The problem is self opinion IMO

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 12:36

I have seen so many times people being upset because they feel they are insulted for having thier own opinion.

The main problem as I see it (another way of saying in my opinion) is that when you decide to put your opinion on a public forum it is no longer private.

Whether the insults are deserved or not, within the guidelines of morality or not, or just plain rude; you inited the possibility of expressing your opinion in public.

Gordon Brown has just done an extrordinarily good example of this.

I believe he had every right to call someone a bigot if he thought they were a bigot but when it became public it was an insult and due to the nature of the political situation at the moment he had to lie down like a little puppy and get his nose rubbed in it.

So, by all means have an opinion but if you don't want others to knock it and some who feel strongly enough against it to abuse you, don't air it in public.

PS if you write a stupid comment don't be upset when called stupid.

Paul

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 13:38

Momma said;



"Stupid is as Stupid does"



Forest Gump.........

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 18:08

Good post Paul.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 18:26

"So, by all means have an opinion but if you don't want others to knock it and some who feel strongly enough against it to abuse you, don't air it in public. "





Bill I disagree, this line gives carte blanche to abuse... that is not acceptable.. is it?



They should be free to argue against you view but to say it's OK to abuse is not right...

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 18:41

Gavin. Of course I would never condone abuse on here. If people feel the need to abuse then contact the person off forum and do it. I can't administer what people do off the forum and I certainly wouldn't condone anyway.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 19:00

Abuse is never acceptable on this or any other forum.



If you have an opposite viewpoint then argue your case, using abuse is to me showing a clear lack of intelligence and ability to discuss sensibly. If that is the case then this sort of person does not belong on this forum.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 19:05

The way I see it is this. All of us have an opinion - we wouldn't be human if we didn't have an opinion. We read articles and listen to the radio or watch tv, all the time forming an opinion. We try to express our opinions in a way that we feel would not upset others. However we are not all the same hence dome people are more forceful in expressing their opinions than others. Most if the time it makes for good debate and I think we all enjoy reading threads that get a bit 'heated'

the trouble is when the 'heated' gets 'hot' and people try to be more 'forceful' in their posts. This results in using insults and swear words. Granted that the swear words are somewhat camouflaged (as in sh*t) but it is still a swear word. Some people will say "we're all adults", but that's wrong when trying to get an opinion across.

Please for the sake of all the members can everyone remember rule 3. We can all have a great time on here.

juliamoons



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 849

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 19:12

Cyprusishome

I totally agree with you. It is totally unacceptable and any that abuse this moral code should be banned for life. Argue your point sensibly please, as this forum has become hell over the last few weeks. Moderators please stop this happening, get rid of the trouble makers and lets get on with living the dream.

kaiserphil


Joined: 14/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 19:28

Bill, do you not think that sometimes people can become abusive out of sheer frustration because they are being "wound up" by a supercilious idiot, and are unable to have a reasonable debate?

I have seen that many times over the years, and an amazed at how much leeway the "wind-up merchants" are allowed before action is taken about them. I suspect this is because they are personally known to board admin.

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 19:56

So as usual people read into something that is not there.



"So, by all means have an opinion but if you don't want others to knock it and some who feel strongly enough against it to abuse you, don't air it in public."



Read it again, it clearly says, If you don't want: It does not condone it, it does not request or deny it. It is a statement of fact. Bill liked the post and I appreciated that he did so, by abuse I meant (mistreat: treat badly)

but people think they know better than me what I intended and bitch about it. Couldn't you just have asked if I meant a rude expression intended to offend or hurt.



And now because of someones opinion this superfluous nonsense continues. If you have a difference of opinion, why do you feel it is of utmost necessity to voice it on the very same page that you dissagree with.



My opinion is, if people want to argue, then "Let slip the dogs of war." as long as it is within the rules. Stay away if you don't like it, don't make it worse.

