Are you all daft?

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
23/06/2007 19:05

I stumbled across this thread.



I have been married to a Turkish Cypriot for nearly 30 years and visited TRNC regularly since 1979.



Ask youselves a few questions:-



Why are only TCs selling land (of any title) and mainly Brits buying?



What is your title deed worth?



Have GCs ever agreed to Exchange Land?



If TRNC ever wants to be recognised or Turkey and TRNC join the EU they must conform to international law..... property can only be transferred with the agreement signed by the transferor. Unless you have bought pre-74 turkish title your so called deeds are worthless.



As long as Turkey occupies TRNC by force then you can 'own' your house. However, one day many GCs will be rightfully reclaiming their land.



The above is not a rant or taking sides but just ask a few TCs why they are so keen to sell when values are supposedly rising. They are cashing in while they can before Turkey ruins the north with settlers, casinos and prostitution.



One day Cyprus will revert to the lovely island it used to be but do not hold out any hopes for retaining exchange or TMD land.



One last question; how many of you purchasers would be happy if you were driven from your UK house by force (do not believe the propaganda that GCs chose to flee south) and the occupying forces 'sold' your property to foreigners. Unthinkable eh? but that is exactly what you are doing.

Nearly all TCs think it is unethical but are very pleased to take your cash.

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
23/06/2007 19:24

Hi Namus,



You are of course entitled to your view but that is all it is. You say that this not a rant or taking sides but that is exactly what it is. Those of us that have purchased out here have taken our own views on risk assessment and are happy enough to take our "chance". I'm not too sure whether you have joined this board to stir things up or drag this one down to the gutter levels of others. I hope not but only time will tell.

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
23/06/2007 19:40

Not meaning any offence wackjim,



If buyers are satisfied with the risk then it is ok. My 'rant' was just that in private TCs speak quite differently about these risks than when speaking to potential buyers.



TC lawyers should have a duty of care to their clients to provide a real assessment of the risk and explain that Exchange Title was dreamt up by the TRNC government to sell GC land and line their pockets, which is quite different to the official story.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
23/06/2007 19:59

Hi Namus



Would you say that TC's see Turkey as their kin or more so the Greek Cypriots? Or do the TC's see themselves as their own community/country without affiliation to the Turks or Greek Cypriots?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
23/06/2007 20:07

A few more questions if I may.



If Properties are given back to GC's would the TC's move out of the houses they occupy and move back to the south? Do they want to do this? Do they want to mix and build communities with the GC's?

Also do you think the displaced GC's will be entiltled to two properties, their original one in the North and their acquired one in the south?

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
23/06/2007 20:13

Namus



Point taken.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
23/06/2007 20:13

Hi Namus



Another question. It is rare to be able to speak to someone who knows the TC mentality very well (as you say)



Do the TC's want the Turish settlers to move back? Do the two communities mix? If they do want them to move back wouldn't this be an incredibly difficult task should the island be renified? Surely the settlers would fight hard against this?

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
23/06/2007 20:55

Hi Namus,

nice to engage in debate from someone other than a TRNC purchaser. However not sure the heading "are you all daft" encourages open debate. Do you truely think the island of Cyprus will unite? The longer the separation goes on the more unlikely it seems. Other forums make me think that the GC's and TC's hate each other and could never live side by side. Most people have purchased in the TRNC knowing the risks. Many TC's are also moving back and purchasing TRNC property. Does anyone really know for sure what will happen? This discussion might still be going on in another 34 years. However I do take your point.

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
23/06/2007 22:20

Few quick answers.



To TCs the settlers are more foreign than GCs



Reunite - yes



Mix with GCs - yes



Remain a third world poodle of Turkey - no

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
24/06/2007 13:13

Hi Namus



Thanks for your responses.

I was hoping though that you woud have answered some of the tougher questions I posed i.e will GC's give up their property in the South or are they entitled to both? Turkish settlers back to Turkey?

Your post makes it clear that you believe that GC's reclaiming their land is a formality, an inevitability. It just requires the passing of time.

You do concede, however that Turkey has a large part to play before that happens, for example Turkey joining the EU and having to recognise European law.

If Turkey was to join the EU would they still conform to International law? In Phillipe Sands book 'Lawless World', he states that many countries pick and choose which international laws they abide by even if they sign treaties. One of the worst offenders is the United States.

I personally think laws/contracts will never decide issues. They will always be broken until human beings transcend their present level of meaning making and consciousness. This still seems like a long way off. A physiological marker for this would be our limbic brain conceding control to that of our higher neo cortex.



In any case you don't state with certainty that Turkey will join the EU. Who needs the other more, Turkey needing Europe or Europe needing Turkey. I am not sure about this. In any case countries like Poland and Austria would take a hell of alot of convincing. Turkey being a NATO player with the second largest army does give it quite alot of power anyway. You probably expect Turkey to pull out it's troops before being allowed to join the EU. I am not sure they will have to do this, certainly not all of its troops



Lets say Turkey lose their will and the Turkish military no longer see Cyprus as a means to flex their significance. (Again a big shift in consciousness would have to happen to necessitate this.) How would it deal with the 80,000 or so Turkish settlers who live on GC land. Will the Turks take them back and rehouse them? Will the GC's pay for them to go back?



