[BLUEFIN TUNA] Sea Shepherd starts action in Mediterranean

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
29/03/2010 21:46

The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society (SSCS) is a non-profit, marine conservation organization - it will start action shortly in the Mediterranean against illegal Blue Fin Tuna fishing boats. Protecting this species has failed sadly and predictions are now that Blue Fin Tuna will be extinct in the Med between 2-5 years. The Dutch spokesman declared that the SSCS action will be merciless.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
29/03/2010 21:51

Hans. What country are these illegal fisherman from?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
29/03/2010 22:11

Bill, the Dutch spokesman (I heard him explain on Dutch radio) refused to give details, but said that informants will update the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society (SSCS) about countries, ports and fishing boats. They will use the same hard measures as they did and do against whaler boats (throwing ropes in the ships propellers etc). By the way: Green Peace calls this organisation "terrorists". It'll be interesting to follow!

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
29/03/2010 22:16

It certainly will Hans. Please keep us informed.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
30/03/2010 04:24

Could somebody tell me how if you are fishing how you can differentiate between blue and yellow fin tuna,

I supose a notice on the lure 'go away blue fin'

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
30/03/2010 09:29

Good morning, Hippo! I can't answer your question in msg 5 - I caught Blue fin tuna's near Capetown in South Africa and if I remember well there were also Yellow fin tuna's swimming in the same area. So there's a problem, I suppose. As you'll know there was a conference recently where the countries of this world couldn't agree - as usual - about measures to save the species. Maybe the only solution is a total ban on tuna fishing, like I remember from the North Sea where fishing for herring (a seven years ban), sole and other threatened species? I don't know. But it seems certain that if nothing is done we can cry about another extinct species (in the Mediterranean) within a couple of years. You got any ideas about what should be done?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
30/03/2010 09:30

I agree with Hans, unless something is done these creatures become extinct.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
31/03/2010 06:10

An interesting analogy Hans now we come to the dilemma Conservation or preservation thier is a subtle difference.



Conservation is management of resources preservation is a much stronger action which in reality would mean a total ban.

This is counterproductive as has been proved in the North Sea, it decimates communities taking away livelihoods. it also leaves the door open for other countries still to fish that don't have the same enforced quota's.

But the most damaging effect is that it still destroys fish, if a fisherman catches illegal fish in his nets he has to throw them back which in the majority of cases results in dead fish been dumped overboard.



My opinion and some wont like it is do nothing, maybe this is natural selection and the Blue fin will either survive or die out, the costs of doing otherwise will outweigh the benefits .

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
31/03/2010 07:07

Hippo, exactly that is being done in the southern hemisphere, where gigantic Japanese catcher boats...floating factories...take in hundreds of tonnes of tuna in a single haul. They are raping the Southern Ocean of bluefin, and Australia can do nothing to stop them. The rest of the world simply doesn't care.



Sea Shepherd are active in those waters, but they don't get much chance to throw ropes in propellors. The Japanese recently sank a Sea Shepherd fastboat by ramming it, and guess what happened? Yeah, nothing. All this activity is to tyr to prevent the Japanese from whaling activities.



So do nothing, hippo? Sorry, I don't reckon that kind of response ever works.

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
31/03/2010 07:50

The recommendation from the scientific community was for a total ban on the sale of Bluefin tuna - so dire is the situation (see http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/33323.asp). The CITES convention rejected the proposal, it is suggested principally because the Japanese bribed uninterested 3rd world countries to oppose the ban, and as that was the only proposal on the table, no action was taken. Consequently, tuna fishing is not illegal. The next CITES convention will not be for several years by when the bluefin will probably have gone and all remaining tuna species, already at risk, will be on the verge.

The Eastern Med is one of two known breeding grounds of the Bluefin tuna so will be the last battleground. It is here that the species will live or die as the remnants come to breed. The Med communities are not large scale tuna catchers, it is the huge Japanese fleets that have been operating here for years that are the principal culprits as in all matters of marine conservation.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
31/03/2010 08:26

I wasnt aware that Japenese fishing fleets are operating in the Med, on my fairly extensive sea bourne travels around i have never come accross any.

