cyprus or britain

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 639


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 20:49

in the last 18 months 70 young men and women have been stabbed or shot

dead in our cities, we are living in a war zone. last night four more people

were killed in north and east london,for some years now i,ve been contemplating returning too cyprus but every year i say i,ll make a decision

next year,however i think soon the decision will be made for me ,what i would

like to find out from people who have already made the move how they have

coped, the ups and downs .the longest time i have spent in cyprus at any one

time was six weeks and i was desperatly homesick ,but britain is not the country it used to be

musin.

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 554


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 20:58

The Uk is safer now than for many years. Crime is down across the board. It is unfortunate that these, mainly youth centered murders ramp up the fear of crime. There are 60 million people in the UK if that helps put it in perspective.

gottheyips


Joined: 28/12/2007
Posts: 180


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 21:10

rtddci



NO.

suntanman



Joined: 18/04/2007
Posts: 388


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 21:11

rtddci

I have to disagree with you on this one.

I have worked with the public for over 30 years, and in recent years have needed police intervention on too many occasions. In the last 6 months I have been verbally abused, threatened, spat at at least half a dozen times. Only yesterday a customer threatened to kill me!

I now have to have a plastic bag containing swabs for dna testing at my side. It has been mentioned that we may need body armour in case of knife attack.

And I am suppposed to be giving a b****y public service!!!!

suntanman



Joined: 18/04/2007
Posts: 388


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 21:12

Just waiting for my retirement, then TRNC here I come...........unless I am killed at work first!

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 639


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 21:21

rtddci

i dont feel safe mate ,i month ago two youths sprayed our local with bullets

from an automatic firearm no one was injured ,but it caused so much damage

londoners seem to be more hostile than before, maybe there is too many people in one place .

kavenkoy



Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 419


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 21:22

you have to blame all the do gooders for taking away law and order .

civil liberty groups and all the chin less mps out there .



kav

Chris



Joined: 26/03/2008
Posts: 452


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 21:34

They have taken away the discipline in the schools as well, I work in our local upper school at the moment, and the teaching staff in the PE dept are not allowed into the changing rooms to stop the kids pulling the place to bits! The toilets are constantly out of order as they have put loo roll down, fixture and fittings are hanging on by a thread, they have stopped putting clocks up as the kids take them down for the batteries, when I asked why they would not go in and sort them out they said they were violating the kids human rights!!!!!

I live in an extremely prosperous village full of ex RAF, Navy, retired police inspectors etc...

Dont get me started on the NHS.............(ex staff nurse )



Chris

chick


Joined: 02/07/2008
Posts: 116


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 21:47

What world do you live in rtddci



Musin. There are no real londoners anymore



Get rid of the PC Brigade and bring back hanging

rtddci


Joined: 29/12/2007
Posts: 554


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 22:07

Chick

The real one.

Chris



Joined: 26/03/2008
Posts: 452


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 22:33

This is John, Chris partner,



I believe that within the next 5 years there will be gang warfare which will turn into complete anarchy, and overall will lead to strict policing and maybe military intervention, - your new Prime Minister!!!!



John

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 2152


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 22:47

it does'nt bear thinking about john !

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 639


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 22:55

simbas

i suspect john may not be far off the mark

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 376


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 23:33

Hi all,



I live in London, I am scared to go out on my own in the evening, I don't like being out of my comfort zone. That is why I go to my home in Cyprus as often as I can, I never feel threatened there. London is now like New York was some years ago and how did they clean up New York? Zero Tolerance, I agree with Chris children get no discipline anymore either in schools or at home. All these do gooders have created a world in which kids know they can do what they want and get away with it. There is no respect for life or property, I am not saying bring back the birch but discipline in schools and at home should be returned without the interference of some misguided souls in some office in Brussels. Rant Over.



The Butlers wife

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 848


Message Posted:
11/07/2008 23:49

Its been pretty quiet down here on the Isle of Wight.



Few attacks on foreign students, lots of drunken brawls, attack on a bus driver!!! What's that about? Drunk drivers, including 81 year old now tagged. You don't believe me , do you? Well here it is.



http://www.iwcp.co.uk/News/Ban_man_81_bounces_cheque_for_Mercedes_1.aspx



Still don't lock our doors, no really, we don't. Still let kids stay out, local plod very good at patrolling seafront and confiscating drink.