Why was their an ANNAN plan? If it was a simple as enforcing International law ) or waiting for the appropriate time to enforce international law) as you say then the United Nations would not have drafted 5 plans to negotiate the situation.



From your post you sound as though you are saddened by the way the Turkish settlers are changing the landscape of the north. I too hope it doesn't lose it's charm and the TC's can live in the way that they want. I am not comfortable with the number of casinos and prostitution.



Perhaps the TC's will negotiate a seperate alliance with the GC's. Certainly, the best solution is for TC's and GC's to negotiate without the rest of the world. That could then spell trouble for us Brits who own property.



I met a TC in Famagusta who absolutely hated the GC's. He remembered a GC holding a gun to his head and telling him to sign over his property otherwise he would die. This was his thanks for siding with the GC's in defeating the British rule.



Where do you come from namus? Where were you born?



Sorry, my post probably does sound like a rant and a little one sided.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
24/06/2007 13:16

By the way Namus, I can totally believe your point about the government lining their pockets. This happens the world over. Every present government is at it. Definately the British government. It comes with territory.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
24/06/2007 13:38

By the way namus. China is another country that has broken every international law in the book. It invaded Tibet, destroyed it's monasteries and populated the country with it's own people. Russia did the same in parts of Finland. big countries, unfortunately do get away with it.

It is harsh reality. but the big animals rule the jungle.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
24/06/2007 14:38

Ilovecyprus,

You are obviously ready to debate with the big boys on Topix Cyprus forum. You really have done your research! I am not sure that most GC's and TC's would agree with Namus's viewpoint. A recent poll suggested that most GC youth had stated that they could and would not live with the TC's or Turks as their neighbours. It certainly did not give the impression that GC and TC were willing to negotiate and compromise. I also read somewhere that most TC's were happy for the separation to continue and are actually reassurred by the presence of the Turkish army. I have seen very little evidence to suggest that the TC's view their position as Turkeys "third world poodles" From a humanitarian point of view many mainland Turks have now lived on North Cyprus for over 30 years. Their children have been born there. No matter what the circumstances it would be unacceptable to demand they return to the mainland. Asking people to agree to this would just complicate the Cyprus problem even more and lead to more displaced persons.

It would be interesting to know where you come from Namus?

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
24/06/2007 16:47

the view namus is expressing is the far left viewpoint. i know TCs who would dispute his/her stance very strongly.



also i have never heard a single TC describe the Intervention forces as the 'occupying forces'! this language is straight from the Greek side as far as i can see....hmmm?



it is true that there are TCs who feel Turkey helped them but at too high a cost and conversly there are Turks who feel resentment towards TCs for not praising them highly enough for their help, especially TCs who went abroad after the war rather than stay and help stabilise the country.



i am neither so will not take sides, i just sit, listen and learn.

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
24/06/2007 23:33

my previous reply was after skimming namus's post and having read it fully it is obvious to me this persons views are closer to the GC view than any Turk or TC i have ever met.

if namus really is connected to a TC who is living abroad i would say they need to spend more time back in their homeland to gauge the local feeling as their views are exceptionally extreme.



i reckon papadoc might even give him/her the the keys to Lefkosia (...oops sorry namus ....Nicosia) for their post!

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 10:28

should be papadop

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 10:36

Hi Donty



My view is that namus is a GC who has, as he says, literally stumbled on to this site.



Donty, what is your view on what namus says in regard to TC's cashing in their properties early, as he says properties are rising?



One thing I have never understood. When a TC sells their Esdeger land, where do they themselves move to?



ps How was the napa run?

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 11:03

i remember when we were approaching the referendum lots of locals were almost panic selling their land because they thought the big bad nasty GCs were coming back and they would lose everything. at that time, canny investors from the UK and Israel bought up land at excellent prices and have subsequently made a packet!



some of the locals have more than one piece of land and they keep the family home but sell off the surrounding fields.

others have sold up completely, bought a new build house/apartment and a Merc for each member of the family.

if you go to Gonyeli or Ortakoy near Lefkosia you will see loads of new houses and apartments. this is where a good number of local people have relocated to. a Girl friend of mine (TC) who currently lives in Alsancak plans to do the same once she sells her plots in Lefkosia and Alsancak and she wants to buy a flashy car as well.

this area is popular for locals as it is close to most of the bigger businesses in Lefkosia and a sea view is less important than work.



Napa was fun..... lots of fun and Nissi Beach was great too but im starting to feel old with so many teenagers around me so for balance i may spend next weekend sipping Brandy Sours and doing Bingo.........or maybe not

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 11:12

Thanks Donty



How did some of them get to own several bits of land? Were they then given more than one piece by the government?



Somehow, can't see you sipping Brandy sours and playing bingo

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 11:32

people were given bits and pieces sometimes, plus people die and leave land to children etc. families are extended here so aunty ayse might leave a bit to all her younger relatives when she pops her clogs, granny does the same etc etc.



my g friend had some from the family land (esdeger), some for the loss of daddy who was killed by the Greeks in the war (TMD), granny has given her a bit more and uncle who is wealthy also has given a couple of donums to each of his rels.



your right i cant see me playing bingo either!

