A second Akritas plan?

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
12/07/2010 18:19

Is it only me that think I detect the whiff of a second Akritas plan, or is it just the bones of the old one refusing to go away?



Patientia est a donum superum

Keith007


Joined: 12/07/2010
Posts: 17

Message Posted:
12/07/2010 18:31

Greek Cypriots are not helping themselves bury the mistakes of the past. Instead of encouraging a good atmosphere for the upcoming reunification talks, they go and do this:



National Guard buying 41 T-80 MBTs from Russia



http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Defence-Weekly-96/CYPRIOT-ARMS-BUILD-UP-CONTINUES-WITH-T-80-BUY.html



Why would they need more tanks if their motives were peaceful?

Anyway, i doubt if these tanks will shift the balance of power to a significant degree. Does anyone know how many tanks we've got on our side? Does Eroglu or Turkey need to make a similar tank purchase for the TRNC to counter the Greeks' move or are we ok with repect to tank numbers? Can't be too careful ....

barnaclebill


Joined: 12/12/2008
Posts: 303

Message Posted:
12/07/2010 18:40

Would have thought that the money spent on these T80s is a waste of money .Cyprus does not lend its self to Tank fighting country they would be lucky to get over some of the natural obstacles.The power of a superior Air force would reduce these vehicles to dust in no time.A tank is a weapon of the past.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
12/07/2010 18:42

Keith007

The reason they require more armaments is because they are arms dealers. And one of the biggest arms dealers in the world. Do your research and you will find out the truth.

AJ

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
12/07/2010 18:43

If part of a solution does not include 24hr recognition of the TRNC, a condition the GC's have refused to discuss, then it will not be two states in agreement but a state and a community. This situation would lead us right back to a 1963 situation. As I said, do they have a second Akritas plan.



Patientia est a donum superum

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 10:12

As I said I could be wrong, but it makes me wonder.



Patientia est a donum superum

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 10:34

Most GC's have now realised that their 'golden goal' of 'Enosis' is a 'dead duck'!



However, their ultimate aim is to take full governmental control of the island to create a situation whereby the TC's have nil autonomy.



The scandalously racist attitude and the abhorrent denial of basic human rights exhibited by EU & UN towards TRNC is further fomenting GC aspirations to this end.



It's called 'political expedience' - some euphemism!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 10:51

Sorry, but some incorrect viewpoints here :



1/ >>The scandalously racist attitude and the abhorrent denial of basic human rights exhibited by EU & UN towards TRNC is further fomenting GC aspirations to this end. << specifics, please ? Bear in mind the UN Security Resolutions re 'TRNC'



2/ If the RoC are serious arms dealers then the Russian tanks won't stay on the island, right ? Tanks without air cover are a waste of money and the loot would be better spent on Hospitals.... However, most GCs simply don't trust Turkey :(



How many planes has the RoC ordered - if they were serious arms dealers - they'd be buying and selling them, too ?!



Many nations are arms dealers - when they are trying to offload outdated, out-moded kit to emerging nations



3/>> However, their [ GC ] ultimate aim is to take full governmental control of the island to create a situation whereby the TC's have nil autonomy. <<



Any plan for a bizonal, bi-communal, federated state won't allow that ...

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 11:19

mmmmmm:



Remember the Russian S300 missile scandal(s) - a pity they didn't then consider building a monorail all along the south coast, or, as you suuggested, more hospitals - indeed, anything towards more useful infrastructure.



They certainly had to write those S300's off with a smile!



Are you, also, suggesting that the Russkis need GC's to broker their arms deals to emerging nations for them - some notion that is!



'Any plan for a bizonal, bi-communal, federated state won't allow that ...'



Turkey cetainly won't!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 11:44

What was 'scandalous' about it - the GCs ordered a frighteningly effective surface to air missile DEFENCE system?



Why do you think the S300's were 'written off' ?



It would take quite bit more spending to balance the arms north of the green line



>>Are you, also, suggesting that the Russkis need GC's to broker their arms deals to emerging nations for them - some notion that is! <<



No. where did you get THAT idea?



Glad we agree that there is a political soln already on the table ;)

spondoolics


Joined: 13/06/2009
Posts: 73

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 11:47

Working in Indonesia for a few weeks. Back now and reading forum again. No acess where I was, just BBC World Service. Any way:



As I have said before. If GC had said YES to the Annan plan this argument or train of thought would not be a topic. They would, after 6 years, have totally dominated Parliament and the Economy. Democratic voting and absoulutely no further input or interest from Europe Courts or Law Makers would have scuppered all TC thoughts of a Bi-Comminal, Bi-Lateral existance.



End of Story - Without Latin.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 12:03

Without recognition as a state, the TC's are just a community. Anyone know the EU law on political conflict within a state? Turkey will have no say as they are outside the EU. The GC's will act first and argue about it afterwards.



