Todays court case part2

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 13:47

Unconfirmed reporrts are saying that Geoff has to re-appear on September the 20th.As i said,unconfirmed,

Paul.

ladylittle


Joined: 09/03/2008
Posts: 498

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 14:08

Heard the same thing too, I was there until 12 ish, but had to go. And the saga continues ....

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 14:16

Newlad, you are right the farce continues. Went to this so called court today, which is run by a bunch of kids; even the judge was no more than twenty-five. Geoff has to reappear in September and produce his defence - defence against what? Case was supposed to start at 9am at 10.30am Geoff made a ten second appearance then it was adjourned to find an interpreter, 12.20pm, with an interpreter who was in the court all along, Geoff was given the judges decision. God help us all and God help justice.

superted


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 14:22

Just got back after leaving Geoff and Mary. The possible outcomes of todays hearing were either the judge would throw the case out or she would decide she wanted to hear the defence, which has not yet been heard during the 47 previous appearances (inc today's). The later was the decision.



Now Geoff will get his time to give his side of the story with a stack of evidence that will prove that this is a load of tosh!!!



Bring on the 20th September as this time I shall dress to enter the court i.e in long trousers, closed shoes, covered shoulders etc etc as I cant wait to hear what Geoff has to say. I wouldn't want to be the judge when he pulls out his armory!!!



Good luck to you both, love you to bits



SuperTed, Clare and Savannah xxx

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 14:29

What an absolute nonsense,get this farce in the British National papers.Keep going Geoff,hopefuly justice will prevail,

Paul.

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 14:34

Get ITV on to it, they programmed the Oram's case, may do this one.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 14:38

Couldnt someone get it on you tube in Britain.Are cameras allowed in the court,

Paul.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 14:41

Geoff,



I am appauled. At least next time you can have your say.



Is there not possibly a wider message being sent here. The British are no longer welcome in The TRNC?



add to this the property issues "memorandums" No PTP on on Pre 74 Turkish land, together with NO ACTION to protect



British investors and ex pats, and it certainly makes you wonder.



Just my thoughts,.....thats all!



wynyardman

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 14:52

Wyn



'The British are no longer welcome in the TRNC'



I think you have hit the nail on the head.



There has been 47 court appearances ? That just about sums up the legal system? in the TRNC. Glad I am out of the place!

Sundance


Joined: 15/07/2010
Posts: 213

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 15:01

Geoff and Mary hello, Im just a new member to this forum, but have been following your case, for many months, I am going to plan my next visit to Cyprus to be there for the 20th Sept, good luck to you both.

zcacmxi


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 388

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 15:11

You say they are "no longer" welcome.



When was anybody ever welcome? I have never been aware of any incentives or encouragement from the government or other agency.



The laws have not changed, the people have not changed. It has always been the same in my opinion.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 15:38

This is case cannot even come under the term farce.

Having sat through a lot of the garbage for the last 6 months today just about summed up the whole case, if you want to take on someone in TRNC court, DO NOT EVEN TRY. There are words that I would like to use like but they are better left unsaid.



An even worse crime in my opinion is the lack of support today and at previous hearings. A lot of noise is made by people about good luck and we will be there etc but nobody turns up. One day it MAY BE YOU in court and just think you are on your own in a foriegn country not able to speak the language.



Over last couple of weeks there has been a lot of pontificating about protest etc, this was the ideal time to show solidarity in the community. TEN people sat in court is not solidarity!!! That is pitiful



Mary and Geoff are grateful for any support they get and do not seek masses but today summed up the total attitude of British people in TRNC, could not care less!

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 15:58

Has anyone attended from the British embassy here and what are they doing if anything..and are they even aware this is going on ? I would hope they were informed and are They giving some sort of input. Did Geoff and Mary ever get in contact with them at all ?





Spider,X

Ozbey


Joined: 04/03/2009
Posts: 304

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 16:05

There is no British Embassy here!

superted


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 16:19

Re msg 9, very true but to add salt to the wound, the 47 appearances to date were over the space of 2 years and more and have only been to hear the prosecution who have not been able challenge a single point of law. Lets see if Geoff gets his 47 appearances to have his say. I doubt it. But I know he could fill all 47 with indepth detail as to his innocence rather than the debarcle(sorry for spelling) of the prosecuters!



