ECHR finally putting the final nail in the GCs hope

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 11:44

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/opinions/our-view-echr-closes-its-doors-refugees-over-compensation/20100624



It seems even the ECHR is finally fed up with the unreasonable demands of the Greek Cypriots accepted the offers of the IPC as reasonable.



Where to now my lovely GC cousins residing in the southen lands?

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 11:47

Perhaps we can appeal to Zeus against this decision. Only a suggestion mind.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 11:53

What are the Greeks doing about compensating the Turkish Cypriiots in relation to their properties

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 12:08

Y Fred



If all the GC's applied to the IPC it would not be able to cope.



Bare in mind as the article also says the ROC government at the time advised against applying to the IPC as in their words it was tantamount to recognition. The ECHR will now only take cases were local remedies have been exhausted.



Hildy for a TC to claim back their property in the South the procedure is widely known

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 12:18

"If all the GC's applied to the IPC it would not be able to cope. "

and if all the Chinese jumped up and down at once... Not going to happen is it.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 12:24

"Hildy for a TC to claim back their property in the South the procedure is widely known"

and was not allowed until the ECHR stepped in

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 12:34

Stubs

' Hildy for a TC to claim back their property in the South the procedure is widely known'



Is it? Ask all of the TC's that have found out that their title deeds for property in the ROC have been falsified to show GC ownership. 27 families that I know of that were displaced from Paphos are having a major battle to claim compensation from the ROC and I have seen copies of most of their original title deeds.

Perhaps you could explain to everyone exactly what the procedure is for TC's to claim back or even claim compensation for their properties. Also it would be interesting for someone to explain the compensation system that is in place in the ROC to compensate TC's for property appropriated by the GC government.

AJ

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 13:19

To my knowledge there is none. The TCs I know have applied to get their land back but only if they left Cyprus before 1974 and even then they pay up all the taxes up front and wait years for the lands. No compensation so far. Otherwise have to move down south for minimum 6 months to be able to claim your land back. No compensation. No Job, so how are you to survive.



roc stinks. double standards indeed.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 13:22

Regarding IPC being unable to cope, I think not. They can take as long as they like, so long as there is a process, it's good enough for ECHR. But we are very lucky, the GCs are led by donkeys. I'd give ECHR 2 years before they declare that all the applications have been recieved and are being dealt with. Then my poor Cypriot cousin residing in the greek occupied lands in the south will be left high and dry by their leadership.

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 15:53

Message 7



You are so right AlsancakJack.



But this problem also applies in the North. How many title deeds for TC owned land in the North were falsified between 1963 and 1974 when the country had no TCs in the administration? People are now buying property here based on a Turkish Title that might have been falsified prior to 1974. In the event of a settlement, it is the Land Register in the South that will be used to settle disputes because there was no register here until after 1974. Some of those Turkish Title properties will be registered in the South as GC owned.

When I first came to buy here, Landmark Estate Agency told me that if I wanted to buy Turkish Title I must go to the South to do a search to make sure that the title was still registered correctly. But I wonder how many others have done this.

And if there is a dispute (in the event of a settlement), the original TC owner isn't going to fight to prove that he really owned the land he has now sold to an ex-pat.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 16:15

Message 10.



That is why during the negotiations the deeds that matter are what was there before 1963. Since that date, any changes do not count.



My GC friends always go on about 12% TC ownership. In reality it was like 30% before they cooked the books down south. In will all come out in the wash so long as they use Persil.

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 17:28

Maybe it explains why some (at least) GC claimants will not apply to the Property Commission here - because their 'false' deeds would be exposed whereas these deeds would not be challenged in the European courts - after all they were issued by an EU member state. They know that if they make a claim here using falsified deeds they cannot succeed.

And maybe it also explains why the Republic has told its citizens not to apply - because the extent of their duplicity might be revealed. It would be an interesting ploy for the TRNC to request a copy of the South Land Registry for the purpose of comparison to their own - I wonder what excuses the South would give - certainly they would not give the register.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 17:31

"If all the GC's applied to the IPC it would not be able to cope. "



and if all the Chinese jumped up and down at once... Not going to happen is it.





Malcolm



They are left with very little choice now so will have to or wait for any settlement

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 17:34

AJ



Why don't you ask the families of all the people whom you know as I am sure they will be well versed on how to claim their land back.



