: 06/04/2008
Posts: 498

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 17:46

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Message 8 of 46 in Discussion

hi aslan,sorry but i dont think your freedom of speech, has been denied,as you

have posted this topic.for all members to read,as i am now its the content of

the topic thats questionable.i think that most of the members on this forum

are broad minded but is realy a topic for discussion.



Tatlisu4me


Joined: 26/01/2008
Posts: 436

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 17:47

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Message 9 of 46 in Discussion

Alsan I havn,t got a problem with it were all grown ups arn,t we.



I better than some of the recent arguments/threads we have witnessed.



the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 17:50

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Message 10 of 46 in Discussion

Hi Aslan,



I think the problem here, is that it is not part of our culture for this to happen to our boys unless it is for medical reasons and therefore a subject that is uncomfortable to talk about. We have worked for a long time for a middle eastern family and it is part of their culture and although we may not agree with it we accept that this happens. One has to accept a lot of things in life, like pheasant shooting and deer stalking and fox hunting, especially if you work on a country estate. It doesn't say you agree with them or condone it and I feel the same way about your subject.



The butlers wife



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 17:51

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Message 11 of 46 in Discussion

Aslan,



Freedom of speech and basic issues of civil liberties are unfamiliar concepts to some people in these parts. The fact that you are being silenced for highlighting issues involving the abuse and mutilation of children in north Cyprus is even sadder. My brother's a doctor, my wife is a nursing sister and I'm in the media. Drop me an email at mac_beth@hotmail.co.uk and I'll have a word with some colleagues about this very important issue. Good on you for raising the topic. Keep the faith. ;)



Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 18:03

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Message 12 of 46 in Discussion

Thank you all for your positive remarks,

I am more than happy for the Morris Men to dance the streets of rurla England and hand out fertility cake as is the case now, unless I am mistaken the use of virgins in ceremonial practices was banned quite some time ago, now that's progress!



As is the banning on hunting in the Uk, although I am aware it is difficult to police it is the way forward, now thats progress!



If a reader can give me a valued reason as to why this practice goes on and is acceptable, that would be progress!



dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1897

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 18:32

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Message 13 of 46 in Discussion

Asian,

You certainly choose your moments.I was just about to bite into my hot dog when i read your first post.I really dont have a problem with it though,

Paul.



sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 19:12

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Message 14 of 46 in Discussion

dear aslan,



i have a point of view about it and have been concerned as i am the mother of 2 grown up boys ! but my english is not good enough to debate about such a large subject in this forum - in a way, you are right when you say that some posts are ridiculious and don't bring anything concrete to the forum but between your subject and some others , you put the level to high - no solution can come out because everyone has it's own idea -



jock1



Joined: 06/01/2008
Posts: 3786

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 19:25

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Message 15 of 46 in Discussion

I think all thing's should be dissused, whether it is or is not to everybody,s taste. So i dont personally mind.



McSteviet



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1089

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 19:30

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Message 16 of 46 in Discussion

Izzet,



I would welcome your views on this subject. There are mixed views regarding this subject. I thought it might be a bit too much for general consumption, but if you think the subject matter is ok on the forum, then I will accept that view, I had no idea that this would be such a sensative issue.



MC



Tatlisu4me


Joined: 26/01/2008
Posts: 436

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 21:14

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Message 17 of 46 in Discussion

In the pub and these pork scratching don,t taste to good Wyn



kibrissibel


Joined: 18/02/2008
Posts: 562

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 21:45

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Message 18 of 46 in Discussion

Can't see why this offensive. If people don't want to read a certain post they can decide by looking at the title of the posting. Different countries have different cultures/religions etc and this is a part of NC culture, so I'm unsure why this can't be discussed on this forum.



Me and my husband were invited to a circumcision party by some TC friends of ours. My husband laughed and explained to them, "Thank you very much, but I've already been done." Which they found amusing. Having said that, I do remember going to a cousings circumcision party when I was about ten and it was not a very pleaseant experience. (For me or my cousin!!!!)