SuperTed

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 16:28

Troodo,

I guess there is always an age that everyone reaches when everyone else just becomes "A bunch of kids", no matter how qualified they might be or how young we may perceive them to be they will never be able to do things right - not how it was done "In our days" I can hear. We send our forces off to fight and die for us and most of them are only 21 but I guess they are no longer kids at that age. Perception is a wonderful thing, when you get older so it seems does perception!



As for the case being a farce, is that not what the whole case is about - finding out the truth and making the deceision on farce, fiction or fact?



Having read lots on this particular subject and asked questions that never get answered as they are deemed contentious I must admit that if this Judge is new to the case then in order to make an informed deceision she should hear the defence as well. Look at the defence lawyer costs and ask if it has been worth it or robbery?

kaiserphil


Joined: 14/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 16:31

Wyn, "Is there not possibly a wider message being sent here. The British are no longer welcome in The TRNC?

add to this the property issues "memorandums" No PTP on on Pre 74 Turkish land, together with NO ACTION to protect British investors and ex pats, and it certainly makes you wonder."

It certainly does Wyn. I used to put it down to nepotism, apathy and gross stupidity, but I have suspected a hidden agenda there for some time now.

A TC once told me they want the British to leave the country. I asked him where he thought their money would then come from. He said that Americans and Israelis would supersede us.

When I asked him which extremists would immediately follow in the heels of Americans and Israelis, he hadn't the faintest idea what I meant.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 16:41

msg 16,



Why would the judge be new to the case needing even more time? She has been there all the time I have been going.



Spider,



The British High Commision or embassy do not get involved with criminal cases. In fact there view is the do not interfere with the legal rights etc of another country. The follow up is why are the British interfering in Iraq, Afghanistan etc.



superted,



Geoff jokingly said it would be good to get to 50 appearnces. As has been said, if he is allowed as much time as the prosecution he should make 100!!!!!

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 16:55

Cyprushome, do I take it then that this current Judge has been there for the full 47 hearings and that you have attened all of them? I was under the impression that she was quite new to this case having only been moved into this area at the early part of this year. Happy to be wrong about that as it gives more information.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 17:02

Wadddo, were you there?

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 17:12

Troodo - No.



Your next question will be why!



Because I have no intention of attending any court case in support of a defendent unless I have all of the facts set out before me. I am not a kid and not young either, I have a set of ethics and a code of conduct that I live by and providing public support without full knowledge of an entire subject is not a viable option for me.



I will lend support to anyone that I feel requires it due to injustice, accident or stupidity (not saying that any apply in this case) but will never go protesting or waving flags and banners or attempting to change the manner in which the country - in which I am a guest - chooses to run its business.



I suppose it comes down to this - I made the choice to come here and live, I did as much homework as I could, I have to live with my deceision or leave. I choose to stay - warts and all - by this choice I must therefore support the country and system which has accepted me and live by its deceisions.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 17:28

I'd love to publish the full story on North Cyprus Free Press, exactly as the court will be given it as evidence

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 17:32

Waddo.



On that basis, I guess you won't support anything - good excuse.

matula


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 647

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 17:46

JESUS WEPT! What a ????????g carry on. I look forward to the day when I am back in civilisation!

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 17:49

Troodo,



Guess you missed this bit "by this choice I must therefore support the country and system which has accepted me and live by its deceisions". Read into it whatever you wish and form your own conclusions. I am not giving you an excuse for failing - in your eyes - to support a thing, that to a large number of C44 readers is simple hearsay and conjecture!



If I start a new thread asking for the support of Gary Robb whose only crime (in Cyprus) was that he was missunderstood by all of his purchasers and the TRNC government and that he was a really nice guy after all who meant well and is now the brunt of accusations of theft and illegal practise? Would you then lend your support to that or would you want to know all details first.?

Malsanck,

That would be a wonderful thing to be able to do. Would you also publish both sides of the problem to allow for people to make up their own minds as well?



By the way - these postings also keep this subject alive

IloveKKTC


Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 17:54

Is this the case where a load paint got nicked and was found in their shed?

gazmufc78


Joined: 03/09/2009
Posts: 366

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 17:58

waddo, It is an easy option to have your head up your a***se. Hope you never run foul of the pathetic judiciary system in this racist country.The law here is in favour of Tc's and no body else. you look at all the problems and unless you are a TC you have no recourse what soever in the legal system.you have a president that sats that there is no predudise on foreigners buyiny Turkish title deed land and yet it is denied under the guise of the army have objected which in most cases is Bull ***t.

