Turkey to blame for killing protestors

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
25/06/2008 17:53

Turkey liable for demonstrators’ deaths

By Jean Christou Cyprus Mail Internet Edition 25th June 2008



ANKARA has been ordered to pay hundreds of thousands of euros in compensation to the families of two Greek Cypriots after the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) found Turkey responsible for their deaths.



Tassos Isaak and Solomos Solomou were killed by Turkish forces and Turkish Cypriot police during separate anti-occupation demonstrations in Dherynia in August 1996.



On August 11, Isaak was beaten to death inside the buffer zone by a gang that included three Turkish Cypriot police officers.



Three days later, during a demonstration following his funeral, Solomou was shot five times as he climbed a Turkish flagpole



Not only did the ECHR conclude that both men were deliberately targeted and killed unjustifiably, and that the Turkish authorities failed to investigate, but Turkey’s arguments to the court contained blatant lies.





Turkey claimed that Solomou was killed in the crossfire between both sides when there was no evidence at all that any shots had been fired from the Greek Cypriot side, or that any of the demonstrators there were armed.



However, the evidence proved that all five bullets taken from Solomou’s body were of a type used by Turkish and Turkish Cypriot forces, and that he was deliberately aimed at from several sources on the Turkish-controlled side of the buffer zone.



“The Court is unable to accept the respondent government's version of the facts on this point,” the judgement said.



“It is worth noting that the victim was hit by five bullets, a fact which is hard to reconcile with the theory that his shooting was not intentional.”



Solomou, who climbed the flagpole unarmed and smoking a cigarette, was not a threat to anyone, the court concluded, and could easily have been apprehended when he descended.



“The opening of fire was totally unwarranted and not even preceded by a warning shot,” the court said.



In Isaak’s case, Turkey claimed he had died during a skirmish between demonstrators from both sides, and that his death could not be prevented at the time by the Turkish and Turkish Cypriot authorities.



Evidence showed that three uniformed Turkish Cypriot police officers took part in the beating.



It also claimed the skirmishes happened when Greek Cypriot demonstrators crossed in the occupied areas, even though Isaak was killed 32 metres away from the Turkish ceasefire line.



“The Court is unable to accept the respondent government's version of facts… it observes that it is contradicted by the witness statements,” said the court, referring to what happened to the unarmed demonstrator as a “savage beating”.



“Far from attempting to stop the beating and to protect Mr Isaak's life, these soldiers actively participated in the mob.” UN troops had even tried to stop the Turkish Cypriot officers involved, it added.



The court awarded a total in compensation and legal costs of €227,000 to the family of Tassos Isaak and a total of €137,000 to the family of Solomos Solomou.



Turkey must pay within three months.



2 SOLOMOU AND OTHERS v. TURKEY JUDGMENT



SOLOMOU AND OTHERS v. TURKEY JUDGMENT 1









Copyright © Cyprus Mail 2008

Hilltop



Joined: 28/04/2008
Posts: 636

Message Posted:
25/06/2008 18:23

A 12 year old incident, however wrong/tragic, is just that, 12 years old.

Littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
25/06/2008 18:45

and the slaughter of indigenous indians aborgines and mowories is acceptable ???



The past is the past just like dads army.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 00:35

"A 12 year old incident, however wrong/tragic, is just that, 12 years old."



Absolutely, but the ECHR judgement has just been handed down which is why it's back in the public eye. Funnily enough, some people have no problem casting back to 1963 or 1974 when it suits them, but are strangely reluctant to talk about a more recent atrocity that was beamed live around the world. I think the judgement speaks for itself.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 08:41

A flag as a symbol of a nation carries different weight with different nations. The Americans are happy to wear knickers with their flag on it. The Turks prosecuted an artist for kicking a balloon on stage with the Turkish flag on it!!!