From memory the ROC took the stance that if TC land had been used for government projects then they would have to wait on a settlement. Why has not TC ever took this one to ECHR?

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 17:38

Lets be fair here many TC's are not allowed to claim back land in the south, when they came north and were given land in exchange for the deeds for the land they owned in the south. How can they get land in the north in "exchange" much of which has been sold yet still be entitled to claim for land in the south hmmmm.





There has been much fraud regards deeds on both sides of the green line, its not something unique to north or south.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 18:05

Stubs, TCs who have got land in eshdeger have no business applying to get their land back till the settlement, but TCs who did not get any GC land, also get the same treatment from the roc.

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 18:32

Yfred

They can't apply to the South because to get the Edseger land they had to transfer ownership of their equivalent land in the South to the TRNC government. Thus the TRNC owns all the land in the South that has been compensated with Edseger land in the North.

The idea is that when the South pay compensation for appropriated TC land (eg. Larnaca Airport), or restore TC land to its rghtful owner (now the TRNC) then this government has the money to pay compensation to the original GC owners of Edseger land. Hence the term "Exchange Land".

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 18:40

JJ there is plenty of TCs who have not done Esdeger. They get the same treatment when they apply as the ones that do. I am not talking about TCs who hold GC land in the north for their land in the south.

greenman


Joined: 16/02/2008
Posts: 526

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 19:30

Jovial John, you speak with such confidence regarding TC the transfer of ownership of land in the south. Do you know how this was carried out? Did the TC refugees come into the North with their Kocans, or was it done by gentleman's agreement? I've never heard any detail on the process which leaves me thinking that there was an opportunity to 'double dip' by selling land rightfully owned in the South and the illegally acquired Esdeger land in the North.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
24/06/2010 22:45

Greenman you could not do esdeger without surrendering your deeds in for the lands in the south. Unles there was corruption involved.

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
25/06/2010 15:50

Greenman

I am talking about illegal transfer of land. This happened all over the island after the TCs were disenfranchised in 1964 and in the South after 1974 (see AlsancakJack's message 7 and YFred's message 11). Remember that the GCs did not expect any TCs to remain on the island (the Akritas Plan) so they saw this as a carve-up among themselves - and the falsification was achieved with the connivance of Muktahs, lawyers, government officials etc. After 1974 they continued the practice with TC property in the South.

So now TCs genuinely own land and have pre 1963 kocans to prove it - but the Land Register in the South shows it owned by a GC who also possesses a 'genuine' kocan but with falsified documents of sale . But the genuine TC owner does not know this because no TC has been involved with RoC government since 1964. Thus TCs applying for compensation in the South find they are no longer the registered owner (see AlsancakJack - message 7). (continued.......)

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
25/06/2010 15:51

(........cont.) But we are only seeing this in the South because it is only visible when a TC seeks recompense in the South.



ALL FACT ....NOW MY HYPOTHESIS/DISCUSSION TOPIC



But it also happened to TC land in the North.



A GC claimant before an RoC or European court has an RoC issued kocan which is unlikely to be challenged. But if a claiment approaches the Property Commission with a falsified kocan then the duplicity is likely to be exposed, which is why I suggest that some individual GCs are reluctant. But remember that many of these frauds were perpetrated 40 years (or so) ago and many current claimants are not the original fraudsters but descendants who probably know nothing of the fraud. So I suggest that the RoC government (who must fully understand what has happened) are terrified of claims by unaware descendants as this as it would completely undermine their 'moral' stance. I don't know - it is my hypothesis. (continued....)

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
25/06/2010 15:51

(........cont.) There is a further dimension to this if there is a settlement where government paid compensation does not fully settle all claims. I have seen proposals that ex-Pat owners should pay 25% or that they must pay leasehold for 99 years and then the property will revert to the GC owner. In the event of such a settlement which Property Register would be pre-eminent? Almost certainly the South as the North probably didn't have one before 1985. And when a GC waving his falsified kocan claims against your Turkish Title property what will happen. Unless you can pursue the trail back through your builder to the original TC owner and persuade that owner to fight on your behalf then I don't fancy your chances.