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 17:35

You can believe I am a GC if you wish.



I hope you all do well with your property purchases and do not become embroiled with law suits and local politics.



I'm signing off now as I am not qualified to debate international law but I will follow benim hanimim advice and buy only after the locals have bought.

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 18:06

Sorry forgot to answer questions about where do TCs live after selling exchange land. I'll give the example of my father in law.



When alive he lived in Osankoy near to the Cami in a house owned by the family (and still is) for generations . His family was always in Osankoy and did not leave any land in the south.



Between himself and family they managed to accrue points for miltary service, working for government (didn't everybody in TRNC?), etc.. Some points they bartered.

He used the points to 'buy' various plots of exchange land - 10 donums near Five Fingers, 5 donums in Catalkoy etc.. Most of this land cost a few hundred pounds per donum over 7 years ago. He never saw any deeds and knew utility supplies were non existent near Five Fingers but he was very pleased to take £10 -20,000 per donum for the land a few years later.



So you see, he (and many like him - it was like a gold rush for points) never exchanged anything but 'bought' land for peanuts that they passed on at a huge profit. It provided him with great comfort in his final years. He never thought he owned the land (TCs tend to retain land and not sell) but thought he had hit the jackpot.



The people that 'own' the exchange land near Five Fingers - good luck, you will need it.



With regard to TCs hating GCs, most will posture and recall some horrible story....the youngsters have been brain washed by the 'edukashun' system in TRNC and have the most hatred. However, speak to the ones over 60 who experienced colonial rule and the enclaves after independence. There were extremist on both sides and my TC family would live with GCs but not under their control.

Would they live with settlers? Ask the TCs in Osankoy their view.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 18:28

Thanks Namus for coming back to the site and sharing your information.



So it sounds like the TC's didn't just get a straight exchange for their land in the south, they also got additional GC land in the north. Would this have been classed as Esdeger or TMD? I guess the extra points they accrued in the military, working for the government etc is classed as TMD land? It would be naughty if they classed this as Esdeger



Where specifically is the five fingers site?

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 19:52

No, it was all Esdeger. TCs will not touch TMD.



The land was 'exchanged' for their service to the country. Land ownership was heavily weighted to the GCs so there was never any possibility of a fair exchange.



I hope I have not upset the many owners on this site but I ask again.... how many TCs are buying (why would they when they got land for peanuts) and why are they in a rush to sell if prices are doubling each year? Confident land owners would hold.



Finally, how many 'owners' have received deeds and who will recognise the deeds? I'm not sure if the TRNC deed issuing authority will still be in power if Cyprus is reunited. The old saying, 'not worth the paper it is written on', springs to mind.



By the way, for all you N Cyprus lovers (which includes me as I adored the place from the late 70s), are you content with the rise in drugs, prostitution and gambling with a police force that will not challenge the criminal organisations? Not the Cyprus I, or my TC family, knew. Most TCs would opt for reuniting, joining the EU and living under the rule of law.

TC joke - what is the first question a policeman asks you in Cyprus? Answer -Who's your father? i.e. if you are well connected you can get away with anything.

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 20:02

Missed question - The foot hills of Besparmak, the Five Fingers mountain, behind Esentepe. A beautiful spot but you will be hard pushed to find a mains electricity supply.....even if the 1950s built generating station does not completely fall apart.



With regard to improving infrastructure a water feed from Turkey and new power station have been promised since the 1980s when the Greeks used to turn the power off all the time.

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 20:22

namus



its Ozankoy not Osankoy surely you should know this?



from what i hear the GC education system is more biased than this side.



if you look at polls the GCs have more hatred towards the TCs than the opposite and in fact the GC youth are the most anti TC (i will see if i have the article..not sure) which means that either their parents are making their own children more anti than themselves or more likely the education system is big time biased.



from my visits to the other side i hear and see much more anti feelings than in the north, i for one have had some ugly things said to me when i tell them i live in the north to which i remind them that if you start a fight and lose then expect to get a black eye!

if you buy any of the English language GC papers (as i do every week) you will see the propoganda oozing from them unlike the northern competition. you never see or hear about GC cars that are vandalised whilst visiting the north whereas leaving your TC plated car in Ayia Napa can be expensive.



you say: 'TCs tend to retain land and not sell' phone any estate agent and they will tell you this is incorrect.



i really do think you should come and stay for more than a couple of weeks before you start spouting such 'facts' as some people might believe you.



are you sure you are not namus-ous?