It was a savage killing no doubt but it was done in an atmosphere of war. The Greek Cypriot mob were trying to flout the border and the authority of TRNC. The end result was very effective and put a stop to similar attempts. Will Turkey accept this judgement and pay? I am almost certain they will not which will show once again that political disagreements cannot be solved in courts.

ismet

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 09:43

elko,



you said in your beautiful english what i wanted to say in french !!! i remember that day i was in girne and i saw the shooting of the man climbing to the flag - no surprise at all - flag is the symbol of a nation and it is worst when the 2 parts fought against each other -

and what about some many people who disapear in 63 when war started, and 74 !!! do not touch a flag - turkish - american - greek .... are very nationalists so "do not do the others what you wouldn't do for yourself "

Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 10:08

Very informative, yet showing an undeniable ignorance by the author of the original message, unless he was at the scene at the time the events took place he should refrain from using other people biased literature to make a point that he can't personally validate. can I suggest that instead of copying and pasteing someone else news story, that PtePike went out on the streets and talked to the people involved and maybe his conclusions might be of his own making and more realistic.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 11:18

Elko,



The flag argument doesn't wash. I'm well aware of the importance of the symbol, but if Turkey wants to be considered part of the civilised world it should hand over the murderers and also obey the judgement of the court. These killings are a lasting stain on Turkey and the TRNC.



I respect you for conceding they were "savage killings" but to justify them by claiming there was an "atmosphere of war" is not correct. It was a demonstration. The war ended in 1974. Three uniformed TC policemen were pictured beating a man to death on the ground. Where is the justification for that? An unarmed man climbs up a flagpole and gets shot dead. Is that war - or murder? The court has returned its verdict.



I realise morality comes in short supply in certain places but I'm saddened that people who should know better have yet to find their voice.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 11:19

sylvie and Aslan,



Great posts. Very self-revealing!



Cheers.

markkp



Joined: 27/02/2007
Posts: 41

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 11:49

To shoot anyone over a piece of material that any nation calls a flag is idiotic, and before anyone gets on ther high horse and wants to leacture me about that, I spent 14 years in the UK miltary in places like Northern Ireland, Iraq and Bosnia, Kosvo etc (And yes we had our fair share on incidents which some we still have to answer for), I have seen union jacks torn down and defiled and experinced the best and worst humantiy has to offer. Yes it sickend me but to shoot someone over a flag (never mind shoot them 5 times with no warning shots or order) is pure unproffesional and in my view the North's Army and Police are poorly trained as these acts show, No escaltion of force measures, such as issuing a clear warning twice, using minium force necessary to resolve the incident, firing well aimed shots and no more shots than necessary, these are basic procedures used in most life threating incidents, and where the Turkish soliders or Police officers life threated , I very much doubt.



If the North Cypriots what to be on a equal footing with the South then this compension should be paid, how can they take money from the UN in grants to rebuild Girne etc and then decide not to pay compension when they are found in the wrong, Maybe the UN should just halt any grants to TRNC in the future. Im sure if the shoe was on the other foot, they would be screaming about how those horrible Greeks and defiled there natiolism etc... so come on get a grip we are in the 21 st centrury not the middle ages. and that go's for both sides, you want peace, PROVE IT.....

Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 12:00

It would be nice to have a small portfolio for PtePike, maybe some other members can shed some light.



What nationality is he/her?

Does he/she live in Cyprus? (where)

Is he/she an member or ex-member of the British Armed Forces?

Was he/she here during the mid 1970's?

does he/she consider peace as an option for the citizens of Cyprus?

does he/she suffer from long and short term memory loss?

Hilltop



Joined: 28/04/2008
Posts: 636

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 12:08

Better to just ignore him, he hates that.



You are only feeding his ego.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 12:35

Hmm,



The demonising and attempted marginalising of another member just because his views (international and European law) - posted in a civilised manner - don't conform with those of a VERY small group. Most right-thinking people would be left wondering what sort of person would not condemn out of hand acts of cold-blooded murder.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 12:41

markkp,



Top post, buddy. Reflects all that is good in deed and thought by a former professional of the British Armed Forces. Something needed to be said. Some of the other stuff I've read is unbelievable. People go to jail for harbouring murderers where I come from.

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 12:54

Elko and Sylvie:

Could not agree with you any more.

PtePike:

Flag is a national pride and if anyone tries to insult it in a way as to try to bring it down then they have to accept the consequences.

Markkp:

Your comments that say

" issuing a clear warning twice, using minium force necessary to resolve the incident, firing well aimed shots and no more shots than necessary, these are basic procedures used in most life threating incidents"

reminded me of a very recent incident in London about the Argentinian killing that happened in the tube. Mr Demenez. This innocent person has done nothing wrong and was blasted in the head with 7 bullets.