Generally still great place to live. Stil safe to go out at night alone, no gangs, lots of places to go if you want to chill alone.



Now going to make you jealous with some photos.



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/Lemtich/IOW90001.jpg



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/Lemtich/IOW70001.jpg



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/Lemtich/IOW20001.jpg



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/Lemtich/IOW10001.jpg



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/Lemtich/IOW60001.jpg



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/Lemtich/IOW40001.jpg



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/Lemtich/IOW30001.jpg



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/Lemtich/IOW50001.jpg



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/Lemtich/IOW80001.jpg



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/Lemtich/IOW100001.jpg



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/Lemtich/IOW110001.jpg



http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa219/Lemtich/IOW120001.jpg



All these photos are by Steve Gascoigne and are his copyright.



This is where I live.



Lem

Reproman


Joined: 05/06/2008
Posts: 91


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 00:13

Musin, great post.



What would you do work wise once you move back?



From what i hear, cyprus is a great place to live for sure, but like anywhere else, you need money.



I totally agree with what you are saying about quality of life here in UK, and esp London. Anyone that even tries to say its not as bad as it seems either lives in a bubble or is pretty well off and isnt in daily contact with the scum that walks our streets.

And its not just the crime either:

NHS - MRSA anyone?

TRANSPORT - Anyone ever been on the tube in rush hour...and been stuck for ages in a sweaty hot tunnel packed with stinky strangers...let alone the fear of being bombed.

GOV - as we head into the worst recession and house price crash on record...i can safely say this gov has ruined this country.

Anyway, i can run a list as long as this thread about why life here is so crap.



But my point is, to live in cyprus, you need money, and as i hear its not as cheap out there as it used to be.



Repro

Dixie Normus



Joined: 22/02/2008
Posts: 199


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 04:27

Spot on Reproman, NC is ok if you have a few bob tucked away or a pension, the economy in NC has seen its boom and is now on a slide, due to the Credit crunch alot of forign money that was coming in is now in decline, things will be hard here for the next few years for those trying to earn a buck.

If a political genius took charge of the UK it would take 10 years to turn round the damage that has been done by Tonies croanies so things are going to get worse before they get better. So on that note yes ,I would (and have ) got out of the Uk, but prepare yourself for a bumpy ride here, its not all fun , sun , n utopia.

DN

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 1131


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 05:15

Despite all the aggravation with builders etc, the only way I would go back is in a wooden box.



The UK has been destroyed over the last 10 years, crime is out of control, PC has taken over, NHS is in a worse state than when I left 7 years ago etc.



We have travelled quite extensivelly and have always felt safe in cities such as New York, Hong Kong, Bangkok etc even at night. Would never dream of going around London on a night.



There is the point of financial security of living here but we did all the sums, what ifs etc and made sure that we always have a "get out". Unfortunatley too many people move abroad without doing all of this and end up with nothing. I am not a gambler and wear belt and braces!!

Geoff1131


Joined: 12/07/2007
Posts: 65


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 08:00

In responce to the original post, I totally agree with Musin M.I have worked all over the world during my life and always thought that the UK was the best place to live (not work) but that opinion has changed, over the past 4-5 years, the UK has seen a dramatic decline in law and order,peoples respect for each other and there seems to be no political will to re-establish GREAT Britian.

I started the buying process in TRNC over two years ago, at first thinking it would be mainly a holiday home.Since then my attitude has changed and I left the UK on 31st May this year to come and live in Cyprus. I have no wish to return to live in the UK and the more people I speak too, the stronger that resolve is.I agree with cyprusishome, the only way I would go back is in a coffin but if I had my way, not even then.

brian24001


Joined: 23/03/2008
Posts: 560


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 08:54

In 2006, around 385,000 people left the UK permanently.

Not all British, around half were people re-patriating, however, of the approx half that are UK citizens, they will have taken with them: pensions, house funds, savings, skills, as will many of the other long term migrants who return to their countries.

In the same period, approx 570,000 arrived into the UK, many with skills, some with funds, but the vast majority, economic migrants, in other words looking to earn cash to send home, or take home later.

Now, it doesn't take a mathmatical genius to work out that a finacial migration system like this is not sustainable indeffiitely.

Where we used to live inEast Anglia, the local TV News programme ran a poll, and broadcast that 25% (I couldn't beleive the figure either) of people they interviewed were planning to move abroad if they ever became financially able. That is a scary percentage of poeple wanting to leave their homeland.