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 20:42

the new power station has already arrived and is running as we speak (i stood and watched as they came past my office on the way to being fitted).



as for foothills blah blah, the nearest village is Arapkoy and has plenty of new houses. my pals parents are living in a beautiful villa there and they are hooked up to the mains as are all their neighbours.



you need to come and see the place as you are well off the mark.



p.s. whilst in Napa at the weekend i was approached a number of times by touts who openly offered girl for sex in the stripclubs/nightclubs... yes they said you can have sex with the girls. this does not happen here.

i obviously declined.

are their no prostitutes in the country you live in or is it just that it is not regulated ie they walk the streets, dont get health checkups etc?



in the papers recently it was announced that the police are putting more anti drug resources into policing the north south border as it turns out more is coming from this source than from Turkey though the drug problem is exceptionally small compared to the Greek side and especially the Uk which is awash with cocaine and marijuana.



once again i must say your knowledge is old, outdated and incomplete/incorrect.

sjw1979


Joined: 09/04/2007
Posts: 162

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 20:47

Hi everyone, I am really starting to panic reading this, namus what about the copy of deeds that the developer emailed me regarding the land , the apartment we have bought is on? Are you saying they are not valid?

sjw1979


Joined: 09/04/2007
Posts: 162

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 20:47

ps. it is edgser ?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 21:13

You are okay sjw1979. He is saying that they are Esdeger. That is what you have bought. They are recognised by the TRNC.

He is just saying they won't be valid if the GC's rule the island. We knew this anyway, but we also know that this is unlikley to happen.



What I think namus is saying is that TC's got more Esdeger land than they should have. They got additional land for military service etc which should have been classed as TMD land not Esdeger land. I have no idea if this is true.



I think namus is more concerned about moral issues, which relate to prostitution etc. I think he feels that Turkey (TRNC Government) is doing a bad job so he believes that the GC's will do a better job. As Donty has pointed out, the GC's have got their own moral issues.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 21:25

Also namus is saying that only confident land owners would hold out and wait to receive the maximum land ownership price they can. This could be true for people who are already quite well off, however people who have immediate needs like putting food on the table would sell straight away to raise the cash.



You also, get the keeping up with the Jones's principle. It depends what people view as status symbols in the country. If owning a Mercedes shows you are top of the tree, then people might sell their land immediately to buy a Mercedes etc. This then infers them status. Land owndership may not infer staus



It doesn't now mean that TC's think the GC's are going to rule so they better cash in and make as much money now as possible. I don't know what would have happened since them voting yes in the annan plan for an erosion of confidence to happen.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 21:28

erosion of confidence to have happened (sorry for the sloppy English)

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
25/06/2007 21:44

Donty, you are probably correct and there is bad feeling on both sides.



The title to my post was rather over the top and I am not a property owner (my wife has received a fair bit of esdeger land from her father but has not bothered to even view it) so I should not have joined in. My wife's view is that if it truly belongs to her it is not going anywhere and will be valuable when ownership issued are settled.



I think it is true that all purchasers will defend their decision and believe in their ownership and I hope that they are correct.



that's it from me as I just seem to be annoying the converted.

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
26/06/2007 00:59

if you read the annan plan it says that land that has been improved by at least 50% of its original value (ie you improve the original building or build a new build) cannot be claimed so rather than sitting on the land you are better off either selling it to a builder/developer or put your own project on it, that way if there ever is a reunification you would only be looking at compensation (which is currently being paid by the immovable properties commission set up at the bequest of the ECHR) rather than potentially losing the lot.

this also explains why TCs are selling land (i for one wouldnt buy a plot of land and leave it, i would build upon it).

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
26/06/2007 09:02

Hi Donty



I woke up this morning with excatly the same thought. If they have more land than just the one plot, especially land which isn't true Esdeger then they have no choice but to build on it because they would lose it under the annan plan. If you don't have the finances to build on the land yourself, then you are probably best of selling to a developer and then pocketing the money.

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
26/06/2007 10:27

When did the GCs agree to the Annan plan?



The Property Commission will compensate if reunified...... this quango will not even exist if reunified.



There is only one reason TCs sell.

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
26/06/2007 11:12

it doesnt matter that the GCs didnt agree to the annan plan. the rest of the world (the UN) and we agreed. eventually they will be forced to compromise and it will be along the lines of the annan plan, if not its status quo and we all enjoy our properties in the TRNC.



the property commission will compensate once the GC government sets in place the same mechanism for TCs NOT if reunified.... wrong again



Turkey will not sell out TCs or give up Yesil Ada as it is too strategic, too much blood has been spilt and Turkey does not want to be surrounded by it age old enemy..not even for the EU as can be seen from recent politics.



i have never come across a TC with such openly GC sympathies.



throughout this debate you have come up with so many errors from the political through to simple things like the spelling of your families village, power station status etc and i firmly believe you are a Greek agitator. on every forum this seems to happen though i think you get the award for being the first on this one.... congratulations.... but i am now bored of proving you wrong so unless you really pi"$ me off, will let you spout away.



good day to you namusopolous

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
26/06/2007 14:18

Good day Donty. You are a TC expert.... even more so than my wife who was brought up in Ozankoy. Enjoy 'your' property.

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
26/06/2007 15:21

last one



she may have been bought up in Ozankoy but it is obvious she hasnt lived there for a very long time and is out of touch. she probably knows more about north London now.





END

annie


Joined: 30/05/2007
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
26/06/2007 15:35

Crikey

I unfortunately or fortunately (not sure which) do not know or understand what most of you are talking about, but if you believe even half of it you would never buy in TRNC and if you have already you would probably be on the phone speaking to an estate agent trying to sell it back, rather than reading these threads.