After which all policeman who shot this person was cleared.

So your high opinions of 21st century and civilised world does not wash very well I am afraid. (Double standards again. Cold blooded murder)

Hilltop



Joined: 28/04/2008
Posts: 636

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 13:00

He was Brazilian, and even the anti Police IPCC could not show criminal intent. Do you know something they don't?

Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 14:16

I recall an event in Gibraltar concerning members of the SAS killing 4 or 5 Members of the IRA and using over 200 rounds in the assualt, on being asked why they had used so many rounds by their commander in chief they replied "its all we had sir"

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 14:38

BIKER,



i agree with elko about the national feeling for flag - with what don't you agree with with me ?

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 18:01

Sylvie

I said I did agree with you.



Hilltop

Argentinian or Brazilian? What does it matter? He was an innocent human who was not a threat at all to anybody, and was gunned down without asking any questions.



Same way as all the soldiers who were torturing the Iraqies in prisons and then most of them not being found quilty in their courts.



Biker

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 19:55

biker,



could not agree with you any more " means you agree with me !!! sorry i understood the oposite - i would have say with my frenglish " could not agree more with you !!! terrible isn't it ?

raybo


Joined: 06/08/2007
Posts: 175

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 20:33

Pte pike,

why are you so anti turkey, and nc ? one question would you like to see a settlement to the cyprus problem ? straight forward yes or no!!!!!.

gottheyips


Joined: 28/12/2007
Posts: 444

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 20:48

marrkp/PtePike,

have to say I see you both as s..t stirrers, both 38 years old born 1980 ish, seen nothing of the troubles in Cyprus very self opinionated accusing all and sundry of taking sides, whats your game?

brandy sour


Joined: 09/04/2008
Posts: 310

Message Posted:
26/06/2008 21:31

I remember the year 1996 we where on the south side then and seeing it on the news &in papers at the time i thought it was sad and very upsetting watching the violence on BOTH sides of the wire.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 00:12

marrkp/ptepike,



don't quite see where you are "coming from"

if you are trying to imply that turks are violent and irrational

I can only say nearly everybody I have met in uk finds them

friendly and hospitable and proud as well

of course there are always good and bad pennies

as the ikea tyre slashing and repair saga strongly implies

more to the point, if you are a gc why not come clean

and have an honest dialogue? it would be far more productive

the gc's are indeed victims as your typing job seems to imply,

but not of the tc's, the turks or the army

but of their own hotheads

who screwed things up for the whole island all those years ago...

don't you think so?



andre

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 00:53

Biker,



"Flag is a national pride and if anyone tries to insult it in a way as to try to bring it down then they have to accept the consequences."



You are joking, I take it. When I was a little boy we used to play "King of the Castle" and pretend to shoot attackers with our toy guns if they tried to grab our flag. Then we grew up. Sadly, the Turkish forces on duty that day showed themselves to the world as a murderous and undisciplined rabble. An international court has now agreed Turkish culpability for these killings. I don't know whether you have ever been in uniform, but when I served, both I and my men were subject to civil and military law as well as the Yellow Card rules of engagement. What happened that day near Derinya was akin to the actions of some Third World despot's thuggish militia - which in some ways they were.



I take it you will be writing to the ECHR as well as the national media where you are in London expressing your disgust at the verdict.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 00:57

gottheyips,



If you think I'm 38 and thereby draw the conclusion I was born 1980-ish, are you worthy of serious debate?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 01:01

"Pte pike, why are you so anti turkey, and nc ? one question would you like to see a settlement to the cyprus problem ? straight forward yes or no!!!!!."



Raybo,



In your book, does agreeing with the verdict of an international court make me anti Turkey and NC? There is a lot of paranoia in NC - just read some of the posts. Do you know anything about me or my background in Cyprus? The answer to your question is yes, BTW.

Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 10:15

PtePike,

First and foremost you and your men could never have followed the Geneva Convention based on a "yellow" card as the rules of engagement for the Armed Forces is carried on a "green" card which thus prooves you haven't got an effing clue what you are talking about.

Hilltop



Joined: 28/04/2008
Posts: 636

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 10:45

During my (too)many tours of Northern Ireland, it was always a yellow card. I think a green card could have been seen as insensitive.

Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 11:07

Or very difficult to find in the field of combat!!!

raybo


Joined: 06/08/2007
Posts: 175

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 12:17

pte pike,

dont know anything about you, not realy interested about you, just read all the different blogs and all you seem to do is be very negative about turkey and nc,you have a right to express your own feelings, lets hope one day all is settled and everyone can move forward, raybo.

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 12:25

PtePike

I have been in uniform and a lot earlier than yourself I believe.

As a Turkish person we are thought to guard our flag with our lives as it is the pride of a nation.

I do not know what you guys do when someone comes and tries to take your flag down in a provocative way.



Maybe you just hand it over.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 12:52

Raybo,



No problem. It's easy enough when reading different threads to lose some of the interpretation.

Rogerdodger


Joined: 24/04/2008
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 12:58

Biker,



We are as proud of our flag as you are, we have proctected our flag in many conflicts, in many countries.



please engage brain before making silly comments

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 13:08

Biker,



There's always been a fine tradition of going into battle with standards and flags flying. One of the biggest prizes for the enemy was to seize these emblems. But this died out in the 19th century as professional soldiers concentrated (sensibly) on fightingthe enemy (not civilians) and surviving the fight. This is the 21st century and the threat of global terrorsim ranks somewhat higher than "protecting a flag" by murdering an unarmed man.



You ask what we would do (maybe you too as I assume you are as much a British citizen as I am) if someone tried to take down our flag. Well, most of us would probably think: "Some cheeky b*stard's nicking our flag!" The person would probably be detained and charged with intent to steal and/or breach of the peace then released pending a summons. The liklihood is the prosecution would take no proceedings and the guy would get a warning letter. A bit different from killing a guy in cold blood, isn't it?



I think the problem with many people as they get further away from Cyprus is they become more nationalistic. You say you are Turkish but aren't you a Cypriot first? This outdated attitude is a barrier to settlement, although admittedly you are Londrali and play no part in the future of your original country.

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 15:09

PtePike

The demonstrations in Dherynia in August 1996 was not a normal innocent person to take a flag down as you put it, so that you could send him a summons and take him to court. It was a riot situation of hundreds coming to the border and provocating to cross it.

At the time border could not be crossed as it is now. Therefore a completely different situation altogether.



Rogerdodger

Thank you for supporting my thoughts. That is what I am talking about.

Hot Hornet


Joined: 03/06/2008
Posts: 343

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 16:09

Whilst I don't condone the killing of people, I understand totally the mentality of protecting your countries flag - to some nations it means life itself. Perhaps thats why the British are a bunch of nancy weaklings these days - a loss of social pride and no sense of what it is to love your country. I hated Maggie T but christ did she get the country going over The Falklands.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 16:54

Biker,



The bloke who shinned up the flagpole was acting ALONE and was NOT part of a riot situation. Yet he was shot in cold blood by people who clearly should not be allowed near firearms. Can you justify that?



The guy who was beaten to death by uniformed TC police was ALONE and helpless on the ground as they killed him. Are you justifying that?



Interesting you gave the Greek spelling of the locus while I used Turkish, but no biggie.

happydude


Joined: 27/06/2008
Posts: 1

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 22:45

The guy probably got up in the morning, wife had p**sed him off, kids had p**sed him off and the mother-in-law got on his case, he was well depressed and probably thought, "I'll go to the border and commit suicide".



So, the reason why he got shot was his own fault.



PtePike



Best Regards,



HappyDude, GreenLanes

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
27/06/2008 23:03

Think there is some confusion here! There is a real difference between Patriotism and Nationalism. The patriot is proud of his country for what it does. The nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does. The first is an attitude that should create a feeling of responsibility but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that can lead to death and war.

Very few Brits are "nancy weaklings" HH they are just becoming a more enlightened society that refuse to fight wars for unscrupulous, dishonest, power crazy politicans. Nobody can justify the taking of a life for "disrespecting" a flag. It just cannot be justified under any circumstances. Life is the most precious of all.

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 05:50

I agree with you there Bradus. Thatcher's war was on a 3rd rate nation which

had no chance - big deal. She boasted about sinking the Belgrano which was

actually receding from the area of conflict.