Patientia est a donum superum

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 12:20

Surely Turkey would never leave Northern Cyprus high and dry would they.Otherwise what was the point of the 74 intervention,which i believe was backed by America and Nato,

Paul.

cypgab


Joined: 09/01/2010
Posts: 338

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 12:53

It was, until the first cease fire. When the Turks moved on from there they lost the sympathy and backing.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 14:56

Point taken Cypgap,

Paul.

Keith007


Joined: 12/07/2010
Posts: 17

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 16:51

I've been doing a bit of research -

Although we have a huge military advantage over the South in terms of numbers, we shouldn't be too complacent, especially given their latest acquisitions (mostly Russian equipment due to a US arms embargo). The South doesn't have an airforce (save for a few Russian choppers) but they intend to redress this imbalance by buying anti-aircraft systems (Sa-10s, according to the Jane's article i posted above) to counter the huge advantage of air superiority we have over the island.



The S300 were defensive in nature but given their long range capability, there was no way that Turkey would allow the South to lock onto and engage Turkish aircraft as soon as they took off from their bases in Turkey! Turkey was correct to threaten their destruction if the Greek cypriots deployed them on the island. Cyprus backed down, donated the s300 to Greece and are now stationed in Crete i believe, Cyprus has received anti-air sytems from Greek arsenal as replacements..

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 18:09

keith007:



S300's were a complete waste of money and are still to this day left rusting at the end of Crete - the Russians were clever, as by all accounts there were parts 'missing' and insufficient mobile rocket launcher vehicles to cope with much of an air invasion. They were diverted to Crete because Bulent Ecevit [who ordered the '74 intervention/invasion - call it what you like!] warned Clerides that if RoC tried to deploy these S300's on Cyprus they really would find out what an invasion is really like.



I was living near the Paphos International Airport at the time - there was earthoving machinery working day and night to dig out underground bunkers in readiness to house these missiles - the huge mound of earth and rocks fro the massive excavation is still evidence of this financial and military fiasco.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 18:11

Cont'd:



At that time, my wife and I had had enough - I closed my [underwater photography] diving business, the exchange rate left expats, and the few tourists there were, only 60p for the Cypriot £ - we returned to New Zealand.

Keith007


Joined: 12/07/2010
Posts: 17

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 19:17

Great insight about the s300 Tenakoutou. It's interesting to read that the s300 are in Crete but are in an non-operational state i.e. "rusting", lol.



I'm not sure how true this, it may be just a ruse by the Greeks. I read somewhere on an Israeli site that the Israeli's have held military exercises with Greece for a potential attack on Iran (the distance between Israel and Greece is approx. the same as the distance from Israel to Iran). The Israeli's practised engaging and/or evading Greek s300 anti-aircraft missiles (lock-ons, not actual missiles) so i don't know how true the "non-operational" status of these systems are in Greece.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 19:31

Operational or not, the GCs have too much to lose in a war against Turkey. They would never dare such a thing, unless they wish to lose the rest of the island.



Sleep easy, Russians have their money and there is no threat and my GC cousins down in the southern lands paid for for nothing, as per usual. They like taking rides, it's their favourate past time.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 20:25

Interesting as all this is the GC's would never face Turkey. They use lawyers and legal arguments and only send in heavies when the think no one is looking or no one will react. They were wrong the last time; can we be sure that they are not planning a re-run? The TRNC cannot agree to a solution without recognition, it would be madness.



Patientia est a donum superum

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 21:58

A nation can always become suicidal. Who can predict that?



If they have any sense they will not start anything because nobody will come to their aid and they know it.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 22:40

an information direct from the inside S 300 are fully Operational. and able to lock on any aircraft at a range 90km.

Jefferson


Joined: 17/05/2010
Posts: 360

Message Posted:
13/07/2010 22:55

How can the EU allow the south to buy any weapons when they would be using EU baleout money.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
14/07/2010 08:45

Ok, you want to talk about war, Turkey are buying tank buster helicopters. Always one-step ahead of the GC's.



Patientia est a donum superum

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/07/2010 10:31

re 11 you are SO right -if only ;(



I blame President 'Lie/ cry alotopulos'

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/07/2010 10:35

re 13



backed by NATO? .. That includes GR ;)



backed by America.. well Kissinger had certainly agreed with TR how much of Cyprus they would be allowed to 'take' - the CIA also encouraged the Greek Military junta to implement to coup



Naturally, most American depts ( incl. the US Ambassador for Cyprus) weren't told of this..:(

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/07/2010 10:43

Are the S300's operational *I*don't know.. I suspect they are...



If you visit north of Paphos you can see some HUGE dish antennae that might well be associated with the S300 project - which was handled VERY badly by Clerides,.



It is interesting to note that some posters think GCs are profligate with money ..



Their banks didn't crash ( remember 2000 ? )



Can we have some factual posting, please - not tribal 'bashing'

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
14/07/2010 14:43

msg 25

hey troodo first read the posts end then come here and then brandish your sword ready for war.

cardman


Joined: 13/05/2007
Posts: 27

Message Posted:
14/07/2010 17:17

Am I missing something here?