If I am on the wrong track completely then my apologies in advance Namus. However could this new member be Weary traveller in disguise the last thing he said was he looked forward to stirring things up again sometime and the start of this thread referred to WT's last posting. Am I being paranoid?

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
26/06/2007 16:10

Paranoid I'm afraid. I'm not really one for message boards but I have learnt that if one posts anything contrary to the party line then the believers want to shoot you down rather than discuss.....even to the extent of correcting spelling.



I expressed my opinion which is different to all the purchasers on this website (and may be wrong) but I did not mean to agitate. I set off on the wrong foot with my title.



Good luck - Cyprus is a lovely island and Cypriots (TC and GC) are, in general, kind and hospitable. Just keep an open enquiring mind and do not believe everything you are told in TRNC.

annie


Joined: 30/05/2007
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
26/06/2007 19:28

Thank you for your reply.

I do agree that it is a very beautiful country and although my time there was brief, one of the things I remember most was how friendly and helpful everyone was without exception. (Not just those in the service industry which you might expect)



Although I think this site is invaluable to someone like myself that has very little knowledge on TRNC. It can also be a bit daunting when a discussion like this one goes over the head.



As with all things written it does not always read as it was meant when composed.

I’m sure as you said you only wanted to have a say and if anyone found it useful good if it did raise concerns or hackles that’s good too it gives others the chance to voice their opinions and give a different point of view.



If I have learnt anything so far it is as you say best to keep an open mind, listen to what is said, do not take everything as gospel.

Take care

Anne

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 00:46

Annie,

Namus has undoubtedly given the best possible advice - keep an open enquiring mind and do not believe everything you are told. The more information you get the more equipped you are to make the right choice.

wearytravellers



Joined: 27/04/2007
Posts: 250

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 04:04

Annie, Comments are not from me in disguise !!!!



This thread has been a joy to read and once again has some useful information embedded within it. Namus and Donty have really gotten into a brawl, but, seems to be sorted out now.



Never mind, get yourself back over for a holiday ASAP, place is to nice to vist occassionaly.



Take Care



Trouble

;-) x

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 11:08

Donty,

I showed my wife this thread and she laughed at your naivety in relying on legal arguement to defend buying a risk in N Cyprus. However, she was surprised by you stereotyping UK TCs as living in N London.



We do not live in N London, she does not wear a yasmak and she knows a sight more than you about the reality of land ownership in TRNC and the mentality of Cypriots.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 11:41

Ok namus



Lets presume that you and your wife are the experts in this matter. You know more about Cyprus than most.



What series of events would you see happening that would facilitate GC's having their properties back? Exacting and precise details would help. Time periods and schedules would be useul to know. Also the key players involved in the negotiations, if indeed you believe that their will be any negotiations.

I am also assuming that you are a fair and moral couple (implied in your threads), so I am presuming that you would believe that the events that allow this to happen, do so with the absolute minimum impact on peoples lives. (to all those involved and living on the island)

I would also be really interested in hearing your views on how everyone on the island will live 'sweetfully happy' in a post solution scenario.

You have also mentioned lots about casinos and prostitution which seems to really bother you. I think you have agreed that the South has it's own moral issues. What are you plans for changing the moral landscape of the whole island? Specific details would be very useful.



Also, I think some of us have had to guess where you live, because you did not answer the question from us about where you live. You have politefully answered all other questions but not this one. Why?

desert rose


Joined: 18/06/2007
Posts: 64

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 12:57

What happens with regard to the TCs that lost land in the South? I know the number of these was far less but still? Im enquiring not taking sides by the way..



The moral issue of prostitution is a worldwide problem... Not just Cyprus. It is everywhere whether we like it or not! I've been living in the Middle East for 7 years and it is a huge problem over here...



x

desert rose


Joined: 18/06/2007
Posts: 64

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 13:00

Ps. I do know that my question is not entirely related to the thread.



x

davidoff


Joined: 21/04/2007
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 14:33

Hi all,



Nice to see Ive found everyone on another active thread- morning weiry traveller!!



I think that there are lots of different views and angles on the subject and there always will be a divide in one way or another regardless!



Your right TCs are cashing in on the property boom thats happening so would anyone else anywhere in the world- If a place starts to become a hotspot then this is what happens before the market becomes flooded with land and developments ( The high before the low)



Take spain for example was a stable market but is now in serious decline due to oversupply of land and property, over inflated prices and people cant sell and are slashing asking prices by upto 30% but still cant sell!!

Same with development companies struggling financially with land they cant afford to build on, or sell off either!!



You are right in that why should Tcs always be punished for a war they didnt start in the 1st place- and why should the GCs HAVE IT ALL!!

If the island re-unites the GCs will never change as its in their blood they will not negotiate and TCs will be pushed to the side lines again and ridiculed!!



I hope that NC stays seperated from SC for good as thgis will be the logical solution for all, but all NC needs is more recognition etc from other countries!



This has already started to happen but like anything else will take time!!

If NC can achieve direct flights then this will help NC s economy tremendously for a prosporous future!