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 20:03

A few weeks ago I made a comment about something that had happened at a restaurant, I was immediately picked on by minetor,(and others) I did reply with some abuse and as you say it was out of sheer frustration because what I said was the truth and had happened. I got upset and angry with myself for getting embroiled in the argument and said I would not post on here again, but silly me I did comment on the Gordon Brown posting the other day and what happened, within minutes I got the abuse from minetor again, he is like a dog with a bone, I don't know why he doesn't like me but it appears so. I will keep to what I said in future and not post again as I can do without being "wound up".

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 20:06

"using abuse is to me showing a clear lack of intelligence and ability to discuss sensibly."



What utter codswallop, I have not met many people with the ability to abuse me with a sub standard mentality.



The fact that people choose to give abusive statements as far as I can see is that others refuse to accept that the originator has a different opinion and they get so frustrated as kaiser has stated that they turn to insults to hope the culprit will finally go away. Before you start, I am not saying it is correct to do it, just trying to point out it has nothing to do with intelect, in fact the best arguments I have had on this forum have been with a highly intellectual person and there was plenty of abuse. The difference was that we didn't get childish about it and complain to the mods and as far as I understand others who followed it found it entertaining or stayed away.

I agree that this forum has become hell over the last few weeks because of do gooders wanting thier own way

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 20:19

I am off to the gym now to burn of some of the anger built up in me from continually reading comments from the self styled facists who patrol the boards and think that because it is something that they don't like it should be changed.

I used to enjoy reading peoples comments about restaurants, it gave me some ideas of where to go but now I have to search for information without knowing the exact search word.

All because some people could not find it in thier abilities to just skip over the post they didn't like.

I don't read the posts about people looking for a job in NC because I couldn't advise them but I don't insist that the posting system be changed I just don't read it.

This is not an invite to start all the twaddle again and I apologise for mentioning it.

Happy posting to those that are allowing a free forum, may your index fingers cramp up for those who feel the need to enforce opinions on others.



Arte et marte (by skill and by fighting, just to save a search) Paul

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 20:52

Paul,



I'm confused by the premise of your original post which you now say does not justify abuse... yet that's exactly what it seemed like you were saying to me...



If you are saying don't post your views in public because abuse may follow and should almost be expected, I'm afraid you have a very different view of how this board should be run.... as it is firmly intended (according to Izzet) for people to build a sense of community here. That won't happen if we can have a free exchange of views without abuse.



If rule three means anything it is abuse is NOT tolerated... of course differing views are not abuse. Some people don't like having their posts exposed to scrutiny.. OK, I often do this and get abused for doing it too. I have as far, as I can remember, never abused another member. I do tease people I know well and they tease me back but that's not the same.



I'm not sure why some folk can't take the 'heat' without getting rude...

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 21:06

"That won't happen if we can have a free exchange of views without abuse. "



was meant to read:-



That won't happen if we can't have a free exchange of views without abuse.



Oh mea culpa, I've just remebered, I did call somebody daft as a brush (in my view a minor infraction of rule 3) and got banned for it.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 21:09

kaiserphil. Yes I do feel that people can become abusive out of sheer frustration. However it's the way you deal with the anger caused by frustration. I really don't see the need for people to become abusive.



Is it beacuse they are in cyberspace and have no fear of retaliation? I think it probably is. Most of the people on here who are abusive would probably not be abusive in a face to face situation. I say most because there are some people who thrive on confrontation.

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 22:27

Groucho,

If there is one thing you can be absolutely certain of, I was not saying anything to you (msg 14)



You are like a spoilt child who just keeps going on and on as if you expect me to change to your opinion if you try hard enough. I am all for differences of opinion but they should just stay as that, differences.

I know exactly what I meant when I wrote the post, you don't and yet after self admitting you are confused about it you push on it.

The premise of my original post is that if you want to avoid being offended, do not post something that has the potential for abuse, for some reason you seem to feel that you have to join the band wagon against people when it doesn't involve you or need you.

Perhaps the ban was not for the comment but just a reason to ban you for being so frikin irritating.

I am going through something similar with my 16 year old daughter, she has to have the last word as you did the last time we conversed, so help yourself I'm done with you.