Sibel



elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 22:10

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Message 19 of 46 in Discussion

Aslan,

I did not say anything in favour or against discussing such subjects on these forms. If you must know, actually I am in favour of questioning this practice but that is besides the point. My point is that if the moderator has removed a post or thread, that should be the end of it unless you wish to take the matter up with the moderator in private. However it is wrong to bring up the subject again under the guise of "free speach". If such practice is to be allowed, it would make a monkey of every decision of the moderator and we would end up with free for all. Is this what we want? Of course not.

ismet



Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 23:03

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Message 20 of 46 in Discussion

Aslan,



Anyone would find it hard to defend this practice. It is surely a practice defended only through the use of myths? The World Health Organisation and Amnesty International have been "educating" on this topic for many years now yet it is still widely practiced in many Asian and African countries.Female circumcision is even more barbaric than male circumcision and can have the severest of consequences in terms of physical and mental health. There can be no justification for this.



simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 23:08

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Message 21 of 46 in Discussion

actually the child is not left with an open wound for the rest of his life if its done properly by a qualified doctor , we used to do them at a gp surgery i worked at, the child was given local anaesthesia , the frenulum is pulled over the penis , measured and cut off , then the remaining frenulum was stitched around the penis , both my boys were done in the hospital with no problems .



gottheyips


Joined: 28/12/2007
Posts: 444

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 23:21

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Message 22 of 46 in Discussion

Probably one of the most interesting and eyewatering subjects I have read on the forum.

It believe it would have been interesting to see the subject bared and dissected.!!!



I have no prior knowledge or know of anyone that has been "done" sorry if that is not the best way to describe it, however I feel a little cheated that the moderator thought it fit to remove such a discussion.



elko2,

surely a moderator should make a judgement and react when there is an obvious objection by forum members and not on there own beliefs, to do otherwise is surely dictating not moderating.



Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 23:25

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Message 23 of 46 in Discussion

But why would you put children through unnecessary surgery? No matter what the surgery, there is always a risk of infection, reaction to the local anaesthesia and pain from the cutting of skin and suturing. Sutures can come out and this could lead to unnecessary blood loss. Why inflict this on children who do not have a voice to say yes or no. Why are GP's carrying out unnecessary surgery, when ill patients wait days for appointments to be seen or rush people who really could have done with more time to talk? Tradition/culture is no longer a valid reason if it has the potential to cause injury.



Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 23:39

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Message 24 of 46 in Discussion

You can never become a Morris Dancer if you have been circumcised!





















You need to be a complete prick to be a Morris Dancer!



Lem lol



simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 23:51

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Message 25 of 46 in Discussion

hi bradus ,i suppose , its safer to offer the service of performing a sterile procedure under sterile conditions , than let some unqualified person ignorant in the practice of sterile procedures perform them , and they did too on a regular basis , we had a lot of corrective surgeries where babies had been circumcised by a lay person belonging to their faith , not always a pretty sight i can tell you , it was far safer bringing them to the surgery , its not a free service there was a charge involved , also the doctor { a muslim himself } did them on his day off . of course its a religous thing that will carry on for generations to come i dare say , rightly or wrongly .

regards , simbas



cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
23/06/2008 23:57

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Message 26 of 46 in Discussion

What is wrong with circumsision?????????????



An emotive sentence maybe, but it has gone on since time began, the only issue here is that happens at 5 years old rather than at birth in most other cultures.



The answer here is the youngster will remember the party at 5 years old rather than at birth.



The thing with the donkey or whatever is that it is before the snip not after in my experience, the young boy is not too keen on the donkey ride after the snip.



This thread to me is yet another attack on the culture of our adopted country. Maybe the culture leaves something to be desired but it is not for people on this or any other forum to dictate to the endigenous popultaion.



