Yahoo News on Peace Talks

Notsoboredhw


Joined: 15/03/2007
Posts: 1254

Message Posted:
25/07/2008 21:42

Just saw this on peace talks within Cyprus - thought you might like to see what it says:-



"NICOSIA (Reuters) - Greek and Turkish Cypriots agreed on Friday to launch talks in September to re-unite their island, whose continuing division is damaging Turkey's chances of joining the EU.



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Cyprus' President Demetris Christofias, the Greek Cypriot leader, and Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Talat will start talks on September 3, ending a four-year impasse in efforts to bring the two communities together after decades of separation.



"The aim of the full-fledged negotiations is to find a mutually acceptable solution to the Cyprus problem which will safeguard the interests of Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots," said Taye-Brook Zerihoun, head of the U.N. mission on Cyprus.



He said any agreement would be put to separate, simultaneous referendums in both communities.



Peace talks collapsed in 2004 when Greek Cypriots voted in a referendum to reject a U.N. blueprint for reunification that Turkey-backed Turkish Cypriots had accepted.



The deal to start talks was welcomed by Britain, Turkey and the European Union, which the Greek Cypriots joined in 2004.



"A unified and integrated Cyprus would benefit not only Cypriots themselves but the whole of the European Union," said EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso.



The political climate has changed since February, when moderate Christofias replaced Tassos Papadopoulos, a hardliner who led Greek Cypriot rejection of the earlier plan.



Talat, like Christofias a leftist, faces parliamentary elections by 2009 in his northern breakaway state, which is recognised only by Turkey, and presidential elections in 2010.



His party now holds a majority in the legislature but there has been growing discontent at a worsening economic outlook, and charges from opposition parties that he could concede too much to the Greek Cypriots.



"STEP FORWARD"



"I think this is a step forward, it's a positive development," Christofias told reporters. "There is a lot we agree on, a lot we disagree on, it's all a matter of a constructive stance of the sides."



Divided in a 1974 Turkish invasion triggered by a brief Athens-inspired coup, Cyprus has frustrated a long list of mediators attempting to reunite the island's two communities.



Hugh Pope, senior analyst for the International Crisis Group based in Istanbul, said the Cyprus conflict could not be more complicated than that in Northern Ireland.



"I don't see any insuperable obstacles for reunification of the island, and it's very important to realise that the mainstream Turkish decision makers are in favour of a fair deal on Cyprus," he told Reuters.



Turkey and Britain, which are guarantor powers of Cypriot sovereignty under the 1960 independence treaties of the former British colony, welcomed the decision for talks. Turkey has some 30,000 troops in northern Cyprus, and Britain two strategic military bases in the south.



"Turkey has supported the process from the beginning. We wanted the atmosphere that emerged after 2004's referendum to change," said a Turkish Foreign Ministry official.



"But it is necessary to be cautious. It remains to be seen how much the expectations of the Turkish Cypriots will be met."



Britain's Minister for Europe Jim Murphy said: "We look forward to the start of negotiations which, despite the challenges ahead, offer a real opportunity to solve the Cyprus problem for this and future generations."



NATO member Turkey's hopes of joining the EU partly depend on progress over Cyprus, which is represented in Brussels by the Greek Cypriots."

Notsoboredhw


Joined: 15/03/2007
Posts: 1254

Message Posted:
25/07/2008 21:44

Sorry just realised there is a thread about this already under "September 3rd"

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
25/07/2008 23:33

And I will say the same.



OINK, OINK.



Flying pigs at 10 o'clock!!!!!

dirty harry


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 34

Message Posted:
25/07/2008 23:57

boredhousewife

European Union 'hopes' Turkey will become a member as it will benefit from what Turkey has to offer,therefore it should not depend on a bunch of bubble's

who still hope for ENOSIS with greece and the greek flag spread over the whole of the island.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
26/07/2008 00:24

dirty harry

when you say bubbles do you mean greeks ,as in bubble and squeak

this terminology is well said in and around our schools in north london

have you spent time there.