See ya D

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 15:23

namus



i showed your answers to my Cypriot, English and Israeli friends who live here permanently and have either invested here, work here or are involved in the property market and also 2 cypriot lawyer friends and they all agree that you and your wife know very little about North Cyprus other than what she remembers growing up as a girl here years ago.



i dont actually think you live in North London, i think you live in Larnaca or Limassol.



im done with you now as you have no new arguements for me to shoot down in flames.



Bye bye

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 17:25

Hey, looks like we are moving towards making this the longest thread on this site. Thanks namus, you certainly got some of us talking. I think others are probably bored senseless with it.



Agree with you Davidoff on lots of counts. TC's have had a tough time. Overall they have probably come off the worst. People don't pay attention to their plight. As stated to you before, like you I hope the island stays divided and that they become friendly and increasingly communicative neighbours



I have tried to put myself in GC's shoes and have played this scenario in my head a hundred times. 'How would I feel if I had been forced from my home and how would I feel if other people were occupying my land'.



Firstly and thankfully, I have never been forced from my home. This must have been horrific, having to flee a rampant army. What does come up for me though is the event happened over 30 years ago. I would really have hoped that I would have come to terms with the event in that time. I know that holding anger and resentment is harmful. I think certain GC's want revenge, an 'eye for an eye', a tooth for a tooth. (this is against Turkey)

I am not being flippant, but I am sure GC's could benefit from some counselling to let go of this loss. (certainly the ones who live overseas anyway).



Secondly, I would want want access to where I used to live in the UK, but I would not want to actually live back there. My life has moved on in a new part of the uk, I live in a new area, a new community, I have new friends. I don't yearn to live where I lived over 30 years ago. I do realise that Greeks seem to have a greater sense of the past than most progressive Brits, but again it is time to move on.



Now, I guess I might get pissed off if I travelled to the area I was forced from and someone else was making an investement from my property. I would be comforted by a number of thoughts though, if I was a GC. One is, I now have a property in the South, and this is worth alot of money, and I also live on a beautiful sunny island not like those unfortunate northern europeans who live in the cold and damp of the northern hemisphere.

As a GC I would also know that I could claim compensation for my Northen property through the property commission. Who knows I could even invest this in another property in the south.

As a GC, I only have two problems, one is that my governenment wont let me claim through the property commission. I would be labelled as a traitor, and secondly I am very concerend that the north might take away all our holiday trade and impact our prosperity.

cypriot


Joined: 17/04/2007
Posts: 35

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 18:35

hey namus musun namussuz musun whats wrong with you.I belive you are GC pretending to be a Turkish or you are a Turkish cyipriot and you are jelaous because they are investing in TRNC and you can`t or won`t

Yes thats what you are.And I belive most of this guys are agree with me.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 19:34

All this discussion leads us back to that one and only important question - will the island unite? If it does then compensation will be on the cards. I can't see the Turkish government picking up the bill for all compensation due as this will run into millions. Personally I don't think it will unite. Since separation there has been peace. Why would anyone want to rock the boat? The GC have the ability for forgetting everything before 1974 and the TC obviously can't forget. The fear factor would remain. The GC's do appear to be shooting themselves in the foot by allowing the problem to continue for so long. The TRNC will begin to trade with other countries, Greek propaganda will become backgroung musicand the immovable property commission will be a distant memory. Things will happen by default if this goes on much longer.

davidoff


Joined: 21/04/2007
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 20:43

Hi all,



I also agree ILC that most GCs will not move back and reclaim their properties in to NC so they can move back anyway!



I think that most GCs are trying to claim back lands to sell on to developers at hefty profits!



Also you dont see any GCs handing back property or TCs claiming back theirs in the south either!



Also yes alot of GCs are scared to claim back land etc through property commission in trnc as they feel threatend by the ROC in case they find out what they are doing as ROC dont condone the reclaiming or property commission in trnc as they are still saying its illegal to do so!!



Probably because they are worried that TCs will then be entitled to do the same and claim theors back in the south!

GCs have ALWAYS WANTED EVERYTHING FOR THEMSELVES and that is exactly how this mess all started in the 1st place!!



See ya D

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 21:40

Hi Bradus



There doesn't seem to have been any loss of blood since the country has been divided. A kind of uneasy peace. Will they unite? TC's might push for it if they start to feel like 'Turkeys poodle' as namus has stated. I think the Turkish military run the show behind the scenes.

It seems to me that the key is the holiday trade (and property industry). Direct trade is okay but what do the TC's have to export. If they can really open up the tourist industry then they can really become self sufficient, not having to rely on the thought of having to unite with the ROC or rely on Turkish handouts.

Providing they allow the Turkish military to play their simulated war games they can become their own boss.

Direct flights would really help, but if they do we need to hope that the TC's and Turkish settlers have enough entrepeneurial spirit to take advantage of it, without exploiting tourists and at the same time retaining the charm of the north.

I think you mentioned before Bradus that they need to make it easier for Non TRNC citizens to open businesses.