On the subject of knives, remember, in another 5-10 years, those curently carrying knives will be carrying guns.

Mark this comment in your diary fo review in 5 years.



If you have the opportunity to get out, I would take it now before the real rush begins.

jackeen


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 205


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 09:28

Yes, you have done that and made me jealous. The photo's are making me want to jump into my car and drive to whereever get onto the ferry and spend some time there the photo's are fabulous

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 2152


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 09:38

a very grim picture but oh so very true , i'm glad both my boys are grown and settled , i would be worried sick them growing up in this moment of time . i too live in a quite area have never experienced any untoward behaviour or yobism { is that a word ? } but i do have total empathy with people who have . if anyone had the chance of moving to their adopted country they would have to be mad not to take it . and as it has been said , as long as you have done your sums properly there should be no nasty surprises in store for you

have a good and safe w/e , simbas

brian24001


Joined: 23/03/2008
Posts: 560


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 11:06

I have often said that if the United Kingdom was United Kingdom 'Plc' the receivers would have been called in years ago, and the directors would now be in prison.



Also, the use of the word 'Great' in Great Britain should be dropped as it is only a matter of time before the UK is fined a very large sum for miss-representation by some bureaucratic court in Brussels.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 639


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 19:01

hi reproman

going back to your message 16 i hear what you are saying ,but you would have to keep busy well i would anyway , myself and my youngest son have

purchased a small penthouse in bahceli called palm bay view ,me and the

mrs are hoping to stay there whlile i look for a piece of land in the karpas

area and start to build my own house myself as i am builder ,at my own

pace of course ( couple of years) to give me enough time too adjust if i do

people say once your out of london for a couple of years you won,t want to come back,this is what i was trying to find out from people who have already made the move.

kind regards

musin

Talla



Joined: 18/12/2007
Posts: 37


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 20:03

The UK has gone to the dogs! I would NEVER contemplate moving back there! The judicial system is ridiculous as the ludicrous political correctness, not to mention the gangs, and weapon carrying. If they started a proper punishment system for people caught carrying a weapon and made a few examples, i.e. if you're caught carrying a knife, you get minimum 2 years in prison, if you get caught after stabbing someone, you get charged with attempted murder and get life in prison. After a good few examples were made, things would soon change. Then to combat the prison overcrowding, they should deport all the criminals that were not born in the UK and are not British citizens. America does it, as does Australia. RE the political correctness, I read a story in the UK newspaper that the prison officers were wearing St Georges Cross tie pins that they had bought from a charity collector and they were all told to remove them as they 'MAY OFFEND SOME OF THE INMATES' now have you ever heard anything so ridiculous!

Years ago in Glasgow there were Razor Blade gangs, a Glasgow judge decided something had to be done, he put a notice in the newspaper that the next person caught carrying an open razor would be punished severely, one of them was caught after slashing someone and they got 15 years in jail! The razor gangs seemed to vanish overnight after that! Then again today...you could probably appeal that sentence and say it was 'against you human rights'! What a load of bollox!



It's all arse for elbow if you ask me! Criminals have more rights than victims.

Talla



Joined: 18/12/2007
Posts: 37


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 20:11

Also...while I'm on a rant session...lol



There was a teenage girl being bullied at school and her Mother found out who the culprit was. As the school was unable to sort the problem out, the girls Mother decided to confront the bully; a fourteen year old girl. Unfortunately, she confronted her on a Saturday night down the local park where all the local teenagers were drinking. These 'kids' battered that woman almost to death and put her in intensive care! There is no respect at all today for people or property or life in general from the UK youth! They even video the events on their mobile phones!

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 848


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 21:28

Hi



Maybe I should have mentioned that I live on an island seperated from mainland Britain by a few miles. Maybe its also why we don't have so much of the trouble that the cities do. I wouldn't want to live there, who would? Its totally unnatural, no wonder we are breeding monsters.



They say the Isle of Wight is 50 years out of date, maybe it is. Its the England that was, that's why I like it here, its normal and safe except for the odd 81 year old on a tag!



