Plain English Please.

gillken


Joined: 25/05/2008
Posts: 521

Message Posted:
06/07/2008 00:59

Hi everyone



Do not want to sound thick but what does this mean.



After weeks I am still deciding what is safe(if anything) in the TRNC.

Proffesionally it seems that significant improved TMD land is safe then on the forum its not.



I have read the Annan Plan, it actually seems more safe than Exchange if there has been an improvement.



But what is the meaning of this....."TMD land does not benefit from the comparative land value protection".



Thanks

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
06/07/2008 01:18

gillken,



No land is safe in the TRNC. This should be determined between Mr Takat and Mr Christophias.,and thereafter approved by the International Community.



If you must...........await an ammendment to The Specific Performance Law of 1885, then at least you will legally be able to obtain your deeds. (for whatever that is worth.)



wyn

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 00:18

gillken,



Pre 1974 foreign or TC owned property is legal, internationally recognised and safe. All the rest belongs to refugees and should not be touched with a bargepole if you value your money and reputation.

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 00:52

PtePike



Reputation?????



Tell me please why do you think my/our reputation is in question.....are you the judge of this or will this be brought to light once re-unification is made and we are all frogmarched in chains to the High court in Nicosia for a public humiliation and vilification by an unbiased GC jury?



What is your take on the TC's that lost huge tracks of Paphos/Larnaca to housing and airport developments....not a lot I imagine, after all who cares????as long as the GC's get what they ask for to hell with everybody else.



Anyway I am delighted with my purchase on land exchanged for land lost by some poor TC in the south and will take my chance on any weak claim that may be made over it, if and when that ever happens.In the meantime I shall not lose any sleep over any question made of my reputation and judgement to purchase by someone who is in no position to do so.



Long live the TRNC!!!



Jim.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 08:33

You have to accept that nothing except verified pre 1974 is safe.



If you read all that is posted on the BB's etc you can then weigh up the risk.



We did so and are prepared for a potentially worst case scenario. Who knows if or when a solution will be found.



After that we have done same as Jim, enjoy.

gillken


Joined: 25/05/2008
Posts: 521

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 09:18

Hi



But what about exchange land if it is valued at 50% more/less than the land that was given up. Nobody mentions that.



My reading on that is either the TC/GC are allowed to have the lost land reinstated or compensation is paid via the exchange owner.



Annan plan about page 99 Articule 12 paragraths 2,3,4.



Articule 14, whats that about?



If all this land is not safe......... and some of it is, we are just not sure which will be OK, cos they have to keep some....... Seems to me, its up to the Board and if they have had to many efes the night before, which will determine their decision.



Sorry just trying to get my head around all this .............still !!!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 09:25

wackyjim,



Spoken like a man with a knackered donkey! My reputation has gone forever after riding into town on that bloody thing!



You will be pleased to know I parked it on some Pre 74 land where it is grazing with some other stubborn old mules!



wyn

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 10:43

gillken,



It is irrelevant what you, I and everybody else in TRNC thinks about the issue now. At some point in the future there may be a resolution and we will have to abide by it like it or not. That is why you have to be aware of the worst case scenario, you know what the Usless Nations is like.



Same as in UK, probably 70% of the voting population think Gordon Brown is a total waste of space but he is not going to resign. Especially not when he has the opportunity to travel the world at our expense stick his nose into every exotic trough he can get to. (current G8 conference check out there meal time menus).

shytallknight


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 39

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 11:20

I could have been wrong but I was sure I saw something by the BBC that stated TRNC exchanged title deeds were considered safe now, thats wht estate agents are now being rushed off their feet.

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 11:54

Wyn



I can just see you riding in to Kyrenia on the Donkey following some bright star before arriving at a friendly Inn ....This sounds familiar....Were the streets lined with the masses to greet the arrival of someone very special, you know, palm leaves adorning the pavements etc....kinda like some errrr...... biblical figure????



MY GOD!!!! Wyn are you part of another "Greatest Story Ever Told"????



If there is no room at the Inn please feel free to use my place to rest your weary head...I will organise everything for you even some vestile virgins to wash your feet and to attend to all your needs...



Your humble servant..



Jim.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 12:25

Wackyjim,



I don't think anyone will be taken in chains to the High Court in Nicosia and certainly not before a jury. It's likely to be a judge sitting alone and in most civil cases the defender will have their name called out in court and if they choose to defend the action they should be there. If not decree plus expenses will be awarded against them. How the summons is served is another matter, but the truth is you just don't know what will happen to you or your investment.