Good point Davidoff. Those in the south who occupy a TC's property are not going to benefit at this stage from going to the property commission. Potentially too much to lose.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 22:02

It would also be great if the Turkish army significantly reduced it's prescence. One of the striking things that hit me when I entered Kyrenia was the disproportionate number of men to women (due to the number of troops). This might account for the number of prostitutes (although I have never seen one in the TRNC, so numbers might just be a complete myth), as they operate as a safety valve, like in the sailor communities at naval ports.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 22:10

Just to qualify my last statement. It might have seemed like their were more men because on my very first visit I think a couple of military units were on leave and in the city (first images are lasting images)

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 23:41

Prostitution is in my opinion not problematic because most of it occurs in places out of the residential areas. I remember driving down this dual carriage way and seeing all these night clubs (" I like You Night club" and "3 Star Girls Night Club" next to "5 Star Girls Night Club" (which one would you visit?) and although I would be concerned if foreign workers were being abused/exploited I actually believe it is a much better system to have this then women standing on street corners flagging down passing cars. Particularly if their health is regularly monitored. I do believe that what is needed in TRNC is much more promotion of its holiday potential (difficult with Greek opposition) This could be done by selling 2 centre holidays to Turkey and TRNC and more guided excursions because there is so much history and beauty. Most people buy their holidays over the internet these days so it would not be dificult to promote.If this bad publicity continues re buying in TRNC (more to come in a few weeks) then I'm afraid this will stop being the money earner they and ourselves had hoped. The universities also generate income (all lectures in English) but only tend to take students from Pakistan, Iraq and middle East. This area needs to be developed patricularly as many of the lecturers are English and American.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
27/06/2007 23:51

Cont.

As for the troops although considering the amount on the island they are quite unobstrusive, it is quite daunting and possibly even off putting to tourist. They could reduce the number to the benefit of all. As you say ILC direct and cheaper flights would also help. The potential for buisness could be great look at all the shops, bars and restaurants needed in Esentepe, Tatlisu and even more remote places. I am thinking of hiring out deck chairs on Algadi Beach once I'v cleaned it up. Seriously I think it could really take off as an all year holiday resort with the right promotion and investment. Would hate it to be the next benidorm though!

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
28/06/2007 00:10

Suffering real water shortages at the moment and I've read it was so bad some people having stayed their 2 weeks were glad to be returning home because of this. These are the things that need sorting. Relying on water to arrive by tankers is primitive. Get the infrastructure and then build the houses.

Location, Location ,Location as Kirsty and Phil would say.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
28/06/2007 00:18

You raised some good points Davidoff. The property value in the south must be considerably more than in the North. Who in their right mind would request to return to a villa worth £100.000 when they are probably living in one worth 3 times as much? Not to mention the employment prospects. The greeks it would appear are more concerned with the argument than the solution.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
28/06/2007 10:23

Two centre holidays Bradus, Turkey and Cyprus. I like it. Sounds like a great idea. Lets start to think about marketing these

Also good point about the Universaties bringing in money. It would be great if they got recognition. Is it the Bologna recognition they need to get?



You are right the troops are unobtrusive, although I did get asked to move on by the military at St Hilarion castle because I stopped at a view point 400 yards from the castle. Apparently the military were also sharing this viewpoint and they were not impressed with my audacity.



You're so right, the potential and opportunity to build shops etc is enormous. Hopefully the government is skilling up in order to take advantage of this.



Yeah water is the big one. It's a big issue around the world. Most of the worlds freshwater supply that is easily accessible is being used up in domestic use, irrigation, manufacturing etc. The big sources of water like in Iceland, Australia and Siberia are really hard to export.

Like oil some people have argued that recent conflicts have been wars over water. The Israel Palestine conflict is mainly ideological, however there is also evidence to suggest the conflict is fueled by the limited water supplys that exist in the area.

Salination is the local option for water in Cyprus, as far as I know. The trouble is it is expensive and you have to produce alot of energy to extract the salt. Then what do you do with the salt you have left over.

'Come on Turkey, get your finger out and build that water pipeline from your mainland that you promised'



Talking of resources. Wonder what will happen over the oil in the sea souh of Cyprus. Could be some interesting posturing taking place there



What is the bad publicity that you expect ovr the next two weeks Bradus?. Is this the fall out from the Orams case or the HBPG stuff?



By the way, definately the 5 star

davidoff


Joined: 21/04/2007
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
28/06/2007 14:50

Hi all,



Twin centre holidays would be great as also it would encourage more people as some are put off by the indirect flight situation in NC!



At least that way it wouldnt put people off going to NC as you can spend a few days in turkey first then fly onto NC later- also this would encourage more flights into ercan rather than people taking the easy options of flying to the south and crossing the border!

This way NC would benefit more as tourists would be spending more money in NC instead of in the south side- i.e through airport fees, travel and shopping!



In general I think that if you support NC then you should fly NC not to the south and cross it defeites the object really!!



When I go to NC I will only fly to ercan to show my support and out of principle....!!!!!! Even if it does add an extra hour or two to do so!!!

I just wish that others would consider the same- If you support NC then you should fly to Ercan!!! Thats my opinion anyway!!