Lem

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 639


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 21:51

BRIAN 24001

i fear you are correct ,i work on building sites and all i hear is people

talking about how much money they are sending back home too there

own countries, i think we have become a cash point ,however the country

is fast becoming undone and how long if at all will it take to put it back too

together .





musin

Reproman


Joined: 05/06/2008
Posts: 91


Message Posted:
12/07/2008 23:57

It seems that people agree, if you got the money DO IT.

But you need the money....



Would you also need a 'base' here in the UK incase you ever need to come back?



Can I afford a home in the UK, and start up in North Cyprus?



How much does one need to get started?



How much does one need to bring home each month?



Will the children be losing out on the UK education? GCSE'/A-levels?



Are the quailifcations recognised outside of TRNC?



All these questions i ask myself each time i read about another stabbing in london....maybe if i found out all the answers....i too might just make the move.

brian24001


Joined: 23/03/2008
Posts: 560


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 08:32

Reproman,

To answer a little maybe:

Need a base in UK - only you know that, maybe downsize to a smaller property as a fall back option, rent it out, use rent to pay rent in Cy initially.

UK and Cy home - again only you know that, what are needs in Cy, can get nice appartment for 50k, nice 3 bed house for 90k

How much each month - do the sums, UK costs, you know that, Cy costs see

http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/3627.asp message 4 will give some idea

UK curriculum available, fees say 2,500 per year all in

IGCSE recognised worldwide



Bottom line is - finances, and what do you have to give up (jobwise) to try it out, because it isn't easy to earn a descent living in NC, but, the quality of life, especially for kids is much better.

I little more food for thought for you.

brian24001


Joined: 23/03/2008
Posts: 560


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 09:27

Going back to the subject of knives, did you know it's a more serious offence to carry a gas propelled spray, like mace or pepper spray.

These forms of defence, which will only disable temporarily are teated as firearms offences.

So, the incentive is there to carry the knife, not the self defence spray.

Turtle



Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 785


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 10:53

I agree with many posts on this topic, this govenment have to take a long hard look at themselves

Pandering to this so called EU club is nothing short of a total disaster we need to get out now and return to self govening.

Its the usual Labour policies of not got a clue how to manage people and business...................a total joke

brian24001


Joined: 23/03/2008
Posts: 560


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 11:17

I used to be involved in the way criminals are dealt with. On a number of times I voiced an opinion that if the punishment was so horrific that people dare not commit crimes, this would deter the vast majority. I mean, why don't we, the members of this board try and hold up a cash van. simple, we firstly have our standards, but secondly, and I will gaurantee this fits all, we are scared of the consequences.

I once proposed, as a discussion point, that a solution would be third strike (indictable offences only) that hanging be the mandatory sentence, no appeal, hang within the hour (to give family time to attend).

This was considered over the top.

So, I asked, would it work?

1st conviction, person warned of consequances of 2 more, suggested they they stay well away from trouble.

2nd conviction, warning repeated, next time it's te gallows. You can only warn so many times or it becomes meaningless.

I asked my learned colleagues to tell me it would not work, no-one did.

It would reduce the prison population in the future, and fear would strike those who would normally fit this category, of course there are those that cannot be detered, well, they would be dealt with on the 3rd strike.

Of course this does not comply with 'European Law'

Also the EU is the reason there cannot be a referendum (in a democracy - come on!!) in the UK on the death penalty, because it does not comply with EU law, so looks like many more should have voted for the Referendum Part in the past after all.

However, the UK will continue to do what it is best at - nothing but words, and the population in general will do nothing, just keep saying "oh, it could be a lot worse"

As for the Govt, they must be loving all this knife crime distraction, heared anything about fuel prices or MP pay rises, or MP expenses in the last week or so??

Reproman


Joined: 05/06/2008
Posts: 91


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 12:20

Brian thanks for your reply, (in both the threads).



On the subjecy of crime in the UK, if its true that the UK has lost control due to the overwhelming influence of the EU on our laws, why should we all be over excited about North Cyprus joing the EU?....surly this will only ruin North Cyprus over time?





The one point that is so obvious, is to bring National Service to the UK.

It seems that the youth of today are the ones running riot. violent crime isnt committed by adults anymore...its the teenage gangs who put fear in our society today.



National service will give them a sense of pride, teach them valuable skills, and of course self disipline which they obvioulsy lack in both schools and at home.



Youths who insist on comitting crime shouldnt be sent to 'holiday camp' style prisions or young offenders instituions, they can then be sent to war zones. Like afgan or Iraq, or Zimbabwe.