The Larnaca airport argument doesn't wash. Nicosia International Airport became stranded in the Buffer Zone because of the Turkish army, leaving the Cyprus government with no choice but to build another one quickly considering it had just lost one third of its territory. If the local council decided to take half of my garden way for road widening there's not a lot I can do about it. Compensation gets paid once the red tape is sorted out. Both sides in Cyprus are currently in proximity talks trying to get a settlement thrashed out as we speak.



How can you ever compare your "purchase" with Larnaca Airport? You have speculated on the back of someone else's suffering and misfortune for a holiday home as personal gain - you've certainly not completed a major public works project. Have you ever met the person whose property you claim was "exchanged"? Have you checked with both land registries and done your homework, or are you happy with the estate agent's version? Still waiting for PTP? If so, you don't even know if someone else's property will ever even be in your name yet, you still handed over money. Even putting the morality to one side, is that sensible? It's disappointing that someone coming from the land of thr Highland Clearances appears to have so little conscience, let alone savvy.

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 13:15

PtePike



You are correct in saying that nobody knows the eventual outcome on any settlement talks...what I am saying is that if compensation is the solution then I shall pay up...no question!!



You say the Larnaca argument doesn't wash and follow that up by a miserable justification that Turkeys intervention gave the GC's the right to displace/murder decent TC's for an airport!!!!!!!!!! I can't quite believe someone as educated as yourself could agree something like that.



My comparison to ALL land lost in the South which was legally owned by TC's then exchanged for land in the north after the conflict is to my mind a fair one as any suffering and misfortune was at the time experienced by both sides.



PTP ...got it thanks



Highland clearances....is that something to do with trees and global warming???



As for Savvy ...well thats cute coming from you Eric!!!!



Jim.

Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 13:39

Plain English -



Pre-74 land and properties are internationally recognised.



Exchange land and properties have been given in exchange to TC's or GC's for property lost either side of the border, this was agreed between the two sides and the land/property is safe.



TMD land is land that belonged to GC's prior to the 1974 intervention, this land now belongs to TC's and mainland Turks, if the GC wants this land back which they are entitled to they will need to exchange it for similar land in the South or ask for compensation.



Compensation.

A donum of TMD land that has no developments on it will be compensated at the 1974 land value plus 34 years worth of inflation. If the donum of land has been in any way improved i.e a villa and pool built on it, then the compensation will be based on the 1974 land value plus inflation minus any improvements thus this piece of land has been improved 100%.



I don't think that many GC's would be willing to exchange their valuable land and properties in the South for a piece of land here, or if the land has been improved by 100% bother to chase around for a couple of pounds compensation.



And visa versa

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 13:48

Jim



I'm afraid PP makes a very valid point that no one can claim that using the Larnaca Airport ownership is justification for buying either TMD or Esdeger title. They are not the same thing, not even similiar. One is a public works project and the other has been sold for profit.



When something is too good to be true.............it usually is.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 13:55

"Exchange land and properties have been given in exchange to TC's or GC's for property lost either side of the border, this was agreed between the two sides and the land/property is safe. "



Aslan



Is there any official scource for this information? There are many GC refugees who have been re-housed in the south, do not have title deeds and are not allowed by ROC law to sell them.



Even the judge in the Orams case, Justice Jack, stated in his findings that the legal owner of the land was still Mr Apostolidies. He did not exchange his land but the title deeds the Orams had was Esdeger.

Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 14:03

Stubs yes there is an official source for this information, and when I have a little more time I will find and publish it for you.

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 15:09

wacky

i think what pike means you coming from the highlands is all that fresh air you get up in scotland you should be thinking more clearly!!!! lol

and i thought savvy was your middle name mate!!!!! lol



stubs i think you have misread jims comments he is not saying it is justified to buy exchange land becasue of larnaca airport he is saying that turkish people lost their homes and land but we hear nothing from that



pike you saying that the larnaca airport argument does not wash, say that to all the turkish cypriots that lthat had to flee from their homes , and all my family aswell as many others had to leave their homes in larnaca centre into enclaves in the suburbs of larnaca not because of the turks coming over in 74 but also between 63-64 when turkish cypriots where getting attacked because they refused to accept second class citizenship in the form of the 13 point change in the constitution, and then markrios saying in his speech

''unless this small turkish community forming part of the turkish race which has been a terrible enemy of hellenism is expelled from cyprus the duty of the heros of the eoka can never be considered terminated'' so what did you expect the turkish cypriots to do roam cyprus like some sort of gypsy or even better just be killed which would have happened if the unficyp did not get involved

so at the end of the day exchanged land is a risk but with now all compensation packages in place i hope common sense will prevail because you cant say to people who have been living in the south and the north get out of your homes that you are in after all these years

regards

ukturk



p.s aslan is right of course there are many homes and land in the south that still belongs to turkish cypriots but these people got deeds that were re issued saying they were the rightfull owners and because the osuth is ın the e.u it will be pretty hard to contest this

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 15:59

Jim,



I respect your willingness to accommodate some kind of deal if the owner comes knocking post-settlement, so good on you for that. But I didn't say Turkey's invasion gave anyone the right to murder or expel anybody else - that's making assumptions about what happened to the TC farmer who had the Larnaca Airport land. He was certainly around in recent years.