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 05:58

The terrible incident of the de Menendez should not have happened. It would

not have done if a certain woman had informed the police of her husband's intent to kill innocent people on a London subway, as had been done before

If those police thought they were protecting folk from being blown to smithereens they would have been critisized if they had not acted in the face of

further terrorist attacks. (He would also still be alive if he had returned home when his visa expired) However, it will always be a horrible mistake.

Hilltop



Joined: 28/04/2008
Posts: 636

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 06:46

Sorry Phylray, I can't agree about the Falklands. Argentina may have been a third rate Nation but they had spent a lot of money on first rate weapons (may explain why they were a third rate Nation?)



They had ample time to dig in and fortify the place. They had a 3 to 1 advantage in men (conventional military wisdom is that the ATTACKING side should have a 3 to 1 advantage).



The conflict was on their doorstep and many thousands of miles away for us.



It was miracle, bought about by determined men who were well led.

markkp



Joined: 27/02/2007
Posts: 41

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 08:43

Sorry not got back sooner on this lively debate, but just been for my weekly brain washing by Greek Cyps based here in Baghdad, before going home for a rest to Kyerniea in North Cyprus ;-)



I have greek cypriot friend who tells me that yes some their children are still taught by the older genretion that the North is a Bogey man. as andre 514 says ' there are bad pennies evrywhere"



Hilltop



well said mate on the faklands confilct those guys did an outstanding professional job, Have been there and to see the ground that those Guys fought over makes you shiver.....and talk to the islanders and ask them if they want to to Argentiian or British...



Aslan



Sorry mate Numerous tours of Northern Ireland it was always the well worn yellow card, followed by the green followed by the blue.....if not answer to the flying lawyer...

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/glossary.htm



gottheyips



"S**t stirrer" that is your opion matey and you are welcome to it in a free society, you are right I have not seen any of the troubles in Cyprus (far too young being 38 and being born in the 1980's..?... 2008 - 38yrs = 1970, but thanks for the compliment I always get told I look younger...) but does that mean I should not have an opinion? which is my opinion only, not forced upon others but voiced in a debate, to lower to the level of name calling etc is like being 13 again or even worse a politican....



Biker



as I said in my firts post "And yes we had our fair share on incidents which some we still have to answer for" with regards to incident in the British miltary and police, But to even compare those incidents (The tragic Shooting of the Brazillian Jean Charles de Menezes, and Killing of proven and identified 3 IRA terrosits by the regiment in Gib) to a guy shinning up a falg pole or Tassos Issak who was beaten to death by officers with batons ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Buffer_Zone_in_Cyprus) is in my view not the same.



Do I agree turkey had a right to help and intervene in 1974 after its citizens (Along with Brit soliders) where being killed by greek terriosts, Yes I do



Do I agree with verdict passed down by the UN in refreance to those killed in the incident discussed, Yes I do,



Mark 38 Ex Britsih serviceman living in Kyernia N Cyprus (so andre 514 you know who I am, what I am and where I am)

Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 10:44

Thanks Markkp, I swear my husband had a green card! and I spoke last night to two ex servicemen both RAF and they both agreed that they had a green card.

You can according to their green card shoot a person who is about to launch a petrol bomb, shoot anyone who threatens the lives of service personnel and its establishments, you can not shoot up at a parachutist in flight as its not deemed as fair game!..........................................................................

Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 10:51

Markkp you are correct that all British Soldiers serving in NORTHERN IRELAND were issued with a "yellow card" detailing the rules of engagement for that particular theatre of war. However the standard issue for all servicemen is in fact as I correctly stated the "green card" rules of engagement.



Thanks in advance



Aslan

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 12:49

Aslan,



Smoke and mirrors come to mind. Good try though.



If the Turkish Cypriot leadership wants to be taken seriously it will hand over for trial the killers you seek to protect. The fact is that the killers will never be handed over because the Turkish Cypriot police are part of the Turkish army - and as such are totally unaccountable to the Turkish Cypriot people. So the general staff will do as they please, which is unacceptable in any democracy. I support Turkey's right under the Treaty of Guarantee to invade and intervene in 1974. However, after 34 years they are hardly an aid to civil power and are now seen as ruling force (ask a TC who "The Governer" is and the chances is he'll laugh and tell you it's the Turkish Ambassador). As long as unruly, poorly trained and badly led soldiers are allowed access to loaded firearms they will continue to disgrace their uniform - and killings like these may reoccur.

markkp



Joined: 27/02/2007
Posts: 41

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 15:48

Aslan.