Why waste our prision space on 18 yr olds spending time in prision, learning more tricks from the older inmates and coming out worse than they went in!....send them to the front line in a war zone where hopefully they might get killed! If they are lucky to survive they wont be comitting crimes when they return!



They will soon learn what it means to respect life.



As usual, this counrty will wait untill its gone complety out of control before anything happens, (the economy!...immigration!) and as far as im concerned youth crime has already gone out of control.



Almost every day someone dies of a stabbing, recently it was 5 people in 3 hrs...THIS IS A BLOODY WAR ZONE.



( now i've started i cant stop typing!)



How many people would dare to walk the streets around 10pm or later in some of our inner city centres? not many i can bet.

Gangs of youths outside the local chicken shops. You have to jump in your car just to get a pint of milk.

Us working tax payers, innocent law abiding citezens are under curfew.



Stay off the streets at a certain time, dont go down certain areas, dont use your phone in public places, walk away if they abuse you. dont say anything if they are playing their music on the bus etc.

You cant even look at them for fear you might arouse their attention. But they stare you out, as you walk past, eyeing you up to see how much money you might have or if they can take you on.



We pay taxes for london transport and THEY get free passes to rob and kill people on them. WTF!!!



damn i hate this country....esp LONDON.



Repro.

ilovecyprus



Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 1571


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 12:31

Hi Brian



Just prior to landing at Singapore I had to fill out a landing card. On it, in very bold writing it said something like 'Posession of drugs will be punishable by death'. This statement hit me like a bolt of lightning. I felt my aniety rise, blood pressure increase and I started to sweat. I didn't have any drugs nor would I but I quickly scanned my mind to see if I had anything that might be construed as drug like. One of Singapores primary goals is to be crime free and to stay that way. It achieves this not only through zero tolerance but through some other clever policies. It's not all perfect, as there are some side effects of their actions.



Now, the reason why I responded to the rules in Singapore is that I can experience the consequences of my action, experience guilt and feel a sense of community shame.

The problem with knife and gun crime in the UK is that you have a group of young individuals (Lets call them A's) who do not experience consequential thinking, do not experience guilt and only feel shame in their peer group not the wider community. This is a big issue because they do not fear imprisonment and other consequences. Getting victims of the deceased to confront the perpetrator doesn't work either because they do not eperience guilt.



Now there is a second type of kid, who are the absolute overiding majority (lets call them B). They will respond to consequential punishment, they will experience guilt, but these kids are not the initiators of the crime. They are the reactors, they tool up to defend themselve from kid A. Punishing kid B is a tradgedy because they are only protecting themselves in a tough environment.



With kid A there is a big problem. These kids are often bought up in abusive and violent homes. They do not eperience any type of love. As a consequence their part of the brain associated with control, empathy and consequential thinking does not develop. As they get older they learn to become the toughest and baddest. In their world the toughest survive. They were bullied as youngsters so now they can bully others. They feel soothed when they hunt down other kids and they experience a sense of calm when they batter other children. They carry all these traumatic memories in the past. When another kid begs for mercy they show no pity. They see it as weakness, they begged for mercy when they were a kid and no one helped them.



The solution is to raise standards of living for these kids (a), take them out of abusive environments, get them mentored by a tough kid turned good (this is important because they respond to respect), get them in to competetive sports where they learn rules, teach them martial arts and akido etc where they can channel their energy in to positive outcomes, get them to respect themselves - be comfortable with looking at themselves in the mirror, provide dentistry, teach them conflict solving skills etc



Problem of this is that it costs time and money

Reproman


Joined: 05/06/2008
Posts: 91


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 12:58

ilovecyprus



or send them all on National Service??



I agree the problems with these kids are all home grown. Somewhere someone screwed these kids up. But now these screwed up kids are affecting the whole of society and other innocent kids.



I truly believe national service can give these kids the confidence they are craving and the skills they need to better themselves in the furture.

Another problem with kids these days, is they are soo damn lazy!



18mths or so of excersise, the right diet and under strict control of the Army wiill put them all back in shape.

ilovecyprus



Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 1571


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 13:02

I got involved in a local community issue. This meant that I had to meet with local politicians and attend political meetings.

In my observations I drew the conclusion that most politicians crave power first and foremost, the well being of their constituents came second. There were some good souls but they were marginalised and they never entered in to politics to play power games.