What i have seen is Japenese factory ships that buy the Tuna and processes it.



The abolition of Tuna fishing will have a big effect on the fishing communities that actually do the catching, how do the conservationists recocile that.



Sea Shepard may not find it as easy in Turkish waters the Sail Guvenlick are very very professional.



I am not anti conservation i have been a Green Peace member now for over 20 years

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/03/2010 08:42

So. It's A) a total ban for several years all over the world, B) a local ban in the most threatened areas for several years, or C) do nothing, with known consequences? How about targeting the end of the line, the supermarkets/consumers?

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
31/03/2010 10:47

3 years ago in December when there was a very bad storm here, there were over 20 Japanese fishing boats sheltering at the Karpaz. And December is not the best month for tuna.

henrik



Joined: 01/10/2009
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
31/03/2010 12:06

greenpeace is fighting since years for a protected area between cyprus and turkey so that fish species can recover, especially the tuna as the have their breeding grounds around here. The problem at the moment is the enormous catch of tuna which are not in the breeding age. this will kill the species very fast. the illegal fishing ships (which I have already seen a few times in karpaz) come mostly from syria, also some african countries. I have infos that the number of breeding turtles in karpaz golden sand are constantly going down - they drown in the nets of big trolls.

As long as we eat tuna on pizzas and in our salad, nothing will change. we need to change our fish eating behaiviour. but who cares? as long as we only look at the price. BTW: Yellowfin tuna has yellow fins. Bluefin is more dark = blue (use google). http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/seashepherdconservationsociety?ref=ts

http://www.greenpeace.org/turkey/campaigns/defending-our-mediterranean/take-action

regards

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
31/03/2010 12:07

Hippo, do you really believe it is local fishing communities doing the catching? I've done a lot of ocean sailing too, especially in Australian waters, and there are no local Japanese fishing communities there. But there are many huge Japanese catcher boats, and they definitely do their own catching. They are enormous, and their long lines are decimating the population. It's a huge business run by large corporations.



It's a toss-up whether the toothfish or the southern Bluefin will become extinct first...

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
01/04/2010 07:18

First the boats around the Karpaz- whilst obviously I cant comment specifically on a particular incident it is my belief that the boats that use that anchorage are from Turkey, Syria and Egypt, Turkey has a huge fishing fleet based in Iskenderun.



My antipodean friend misread my statement 'local meant local communities'



What I can comment on having first hand information is that the large Tuna nets placed around the Tunisian coast are definatley put there by local fisherman granted the catch or some of it purchased by the Japanese.



Malta have large holding pens for Tuna where they are fed and then bought by the Japanese.



It is not only Japan that buys Tuna or catches Tuna anyone who has been around the Atlantic coast of Spain Barbette being one of the main places will not fail to notice the miles and miles of Tuna netting that is fixed in place when the Tuna are running.



I seem to be getting criticism for being anti conservationist which i am not.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
01/04/2010 08:16

RE msg 16, Hippo: (...) I seem to be getting criticism for being anti conservationist which i am not. (...)

=> Not at all, Hippo. I think this is a very interesting thread with facts and opinions I didn't know (much) about. Let's all keep the tone friendly while sharing knowledge!

mollycorbin


Joined: 12/03/2010
Posts: 390

Message Posted:
01/04/2010 21:52

Dutch,

Here is a relatively recent article on the matter "U.N. rejects export ban on bluefin tuna" http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/un-rejects-export-ban-on-bluefin-tuna



And another article here http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/farm-raised-bluefin-tuna-spawn-controversy# which explains the vast problems with farm raising.