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 18:12

gazmufc78,



You live here! You did your homework before you came! It was your choice, nobody forced your arm up your back to leave another country - you came for your dream. Either live it or leave but don't blame a system you should have known about before you came here.



Ask yourself how a TC would fare in the GC courts or in Germany or anywhere else (UK aside as everyone there has the same rights provided they are not British to start with) in the world where Turkish is not the native language.



Give us a break and stop blaming the system, the country, the people, the army that keeps you safe as well as the TC and anything else you can dream up.



Stop trying to turn another country into another type of UK - live here with the system or make up your mind you do not agree with it - and leave - simple.

matula


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 647

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 18:30

Waddo, We all came here with open eyes but none of us expected the degree of corruption that exists here in the legal/building/government sectors. If we were not involved it would be a joke. I have lived for many years in 3rd world african countries but believe me they could learn a lot from this shower of monkeys!

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 18:44

Matula,

What can I say? The legal system here is based on the British legal system - its just that they have managed to screw it around even more than the UK has. The government is like any other but it keeps getting found out more - because it has not learnt how to be cunning enough to blame every other bugger like the rest can do.



I have sympathy for all who are involved in any legal battle which involves this system and government but I can not find it in me to raise the flag and protest when it is not my country. I protest against paying UK income tax because I no longer live there - it is nothing short of legal theft on behalf of the government - but I do it on my own as it only effects me.



Whatever I say on here will be wrong - there is no right in this thread, you are either for the defendent and turn up to show your solidarity - or you are wrong to question the case in any way.



Now that is democracy in action!

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 19:02

waddo, I wrote: "I'd love to publish the full story on North Cyprus Free Press, exactly as the court will be given it as evidence" so I'm a little confused about why you wrote, "would you also publish both sides of the problem to allow for people to make up their own minds as well?

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 19:11

waddo you have it all wrong.



We do not go to the court because we know Geoff is innocent. We go to stand by a couple caught up in a legal system that few really understand, plus with the language issues it is always difficult to comprehend what is happening. I am sure from your comments you will stand in court on your own if you are accused of an offence you may or may not have committed. Good for you. This couple are at the end of their rope after 4 (FOUR) years of fighting their builder and his issues and appreciate any support they are offered..



As for court appearances some of the earlier procedural issues were dealt with by another judge. The trial itself has been conducted in full by the same judge.

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 20:34

For clarification, what exactly are the charges against this ex pat couple? for it to be going on for so long it must be very involved and complicated.

Jetski


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 584

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 21:34

and after all this time - how is their Turkish?

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 21:37

Quarmby details here - http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com/2010/07/15/over-47-north-cyprus-court-appearances-to-decide-on-can-of-paint-theft/



I couldn't paint a better picture if i tried )

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 21:52

I can understand all the frustration and certainly I do not condone the numerous unnecessarry postponements. A simple case like this with a handful of witnesses from both sides should reach a verdict within five or six appearences. This is something I always complain about. Unfortunately the courts often postpone a case a few times in order to "blackmail" the accused into submission and in some cases you get postponements to give time to the sides to reach a compromise like the prosecution withdraws some charges and the accused pleads guilty to the remainder. However, if there is no possibility of a compromise the case should proceed swiftly.

Having said all that above, I find the accusations of bias against the expats unfounded and unjustified. It will be a sad day for any country if court verdicts are influenced by mob action rather than based on the evidence and I say the whole evidence before the court. It is not nice to refer to the young age of a judge and imply insufficiency. I find the younger generation of judges in TRNC as more hardworking, knowledgeable and willing to learn compared to their elders.

ismet

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 22:34

The Mikado Gilbert & Sullivan "let the punishment fit the crime"

How many years have the couple had their freedom curtailed for a tin of paint they are unable to see their family in the UK passports held

It is totally disproportionate to the crime

Sorry Ismet if you were detained in the UK for that period albeit in your own property in the UK unable to visit your family in the TRNC I am sure that Sammi Chacrabatti(wrong spelling)

would have you out and free to return for the case at a suitable time

Its not as if they do not have financial roots here .