It seemed to me also that it is to easy to get in to politics.



In our society the most talented do not go in to politics.



One of the things that I do for a living is help organisations to identify the most talented people. Talent takes many forms and is largely dependent on context.

Gordon Brown is possibly suited to managing in a stable, uncomplex and uncomplicated environment, but he was always going to struggle when problems don't have an easily defined solution, in environements which are more dynamic.



I think there is something seriously flawed about a society which can have a head of state who is unelected. Who said Gordon Brown should be prime minister? Tony Blair of course, not the people.



The only thing in GB's defence is that he was also going to struggle because he has inherited a sinking ship. Not many would have got her to float.



Other places in the world take the issue of Leaderrship more seriously. They spend inordinate amounts of time ensuring that the head elected is intellectually and emotionally the right person to take the country forward. Thye don't elect their prime minister on a promise.

ilovecyprus



Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 1571


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 13:14

Hi Reproman



Yes, I absolutely believe in National service combined with some of the elements that I have mentioned above.

I have three cousins who are Swiss. Now the Swiss are not known for their wars, but each male has to do two years national service in their youth and then they do three weeks a year. The Swiss are the most disciplined people I have ever met. I do think National service has palyed a big part in this.



Up until recently the Swiss had zero crime but now they have problems. The problem is that they have inherited vast numbers of youth from war torn Yugoslavia etc. These are tough kids who have grown up in a war. The Swiss kids have had to defend themselves against the Yougoslavs.



I don't follow Swiss politics like I used to, but what the Swiss did propose is that any yugoslav who committed an offence would be sent back including the the whole of the kids family, mother, father, aunties, uncles, sisters, brothers. The Swiss were going to build prisons back in these former yugoslav states to hold these offenders. The Swiss were also going to pay for the maintenance of these prisons

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 298


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 13:41

I am sure most people who have travelled/lived in western europe would have noticed the difference in behaviour between youngsters there and in Britain, especially in drink related problems and in general behaviour.How many children do you see openly dropping litter in European cities.I therefore dont see why we constantly blame EU laws for our problems, the rest of europe manages without that excuse.Maybe its nice to have an external whipping boy ,saves us looking too critically at our own society

There is something basically wrong in British society that we must address ,biggest problem is lack of respect.

Also we are just finding another whipping boy in blaming everything on what has happened since 1997.After all, what about 'no such thing as society' and dog eat dog attitudes that we, not the youngsters of today, endorsed.

ilovecyprus



Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 1571


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 13:55

Agree girne, Thatcher did much to change our society or pull it apart. One of the most crass statements of all time was to say 'there is no such thing as society'. Yes, us baby boomers responded to this and played no small part in tearing down the walls of community, thus facilitating a lack of respect for each other.

dy1259


Joined: 10/08/2007
Posts: 324


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 14:05

ILC excellent post msg.35.



Something that may be a contributing factor to many problems faced by our youth (and therefore society) in the UK is the marijuana habit. Seen as a non addictive and harmless drug by many, and by some even glamorised, nothing can be further from the truth.



It is so readily available in schools (secondary) that it traps even those from backgrounds considered stable and caring. The effects of taking this drug is debilitating but not in an obvious way, and it will be having an impact on society both socially and economically. Many more teenagers are taking this drug and actually believing it will not harm them and that it is only a bit of fun without realising that they acquire a 'habit' which is very difficult to break, it de-motivates them-they perhaps do badly at school or even drop out or that much of what they earn will go towards funding the drug, they don't realise how it changes their personality, they can become both more aggressive/paranoid or totally uninterested in anything and lethargic; their main topic of conversation between them and their (druggy) friends is when they're going to get their next joint; they no longer have full control over what they think or do. And in all of this they don't even think there is anything wrong at all in smoking marijuana.



All parents and relatives need to be vigilant and do everything they can to help their young person keep away from the drug (all drugs) or if they are on it, to help them come off marijuana for good. This would also prevent the possibility of going on to harder drugs.

ilovecyprus



Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 1571


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 14:31

very intertesting post Donna



As a teenager the brain is growing rapidly. It's a very important time in a youths development. Drugs are probably going to be a compunding factor.

dy1259


Joined: 10/08/2007
Posts: 324


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 15:00

I view marijuana as a stealth drug in that its insidious effects only become apparent when it becomes desperate for the person taking it, and even then its more apparent to those around them who love and care about them. For those who have no-one to love and care for them, it could become hopeless.