regards

musin

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
26/07/2008 00:56

france, austria and several other countries have repeated stated

they do not think turkey should be an eu member and will block it

unfortunately for the gc's therefore turkey cannot "buy it's way" to eu membership by selling out northern cyprus

needless to say, if turkey was an eu member, its votes added to those of britain would soon constitute a larger block than france plus germany's,

a convincing argument why france and germany would never permit it



another question is the hundred thousand mainland turks settled in cyprus,

now perhaps half the total population...

even christophias the moderate and the gc's as whole want them gone:

"just like that!" as tommy cooper would say, but you wonder-

why does it bother them that much? seems a bit sinister if you ask me



lastly I always thought that "enosis" or "union" with greece

is really a metaphor for ethnic cleansing and deportations,

remember former yugoslavia anyone?



andre

dirty harry


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 34

Message Posted:
26/07/2008 01:04

musin

I said bubbles because they are all short and plump like a bubble,but thanks for the terminology, sounds good BUBBLE AND SQUEAK GREEK.

Congratulations on your 'cyprus or britain' posting its HOT,just replyed myself

shalom.

dirty harry


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 34

Message Posted:
26/07/2008 02:05

andre

The name “France” comes from Latin Francia, which literally means “land of the Franks” or “Frankland”. it is derived from the Proto-Germanic word frankon.

Austria is officially known as Republik Österreich which is german, so we are looking at one big germany.The greeks fear mainland turks, like other animals in the jungle fear the lion.You are right in saying enosis is really a metaphor for ethnic cleansing,and just like former yugoslavia which is in the news since the capture of radovan karadzic, who Accused of leading the slaughter of thousands of Bosniaks and Croats,after nearly 13 years on the run,DID'NT HE DO WELL.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
26/07/2008 12:22

as ever great post andre



I wondered why Gul and Erdogan seemed so nonchalant in their eu statements last week (in the context of the cyprus issue). Of course, even if Turkey played ball in Cyprus this would cut no ice with France and some of the other countries.



It's very sinister andre the GC's wanting the Turks gone. In my world it doesn't show a healthy and inclusive mindset, not one that will endear them to the kings of the throne in the EU, however I do understand some of their resentment which has been allowed to build up and up and up for far too long. Problem is that the GC's think the troubles started in 74. To be fair I think Christofias has now said that he will allow some Settlers to stay.



Some of the older more mature GC's have subordinated their greek heritage to embrace their cypriot identity, however I am reminded that so many still see themselves as Greek first and foremost. In protest marches around the world, which are led by their professional political lobby, the flag that is flown is the Greek one.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 06:29

mark,



the self-defined identity of the community in the south is one thing

but in times of stress people cling on to clannish roots



so I have aways been puzzled about bland phrases like

"the settlers must leave the island"

"cyprus should be demilitarized"

"naturally people want to return to their homes"



these remarks are not particularly sensational in themselves

it is just that:

you are addressing a community that suffered

at the hands of your forbears

you can achieve the above if you get back to a situation

where you control all of the island

you are supposedly engaged in confidence-building measures



a peculiarity of the cyprus situation is that both sides

have excellent credentials to be seen as both agressors and victims

they each have their "separate history" as it were...



it would be very interesting to hear the views of any gc readers

about how the island can work around these different perceptions of reality



dirty harry,



I'm sure you agree your comments about french and german origins

are a bit of a red herring

the franks were a germanic tribe who became latinized

they were among the leaders of the earliest crusades

but most of the population of europe appears to be descended

from immigrants from the middle east who arrived

about a hundred thousand years ago, according to some geneticists

as regards different languages within the indo-european group,

ex-prime minister john major used to pronounce "want" as "wunt"

and it was quickly noticed that his colleagues were imitating this

therefore it has been inferred that among tribal populations,

the speech ideosyncracies of a respected elder becomes the norm

for everyone, as a precursor of accents, dialects and languages



andre

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 12:15

Hi andre



I have also noticed some of the language coming from Christofias. He has been useing phrases like 'we will fight for..........' . It suggests either' we will be king of the throne again - aggressor or 'we will put right that which has been wronged' - victim. Either way it is not conciliatory language.