Yes in the UK there are pre-court and remand hearings but when the case starts the case starts and runs not this farce

I agree with you age in the judiciary is not a problem But the speed and process brings the courts into disrespect IMHO and whatever we say will not alter this one jot

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 22:40

What was this place called?



'The Jewel in the Mediterranean' perhaps more appropriate to call it the 'Handcuffs in the Meditteranean'



The place is becoming the laughing stock.

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 22:53

Quarmby - I have to agree. When we first started visiting the TRNC 20+ years ago, it was truly a gem.



We have a holiday home there and have had for several years. I can't wait to sell it (God knows how long it will take). I feel very, very sad and, perhaps wrongly, nostalgic for the way it was. Still, maybe that's 'progress' - it has indeed got a lot to answer for



As they say "money is the root of all evil".



Regards.



Jean

billyboy1


Joined: 01/06/2009
Posts: 590

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 23:08

message 27



" racist country.



The law here is in favour of Tc's and no body else.



you look at all the problems and unless you are a TC you have no recourse what soever in the legal system."



..............



Totally unfair comments,

I am a TC and have been dragged thru the courts for no reason and had to prove my innocence....the first thing i knew that i was being taken to court was when I went on a visit to the Uk with my husband and young son and was stopped at the airport.....they had to fly without me whilst i was taken to court that afternoon....actually took me 2 years of visits backwards and forwards between the 2 countries to get it sorted..



lets also remember cyprus is a small country and also a small community, so the bad is always told quicker than the good...



I truly feel sorry for anyone that has been done wrong by, whether, by builder, solicitor, estate agent, courts or even your takeaway kebab.....



good luck to all with their problems

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
15/07/2010 23:10

Malsancak, sincere appologies, I missread your post. I too would welcome the same things.



Cyprusishome, I do understand why you would wish to do this "Standing by" thing in court. I simply say that it is not something that I can do and would not wish to do. I would gladly accept the help from my relatives and if they wanted to do so then fine. But I would not wish to embroil others in this action as I can not see what good it would do for the no TRNC residents as a whole - apart from to alienate them from the TRNC itself.



Ismet, totaly agree with you.



Personal comment: This like many other countries is in part corrupt. We all know it to be true. If you are happy to go the short route by the "Bunging of the Wedge" then that is the way the country runs. UK runs the same way so I can not complain about it. Traffic violations can be bought off on the spot in any country. The difference here is that it is "In your Face" all the time.

Ramus


Joined: 09/07/2010
Posts: 2

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 06:13

My sympathy and morale support to Geoff and Mary as the face a system fraught with all the ills of pretenciousness.



These little people pretend to be big giving themselves grand titles Lawyers, judicial systems etc, etc but without the root requirement of basic human decency these colourful claims amounts to nothing.

I believe that either the administrators of the judicial system are inadequately trained/ experienced or they deliberately contribute to a failing system.



Whatever the rights and wrongs of this case are it is clear that the people empowered to deliver justice are not managing it very well at all.



Is it a case for them to go back to school, learn decency or just get of positions that they are not qualified to handle.



For those of you sitting on fences you are not helping by burrying heads in sand. Be outspoken and aim to improve matters for all TCs, Brits, Turks, whoever. We are all human let not money, I am alright and greed take away our sense of fairness.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 07:07

waddo

Just been reading through your postings on this thread and I agree 100% with everything you have posted.

AJ

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 08:40

What I find extraordinary about the system of justice here is that in order to obtain justice you have to appear in court at least 47 times, with all the costs involved. According to Article 6 of The Human Rights Act 1998, the Mays are innocent and yet for 4 years the courts have allowed their accuser to blacken their name through these repeated court appearances. A counter claim for defamation of character would have been/will be the obvious course for the Mays and my feeling is that they could well have more evidence to obtain a conviction than their accusers. When I was accused of the defamation of the legal profession by star rating the service given by advocates here, there was a suggestion they would put a £200,000 "hold" on my house so that I couldn't sell it during the period of the case. Guess what? I stopped star rating advocates.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 08:47

Waddo seems to think age and experience are not important, that we send 18 year olds to war - he is right, but we do not put them in charge.

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 09:26

Troodo seems to think it is always about youth and inexperiance as he sees it. He agrees with me that we send 18 year olds to war and he is right. He says we do not put them in charge and he is right. None of this has anything to do with the current thread but as a short reply perhaps - as he appears to have critisized the age of the Judge at 25 - he would like to read this extract from the Guardian:



"The average age of British casualties is 22. Two hundred soldiers have been killed in their twenties and 31 teenagers are among the death toll.