So on this topic I would say - get lost - it has nothing to do with you!!!!!!!



phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 00:11

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Message 27 of 46 in Discussion

Millions (probably billions) all over the world are circumcised - particularly

in Islam & Judaic cultures & do not have open wounds. In fact, 2 of my

brother-in-laws (one Christian one Hindu) had to have it done as adults & it

is sometimes needed. Better to do it when they are small. Some do question

the rights of parents/societies to do it without their permission, but mostly it

is accepted. I understand that women in these cultures suffer far less from

cervical cancers, so it may be more hygienic. Female circumsicion is a very

different matter, totally unneccessary in any way, cruel & abominable.



elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 00:32

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Message 28 of 46 in Discussion

Re. msg. 22

Gottheyips,

Can you do a 100% quality test on a box of matches? Once you have tested a match, it becomes useless!! In the same sense, once you open up for discussion a post removed by the moderator, the judgement of the moderator is bypassed automatically, hence there can be no effective moderation and everything would be open for discussion including the rejected posts!!! QED.

ismet



gottheyips


Joined: 28/12/2007
Posts: 444

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 00:43

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Message 29 of 46 in Discussion

For forum users to RE- OPEN a subject might well give the moderator something to think about. Perhaps a wrong decision!!!!

I'm not always right but I am never wrong springs to mind..



Izzet



Joined: 01/12/2006
Posts: 921

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 00:45

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Message 30 of 46 in Discussion

elko2: My point is that if the moderator has removed a post or thread, that should be the end of it unless you wish to take the matter up with the moderator in private. However it is wrong to bring up the subject again under the guise of "free speach".



I agree.



Izzet



Izzet



Joined: 01/12/2006
Posts: 921

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 00:50

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Message 31 of 46 in Discussion

This forum is not heavily moderated at all, so I don't think we have a serious problem here...



If you believe your post is deleted as part of a moderation, it may be good idea to repost with less negative, less offensive, more appropriate words.



Just general advice...



Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 00:54

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Message 32 of 46 in Discussion

It is not an attack on a country or its people. It is an attack on a procedure which is often unnecessary and not without complications. Very young chldren, have this inflicted on them without choice. As Simbas identified, some babies and children needed a lot of corrective surgery after babies had been circumcised by a lay person. I totally agree with Simbas that the procedure is best performed by a qualified, competent person but sadly not all parents can afford this so in many third world countries, circumcisions are often performed in the most unsterile conditions and often with no local anaesthetic and broken glass being used instead of surgical instruements. Septacaemia and death are not rare in such conditions. Even in Britain one baby in 900 will die from this procedure. The way forward has to be through education, not dictation. Look at the work that Amnesty and the World Health Organisation are doing particularly in an attempt to lower female mutilation. I would say that anything that saves peoples lives and prevents pain and suffering are everyones business. Nursed a very young girl who had been severely mutilated in this way and will never forget the pain she endured and the deformity and disability she will live with for the rest of her life. All in the name of tradition.



Susie


Joined: 06/06/2007
Posts: 88

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 01:08

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Message 33 of 46 in Discussion

Cyprusishome - i don't think anyone was attacking the culture of 'our adopted country'. The thread appeared to be started by a male who needs answers to serious questions that he feels unable to raise within his own community. I don't think he was being offensive or provokative....he is just looking for information, same as the rest of us.



Perhaps using the term 'freedom of speech' was the wrong way to get post back on the forum. I didn't see original post so don't know why it was deleted.



i personally don't have a problem with the post.



Susie


Joined: 06/06/2007
Posts: 88

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 01:14

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Message 34 of 46 in Discussion

Aslan I have just read another thread which refers to you as a female and i had assumed from your graphic description of circimscision that you were a male..my aploogies



Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 11:49

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Message 35 of 46 in Discussion

Thank you for your posts,

May I firstly apologise to Izzet and other moderators for bringing this sensitive subject to the forum, at no point did I wish to offend members, the main point to the thread was to open a discussion as to why circumcisions are perfomed on young boys in the TRNC and the implications.



So far the replies have either encouraged participation in the post or totaly comdemend me for posting the thread in the first place.



Yet as members will note the reasons for this practice has not yet been explained by my elders, whose culture participate in this practice.



Again my sincere apologises for posting the thread.



Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 11:50

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Message 36 of 46 in Discussion

The initial post seems rather alarmist - what's your agenda "Aslan"?