Fascinating about Major with his wunts. Whats your background andre?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 12:19

ps that may not be the language that Christofias would want to choose, nor may it be the language he uses with Talat, but it seems that it is the language the GC's want to hear.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 14:04

christophias also said, (and an expectant hush falls),

something about "I will press strongly for the turkish army

to leave cyprus"



couldn't that remark just be a nod in the direction of gc public opinion?

maybe I've missed something but I didn't know

they had any plans to leave...

and I'm sure christophias appreciates that very well

oh yes he wunts them to leave and "so are they all honourable men"



he will have all and sundry snapping away at his ankles anyway,

and I'm not shedding crocodile tears for the guy but in any talks

you have to try to placate, if you cannot satisfy, critics at your back



a hundred thousand settlers from the mainland?

now ain't that just a dandy thing to give turkey a stronger reason

yet to support north cyprus?

which if "neutralised" would make things a whole lot simpler for the south?



looking back at news reports from 2004 there was said to be "fury"

from the un and europe over the south rejecting the 2004 annan plan

but somehow they have sloughed this off

and instead the world waits to see what extra gifts the north will offer



but now I will stop whining because:



firstly I am not a cypriot and it is a bit cheeky

secondly the gc's seem to have that skill down to a fine art:

my ears ache to hear from equally deserving displaced groups:

eg

the baltic germans

the serbs of the croatian craina province

the poles of lvov

turks thrown out of bulgaria

egyptians deported from libya

the french of algeria



I could go on

(and on and on and on and on)



andre

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 14:15

"a hundred thousand settlers from the mainland?

now ain't that just a dandy thing to give turkey a stronger reason yet to support north cyprus?

which if "neutralised" would make things a whole lot simpler for the south?"



Good point andre. Turkey doesn't want this 'hot potatoe', even though they cooked it.



"looking back at news reports from 2004 there was said to be "fury"

from the un and europe over the south rejecting the 2004 annan plan

but somehow they have sloughed this off

and instead the world waits to see what extra gifts the north will offer"



T

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 14:28

"a hundred thousand settlers from the mainland?

now ain't that just a dandy thing to give turkey a stronger reason yet to support north cyprus?

which if "neutralised" would make things a whole lot simpler for the south?"



Good point andre. Turkey doesn't want this 'hot potatoe', even though they cooked it.



"looking back at news reports from 2004 there was said to be "fury"

from the un and europe over the south rejecting the 2004 annan plan

but somehow they have sloughed this off

and instead the world waits to see what extra gifts the north will offer"



This is true but the GC's have been able to spin the situation through their professional PR team. It has not been possible to have an open debate on the cyprus issue.

Also the TC's and Turkey did not take advantage of this situation



"firstly I am not a cypriot and it is a bit cheeky"



yes, but we are embroiled in the situation, and will be impacted by any solution. We have been mutually invited in to the system (by the TC's not the GC's)



"my ears ache to hear from equally deserving displaced groups"



It is surprising the number of groups. I was watching a programme the other night about the Sudetenland people. Their are 3 million of them and they want to be compensated by Czech Republic for loss of home and property.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 19:54

I can't help but wonder if the negotiations are taking place between the wrong people.

Shouldn't the negotiations be taking place between Erdogan and Christofias. The really troubled relationship is between Turkey and the south of Cyprus. Only by chunking up to a bigger frame and creating a better relationship here, can negotiations then take place between Talat and Christofias.



Only Turkey and the south of Cyprus through the mediation of the EU can discuss and resolve such matters as:



*Military prescence

*Turkish settlers

*Airspace - direct flights

*EU membership

*Use of Turkish ports

etc

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 19:58

plus negotiating about water

Alasian


Joined: 11/08/2007
Posts: 70

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 21:10

ilovecyprus, a negotiation between Turkey and the illegal terrorist regime in Southern Cyprus has been the dream of GC leadership for the last 40 years.



This insultive negotiation is completely out of question.



The GC regime always tries to suggest that the problem is between Turkey and South Cyprus(which they call Cyprus and insult the TCs)



But the problem is between the GCs and the TCs and the solution will come from GCs and TCs, not from their mother/brother countries.



The Turks that are TRNC citizens are now under the protection of the TC Nation. We will not dump people that have put their trust into our nation and have lived here for more than 30 years.