Twenty-six of the 299 British casualties are officer class and one female soldier has died."



Average age 22! 26 of them are officer class - make no mistake here Troodo - the officer class would have been in charge. The latest deaths include a Major at 34 and a Lt at 26 - Young and in charge! People who have the physical lives of others in their hands on a minute by minute basis. Enough said on the age subject please.

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 10:53

message 36

Elko



Unfortunately there is a feeling of bias against expats at the moment rightly or wrongly.

Most of the off plan purchasing of properties has been by expats the majortiy who did their homework! But due to the lack of information or should I say information that was withheld by estate agents and advocates

many of us have found ourselves in a position that we have or could loose everything we have worked hard for to simply try and enjoy retirement etc.



You say it will be a sad day for any country when court verdicts are influenced by mob action. I hardly call it mob action more of a moral support for a couple who have to go through this farcical legal process.

And before anyone jumps on my back and say we have to abide by the laws of a country we have decided to live in does it mean we have to standby and accept everthing that is wrong.



North cyprus isnt a third world country the powers to be and the advocates are all highly trained and educated people many

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 11:18

This case is also about property. The Day's refused to pay their builder for work unfinished, then lo and behold he suddenly charged them with theft of goods left on the site. Had he fulfilled his contract these goods would have surely have been removed during snagging. It must be obvious to any grown up that this is a malicious act on the part of the builder. But 47 months later the farce goes on and the Day’s still have no passport and cannot leave the island. That Waddo, is why I give them my support and so should you.

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 11:39

continuation message 47



many of them have trained in the Uk. Geoff and mary bought a property and that is where the saga begins. Im not going to comment on the legalities apart from its not to influence any judgement but to support a couple and it could be anyone of us. Yes it can happen anywhere in the south dubai etc but we dont live there we live in north cyprus and want it to be supported but how educated people in the government cannot see it is beyond belief.



If anythting can be done nto take away peoples fears then surely we should do and get this country recognised for the right reasons.

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 11:42

Troodo, Calm a little, its hot outside. I do give them my support but like most people who are unaware of the whole case and all of its ramifications - I can only support them here on this board. I find that the more I ask then the more I know but it is an uphill struggle just to get an answer as when a question is asked it is dealt with as an attack!

Why? If there is nothing to hide - and I repeat that I am not saying either side is right or wrong - then simple answers to simple questions could make the difference between support for the case and people seeing it as being just another case of "Winging Brit Syndrome". So, was this case started by The Day's over unfinished building work or by the builder over alleged theft? Whichever it is, to drag it on for nearly four years is totaly unacceptable and must have provided there solicitor with lots new things!!! Maybe we are looking at the court being at fault when we should look at who has made the money out of 47 months???

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 11:44

Troodo/Msg 48: 'But 47 months later the farce goes on and the Day’s still have no passport and cannot leave the island.'



This is such a gross violation of 'Human Rights' that I'm flabbergasted that the UN have not intervened.



I know the British High Commission is absolutely useless - had experience of that myself and heard of countless other Brits being let down by BHC.



Ther are mainly two, I would have thought 'salient' points in this case, which I cannot recollect as ever having been mentioned:



What is the total value of the items [allegedly] 'stolen'?



To steal something means to 'permanently deprive with intent' - so, if these items were locked up in a shed, logically for safekeeping, they have not been removed from the property, to which the builder, presumably, is the owner until the kocan is transferred to the buyer.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 11:47

Cont'd:



If these items were so urgently required by the builder, why did he not simply ask for them - or, if unable to contact the buyer, simply break into the shed to gain access to them.



How can someone steal something if they are not even in the country - this baffles me completely?

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 12:15

You have it in one Tenakoutou. I do not think the value is more than 100ytl, but the Day's could comfirm this.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 12:41

Tenakoutou Message 51,



Definition of theft.....".to permanently deprive the owner thereof".



YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.....If the goods never left the site it cannot be theft. If the ownership of the site has not been



transferred, then it makes the case for the defence even stronger. Is not the building and EVERYTHING ON THE SITE



the property of the Kochan holder? THEFT CANNOT BE PROVEN.



wynyardman

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 12:45

Lets be straightforward on this, as it's plainly obvious, this allegation of 'theft' by the builder (could) be regarded as a simple yet malicious act of spite against the Days for daring to stand up to the builder for failing to complete the contract. The builder (probably) knows full well there was no theft. A (possible) case of 'malicious prosecution' under UK law. It's another (possible) example of poor legal procedures in the TRNC where police lack any authority and discretion over prosecutions policy. They simply 'investigate' and charge anyone remotely involved without reference to a prosecuting authority or advocates such as the CPS in the UK. They don't even decide whether there has been a crime it seems. Their investigations lack basic skills, for example where witnesses have been initially spoken to, then disappear or refuse to make a written statement, yet a prosecution still goes ahead. The case is then dealt with by a prosecutor who also lacks any authority to discontinue.

DeaconB


Joined: 13/07/2010
Posts: 120

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 12:54

The builder would be wearing the paint in a civilised country.

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 13:13

The way i see it,is its not about the paint.Its the builders taking the Days to court for monies owed..and once that is paid up the builder still owns the property paint and all... ) How ever much is this fiasco costing ?







Spider,X

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 13:19

Based on what has been aired in previous postings most seem to believe a total absence of mens rea and actus reus if the paint remains in the tins, on site, and not disposed of for gain. Is it not also reasonable to believe that if the contract involved staged repayments any goods on site were already paid for by the defendants. Hopefully the truth will ultimately prevail but the magnitude and duration of the court process to date is beyond belief.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 13:26

Hopefully the truth will ultimately prevail but the magnitude and duration of the court process to date is beyond belief.





Dress them differently and you have The Mad Hatter's Tea Party.

superted


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 13:40

The cadse of 'theft' has been dagged on and on with this case. The items - a few nearly empty tubs of paint, a few lenghts of wood and some tools were 'stolen' by Geoff??? Geoff has actually offered to pay the builder for the nearly empty tubs of paint, as I believe (not 100% sure) that he did use this left over paint to continue with the painting of his house as the builder refused to do so.



The builder and judge have made an offer to Geoff and Mary whereby if he pays the outstanding balance to the builder then the case would be dropped.The problem here is that it has been stated that if he did so, Geoff and Mary would have to pay out again to get the work completed. How is this a fair ruling???????



The whole thing is ridiculous, the items that were 'stolen' never left the property so therefore as mentioned is msg 52 they have not been stolen, just left behind by the builder. 1 would pressume they were left in order for them to finish the job they have been paid for!!

superted


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 13:43

On another point, the builder has accused Geoff of stealing a mastik gun. He was unable to identify it clearly in court and his response was that the gun could not possibloy be Geoffs as it is a proffesional mastik gun and Geoff is not a proffesional, so it must belong to the builder!!! I know Geoff may not be a proffesional but I also know that if he purchases a piece of equipment, he will always buy the best!



Total Nonsense!!!!!!!!



SuperTed

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 13:45

Its also called blackmail. What a great advertisement for trusting any builders and developers in the TRNC.



Oops! there I go again using words like 'trust' in a Cyprus context....

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 13:47

The builder and judge have made an offer to Geoff and Mary whereby if he pays the outstanding balance to the builder then the case would be dropped.



I did not know this. So, it is blackmail with the courts backing. Is the young judge related to the builder or just naive perhaps?

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 14:02

troodo,



yes, this was one of the reasons for extrme dragging on. The judge was actually wanting to trade off a civil action against the criminal action. Which ever the Days lost!! They paid the builder his "final payment" then they would have to pay someone to finish the house and repair all the poor work gone before. Then still no guarantee of getting kocan of course. By paying the final payment the builder would allegedly have dropped the criminal case and instuct the judge accordingly.



Yes, it may have been an easier option but thanks to Geoff and Mary the crooked system being operated by builders is now being dragged into an open and public forum. Unlike the builders evidence which for reasons we can only guess he was allowed to give it in closed court. Even if found guilty the builders of TRNC are dragged even further into the mire of their own making.

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 14:10

Troodo, I like the sentiment. Did the Mad Hatter's tea party finish before Dinner time on the day or was it reconvened a further 46 times ? Imagine the frustration and unfairness of buying another 46 editions and still no end to the story.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 14:19

deputydawg.



It depended whether the dormouse, in this case the judge, woke up.