In relation to MALE circumcision you are completely wrong when you assert that the procedure leaves an "open wound for life and spend the majority of time itching an adjusting your parts". In fact, studies have shown that MALE circumcision helps prevent the spread of HIV, and this is causing a change amongst the medical community who for the last 20 years or so were becoming more antipathetic to the practice.

Please see:

http://www.avert.org/circumcision-hiv.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm

http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/index.html



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 11:55

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Message 37 of 46 in Discussion

Hmm. No excuse for people who should know better condoning the mutilation of children in the name of religious dogma. And what about the number of toddlers in N Cyprus with pierced ears? I wonder who did that to them.



Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 12:00

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Message 38 of 46 in Discussion

Thank you Gordon,

The first positive reply, suggesting that the circumcision of young boys in the TRNC in to prevent the spread of HIV.



Thank you.



The agenda was to find out why this practice is performed, but now you have enlightened me, the subject should be closed.



Hot Hornet


Joined: 03/06/2008
Posts: 343

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 12:52

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Message 39 of 46 in Discussion

interesting subject, and I don't have any objections to people talking about it at all.

talking to Cypriot friends, they were all fairly embarrassed, not with the fact that they had had the snip, but more the parading around afterwards, and how bloody painful it was!



sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 14:32

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Message 40 of 46 in Discussion

what about ears piercing,

what about tatoo,

what about circoncision,

what about excision,

what about been virgin before mariage !!!!



endless debate



Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 14:58

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Message 41 of 46 in Discussion

Arranged marriages



Female cirumcision



Female oppresion



All traditions we can do without



No one minds a hindo turban it hurts no one they grow their hair it hurts no one .



Catholics for years only ate fish on fridays it hurt no one, when tradition starts hurting mutilating and causing harm them in my opinion it has no place in the moern world.



Or do we bring back a very british tradition and start HANGING MURDERERS rather then giving them probation help and compensation as they have had their human rights violated ??



Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 15:35

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Message 42 of 46 in Discussion

I never said circumcision in North Cyprus was to prevent HIV. What I took exception to was your assertion that circumcised men have an open wound and spend the rest of their lives scratching - a patent falsehood.



What is true is that muslim and jewish men are circumcised generally for traditional reasons. Until the mid 1970's it was also common practice in many western countries to circumcise men. Since then it fell out of favour in those western countries as, with proper hygiene, it was felt it was an unneccessary procedure.



Except that, with the advent of HIV and aids and their spread to plague-like levels in sub-saharan Africa, notice was taken that HIV was relatively not so prevalent amongst communities in which male circumcision common. Studies, as you can see from the links I posted, have concluded that male circumcision can cut the spread of HIV by approximately 44% (heterosexual sex).



So it seems we have come full-circle and that MALE circumcision, far from being merely a cultural issue, is now actually supported by medical fact.



So why your problem with it?



the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 18:25

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Message 43 of 46 in Discussion

Hi all,



I think you will find that the cultures and religeons that perform circumcision are in countries that are geographically hot. This practice has been happening for thousands of years, even Jesus Christ was circumcised in the temple. There is a link between this practice and the lack of water in these countries years ago and it was done mainly for hygiene reasons. It has now become part of these cultures even though it may not be necessary any more.



The Butlers wife



PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
24/06/2008 19:34

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Message 44 of 46 in Discussion

"Catholics for years only ate fish on fridays it hurt no one"



Tell it to the fish.



Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
25/06/2008 11:22

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Message 45 of 46 in Discussion

Hi Gordon,



Assuming that the young boys in the TRNC who are circumcised are not sexually active and will not threaten the sexual health of others untill later in life, then surely it should be at that time, lets say from the age of 16 that the boy can decide for himself whether to lose his virginity, be circumcised, wear a condom, get a tatoo, have various types of piercing e.t.c



phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
25/06/2008 21:06

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Message 46 of 46 in Discussion

There are some men who for reasons of their parents' prudishness & neglect

needed to be circumscised when young (also for social reasons) Eventually had to have the op. when married! Yes, literally to save their marriages.

I don't like the idea of doing it to everyone when very young, but it is part of

the traditions of millions in the world who see it, (as has been said) as hygienic

& it has had some benefits.



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