The link refers to: CYPRIOT ARMS BUILD-UP CONTINUES WITH T-80 BUY



Publication Title Jane's Defence Weekly

Publication date May 01, 1996

Keith007


Joined: 12/07/2010
Posts: 17

Message Posted:
14/07/2010 18:08

Sorry cardman, wrong link.

27 T-80Us and 14 T-80UKs were ordered in 1996 from Russia. The T-80Us were delivered in 1996 and the T-80UKs were delivered in 1997. In 1999, a planned order for 41 additional T-80U/UK type tanks was cancelled due to political sensitivities.

As of 2009, the Cyprus National Guard is to equip with a further 41 T-80U/UK type tanks from Russian suppliers, with a pre-agreement reportedly made for a further 41 tanks of the type. The deal was previously erroneously reported to consist of Russian T-90 tanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_vehicles_of_the_Cypriot_National_Guard

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
14/07/2010 18:25

Like I said before - if it happens then I will just keep my head down for 48 hours! By then it will all be over bar the shouting of "We want our land back" from one side or the other.



http://www.hri.org/docs/bmf/cyprus.html



http://www.hri.org/docs/bmf/turkey.html



Happy to be on the side of Turkey even if Greece is committed to protecting the RoC with:



http://www.hri.org/docs/bmf/greece.html



First, they have to get here and for sure Turkey would spot them coming!!!

cardman


Joined: 13/05/2007
Posts: 27

Message Posted:
14/07/2010 19:18

Thanks Keith007

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
14/07/2010 19:22

This was not a thread on going to war, it was about a second Akritas plan.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 07:56

If we go into a solution as a community we are dead.





Patientia est a donum superum

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 08:12

msg 34

where on earth you saw a new akritas plan ?

you post a link from 1996 for what reason?



msg 35

from where are the threats are coming and you are so down troodo be sure nobody will kill you or try it

you will dιe from old age.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 09:58

Hey, 'tracer' - last time the Turks made you mob of mongrels run - next time they'll make you swim!

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 17:37

The question was, is there a new akritas plan ?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 19:09

re 37



Tenakoutou



"last time the Turks made you mob of mongrels run - next time they'll make you swim!"



ACTUALLY, in two weeks - despite the fact that many units of the National Guard / GC civilians - initially allowed unopposed landings - they thought the British would stop it !.. the TR army only captured a corridor from Kyrenia to Nicosia..



Only the TR army got replacements and more ammo - 'part two' - after Turkey broke off the Zurich peace talks on 13th August and resume hostilities on the 14th was 'easier' as the GCs had 'b all' left to fight WITH....



'Mongrels' isn't even accurate.. It is possible there might have been a few too many cases of in-breeding amongst Cypriot communities..



Anyway.. back to the theme of the thread...

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 08:49

Anyway.. back to the theme of the thread...



That would be nice mm.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 08:59

6m's: As much as I appreciate your posts, when you post about '74, or indeed most of the Cyprus conflict, you are only quoting from the archives - so many which are viewed as controversial.



I realise it must be difficult not to 'run with the hare and hunt with the hounds'!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 10:25

Tenakoutou



I'd say the archives I'm quoting are lending to the accuracy of the discussion.. sadly, it happened so long ago that the archives are the best place to look !



Luckily, as you realise, I've been fortunate to be around folk who discussed this time..



Yes, I'm sometimes a 'devil advocate' - but this topic needed some balance..

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 11:10

6m's: 'Yes, I'm sometimes a 'devil advocate' - but this topic needed some balance..'



Possibly, you have read some of my past postings, in which you probably come to the conclusion that I, also, play 'devil's advocate' - and, surely, somebody must, as you rightly point out that not only this topic, but the whole 'CyProb', needs the injection of controversy to provide an equitable balance.



I've also heard arguments and experiences from both sides, having lived [mostly] in Cyprus for 28 years.



To get back 'on thread topic': a second 'Akritas Plan'; there can be no doubt that RoC is winning the 'propaganda war' - but for what purpose, or benefit to themselves that they don't already have?



After all, it is fairly widely known and accepted that as TRNC is the 'wart on the arse of Turkey', the EU and UN have become similarly 'afflicted' by the 'antics' of RoC!



What is your opinion?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 11:27

I think the GCs were 'winning' the 'propaganda war' as they had all the UN / ECHR judgements going 'their' way.. before that they were the majority and tended to have more members of their community who had made it BIG.



I don't think they are having it al their own way - esp. since April / May 2004



>>After all, it is fairly widely known and accepted that as TRNC is the 'wart on the arse of Turkey', the EU and UN have become similarly 'afflicted' by the 'antics' of RoC! <<



Ironically - despite everything - mostly in accord with that summary.. I tried to get GCs to realise back in 2004 that if they turned down the deal on the table that they would not only not GET a better one, but that they would lose support .