See ya D

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
28/06/2007 22:08

The one and only reason people fly to Larnaca is that it is cheaper and there are more frequent flights. This definately being the case for people flying from the north. But I do agree we should use Ercan. The sheer volume of users might then help sway the governments stance on not allowing direct flights. As well as create competition which in the longterm might help lower prices.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
29/06/2007 10:10

Agree with you both Davidoff and Bradus

namus


Joined: 23/06/2007
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
29/06/2007 11:57

It is not the government stance restricting direct flights but that old bug bear of international law preventing airlines flying to non recognised countries. Use Ercan as often as possible but you will only fly Turkish/TRNC carriers until TRNC is recognised.



I have taken a bashing on this thread but the fundamental issue is TRNC being recognised..... if this happens then I hope property 'owners' relish solicitors offices as you will be seeking lots of advice.



Donty, you speak to TC friends.... ask them how easily they would give up land owned by the family for many generations. Whether they choose to return to the north to live or not GCs will use every legal means of securing their rightful land ownership.

It is not a matter of being a GC (I am a 55 year old Englishman) or taking sides but just reality.

I keep meaning not to join in on this forum but I have my opinion whether you agree or not.

You are safe with Exchange title as long as TRNC is an unrecognised country protected by the Turkish army.

When TRNC is recognised (either by reunification or as a separate nation) then brace yourself for a barrage of claims irrespective of any Annan type plans.

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
29/06/2007 14:00

Namus



i am connected to the business and know agents, developers and land agents (cypriot).



there are plenty of TCs who want to be rich not just land rich.



i know plenty of old Turkish land up for grabs. most of it is a little pricey for developers but it is still being sold.



land around bafra/bogaz is an example, i can put you in touch with one agent who alone has around 150 donums available on various plots there to go with the other developments on Turkish title.



i have an aquaintance who has about a 1000 donums of old family turkish title that is for sale near Tepe Basi.



also check out whats happening near Guzelyurt. Turkish title beachfront developments and thats just the start for this area!



lets assume that you are married to a TC not a GC.... even so you must visit more and not only get the views of one family or expat TCs living abroad.



also you stated that your wife is holding onto her ES land .... why, if you and she believe you are going to lose it in the future once the 'GC rightful owners come back' (your belief not mine)?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
29/06/2007 16:54

Namus, well done. You are indeed brave entering in to the lions den. Also thanks for telling us where you come from.



It seems to me that so much of what you say hinges on Turkey.

In your opinion what is going to make Turkey loosen it's grip on Northern Cyprus? Without this loosening, the TRNC whether recognised or not is always going to be governed by Turkey and the International courts would have no power.



I love these political debates, but unless you can give me some insightful answers I am going to get bored with your comments

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
29/06/2007 20:38

Any prospects for a settlement will resemble the Annan Plan. The vision is a united Cyprus Republic consisting of 2 federal units with a single international personality and EU membership throughout. Land would probably be divided as in Annan because in 2004 this was one aspect that heard few complaints. Little objection raised to a rotating presidency with a cabinet proportional to the population of both states, a 2 chamber parliament with the upper house weighted towards the TC state. A supreme court would have been ethnically balanced with 3 foreign judges casting tie breaking votes as necessary. Ercan airport would serve Nicosia and be legitamised and allowing for separate entry to North and South. Sadly the GC were and still are overly fixated on the economic and real estate aspects of the Cyprus problem. What they wanted as a bare minimum is the title to their original properties and the right if not to occupy them to sell them to whosoever they please at the going rate. So far estimates have differed wildly as to the abandoned property value. No surprise to find out that TC property in the south has been vastly undervalued. Going back to your original question to Namus when will Turkey relinquish its hold on the TRNC? When the GC government sees sense and allows the property dispute to be settled by the immovable property commission and admits its part in the islands history. That might not be until Papadopoulos is dead and buried.

davidoff


Joined: 21/04/2007
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
29/06/2007 21:48

Hi all,



GCs will never admit that they started this via greece sending in a coup to unite cyprus with greece!



They will ALWAYS want to have everything to themselves and rule cyprus entirely with greek power and governement if they re-unite-TCs will not have a chance of a fair lifecor equality if this happens!



Also the exchanges will have to take place if they re-unite south for north and north for south property /land exchange etc which SC realises and yet again this is the reason they will not negotiate as they are content to take back whats rightfully theirs in the north aswell as keeping what is NOT rightfully theirs in the south!



THEY WANT TO HAVE THEIR CAKE AND EAT IT! I am by all means not a turk or turk-cyp but so far I support the turks as they are the ones who are trying to negotiate and be mature and reasonable about everything and are trying hard to move on with life and live and let live!!!



See ya D

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
15/01/2008 13:05

It is so nice to hear all these comments from the other nationalities who chose to settle in North Cyprus giving support to the Turkish people. And it is also obvious that the people who have got opposing ideas are Greek supporters coming onto the forum. I am going to settle in NC soon and can't wait. Agree with all those on this forum who believe that NC can still be one of the best places to live.

Milou


Joined: 15/10/2007
Posts: 425

Message Posted:
15/01/2008 15:31

Biker



You're right - we also feel passionate about TRNC and feel something good will happen for them this year - it's make or break time. Can't wait to retire and waive the flag!

Regards

berty



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 216

Message Posted:
15/01/2008 16:30

desert rose, where in the midle east are you?