why is it the planes cannot fly above the cloud of dust

sweep


Joined: 11/10/2007
Posts: 241

Message Posted:
16/04/2010 21:38

maybe a daft question but each day i have looked above manchester and cannot see any clouds of dust and have been wondering why carnt the planes fly above the dust clouds and continue as usuall.





serious answers please

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
16/04/2010 21:40

Because it would be to Sooty Sweep )

Navek



Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 2656

Message Posted:
16/04/2010 21:41

Simple. if they fly above, the have to re-enter the dust cloud, that's when the sh!t hits the fan.

Navek

sweep


Joined: 11/10/2007
Posts: 241

Message Posted:
16/04/2010 21:43

i knew it cause a few giggles love the answers serious or not, keep them coming.

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
16/04/2010 21:44

Cooper



I've told you before - you get a bloody sight worse



Made me chuckle.



J

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
16/04/2010 21:47

O.K. let's do the 'serious' bit. I believe that to get up to 30,000 feet, one must fly through the dust which is around 20,000 and sinking. When one does that then the s.... does not hit the fan but gets into the engine. Sadly this can cause the engine to fail and the plane will crash killing everyone on board.



Apart from that, there is no reason not to!!!!

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
16/04/2010 21:49

MarieB; the fan is the twirly bit in front of the engine.



So what Navek says is technically correct!

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
16/04/2010 21:49

Pilots run into 'angel dust' and then they just go higher and higher until getting some 'moon dust' and just can't come down again!



Richard

sweep


Joined: 11/10/2007
Posts: 241

Message Posted:
16/04/2010 21:49

no wonder i cannot see the dust at 20,000ft,



should have gone to spec savers

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
16/04/2010 21:56

Thanks for reminding me about the 'fan' at the front. So, I bow to your superior knowledge. But of course it is where it goes after the fan that matters isn't it.

What is REALLY sad is that there is to be a Wedding on Monday, and most of the guests can't, as yet, get out here. They were due to fly the other day. But whatever happens, they will have a good story to tell their grandchildren.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
16/04/2010 23:05

The volcanic ash dust dust gets sucked into the planes' turbines at enormous volume and velocity - remember these turbines rev at 44- 60 - 80 rpm! The dust is micronised pumice - highly abrasive; so, it's like aiming a sandblaster at the intake of the engine - graunch, grind, graunch - then, suddenly, the turbine flies to bits - good when your just enjoying joining the 'Mile High Club'!

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
16/04/2010 23:15

Thanks Tenakoutou, I guess not many people want to join the 'Almost Mile hIGH cLUB' or the 'Now half mile club' or even 'The Flat Earth Society' so it is no wonder that the planes remain grounded!

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 00:24

Fly a jet at no more than 5000 feet above sea level across the Mediterranean into the Atlantic to the English Channel, up the Thames and land in Slough! Job done except for the huge usage of kerosene (jet fuel) and awaiting bill!



Richard

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 00:28

did google earth predict this xx, had so many customers who cant fet back, some were lucky ebough to stay in thier rented villas , what about the poor souls around the world you cant do this xxx

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 00:32

Liz

I have a spare room for anyone who is stranded, but she has to be attractive!

Airports around Europe are camp sites.



Richard

Blackbird



Joined: 11/08/2009
Posts: 1432

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 00:37

To go up you have to fly through a layer of dust, and it's the same to come back down. A lot of the dust is like particles of glass, and to say the least that screws up the twisty bits of a jet engine...

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 00:47

why not make it a serious question in the first place is there any hope for us humans with questions like this

sweep


Joined: 11/10/2007
Posts: 241

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 00:56

rocky



it was a serious question.

Soupseed


Joined: 30/11/2009
Posts: 101

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 01:17

its stealth dust!

it dont show up on the radar

so they wont know where it is exactly

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 01:39

Msg 19

Bet it shows up on your next tax return!

Pollution tax!



Richard

Navek



Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 2656

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 03:22

Hi sweep,



Here's your answer, check out the pilot with the "Workshop Manual"....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slmt8CIrTEw&NR=1



Navek

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 09:27

well the answer is they can fly above but here are some questions for you sweep, how do they get up there? do you know of a runway built at 30000 feet? and another one which may help you understand, at some time the plane will need to land again.....so that means it has to come down....

kavenkoy


Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 1787

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 12:18

ok so i can understand the dust shuts the engines down ....so i was watching sky tv last night and here "live " from the volcano is some metreologists flying over the crator in a plane....they are supposed to be clever guys ?



why would,they fly over and around the airspace if it stops engines from working ?.



kav

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 12:36

They were in prop planes.