Paul

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 23:13

Paul,



"If there is one thing you can be absolutely certain of, I was not saying anything to you (msg 14)"



Well you are the one pointing out that it's a public board and users must be prepared to take stick... but as soon as I post you take offence and start with the insults... "You are like a spoilt child" and the like.



To be honest, I don't think you want to discuss anything... you seem to be the one with issues. You should take your own advice.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
30/04/2010 23:35

RE msg 18, Groucho: I must "congratulate" you. In the past five years, on several boards - if you were not banned - you have not changed at all. You have not learned a thing. If you'd ever care to look in a mirror you'd even disagree with the man you'd see there. Your self-importance is more than normal - it needs some medical care.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
01/05/2010 06:31

Dutch, I won't dignify your post with much of a rebuttal save to say the obvious irony in your posting won't be lost on many other than Paul and your good self. Thank god when I look in the mirror, I don't see either...

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
01/05/2010 07:27

Groucho,

I think I have worked it out, You seem to have the inate ability to read into a statement exactly what you want so that you can create friction with your reply.

I didn't insult you, not on the board anyway, I merely compared your actions to a spoilt child who must have it thier own way and will keep screaming about it.

I originally tried to help advise how to definitively avoid feeling insulted and you turned it into a cart blanche statement about abuse.

You then admit you were confused but have then decided I was talking about the way the board is run and how I differ with Izzet, funny he has never mentioned it to me.

You got the wrong understanding of message 1 and then decided to keep fighting your corner by any means as usual.

You don't scrutinize, you invent ways to interpret something to create friction.

With you, there is no discussion, only irritation.

If your idea of a community, is you deciding what and how things should be said by everyone, No Thanks.

Paul

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
01/05/2010 07:53

Just more of the same Paul, from the responses, others appear to have understood your original post in the same way I did. I don't think you've worked anything out at all. Neither do I think you were trying to help anybody,



I don't agree with advising people not to post their views lest they get abuse in place of taking the abuser to task... It is totally wrong minded to use this argument, it's like saying to victims, 'don't go to school if you don't want to be bullied'



"So, by all means have an opinion but if you don't want others to knock it and some who feel strongly enough against it to abuse you, don't air it in public. "



Why should anybody's views expressed without insult draw abuse in return? I don't insult you, please don't insult my intelligence by dressing up your rudeness with similes.

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
01/05/2010 08:37

Groucho,

The responses of the others you mentioned are against abuse, not accusing me of condoning it as you did.



Actually it is like saying "Don't be surprised to be bullied if you irritate a bully" not, "Don't go to where the bullies are" as you have wrongly interpreted it to be.



Please point out where I have insulted you on this thread, dressed up in smiles or not. I have compared your attitude to a spoilt child (an analagy). I have stated that you are irritating (how you make me feel), neither are insults, only statements.



Again I will reiterate (just more of the same) that I did not write message in the context that you have read it and even when I try to explain that in message 10, you still feel the need to force me to accept what you understood as the correct context.



I am at a loss as to why I am sitting here having to defend my own statement so I will close now, I will read any comment but I won't respond even though I started the thread.



(a miffed) Paul

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
01/05/2010 09:21

Ho Paul

wise words..



What did you do, eat before you posted.. I must try it ;)



Take care



M

johnerebus



Joined: 15/05/2009
Posts: 72

Message Posted:
01/05/2010 12:17

Anyone know who said: "I may disagree with what you say but I'll defend your right to say it". And again, "In my opinion the only pleasant abuse is self abuse"

I wish you well John

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
01/05/2010 18:09

Paul



"like a spoilt child" is a simile as well as an analogy...



"I didn't insult you, not on the board anyway, I merely compared your actions to a spoilt child who must have it thier own way and will keep screaming about it." By inference you insult me elsewhere...



I still hold that no expression of an opinion, however stupid you may feel it to be justifies abuse on this board.



However I do now accept that you may think you are giving good advice about avoiding bullies. It's a shame that by not feeling safe to air an opinion the bullies must inevitably win don't you think?



As a matter of interest which bullies do you think I should avoid?