mc

mahdel


Joined: 28/05/2009
Posts: 255

Message Posted:
01/04/2010 22:14

I ran environmental blogs for years so please don't think of me as anti-conservationist in any way, but the SSCS is the worst kind of environmentalist. Their activities do very little to change environmental situations and very much to publicize the SSCS. On top of that, they regularly engage in marine activities that endanger the lives of sailors on their own side as well as that of their opponents. I'm sure they know quite well that their actions are ineffective, and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and suggest that most of their activities are dedicated to raising awareness about bluefin tuna scarcity. However, as most of their time and energy seems to be spent on sparring with Japanese whalers, a group that everyone and their mother has already condemned, I'm a little wary about their intentions. I wholeheartedly agree that tuna fishing should be banned in bluefin breeding grounds for at least a decade, but I don't think the way they are going about it is effective.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
02/04/2010 07:56

RE msg 19, mahdel: (...) SSCS ... but I don't think the way they are going about it is effective. (...)

=> OK. But what else has been effective until now then..?

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
02/04/2010 08:26

Some may even call it Environmental Terrorism-



I abhor the Japanese continuation of whaling, I equally condemn the Swedish Dolphin killing, clubbing of seal cubs, jungle meat (ie gorillas and chimpanzees) and a hundred or so more barbaric practices practised by the non conformists to our Western, middle class, white ideals.



The environmentalists sit in thier Ivory towers and pontificate on what or should not be done about the dwindling wild life.



Then the majority go home to thier nice homes thier contented family's and thier secure lifestyle.



What thought do they have for the starving African, the Tunisian Fisherman, if they really want to do something about it then they should be concentrating thier efforts in providing alternatives both in the way of food and employment to the people who need to carry out these practices to survive.



Yes i am an Environmentalist because I can afford to be.

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
02/04/2010 10:35

mahdel, I hear what you are saying about Sea Shepherd, and probably more specifically Paul Watson, for publicity-seeking is the name of their game. Yes, they have been called terrorists, mostly by Greenpeace, and their actions are as close to warfare as they can get without firing anything more effective than stink bombs. They continue to put themselves in harms way, but that ramming was, as seen in the video, clearly a result of intent on the part of the Japanese.



It's fine to claim that everyone and their mother has condemned the Japanese, but as Hans said, just how effective has that condemnation been? How many catchers have been put out of business by all the righteous condemnation?



Hippo, I can't begrudge genuine local communities who are in need of food or revenue setting nets in local waters, for they are not huge corporations raping the seas in insane quantities.



But tell me of some other group than western, middle class white idealists that even cares about conservati

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
02/04/2010 12:16

Does this include pleasure fishermen also ? does this include anyone trying to feed their family ? there might be a case for commercial fishing for blue fin Tuna but not for the afore mentioned surely.

ozwozz86


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 336

Message Posted:
02/04/2010 15:56

Am very much enjoying this thread - I am glad there are people that take an interest and discuss the topic



As a... 'trained' (at uni and in practice) conservation biologist ...I've had many of these discussions and not yet come up with solution.

I feel there should be a ban...but also appreciate the affect this can have on small local communities - conservation in my mind can not be successful without local support - it is in fact vital.

they can ımpose a ban but then no one is there to monitor and enforce it - where does the funding come from to do this? and how do you go about banning some people but not others so the local community is not affected? or impose a complete ban and offer some sort of alternative to the people's livelihoods you are affecting.



The sad thing is how everything always revolves around money. I don't fully agree with the methods of some environmentalists but then can see how frustrated they can become when CITES etc. meet and no results come f

ozwozz86


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 336

Message Posted:
02/04/2010 16:01

....no results come from it.



I find it frustrating and sometimes it really can be depressing....but then I think there must be a way and we just haven't thought of it yet.

Unfortunately I feel some people somewhere wıll be affected.



Demand is what drives it...but then I think if you're doing for tuna you have to do for all....e.g. products wıth palm oıl in - palm oıl plantatıons have caused the destructıon of massıve tracts of rainforests and affects one of the most charasmatic species - the orangutan. thıs is just one example, there are so many others.