But who knows? - this is only my theory based on what has been found in the South. But it must be probable even rather than possible and it certainly gives food for thought.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
25/06/2010 21:19

JJ

Ref messages 21,22,23.

A fair assessment and a right buggers muddle.

The property issue has been and will continue to be the main sticking point in the (now not so progressive) 'peace talks'

AJ

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
25/06/2010 22:25

I don't dispute that what you are saying has happened but I do not believe that is the reason that the roc is stopping GCs from applying to the IPC. I think it is because they are terrified that next step is some sort of recognition like Taiwan for TRNC. That is their biggest fear, they cannot possibly know how far the corrupt practices took place. In any case the negotiations will not be looking at current land maps but the ones in 1960, to avoid exactly that. All this started after 63. The maps of 1960 are accurate and will show the true percentage of TC land.

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 08:57

Yfred. That's a very interesting point that hadn't occurred to me. The Land Register up to 1960 was UK administered and there was probably very little trading done in those first 3 years of independence. People generally would be waiting to see how the country developed before making major decisions like buying/selling land.

Certainly it would be easier to roll forward from 1960 by applying every kochan issued in those 3 years, than try to resolve back from what we have now. Let us hope that this old record exists.

The more I think about it the more I like it - you may have solved the whole problem. I hope this has occurred to the politicians.

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 09:47

never get sorted compo is the only way

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 10:18

Who is to say whether, or not, the pre 1960 Kocans still exist?



Surely, if they have been falsified, or, more likely re-issued to show GC ownership, then the originals would have had to be destroyed/disappear to complete the 'cover-up'?



This, then, begs the question: how many TC's are still holding their pre 1960 Kocans?



For those that are, even though GC's may be holding their 'new' Kocans, who is the ECHR going to believe, and when the Hell is all this mess going to come to light - and why hasn't it done so already after 45 years?



Maybe somebody can explain?

professoregit


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 381

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 10:35

To muddy the water even more, I was under the impression that TC's with land in the South pre-74 were given Esdeger (English interpretation - "same as" or "similar") title deeds in the North in exchange for surrendering their original Kocans. Clarity definately required.

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 11:10

The system was British up to 1960 which means, regardless of the kocans, there was a register (a bit early for databases) which kept track of every transaction. This will have been maintained up to independence and will be 100% correct (the British Civil Service mentality). It is very likely that this record still exists in the UK if not in Cyprus.



As I understand Yfred's thinking, that gives a solid base from which to try and sort out 3 years of probably pretty reliable records - because TCs were still in the administration and it would have been hard to do any fiddling. This must be way better than to try and untangle what has happened since and roll back from 201(?) to 1963 to establish the true ownership. After December 1963 (as YFred said in message 11) there was probably not a single genuine transaction between a GC and a TC because the TCs were outcasts from society and the GCs just took what they wanted. Establishing the true picture in 1963 is the key toit all.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 12:44

My understanding is Talat wanted to go to the 1963 registry, which is perhaps why his friend Christofias decided not to discuss it but but instead spent 14 months on governance which could have been solved in less than a month. I think they will find Erouglu far more difficult customer to deal with. There are Land maps and registries which should have been kept legally. If they have been destroyed then there is not that much to negotiate with.



The last offer for the TC component was 29% proposed by TCs and 25% proposed by GCs. It seems to me as this has already been agreed in the past either side will find it very difficult to break away from their offer. In fact if you include most of the British bases in to it, then 4 percent difference is covered by that, but at worst they will both have to agree to 27%. If this does not happen by the end of this year, then it is all over.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 13:39

professorgerit/Msg29: 'To muddy the water even more, I was under the impression that TC's with land in the South pre-74 were given Esdeger (English interpretation - "same as" or "similar") title deeds in the North in exchange for surrendering their original Kocans. Clarity definately required.'



That is precisely what the 'lawyers', 'landowners', builders and estate agents have continually hoodwinked the foreigners into believing - and, naively, they've 'swallowed it - hook, line and sinker'!



Just read the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office website!

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 13:51

Of course clarity is required. This is not about individual kotchans, this is about what percentage ownership TCs held just before 1963. When you add that to the Percentage of TC government land and Evkaf lands, then you will arrive at the percentage of TC constituent state land.