There was no "exchange" of property. How could there have been when only one side was willing? Again, I suspect you have been told the Turkish version of events, as others were when they looked to buy a place. If I was caught with someone else's property, then claimed vaguely in my defence it was swapped by someone (whose name escapes me because I never knew it in the first place) about 30 years earlier, I would expect to be charged with handling stolen goods (reset to you and me), possibly conspiracy and maybe even attempting to pervert the course of justice by giving false information. But that's in the real world. As both sides in Cyprus edge gradually closer to settlement, it's unlikely the presence of 35,000 Turkish troops will always be there to protect people from facing the music.



As for the savvy - do we really need a contest?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 16:07

Shytalknight: "I could have been wrong but I was sure I saw something by the BBC that stated TRNC exchanged title deeds were considered safe now, thats wht estate agents are now being rushed off their feet."



You are definately mistaken. The BBC would never make such a ludicrous suggestion. As for claiming estate agents are rushed off their feet - perhaps you know something they don't.

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 16:09

Hi ukturk



Nice talking to you again....All that fresh air is going to my head!!!!



Thanks for the clarification of my posting...spot on!!



Cheers



Jim.

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 16:51

PtePike



Ok.. you did not mention Turkeys intervention and yes you are correct relatives of those who owned land in and around Larnaca airport do live here in the North. However I am very friendly with a TC whose family had a farm in Paphos and who were persecuted and tortured before being eventually hounded out of there family home during the 74 conflict. Cemal and his wife returned to their old home only last year for the first time in 33 years to find it had all gone to be replaced by 50 villas.



So if there is no exchange agreement can you tell me who authorised this criminal act??? Or is just another acceptable we can do what we like GC action???



Is it not time to accept that there were injustices suffered by both sides???



Obviously not!!



Jim



Happily meet you for a Savvy fight anytime

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 16:52

Ukturk,



I know about the constitutional problems and the Turkish Cypriot enclaves. But as you know there is another version to these points which have been exploited by both sides. I have always tried to put across both sides e.g. the TCs were forced from the joint government by militant GCs/the TCs walked out of the joint government after being ordered to by their own leadership. Having come across the UN report below, I think I've been too biased to the Turkish side over the years. We all know the UN as a talking shop can rarely agree on anything. The fact that they wrote this report would lead most reasonable-thinking people ro conclude that the Turkish side has made rather too much of their "victim" status and has in fact been mainly to blame for 40+ years of division:





21. Whilst establishing an independent and sovereign Republic, the Constitution of Cyprus, "unique in its tortuous complexity and in the multiplicity of the safeguards that it provides for the principal minority, ... stands alone among the constitutions of the world" (S.A de Smith, The New Commonwealth and its Constitutions, London, 1964, p. 296). Therefore, it was no surprise that, within less than three years, abuse of safeguards by the Turkish Cypriot leadership led to total unworkability of the Constitution which necessitated the proposals for constitutional amendments submitted by the President of the Republic and which were immediately rejected by the Turkish Government and subsequently by the Turkish Cypriot community.



22. Turkey, in furtherance of its designs based on territorial aggrandizement, instigated the Turkish Cypriot leadership's resort to insurrection against the State, forced the Turkish Cypriot members of the executive, legislature, judiciary and civil service to withdraw from their posts and created military enclaves in Nicosia and other parts of the island. As a result of the foregoing and the intercommunal violence that ensued the Security Council of the United Nations was seized with the situation and by resolution 186 (1964) of 4 March 1964 a peacekeeping force was sent to Cyprus and a mediator appointed. In his report (S/6253-A/6017) the Mediator, Dr. Galo Plaza, criticized the 1960 legal framework and proposed necessary amendments which were again immediately rejected by Turkey, a fact which resulted in serious deterioration of the situation with constant threats by Turkey against the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Cyprus which necessitated a series of United Nations resolutions calling, inter alia, for respect of the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Cyprus.