As I said before, all this has a negative impact on society and more so now that it is becoming increasingly prevalent among teenagers.

dy1259


Joined: 10/08/2007
Posts: 324


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 15:08

ILC,

Not only does marijuana affect the developing brain but its lure (and availability) comes at a time in the teenager's development when peer influence is greater than parental influence.

dy1259


Joined: 10/08/2007
Posts: 324


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 15:10

Msg.43 *it's* 'and even then it is more apparent...'

ilovecyprus



Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 1571


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 15:37

Hi Donna



There are vital stages of development that a kid goes through. Each of these stages has to be handled well if society is going to produce a healthy future society.

Probably the most critical is the unborn foetus. We now know that a babies physiology and brain is being shaped by the mothers perception of the world she lives in.

Studies on rats show that when the mother is exposed to a fearful environment the baby rat comes out with a bigger body and hind brain. The baby is built for strength and fighting because the mother perceives a threatening world. The baby rat ends up being etremely aggressive.

If the mother rat is exposed to a more supportive environment then the baby rat has a smaller body and larger forbrain. This baby rat shows more intelligence and does not encourage trouble. It in turn cares for it's own young in a more loving way.

For more info on this then read 'why love matters' by sue gerhadt or 'conscious parenting' a dvd by Dr Bruce Lipton



So how do we create a society which creates more well being for it's kids.

I propose a Scandanavian system where the taxing system is structured so that all of society benefits, where the finances are poured in to the community and welfare of the society. I think in Finland the mother is given 18 months time off to bring up a healthy kid. She is also given the finances to do this properly. The challenge would be that the richer people in society would have to pay higher taxes to support this. What's the benefit to the rich. Well they live in a safer environment.



The problem in Britain is that the talented and rich can make lots of money and either isolate themselves from the dangers of society (harder to do now) or to bugger off to another country. They can make their money and run. Mind you aren't many people here doing that

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 429


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 16:16

Many of the problems with the UK are due to poor parenting skills, unfortunately there is not a "Parenting for Idiots" book available with all of the answers in it and many children today are being raised by not much more than children themselves. Society has changed, we are much more mobile now, gone are the days where mum lived across the road and granny lived round the corner and were always there to help out and offer advice.

Children nowadays are made very aware of their rights at an early age, at times they don,t seem to have a childhood and are born as young adults, other peoples rights don,t seem to come into the equasion, they are not taught respect, they have no rules to live by, no boundaries in place, is there any wonder they behave as they do, where are the guidelines for them to follow, does anyone care enough to put them in place and ride the storm while they do so.

Neither parents nor teachers are allowed to discipline the unruly ones, and I,m not meaning corporal punishment, but as adults we all have to tow the line to a certain extent, we can,t just do what we want when we want so why should children be allowed to, how does that prepare them for adulthood.

I work with children with profound learning disabilities and God knows they have problems to cope with but we never forget that they are children and one day will be adults, that,s when we live by a whole new set of rules, as such we try continually to instill into them what is and is not socially acceptable behaviour.

It is not acceptable to abuse people in the street, or destroy their property, or carry weapons with the intention of harming others but until governments use some common sense in dealing with these issues instead of pussyfooting about, i.e send the perpetrators of knife crime to A&E units to see the damage, then the country will continue to descend into lawlessness and people will continue to move away for the safety of themselves and their children.

dy1259


Joined: 10/08/2007
Posts: 324


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 16:18

Hi ILC,

You are entering 'nature vs nuture' territory here! Did anyone come up with a definitive answer to this? LOL.



Re 18 months paid parental leave, it is not impossible to achieve in the UK. Parents who qualify for working tax credit are given the child care element, for people who spend money on registered or approved child care. Perhaps this money can be diverted to pay parents (and not the child minders), who can then have extended paid maternity leave.



I'm generally happy with the system in the UK and don't mind my taxes going into the pot to benefit society; somewhere along the way we have all benefited from our taxes.

ilovecyprus



Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 1571


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 16:50

Hi Donna



Nature and nurture work together. There is unlikley to be a definitive answer. We are both the creation of our genetic history and our our environment. Exponents of both have strong arguments. I think genes are a little over rated though. Thats because our society values a mechanistic viewpoint. Take a gene (nucleus) out of a cell and the cell still functions for a period of time.