İt is very difficult. That is for sure. And there never seems to be a fully 'rıght' answer

ozwozz86


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 336

Message Posted:
02/04/2010 16:01

(Andrea by the way - not Oz :D )

mahdel


Joined: 28/05/2009
Posts: 255

Message Posted:
02/04/2010 17:36

re: effectiveness of attempted solutions up til now



I agree that there has yet to be an effective solution to the problem. I'm mostly for a ban in breeding grounds myself. However, the fact that previous actions have not solved the problem doesn't mean that what SSCS is doing WILL fix the problem. I am wary of the group mostly because the large amount of money they raise per year seems largely to be spent on what amounts to PR stunts.



As for condemnation not being effective, particularly in the case of the Japanese, I agree. However, if the combined ire of the civilized world has not stopped Japanese whaling, two boats annoying the whalers won't either. The only thing that will end Japanese whaling is the end of the market for whale meat. SSCS is more likely to get someone, most likely themselves, hurt or killed with their actions than do anything concrete for the whales.



I'll be interested to see how this turns out versus how a similar situation with cod turned out.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
02/04/2010 17:37

RE msg 24, ozwozz86: (...) I feel there should be a ban...but also appreciate the affect this can have on small local communities - conservation in my mind can not be successful without local support - it is in fact vital. (...)

=> There should (MUST) be a ban - and the profiting ("eating") countries should pay the money to keep the local - fishing dependent - communities alive. With new ways of breeding fish or other ways to make a living. "WE", the rich people in Europe and USA, MUST pay for what we are doing and did wrong. In my opinion there is no other solution. 2010: we are looking at the edge of disaster. (And I'm afraid my grandchildren will agree - because we didn't do what we had to do).

henrik



Joined: 01/10/2009
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
02/04/2010 23:59

the idea of greenpeace is quite good. you declare a protected area - lets say between cyprus and turkey. The fish will recover in this area quite fast. As the fish recovers they will swim out of these protected area as the "hood" gets too small. now all the fishermen which fish around these protected areas, are supplied with plenty of fish. this is already beeing practised in some USA coastal reagions with great results and great recovery of the marine life. everywhere in the world we need protected areas to give the fish a chance to recover and breed. If we dont do that the fish will disappear much faster from our plates than we think of..

lets hope..

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
03/04/2010 07:53

mahdel, what else would you suggest they spend it on? At least their PR stunts are keeping worl attention on the problem. Who else is actually doing anything? Greenpeace? You might be surprised at the size of some of the salaries of Greenpeace directors, as well as the size of some of the directors themselves.



Were it not for the Sea Shepherd people continuing to put themselves in harm's way, the world would simply turn to another channel.



Unfortunately, your point about ending whaling by ending its market is incorrect, simply because both the main market and the major supplier is the same...Japan.



The cod ban worked exactly because there was a ban...it's a bit hard to compare the two, because Japan simply ignores bans and overfishes their quotas every year by an estimated 50%.



Sometimes handwringing works, but it hasn't so far in the whaling, toothfishing and tuna-catching areas.

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
03/04/2010 08:16

Message 29

Sorry Henrik but it won't work. Bluefin are a migratory fish, they only come to these waters between May and October to breed. Mostly they come from the Atlantic and travel the whole length of the Med.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
03/04/2010 08:49

I also question the motives of Sea Shepard, a theory put about is that they are really just a bunch of people on an adrenaline rush, just there for the kicks.

Similar to the adverts put about that you could charter a cruise around Somalia and if you were attacked the boat had a variety of weapons that you could use against the pirates.



The answer is in education and support for the present fishermen not supporting a load of modern day Rambo's.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/04/2010 10:29

RE msg 29, Henrik: (...) The fish will recover in this area quite fast. (...)

=> I wonder and have some doubt about this "fast recovery". In the past 30-40 years there have been two seven year bans on herring fishing in the North Sea. How long will it take for Bluefins to recover if the world stops catching them now (theory, I know, just asking out of interest)?

P.S. I'm not a marine biologist, but met a lot of them (specialisation: North Sea) working for the Dutch government. They were never optimistic about the political measures taken on a national scale or in Brussels - it was always an inadequate compromise, they said. And in the case of the Bluefins even inadequate measures are not in sight.