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 14:40

How does the builder, who in this case, is not a claimant in a civil action, but a witness in a criminal trial manage to liaise with a judge for a proposed settlement ? Surely a witness has no capacity to halt a criminal trial to gain benefit ? Either there was a theft to be punished or there was no theft.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 14:44

The builder made the original complaint of theft after he made the civil action for none payment of "final payment".



As the instigator of the criminal action, from the way we have had it portrayed, he is the only one that can withdraw the criminal case. That is why they were in conjunction with the "soliciotrs" try to get the civel action settled, in builders favour of course, then he would withdraw his criminal complaint.



I suppose no different to anywhere else in trying to deal but this deal is just crooked.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 15:00

cyprusishome/Msg64: ' The judge was actually wanting to trade off a civil action against the criminal action. Which ever the Days lost!! They paid the builder his "final payment" then they would have to pay someone to finish the house and repair all the poor work gone before.'



If this is the case, should not the judge, initially, have ordered a survey of the house to verify Geoff's claim(s) of shoddy workmanship, work not completed to justifiably warrant final payment to the builder?



Surely, if the 'Contract of Sale' has been breached by either party, it should be professionally decided, without further delay, with precisely whom the onus of blame lies?



The ridiculous charge of 'theft' should, surely, be set aside and regarded as a 'red herring', fuelled by 'ulterior motive(s)' - even by the most inexperienced and inept judiciary?

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 15:18

msg 69



Exactly what we have all said. When this trade off was offered we were there that day and talk about being gob smacked!!



The fact that the judge who will hear the civil case has even allowed the case to go forward leaves things incredulous. Suing for final payment for a home that is not finished!!!!! A five year old can see what is going on and none of it is to do with anything legal.



To Elko

I apolgise if I sound xenophobic, I am aware that Cypriots are being "screwed" exactly the same by TC and Turkish builders. However hearing all I have over last 6 months it sounds like bias. My views have turned a full 180 degrees about living here in recent months because it appears nobody cares about making right all the wrongs made by the governments and building industry.



Personally all I want to see is justice and to get water and electric mains to our home. Not a lot to ask surely??

littleme


Joined: 04/07/2009
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 16:19

Many thanks to all who turned up yesterday to support us I must say that it truly helps to make sense of all that is happening when you have people around you to help regain your sanity, you question yourself constantly in disbelief & to have others to talk things over with helps. To be able to let out your frustration verbally amongst others who have heard the same as you have means that you do not take it home & can deal with it much easier. After years of torture & torment there is only so much that 2 people can deal with & to share it with others takes not only the mental but also the emotional side of it away even if only for a moment. IT HELPS. Mary & Geoff

We are in the process of laying out the facts for you all to see to help clear things up. Geoff is organising the public viewing of what paperwork we have available to us on the case as well as listing out the chain of events to date. Unfortunately its size makes it impossible to do this on cyprus44

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 17:14

littleme:



Only a suggestion - I don't mean to interfere - but how about arranging the 'showing' you suggest with support from HBPG at the 'Pia Bella'?



That venue would be both central and convenient for most people.



I guess you would have to check with your advocate (name known to many, but deliberately not mentioned!) that such a method of publicising the facts would not be prejudicial to your case at this, what appears to be, the *'halfway' stage. * I don't mean 'halfway' to infer the number of court appearances to be yet, hopefully, NOT endured!



I know I speak for all your supporters when I wish for this farcical (if it was'nt so serious) nightmare to be 'nipped in the bud' ASAP at the first 'defence hearıng'.

Sundance


Joined: 15/07/2010
Posts: 213

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 17:49

If Geoff and Mary get the wrong verdict with this case, it could be the last nail in the coffin for me, and there has been a few before already, do i realy want to retire here I am beginning to wonder, I have two years until I retire, could be eniough time to move on before then, this is not justice its a fiasco at Geoff and Mary expense.

Geoff and Mary i wish you both all the very best,



Sundance

littleme


Joined: 04/07/2009
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 18:16

Many thanks for all your kind comments & suggestions

We are looking into the best way to publish this saga to make it easily available, we would also like to enforce that we are happy to do so because if you are innocent then you do not hide.