They seem to have a good integration rate and most of the new generation TRNC citizens from Eastern Turkey do not wear head scarves or go to mosques even if they were Kurds or Arabs. Many even speak Cypriot, wear swim suit and drink alcohol. As long as they assimilate into our culture and dont try to islamize us, there is no problem.



So, this now, is not between GCs and Turkey but between one of the two main powers of Cyprus, the TCs and the other one the GCs.



No one can stay in South Cyprus without TC Nations consent after there is a solution. So the GCs will have to persuade us to allow Greek speaking Georgians, Kurdish terrorists, Sri Lankans and all others that they made citizen to stay, just as we will discuss the rights of our citizens from abroad.



Here is the passport the GCs gave to the leader of a Kurdish terrorist group in Turkey that has taken 40,000 lives.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6a/Cypruspassportofocalan.jpg



The really troubled relation is between the GC and TC nations not between Turkey and GCs. Turkey is merely the brother/mother(depending on one's views) nation of the TCs helping them in their struggle towards self governance and equal ownership of Cyprus. No more, no less.



The EU membership of Turkey as well can never be discussed between GCs and Turkey, as the Real Cyprus with the political equality of TCs, will either be neutral(TCs for/GCs against) or supportive(TCs and GCs for) for the Turkish EU membership and the illegal terrorist regime in Southern Cyprus which calls itself Republic of Cyprus will always be against.



The major obstacle for Turkey's EU membership is the power struggle between Anatolians/Western Turks and the Muslims that relate themselves more with Arabia rather than Anatolia.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 22:59

very interesting post alasian,

good to get some answers from people in the thick of it



mark, was "through the mediation of the eu" a misprint?

surely you meant "through the mediation of the un"



which brings us to a very unwelcome truth:

trnc publicity compares very badly with the pros in the south,

that we all know...

but it's by no means the main problem for the north,

in explaining itself properly on the international stage:

the so-called republic of cyprus is kicking against an open door!

not just gorden brown's ingratiating signature on the "memorandum"

but the south has a christian tradition in common with europe and the us,

don't underestimate this, especially in today's troubled world

it also has a very articulate lobby in the eu and usa

and (a very deep breath) many of them really did lose their property,

probably for ever



unfortunately the international community is not prepared to

acknowledge that they very much "brought it on themselves"!

not only the three hundred super-patriots behind the 1974 samson coup

but the masses who would happily go along with ethnic cleansing

or perhaps were too scared to speak out during the '63-'74 troubles



what I find quite incomprehensible is that they didn't appreciate they

had a tiger by the tail, you all know exactly what I mean...

it's like a lttle brother gets beaten up in the playground and the

big brother arrives at the school gates and "wants a word" with the bullies



do I over-simplify?



andre

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 23:07

Thanks Alsan for your substantive post.



Absolutely, the issue is between the TC's and GC's and ultimately you and the GC's will have to decide your future.



At some point Turkey and the GC's are going to have to improve their relationship within the broader context in which they operate.



If Talat decides that substantive troop reductions are needed to make the solution happen what will Turkey say? If Turkey says yes then no problem, but if Turkey says no then Turkey is a substantive player in the negotiations.



By the way Aslan, do you think Talat would agree to Turkish troops leaving the island? Do you think Turkey would agree?



ps I favour the TRNC being an independent state and have never said the Turkish settlers should leave (not that any of this is up to me or any other Brit for that matter. I just voice my opinion on this forum )

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 23:21

andre



you couldn,t of got it more right ,bang on mate well said i take off my hat to you

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 23:21

Hi andre



I think you made it comprehensibe. It's excatly how the world works. The top dog takes the lead, others follow. If some feel strong enough they will try and take down the top dog.

Turkey is a big dog and the GC's forgot they were a poodle. What the poodle has been able to do is to convince a large number of big dogs that they have been the sole victims in this sorry state of affairs.



I did say the EU. My proposition is widely ambitious. I feel that the EU, TRNC, ROC and Turkey all need to build a better relationship. Why involve the UN on a European issue.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
27/07/2008 23:29

Yeah, you are also right about the christian club andre. The ROC has the support of Russia on this count not just the US and Western Europe.



Turkey has been bold and fearless in fending these big dogs off.