Please dont see this as attack upon yourself (dont have my rules of engement for that ;-)...Pun intended)



If you wont take my word for it here's a bit of resarch. The internet is a great tool isnt it???



British Army soldiers are trained in Northern Ireland to a required standard called the Yellow Card. This specifies when minimum force can be used and when lethal force can be used as a last resort. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/383102.stm)





The "Yellow Card" that each British soldier carried, permitting his use of deadly force, would not apply in such circumstances.Similar Yellow Card provisions limiting the use of deadly force to self-defense were to become part of U.S. military doctrine in operations other than war

( http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?9+Duke+J.+Gender+L.+&+Pol'y+271)



It was the same with the ‘yellow card’ procedure: no British soldier could shoot or return fire unless they first shouted out a warning printed on a silly little yellow card. ( http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/intern/docs/derrick02.htm)



The Yellow Card

The rules relating to the use of force were contained in the Yellow Card. It provides a guide to soldiers on when they can open fire and each soldier would carry a copy of the Card. It had last been revised in November 1971. The rules allow a soldier to proceed on the basis of circumstances, as he believed them to be. The rules do not allow firing above the heads of a hostile crowd.

( http://www.birw.org/bsireports/1_10/report1.html)







(Wilkepdiea)

A number of small information cards were carried by each soldier to assist in the execution of his duties. These were generally referred to by their colour.



The Yellow Card was a list of the rules for opening fire.

The Blue Card was a detailed explanation of how arrests were to be made.

The White Card was to be given to next of kin or other appropriate person in the event of an arrest of a suspect.

The Green Card carried instructions on how to deal with accidental cross-border incursion into the Irish Republic and subsequent arrest by Irish security forces.

The Red Card contained instructions on how to summon helicopter support and the drills for entering and leaving helicopters.







These cards pretain to N Ireland only, and during other confilcts rules of engemanet are always presented to the British military, in some card form During Kosvo they where green, Bosina White, etc etc...But the famous one will be the Yellow as it has been used in one form or another since 1969



anyway I think we have gone of track but never mind.

Rogerdodger


Joined: 24/04/2008
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 15:48

Ladies,



This is getting fiesty, chill out! we cannot undo what is done, no matter what the individual opinions are, some people call them killers, others call them hero's, depends on the individual's preception of the incident





RD

gottheyips


Joined: 28/12/2007
Posts: 444

Message Posted:
28/06/2008 20:46

markkp



with reference to your age I made a basic mistake in my counting and subtraction for that I stand corrected. Like those in the past that have used spelling errors in an attempt to belittle is in itself not very clever. I was however sorely tempted with your spelling!!!.

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
29/06/2008 01:10

Hilltop

I agree with you that our troops did a good job & personally glad as we

have kith & kin there, even though so far away. I did not like the way Thatcher

boasted about sinking the Belgrano with a loss of over 300 men. Was that necessary when it was moving away?

Dave_Poweeeer


Joined: 17/06/2008
Posts: 13

Message Posted:
29/06/2008 05:33

That guy was stupid to run through and climb the poll. Look alot of people get killed for doing alot less these days. It all comes down to this... If he hadnt run through for no reason and attempted his rambo climb he would be with us right now to discuss this issue!!

Hilltop



Joined: 28/04/2008
Posts: 636

Message Posted:
29/06/2008 14:22

Phylray, The PM at the time was asked for permission to sink the Belgrano By Admiral Woodward. She probably knew that ships had rudders, so agreed. Imagine the outcry if she had said no and the Belgrano had sunk British ships.



When we sank the Bismark in WW2 it was trying to get away. I have not heard of any complaints from that time, even though the loss of life was huge. War is hell!



She may have been insensitive, but it is very difficult to second guess the decision.

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
29/06/2008 19:30

Well, Hilltop, I will second that sentiment at least "War is hell"

My father was a (boy) soldier in WW1 as was my maternal grandfather &

uncle, so I have heard about it first hand.

Hilltop



Joined: 28/04/2008
Posts: 636

Message Posted:
29/06/2008 19:32

There is nothing like being there