23. The Secretary-General of the United Nations in 1965 described the policy of the Turkish Cypriot leaders in this way:



"The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots" (S/6426).



Despite this policy, a certain degree of normality gradually returned to Cyprus and by 1974, with the active encouragement of the Government, a large proportion of Turkish Cypriots were living and working alongside their Greek Cypriot fellow citizens.



24. Using as a pretext the coup d'état of 15 July 1974, instigated by the Greek military junta against the Cypriot Government, Turkey invaded the island on 20 July. Forty thousand Turkish troops la

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 16:59

Wackyjim,



This friend of yours should give you some evidence about what he claims to have lost in the south if we are not just to treat it as hearsay, which as you know is worthless and inadmissable evidence. Get a scale plot map reference from him and we can cross-check it with land registry records and Google Earth. Also ask him for copies of the complaints I'm sure he will have made to the GC authorities and the UN, and I'll get some reaction from their press office.



Savvy enough?

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 17:06

PtePike



I'm back in September and will get as much info as I can get and get back to!!!





Hows that for being Savvy????



Jim

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 19:02

That'll dae nicely, ken.

dobbo



Joined: 13/06/2007
Posts: 72

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 20:44

Interesting thread got me thinking of what were the main reasons for me buying a property in North Cyprus.

Price, Climate, Beautiful Country, I felt sorry for average Turkish Cypriots it did not feel right that they were isolated whilst the south prospered, but now I am having sympathy with the average Greek Cypriots deprived of there homes. What a bloody mess! I don't know what to think now, I knew I was taking a risk but l thought it was worth a gamble.

At the end of the day I think there has been right and wrong on both sides, but I think going over the past over and over will not get any one any where. Unfortunately life is not fair you just got to make the most of the present time.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 21:15

dobbo,



Wise words. I couldn't agree more.

jock1



Joined: 06/01/2008
Posts: 3786

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 21:15

Cough!! Cough!! Clearyour throat,s lads.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 21:36

wackyjim,



I appreiciate your acknowledgement of my true calling.



Perhaps if you sought to look at my true identification (openly declared) you will then



see my true initials .Bless you all!



Has anyone got any loaves and fishes?



wyn

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 21:52

Wyn(JC)



Forget the loaves and fishes...just turn the water into Efes and you are indeed the Lord God himself!!!!!



Amen!!!

Chris


Joined: 26/03/2008
Posts: 454

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 21:53

Wyn,



Surely you havent gathered 5000 followers at the ship, (send my love to Noah)



The owners must be estatic!!





Chris



Hows our hut?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 22:16

My opinion for whats its worth is we have to ask ourselves why did the Turkish Army invade and occupy in 1974 ?

If they wanted the whole island they would have taken it but they stopped at what is now the green line, they are only there to protect the TC community and when the GC,s accept this then we may be able to move forward.

I don't favour either people just respect them both but there is too much stirring up of crap to suit peoples own beliefs.

From what I have read in history which I accept as factual then there has to be some acceptance of actions taken by people many years ago

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 22:25

"...the Lord God himself!!!!!"



God's a woman - and she's black.

Chris


Joined: 26/03/2008
Posts: 454

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 23:09

Not Diana Ross!!!





Chris

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 23:18

Turt,



You say the Turkish army is only there to protect the TC community and then add: "...but there is too much stirring up of crap to suit peoples own beliefs."



I think your second phrase cancelled out the first. Any suggestion that 35,000 Turkish troops are only there to counter the "threat" of the Cyprus National Guard of around 10,000 men is laughable, IMO.

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 23:23

PtePike



Damn!!! I forgot about the sexual and racial discrimination....mind you as long as she's not a Greek Cypriot we should be alright!!!!



Jim

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 23:30

Turtle



I don't disagree with what you say.....just remember Turkey did not invade they intervened to save any further genocide!!



Jim

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 23:49

Jim,



My dog tags said "athiest" - but I reckon that was only because the bloke making them couldn't spell "agnostic". It certainly wasn't what I put on the form.



Anyway, what is this "further genocide" of which you speak? Please don't say you read it in a book. I have a certain volume in mind and a fast diminishing sense of loyalty, neebs.

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
08/07/2008 23:56

PtePike



I like that...I have to say I am warming to your sense of humour!!!





Just to irritate you..I read it in a book!!!

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
09/07/2008 08:24

Further genocide, I hope not.

But once tried?



Troodo

Happy to live in the safe area.

jock1



Joined: 06/01/2008
Posts: 3786

Message Posted:
09/07/2008 08:39

Pike out of interest are you a fifer?