P.P.S. I have made up my mind now: I agree with Green Peace but will support Sea Shepherds. Their actions will not damage the Bluefins, I think they are brave people (and "Todays 'terrorists' may be the saviours of the Bluefins tomorrow..?").

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
03/04/2010 12:56

It might be a theory put about by certain people, Hippo, but I met five of them off the Steve Irwin one day in Fremantle, and I can at least attest to their committment to marine conservation. My only "support" was to buy them a round, but I agreed with their attitude and actions...at least they were trying to do something positive.



I've already said I accept the position of local fishing communities, as I do even the Cape Verde Islanders who still go out killing whales in a semi-traditional way. None of these people are taking obscene amounts of whales, toothfish or tuna for the pleasure and profit of Japan.



But I also maintain that pontificating about education and public awareness-raising, which has been ongoing now for how many decades, has had zero effect.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
05/04/2010 08:24

I do not think or agree that their actions are positive, foolhardy dangerous and egotistical yes.



They are in fact pursing ECO terrorism, and putting the lives of innocent seamen and woamen at risk.



Will they support the family of say a fisherman who is only doing a job who they harm or kill in thier pursuit of their own so called ideals.



They are no better than the G9 demonstrators who motives and actions are very much suspect-Anarchy



If they want to do something positive it is through financial support, international lobbying and education.



I still maintain they are a bunch of egocentric middle class spoilt children.



They are no better than the Swampy's and the Greenham common demonstrators who lived in a bender for a couple of days and then went home to their suburban detached home and church on Sundays.



Sorry I agree wholeheartly about marine conservation but not doing it this way.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
05/04/2010 08:48

RE msg 35, Hippo: (...) Will they support the family of say a fisherman who is only doing a job who they harm or kill in thier pursuit of their own so called ideals. (...)

=> It's not the simple fishermen of this world, doing a job like it has been done for centuries, who endanger species. These fishermen are often also victims. So I don't think the Sea Shepherds target 'a fisherman who is only doing a job'. They target the large scale robbers who don't give a d*mn about treaties, conservation and what have you.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
05/04/2010 10:08

Hans- I agree the wholesale rape of the oceans by the large corporations and not only by the Japanese, Portuguese seine netters caused devastation in the North Sea are legitimate targets.

The flaw is, the crews of these boats are innocent men/women doing a job it is not the fat cats in thier Ivory towers that are in the front line.



If the conservationists want to target them, they have my wholehearted support



I still question the reasons behind why some people do what they do, they,in many cases,have fought a variety of causes from save the whale to ban the bomb, animal vivisection to free school dinners.



The buzz doing it is the most important.



I have demonstrated i stood on the line with the miners and the dockers.

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
05/04/2010 11:10

OK Hippo, you've redeemed yourself. I'm a died-in-the-wool Dockers fan too.



Did you see they killed Essendon yesterday, and sit 2nd on the table?

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
06/04/2010 08:17

I see the thread has now exhausted itself, all that remains is to see if the powers that be will realise the Worlds resources are not finite, and do something to secure a future for our children and thier children.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/04/2010 09:03

I know of course that we cannot save species on this board, but I'm very pleased that we - for a change - in this thread discussed a subject without turning it in a slanging match, name calling or nasty and unnecessary 'personal messages'. Opinions were exchanged as grown ups and I for one was interested to read and learn something from them. We may try it again in other serious threads.

frankedad


Joined: 21/11/2008
Posts: 346

Message Posted:
07/04/2010 09:01

my knowledge is limited but i had heard that last year a ban was put in place to stop the huge fishing traps that were placed accross the migratory routes of the tuna off of malta sicily italy and spain , these were i thought the main tuna threat by ambushing all the tuna before they got to there spawning areas off our coast between us and turkey. i am going to look on internet for this ruling, but if any one knows a link. as for jap tuna boats in the med .. this must not be