Individuals will be allowed some options as to whether to move back or sell or keep and rent. There are some rules about who has priority on possession. Annan had good ideas that would have worked in practice. The mistake Annan made was using values of 1974 for compensation.

I have no doubt that the new plan will not be that far different in manner in which it is going to be settled but hopefully, the values will be more representative of current values, especially since the ECHR ruling about what is a home and who is allowed to return to it. But do not forget that the value of land in the south is up to 10 times higher the value of land in Northern Cyprus. Esdeger will be taken into account to I hop

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 13:59

People generally got less in value than they had in the south.

The only cloud over the process is how many people were allowed to buy Esdeger points with money very cheaply and esdeger better than what they had in the south.

I suspect that English people who bought GC land in the north actually should have a claim against the TC land in the south that must have been handed in as Esdeger. I see nothing to worry about in that respect, unless the TC acquired the land in some corrupt way by buying points.

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 14:29

Wow - what a thread! Important stuff - intelligent debate - and not a single personal comment or insult. Way to go folks!! Why can't it all be like this.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 14:39

Are you taking the mick?

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 15:43

Not at all - I promise. I enjoyed this debate.

Paphitis


Joined: 26/06/2010
Posts: 4

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 15:51

Message # 31



Where have we heard all this before.



The only thing that will be hapenning by December is my Christmas Shopping.



So good luck to you all! :lol:

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
26/06/2010 17:20

That's alright JJ, I was half joking. I am not used people being nice to me, but I must admit I am beginning to like it. Thanks.

professoregit


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 381

Message Posted:
28/06/2010 04:48

Msg 32, well aware of the warning issued by the foreign office. However, clarification is required on the procedures for obtaining Esdeger deeds in the first instance i.e. a displaced TC, post 74 with "original"

title deeds on properties in the South. So to reiterate my original question, did the displaced TC physically

surrender his deeds to the TC administration for Esdeger (same as/similar) land. Does anybody know?

TJinthesun



Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
28/06/2010 12:06

Re mess. 42 - I asked a follow on question on another thread but got no response....



Is there any way of finding out which land in the South the TRNC thinks they have rights over? And which TC/Turk gave them said rights/deeds?



Perhaps someone now has an answer.

Attila


Joined: 27/06/2010
Posts: 23

Message Posted:
28/06/2010 20:16

The deeds in the south had to be surrendered to TRNC in order to be able to do Esdeger lands in the south. TRNC should have a register of all land in the south which have been used to claim Esdeger GC Property in the north. There are some exceptions. If the property value in the south did not match the value in the north, then TCs were able to buy Esdeger points with money to have enough points for the given GC property. But even then, there has to be a property in the south for Esdeger to take place. One other possibility is that certain people belonging to the party in government may have been able to cheat and get land without any land in the south.

Attila


Joined: 27/06/2010
Posts: 23

Message Posted:
28/06/2010 20:16

MSg 41.



The office which carried out the Esdeger will have the full details to match your deed for the GC property.

TJinthesun



Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
29/06/2010 14:03

Attila,



Could you clarify? Is this a central office for all exchanged deeds? or is dependent on where the exchanged land is, or where the TC person lived.....?



E.G



If I wanted to go in somewhere and ask "I bought plot x from person Y in place z in the North, could I see the deeds (for land in the south) he gave you that "entitled" him to plot x ?



Where would I go and what would/could they show me?

Attila


Joined: 27/06/2010
Posts: 23

Message Posted:
29/06/2010 20:15

Only Central Office for exchanging deeds would know where that information is kept. You will have to ask them. Knowing how things work there, I would find out somebody who knows somebody who works there. You may have quicker results. Sorry I could not be any more help.



I will try to find out.

Attila


Joined: 27/06/2010
Posts: 23

Message Posted:
29/06/2010 20:15

I have posed the question and hope to have an answer by tomorrow.

TJinthesun



Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
29/06/2010 20:23

Thanks....!

Attila


Joined: 27/06/2010
Posts: 23

Message Posted:
04/07/2010 15:18

The Information is kept in the ISKAN Dairesi which works under Interior Ministry of KKTC. I would recommend you find a local to search for it as they tend to have contacts which would give quicker results.



It's time somebody went on the offensive with the roc. They have been getting away with murder literally.

TJinthesun



Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
07/07/2010 12:13

Thanks for that. WIll see what I can find out.