I think the challenge is to create a society that genuinely cares for each other as opposed to a transactional society. It is never going to be fully achievable but at the moment it is waiting quite heavily on the side of being transactional.

dy1259


Joined: 10/08/2007
Posts: 324


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 17:22

Transactional society: part and parcel of the Thatcher era, its legacy lives on. I don't know how possible it would be to create a society that genuinely cares for each other. People and lifestyles have changed so much in the last couple of decades-work and lack of time dominate our lives.

ilovecyprus



Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 1571


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 17:31

You have hit the nail on the head Donna.

Turtle



Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 785


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 17:47

Absolute twaddle

Take a look at the systematic dismantling of this country and its values in the last 11 years and you will find the real reason what is happening in the UK.

Take a look at the welfare state that has encouraged the lowlife of this country to live life comfortably without any encouragement to contribute to our society and these are some of the reasons why we are in the state we are.

As Norman Tebbit once said.........on yer bike

dy1259


Joined: 10/08/2007
Posts: 324


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 18:08

Msg.52

Need more details to support your 'Absolute twaddle' outburst and who are you saying 'on yer bike' to?



The Welfare State is a fantastic system; I agree, and it is annoying/upsetting that some people abuse the system but on the whole it is worth having. Most people on benefits do their best to come off them, to get back to work and contribute, the few who don't, remove their choices in life and remain rather 'dead end' and trapped in their lives, so I don't envy them.

ilovecyprus



Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 1571


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 18:17

Turtle, If you are referring to a strong work ethic, then I agree. Working hard and self responsability are vitally important. A guy told me about a mate of his who had just £300 to his name but has set up a successful cleaning firm. Every society needs it's entrepeneurs and people to help themselves.



When you say 'on yer bike' - who are you refering to? I get frustrated with the influx of immigrants into the UK, but I get even more annoyed at the lazy Brits who take the piss. Example - the white guy who was claiming disability benefit, he was perfectly fit and was earning 4,000 per month running his scaffolding business or the couple who stated that they lived apart, claimed benefit and had managed to milk the system for £80,000.



People take the piss out of the welfare system but it can be a lifeline for people to get a foot up the ladder. There are lots of people in poverty in the UK. I guess many of them are foreigners who don't possess the skills or confidence to get themselves out of this trap. This then impacts everyone else in society. Commenwealth migrants were bought to this country to do the jobs others didn't want to do. Now the Poles have come over to do the same and they seem to work damn hard.

Turtle



Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 785


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 18:20

Twaddle was a reference to the easy blaming of all things current on the Thatcher years and on yer bike was a reference to people who spend thier lives scrounging off the welfare state.

The education system has failed the kids who come out of school in a terrible state of learning, the NHS is worse now than it has ever been, Crime is at an all time high, we pay more tax now than ever before to fund this spend spend spend govenment and see very little for our contributions.

I could go on but whats the point

ilovecyprus



Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 1571


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 18:31

my last point turtle and then I am going to call it a day.



I absolutely think Thatcher changed the the way communities engaged with each other. In her defence she probably had no choice. She looked at Britain and she saw Britain as the poor man of Europe. She wanted to change this which she did, and in this goal she succeeded. She was very lucky having North sea oil and the Falklands war (which could have easily lost) helped her cause.

At the end of the day I admire her robust qualities and never say die attitude. As a friend of mine who fought in the Falklands war said 'she had more bollocks than any man I ever knew'

dy1259


Joined: 10/08/2007
Posts: 324


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 18:33

The Thatcher era was with reference to 'society' being eroded in favour of individualism and the possible effects of this ie the way it changed people, their lifestyles and work/life patterns.



The education system has failed those youngsters who are not academically able but who would probably have flourished if there were practical alternatives available to them. It has failed those youngsters who have learning difficulties but because of the 'inclusion' policy, closed down special schools in favour of them attending a mainstream school but not providing sufficient resources to educate them appropriately hence everyone being disadvantaged.



The NHS can be excellent but it can also be terrible-I've experience both.

Turtle



Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 785


Message Posted:
13/07/2008 18:34

ilc

I totally agree and it just anoys me when people still point the blame on issues she had no influence on.

I respect your last point

Turtle



Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 785