As Musin says, you are top dog andre

Alasian


Joined: 11/08/2007
Posts: 70

Message Posted:
28/07/2008 01:18

ilovecyprus, thank you for the clarification and the reply.



Aslan is the turkish word for Lion, which is one of the main characters at chronicles of Narnia.



Alasia is the ancient Hittite(thus turkish) name of Cyprus. The Hittites controlled the island long before ancient greeks stepped over the island.



I strongly believe that having a Turkish Cypriot state as one of the players in the EU is far more important than keeping 10thousand more soldiers on the island.



For example, If there is a solution and Turkish becomes an official language of the EU, Imagine what this huge achievement would mean for the TCs and the Turks as the Turkish speaking people.



This would be official confirmation that the whole Anatolian people, would have one foot in EU.



The TC nation would achieve in a number of 200 thousand what could not have been achieved for 70 million.

-------



I do not think any TC president would dare accept Turkish troops living the island without a solution as the TCs would probably riot.



So, this is not a possibility.



If you are talking about a reduction in numbers, that is a strategic decision for the military.



Taking into account that there are over 100 thousand Greek Cypriots with military machine guns, combined with over 30 thousand active soldiers we would be much better of leaving the decision to the military if any reduction is possible.



If you are talking about Turkey accepting a reduction in the number of soldiers after a solution, I strongly believe that would not be a problem.



One of the major issues is to satisfy the righteous need for security of the Turkish Cypriots after what we experienced between 1963 and 74.



Turkey is of course a substantive player in the Cyprus problem. But not to the extent to impose us to surrender to GC demands. Even if our government was forced to surrender, this still would not be a workable win for the GC side.



Also, ROC and Turkey cannot have better relations because there is no such organisation as ROC.



Republic of Cyprus lived between 1960 and 1963, after which it became a terrorist regime controlled by GCs and GCs only.



There can be no ROC with Greek national anthem as its national anthem.



The GC leadership has numerous times rejected the TC leaderships plea to return to the government before 1974(see Klerides/Denktas letters, see The Memoirs of Dr. Ihsan Ali) on the basis that they could not "guarantee the security" of the TC politicians, clerks and other government officials safety.



---

Andre, you do not oversimplify. The bullies and the big brother perfectly fit with the case in Cyprus.



Also, I completely agree with how the major powers of the world are biased in favour of the GCs.



All the respect and love for our geography goes to the Greeks and the GCs.



All of the food that we eat, even when they have turkish names like Yogurt, Dolma, Cacik(Tzatziki), Imam Bayildi(Imam), BeyazPeynir(Feta),etc are all associated with the Greeks.



All the ancient successes of our region are associated with modern day greeks.



But, this is not just the fault of the West, but also a result of the struggle between islamists and westerners in Turkey.



Some are trying to make Istanbul look more like Rome,Paris,London and ancient Turkey and the next election the others come, that want to make the city look like Mekka, Medina or Tehran and remove the statues that the previous mayors have put in place.



Also, religion is a major problem. Maybe the suicide of a catholic priest is the first news an italian religious person hears about Turkey. This of course leads to bad feelings and bias towards the opposite side at Turks vs. Others situations.



But, if Turkey solves its internal struggle and comes into terms with its past, that is to say, the ancient anatolian, later hellenistic, later roman pagan religions; early christians,late

Alasian


Joined: 11/08/2007
Posts: 70

Message Posted:
28/07/2008 01:22

Clarification:Alasia is the ancient hittite name of Cyprus, and as Anatolian and Cypriot Turks are descendants of the anatolian/cypriot civilizations, the name is equally turkish to us. Some turkish cypriots as early as 1920s had Alasya as their surname. Not to be mistaken that cyprus is not KIBRIS in turkish which is our language today.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
28/07/2008 01:23

turkey was thought to be "finished" after its defeat

in the first world war, so greece sent in troops...



they occupied a swath of territory including smyrna (now izmir)

to cut a long story short, the turks rallied and threw them out

the resulting peace deal in 1923 meant a million greeks

had to leave their homes in turkey,

a process fully endorsed by the international community:



a country where their forbears had lived for thousands of years

so much suffering and all the result of ill-judged adventurism



sound familiar?