Yes it would have been easier to pay off the builder & see an end to it but we live by our principles



Geoff & Mary

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 18:26

littleme, "Yes it would have been easier to pay off the builder & see an end to it but we live by our principles "

I've nothing else to say except to repeat that excellent comment so that perhaps someone out there could benefit from it

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 18:29

Well done Geoff & Mary. I admire your stand. I'm sure your case has and will cause many thinking of making North Cyprus their home to think again. I was a frequent visitor and considered spending longer but have cut right back and am now almost afraid to visit even though I've done nothing wrong nor do I intend to. Trouble is that seems no barrier to being accused of something ridiculous and ending up trapped in NC and worse, jail.

littleme


Joined: 04/07/2009
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 18:29

Part 1

Please understand that we can only publish at this point facts that have already been brought out in an open court. This is but a few.

A few facts

1. 07/02/08 Ahmet Recaioglu cut off our temporary electric supply & demanded final payment

2. 07/03/08 we registered our complaint to the Prime Ministry Property Complaints Office

3. 03/03/08 we made payment to Kibtek for electricity connection & made contract with them for supply, no problems connection would be made within days.

4. 14/04/08 two cheques made payable to Reciaoglu Ltd one as an incentive to return to the property & complete work a second cheque payable when work was completed (Both cheques to be held by the Prime Ministry Property Complaints Office)

5. Some time after 03/03/08 Ahmet Recaioglu put a letter into Kibtek stopping us gaining electricity supply

littleme


Joined: 04/07/2009
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 18:30

Part 2

6. Our contract clearly states no further monies to be paid other than those entered in the contract.

7. Builder demanded extra money for electric connection (we refused)

8. End of May 08 we finally won the battle & Kibtek supplied electricity connection. (Builder unaware of this)

9. 28/05/08 meeting with Ahmet Recaioglu his solicitor & us in our solicitors office all parties agreed that the Chamber of Architect & Engineers to carry out survey to property, drawings to be furnished by Ahmet Recaioglu

10. 02/06/08 We went to UK for 3 months for birth of grandchild securing property, putting garden furniture inside house along with 2 tubs of paint being put into shed with all other painting tools ect. One pack of wood belonging to builder put on outside balcony upstairs for safety as well as being accessible.

littleme


Joined: 04/07/2009
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 18:30

Part 3

11. 31/08/08 we return to Ercan airport & was arrested. We had been accused of theft going back to two years prior by Recia Recaioglu the builder’s brother who owns no shares nor any part of the company (I assume that this was to hide the name of Ahmet Recaioglu being involved in the case) The complaint was made to the police on 20/08/08 in our absence. (The reason given under oath in court by Ahmet Recaioglu for the delay of two years in reporting the alleged theft was that he had been very busy)

This was only the start

Marvo


Joined: 30/04/2007
Posts: 194

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 18:32

I admire you for living by your principles, but with nearly 50 court appearances has any one given a thought to what the final legal fees may be.

littleme


Joined: 04/07/2009
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 19:01

re: message 68

(That is why they were in conjunction with the "solicitors" try to get the civil action settled, in builders favour of course, then he would withdraw his criminal complaint.)



YES FACT David is right

On the judges suggestion/recommendation a meeting with all parties took place to try & reach a settlement in the civil matter & try to avoid the process of going to court over the criminal allegations

No settlement was agreed

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 20:22

A quick question for littleme.



Does the same judge do the civil case?

littleme


Joined: 04/07/2009
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 23:53

As we understand it is not the same judge. The civil case which we instigated is ongoing & as yet have not been present with our solicitor in the civil court.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
17/07/2010 00:12

Criminal cases are dealt with at two levels: Serious cases go to the Assizes Court composed of three judges, the lesser casses are dealt by a junior judge sitting alone. Normally the junior judge for criminal cases is a newly appointed one and deals only with criminal cases in that year which runs from September to end of June. Criminal cases may have seriouys implications to parties involved but they are less complex in legal matters. The judges normally change position and even district after the summer vacation.

The civil cases are dealt with judges depending on the size of the subject matter. Up to a certain value cases are dealt with by a junior judge, higher ones by a more experienced one and the highest ones by the president of the district court.

Once a judge begins to "hear" a case, he/she has to see it through even if he/she jumps to a higher level or gets appointed to a different district. On very rare occasions if a judge retires or is unable to finish a case, the new judge has to start from the beginning and listen to all the wittnesses again. They try to avoid this situation as far as possible.

ismet