Richard

kavenkoy


Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 1787

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 12:41

but you would not like to fly ,prop or jet planes into this dust would you richards ?



kav

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 12:55

There is a rumour that they are turning off the Icelandic volcano after the presidential elections tomorrow. More seriously - how do they actually stop it belching out dust so flights can return to normal???

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 13:03

As a rule you would avoid flying into a corrosive or abrasive area or driving, walking in or over one.

Fans in jet turbines are propellers but of a different nature and I would guess the crew would look after and have spare props for old fahioned aircraft. These aircraft would not be "turbo prop" either. A rocket might be safe as far as the engine is concerned only but I have no idea what other navigation hazards there might be - possibly radio/radar/altimeters/GPS would not work or worse give false readings

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2918

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 13:10

For those that might be genuinly interested I could talk about the fundamentals and principles of turbine engines and characteristics for hours but you would probably be bored senseless very quickly.



In simple terms as mentioned above turbines take extreme mass volumes of air and compress it and then mix the compressed air with fuel where it is ignited and the expansive force of the air and fuel mixture creates massive thrust which pushes the aircraft forward. At the same time the thrust fiorce creates self sustaining rotary force on the turbine blades which is how it keeps the compressor spinning to have the correct air/fuel mixture. If you block the air paths then you loose compression and then you have no thrust which will cause the engine to stall, not good at any thousands of feet.



As for the stated speeds above, not sure if I read that correctly because the rotation speed of a turbine is usually in the 8000 to 1000 RPM range. It is restricted by the tips of the blades not

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2918

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 13:18

cont.

not reaching a movement speed of the speed of sound. Depending on the tip radius times the rotational speed you can reach this and then have sonic vibration.

The abrasive nature of the dust would indeed be very destructive to the turbine blades coating but this would not be expected to have an immediate effect however if you were to imagine that someone blocked the air intake of your car with very heavy sand the car would stall almost immediately and as an aero type turbine does not even have filtration it would be catastrophic.



There is also the same effect on a turbo-prop engine which as the name states has a propellor and a turbine in dual effort.

A true propellor type engine has a filtered air delivery system and normally a reciprocating engine or piston type which operates using the otto cycle which although safer in this scenario, I would not be up there unless I had too.



Hope that helps in a small way.



Paul (Turbine Engineer)

sweep


Joined: 11/10/2007
Posts: 241

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 16:10

rocky



you are in for a drenching, so beware when sun bathng around swb pool, the kids will be watching you and waiting.

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 17:58

well I hope the planes are flying by then..take care

EssexOB


Joined: 29/06/2007
Posts: 80

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 21:04

With all the wind farms around the UK, they should power them up and turn them into fans, the blow the ash back to Iceland !!!!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
17/04/2010 22:44

Lucky my private plane is a Turbo-prop jobby then!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 10:05

Lucky mine are all model aircraft!

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 10:43

According to the news on Sky this morning , the cloud has now showed up on the Radar

Simbas

yogi1


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 98

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 12:40

with such a stupid question as that your either taking the p......... or your a woman Sweep

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 13:58

Or you're a woman ???

Simbas { a woman by the way }

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 17:55

Oooh! Slap on the wrist Simbas! Correcting somebody's use of English, whatever next?



'Your' vice 'You're' is definitely the second most common grammatical error on this board after 'definately' which isn't a word at all!



I has to laugh the other day to see somebody taking another member to task because their intention was to teach English as a foreign language and their post was full of errors... The laugh was that the complainant spelt grammar... grammer... rofl

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 18:25

...'Your' vice 'You're'...?

'Your' versus 'You're', surely?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 20:42

Surely not Keith... vice = in place of...

sweep


Joined: 11/10/2007
Posts: 241

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 21:20

keith



i am not taking the p%@s and certianly not a female.



it was a serious question as there are planes still flying over where i live even with this cloud of dust.

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 22:36

sweep,

I'm sorry if I appeared to devalue your question- that really wasn't my intention

I thought that it was perfectly valid, and it would seem that some pilots are now asking why they cannot fly at other (lower) altitudes to avoid the ash etc.

I was just crossing swords with Groucho on a point of semantics...

Groucho, you smart arse,

Some days I really hate you...

Other days I just hate you

You might care to infer from the above that I actually looked up the meaning of 'vice'...

Well, that's your privilige, I'm not saying

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 22:40

Oh bugger - privilige = privilege

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 22:43

"Well, that's your privilige, I'm not saying"



What sort of word is privilige?



The privilege is all mine!

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 22:49

I spotted it before you did!

Nah, nah, nah, nah nah!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 23:10

Oh good, you're (not your) not as daft as you look!

sweep


Joined: 11/10/2007
Posts: 241

Message Posted:
18/04/2010 23:46

keith, no probs.